This will be my last posting. Last night my husband and I had a fight, I was told to "SHUT UP" or "GET OUT". Since I do love my husband very much, I will try to follow his directions. He IS a man of integrity, I love him very much.

No, I was not trying to "delete" some of what you had said, I was just trying to shorten all of this. I am sorry if you felt that way.

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As I stated, we (I) "thought" he was signing an agreement to not disclose any information he might gain about other people, and we both agreed that was a good thing.

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This sounds like an excuse to me. The agreement didn't detail that "some" things were to be non-disclosed. It detailed that nothing was to be disclosed. No exceptions, no exclusions. It's unreasonable to think otherwise... If it states A, it doesn't mean B.

Please read some of my first postings. I explain what happened and how. I was not even aware that he had gone to a meeting in regards to this group. My husband tells me he had told me. But I have no memory of this. I am sorry, but he will continually use the excuse with me "I forgot", and that "irks" "pisses" me off. He did not give me a chance to read any of the paper work. As I was working with my children he put a paper in front of me and said "sign here". As I was busy and generally trust my husband I did, without even paying much attention.

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Do you have a degree in counseling, psychology, or a mental health related field? I *studied* psycholgy in college, but I don't consider myself professional. I'm not trying to insult you, but if you have a degree or make a living in psyc, I think that's different.

I did not finish my degree as finances did not allow. I did spend three years in the study of this field and have spent many years working in counseling. I did not just take a course here and there. It was my field of study.

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I'm missing it then. He didn't promise to not keep any secrets? What are you calling him out on then?

The fact that now I find out, that he broke his promise to me many times and tells me "he forgot" that he made that agreement with me. The fact that he took two letters that I wrote to him about my feelings to this group and did not disclose or ask if that was "ok" with me. The fact that I have been expected to keep "my issues" to myself, and he is "allowed" to talk to whomever he wishes since "he forgot" his promise to me.

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I think you're upset - correct me here - that you think he violated your agreement by talking about his relationship with you. What does this have to do with you being upset that he won't tell you want went on that weekend? He may or may not have talked about you - most of the work that I saw done was *not* about the spouse.. With some exceptions of course... But he's not out of integrity with you just because he won't disclose the weekend procedure, especially if he never promised such non-disclosure.

Sure, I guess, for me, with the way our relationship is, and the former promises we had made to each other I trusted him. I did not understand that he "forgot" his promises to me (which I also made to him out of HIS request). Again, I did not ask for "explicit" details. But the question's I would ask he would just "grin" at me and say "I can't talk about that"......

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A promise to keep your issues between you, correct?

Yes.

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ginah
We "thought" this was something that would help him with his grief over his dad's death and following depression. We felt that something positive for him was worth the money......

And it probably didn't impact your ability to buy the children clothes?

Buying "clothing" was an example. Yes, it has impacted us. We are already behind on every bill except the house payment. Every month we get cutoff notices and phone calls for everything and we pay the past due so that does not happen.

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I checked guidestar. Obviously you're just repeating what someone else told you, as if you had [b:35b45cedea]CHECKED[/b:35b45cedea], like you're suggesting, you'd know that guildestar charges $300 to look at the detailed information. All guidestar shows a non-paying user is that they have records on MKP.

I do not understand that, I was able to sign on without them charging me anything and get the information. [www.guidestar.org]
This is just one, every state also has it's own. And you are correct, tax records are not everything.

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Some of it is hard to read, but if they've got 2M in income, that's impressive. It doesn't mean that it's going into the pockets of men and all I ask is that you're specific and FACTUAL about what you're saying in regard to where the money is going. People say that people at the top of MKP are getting rich, but no one seems to be able to prove it. MKP says that the payments (to the few that are paid) are not very substantial. The tax records I've seen support the MKP statements.

As I said, I can only try and follow the "money's", which seems to be very hard to do. I will no longer try as my husband has told me to stop. For the first time in 20 years, my husband [b:35b45cedea]screamed[/b:35b45cedea] and [b:35b45cedea]screamed[/b:35b45cedea] at me last night. I will not jeapardize my relationship with my husband. I love him too much. I will follow his path.

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I think they may be selfish with the lives of men in regard to not disclosing the process, but I don't think think they are out of integrity.

I am sorry, we have a difference of opinion here. But that is ok, how boring if everyone in this world had the exact same thoughts and ideas and opinions. Shall we agree to disagree?

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Your husband asked you not to disclose your (your relationship with your husband) business to 3rd parties. You're asking your husband to disclose a process over the weekend. Maybe I've got it wrong: Are you mad because you ASSUME that he talked about his relationship with you over the weekend?

I asked. He has been disclosing things about our relationship to many people without my being aware of it for a very long time. He now tells me "well, I feel I was wrong to ask that of you and had forgotten that we made that agreement". My emotion's bounce around on this, like he is trying to make what he has done "ok", and to make it "ok" for him to continue doing so. He is angry at me because he is the one that get's "yelled" at when I am upset. What do I do? He asked me not to talk to anyone else, who am I supposed to talk to if not him then? I feel as if I am being "told" to squash my thoughts and emotions. He screamed at me telling me I am all "fucked up" in the head. Who else do I talk to when he had asked me not to talk to anyone else? I have kept my promise to him. And, yes, it has made me "fucked up" in the head, I get no one else's "thoughts, opinions" except his....

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You're more forgiving than me. And you hold men less accountable for their actions that I would. Perhaps the difference is that I don't believe in the overall effect of LGAT as much as you do? I don't think it hit me that hard.

No, it is not that I hold them less accountable for their actions. I just understand how mental stress can cause a person (man or woman) to do something out of character.

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You're posting what "he thought" - which I'm not a fan of, but I guess I can accept.
Again, there was nothing in the disclosure that would have lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that your propose your husband "thought". I don't think it's a valid excuse.

Accepted, though I am not sure I am trying to "excuse" him, just a reason for my confusion, maybe, I don't know, it almost felt like he was trying to "sneak" something past me.

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Let me ask you this. I go to buy a car.
I *think* that I'm buying it for $20,000.
The contract says that I'm buying it for $25,000. And does not include any language for any other exceptions of exemptions.

Is it reasonable to assume that I'm getting anything other than what the contract says? Should I be mad when the dealership expects $25,000?

That would depend on the situation, I have had this happen. I was told my [b:35b45cedea]total[/b:35b45cedea] price would be a certain amount. Next thing I knew they were adding all kinds "extras" which slapped the price up without them telling me. I was stupid, went with the "gentlemans" explainations, signed the contract. And when I received my payment book, was in shock.....

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Let me be blunt. He either made his choice or it was a result of the depression. Don't confuse the two. You're posting excuses for a set of actions. "Depression" and "he thought it meant X" - both of them sure look like ways to take the accountability and integrity away from his actions.

Accepted

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Q: You state that under the right circumstances that "trained professions" could provide benefits to people. Is it possible that people can become professional and experience without traditional education?

Sure, not all of my training is "traditional", a good bit of it is hands on so to speak.

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I certainly see that some spouses [b:35b45cedea]demand[/b:35b45cedea] to know the details about the weekend

I do not feel that I demanded anything. I felt that as I asked questions, I was being "put off", which, set off alarm bells. I do not trust easily, and with the "agreement" "I thought" my husband and I had, this "frightned" me.

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In regard to it being a cult, I strongly disagree with that characterization personally. LGAT, yes. In regard to your states Regulatory Agency listing them as "watched" - I don't buy much credibility in that.. Remember, this is a country that imprisoned Asian Americans during WWII and prosecuted "suspected" communists in the 60s... Our government does a lot of dumb things.

I [b:35b45cedea]completely[/b:35b45cedea] agree with the fact that our government does a [b:35b45cedea]lot[/b:35b45cedea] of stupid things. This group that has Mankind Project listed under LGAT under CULT is a separate entity from the govt. though works with them in regards to sharing information etc. They have been around since the 60's. They "seem", from what I can tell, to have only the good of people as their work. International Cultic Studies Association, their email to me Subject: RE: Mankind Project: I strongly advise family members to learn about the dynamics of influence and control, find out about the group and the specifics of their loved one's involvement in it. www.culticstudies.org

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Ask your husband this for me:
"Did you understand from our previous agreement that we agreed to disclose ANYTHING that might have an impact on our relationship? Did you know that when you signed on with MKP?"

Obviously after speaking with him, he "forgot" his "promise" to me.

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Without going into my specific experiences, I can tell you that taking some "things" away from men is a legitimate safety concern for the entire group.

Of course, my husband said a man had a 12" knife on him when they checked. That should be taken away for the safety of everyone involved. I have no issue with things like that.

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At my weekend there were men who had gone through years of leading this sort of process. My understanding (now) is that training is involved, altough not the sort that you're taught in a graduate program. I'm not saying that this makes it safe or ok.

Sure, from what I can tell some training is involved. My husband has already talked about all the different "trainings" he could go to "for a large price". Who is doing the training? AND How much training do they really have, are they truly qualified?????

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You agree that you would not have signed the contract. You husband could read the contract. What he "thought" is either ignorant or not relevant, sorry... I don't see why you offer up excuses for him here.

Agreed, I see now where he was just trying to "slip" something by me from our [b:35b45cedea]talks[/b:35b45cedea] the last night.

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Did you edit the part where I provided the fact that you're asked to sign that contract BEFORE the LGAT?

I don't think I tried to edit anything, just that this is long and was trying to hit what felt like the main issues. I am sorry. I think I hit on this one in an above statement.

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I totally agree that MKP doesn't detail what the weekend is like!
I either trust the man who brought me to MKP, trust MKP, or I do NOT sign the contract. What I "thought" & my level of depression are not excuses.

My husband had just met the man that invited him to this. How can I trust someone [b:35b45cedea]I[/b:35b45cedea] have never met? Why did he trust someone he had "just" met? This is where I tried to explain, I "think" his depression was ???confusing?? his judgement.

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Your husband signed something that indicates total confidentiality without exception. It's not rational to say that he thought he was signing something else. Hey, I thought the speed limit was 60, but I still get a ticket.. He should have some accountability and I think you should stop making excuses..

Agreed, I "think" we, no, sorry, I, was not "paying" attention and was trusting my husband.

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I don't think your husband is out of integrity for feeling concern toward you. I think that *you* should be more understanding of what he went though.. maybe... and not press him to disclose what he agreed not to disclose, perhaps? (Yes, regardless of what he *thought* he signed)

I do not know how to respond. After speaking with him the last couple day's, I feel that he purposefully kept this "truth" from me (that he knew what he had me sign while he knew I was "very" involved with the children) and is now trying to make it "my" fault. Quandry, feeling lied to, feeling hurt, feeling my trust was abused.

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You have a valid eithical point (at least from my perspective). I don't know if they should continue if they do good for some, but damage others. Even if I assume that they do a great deal of good (based on what I've been told first hand) and do some level of harm to others (based on what I've read here) - I'm not willing to make that moral call. I just don't know.

This is why I do not believe in the death penalty. Same thing in a way, one man "might" die for a crime he did not commit. I know, some people feel the risk is worth it.

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ginah
RE: Clergy and therapist referrals
2. I do not know how to answer that question, maybe they have not enough information. Maybe they think that the person they are sending would be benefited by this group. H*ll, maybe they are brainwashed, I don't know...... Why is it that I have known members of the clergy to preach what not to do, and then I find them doing it??? This just shows, research and get to know, before you leap...

I don't think that clergy and therapist referrals make it 100% OK either.
I'd suggest that it's not anti-Christian (not that you claimed it was) and has some individual level support in various churches.
Therapists.. well, they're like programmers - there are good ones and bad ones!

Agreed

I am not aware of MKP having "any" religious leanings. I cannot claim that they do. They do use some pagan rituals (Wiccan, not necessarily evil folks, it's the person behind the gun) and (Native American), which I will say is no where near an issue for me. It is that I know that some men and women, this would be an issue for and that MKP is wrong to not disclose this to these wo/men whom it would cause problems for. They do not have to disclose "exactly" what goes on, jeeze, just let people know "some" information so they can make an informed decision.

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I'm torn on the "research" issue. MKP has the most impact (based on my experience) if you don't know what the process is. If there was a way to expose more of what goes on without detailing the process, I'd be for that disclosure. Otherwise, you're taking away the potential to do *good* at the same time you're exposing the "secrets".

I believe that if they truly wanted to, they could. And I agree with you, if you knew "exactly" what was going on, it might not be as beneficial for some men. I still think in this world, we have the right to information so we can make a decision with knowledge.

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Your post shows that you've got an open mind, which is unusual on these types of forums from my experience. Most people have made up their mind. You might try posting on the Yahoo group, unless X finds that you find something postive in MKP. If you the criticism of MKP is bad here, you'll really be shocked there!

I am on more than one group at this time. I have been trying to find what information as I can. Looking in only one place does not do that. I am a person who "wants, needs" information before I leap..... My life has tought me that, look before you leap, and then look again, and then wait a few days "and look again".

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Ginah, I completely understand why you might feel hurt.
You view him as a man of integrity, so why not ask him - or tell him that you expect him to keep your confidences still and see what the reaction is.

I have done so, I felt frustration with me from him in regards to this.

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I suppose that MKP could break *some* people, but I think most of those people allow themselves to be broken. I'd *guess* that very few (if any) are broken and "brainwashed" in the common sense of the terms... It's just not that bad.

I don't believe that "some" allow themselves to be broken. I do not agree with that completely. Mental disabilities, can, and will for some, cause many many problems that they might not even be aware of (not stating this as in regards to my husband, just people in general and from my knowledge of what mental disabilites can do to a person.)

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Yes, I certainly do.
I don't know what to tell you. You either trust that your husband can make good choices in regard to those he does disclose to - or you trust him not to say anything... Again, he's got free will. He can make the choice. If he's a man of integrity, he will do what he tells you he's going to do.

Agreed, though after yesterday, I definitely have some "trust" issues with him.

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Yes, usually free will of men who are vulnerable. And the "upfront" part I have answered enough times.

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There are submissive men that may remember what their spouse told them to do.. Perhaps those men are less likely to be "vunerable".

I *think* I have free will. I choose not to continue with MKP. No one is leaning on me to make a decision one way or the other. I don't feel very vunerable. I suppose the reality could be different.

I am not stating that a man must be "submissive", I was stating that I thought my husband and I had an agreement under HIS request. Which I felt he then expected me to follow, but not him. He "forgot".

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Sorry. This is bullshit. He's responsible for signing it. If he didn't read or didn't understand, he's responsible for that also. He gets no break from me, although I understand the position that he's in now.

Again, after further conversations with him, you are right. He knew what he signed. He just didn't let me know. He broke his request of me in regards to our relationship and the agreement we made with each other.

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[b:35b45cedea]Do you believe that MKP is a cult?[/b:35b45cedea]

Yes

I completely disagree. Then again, I may be a brain dead zombie.

Actually, you sound like someone with an open mind. My request of you, please do more research on this group.

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I do not believe the weekend and what they do to be a "mortal sin", I believe the secrecy, the techniques they use with untrained professionals, is the "sin".... What is right for me may be wrong for you, what is right for you may be wrong for me, neither way is "wrong" in and of itself, it is how it effects the person.

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Read the yahoo group. You'll find that it's a mortal sin, as proposed by the moderator of that group.
My point is that there are *extreme* opinons on MKP and I encourage you to find a balance as best you can, even though you can't go through it yourself.

I have been trying to do so, I am trying, the problem, MKP makes that hard to do.

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MKP supports homosexuality
That is not an issue for me. As I stated, my way may not be yours, and your way may not be mine. Neither way is wrong. Everyone has their own path they "need" to follow in this world.....

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Homosexuality is a big issue for a LOT of men in many ways. Many are openly afraid of the issue. Again, my point is that there are anti-MKP forums that play on the fears of men and fears of society so that MKP looks bad, even though the basis for those statements are not exactly grounded in fact.

Agreed

[[quote]
MKP would cause themselves less problems if they were upfront about what they do, and how they do it.
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I agree!
But let's solve the problem: How do we get around the claim that something is lost from the "process" without keeping the procedure secret? I believe that something is lost if they fully disclose.

I am not saying they have to "fully" disclose, I am sure that somewhere there is a middle ground if they just wanted to find it.

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ginah
If a Christian man (or any religion) is not aware of the fact that this group uses "pagan" ceramonies, how is that holding to "integrity" and how is that beneficial to his mental state? Again, here is where I feel "a lie of admission" is in play.

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I think that the ceremonies may have a basis in ancient cultures.
If you simulate a rain dance, one might claim that you're engaging in a pagan ritual.. As such, you risk your soul.

I don't believe that you "risk your soul", a person's spirituality with "god" is between that person and god, and however they best feel to show that, is between that person and "god". Not that person, god, and the world.

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Personally, I find that *silly* - there is nothing inherently wrong about doing such a dance. I understand how some conservative Christians might be offended by this, especially if they are spurred by the postings of other men who fear the process.

Agreed

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My only way to answer your question is with a questions:
How can MKP (or any other group) be INCLUSIONARY - that is, not be specific to one specific brand of religion or without offending another.
If MKP used Christian ritual, they might potentially offend Muslims or Hindus.. The way it is today, they're going to offend everyone if you take parts of the process LITERALLY. Course, if you do that, you're likely to be offended by homosexuals! It ain't a place for the ultra-conservative and close minded.

Which is why I state, SOME form of disclosure from them about their practices need to be addressed by them so that wo/men do not end up being ?offended? hurt, harmed, through a process which they have no information about. No true information about what they are "agreeing" to.

I will check this forum once more for your reply to this. I will read it, but am not sure that I will reply back. I feel I need to go with my husband's wishes for our relationship to prosper.

How very sad
good luck to you

I respect your need to do what you need for you. I suspect you will be back. I am afraid your husband is learning to respect only his feelings, and no one else's. Or he has never respected your feelings.

Either way, you will need support for yourself. Most people cannot "go it alone".

I wish you well. Most of us will be here if you need anything.

ginah,

Best wishes to you, your husband, and for your relationship.

It's been an honor to be able to *discuss* these topics without without resorting to name calling, presenting opinions as facts, and for both of us to take accountability. I am sorry that the MKP experience has hurt you personally and know that I wish you the best.
You have taught me things.. I very much appreciate it.

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feldspar

Actually, I think you've hit something there. The presumption that someone attending MKP means that societal norms aren't working in a man's life. I think this is the essence of the problem with this type of educational experience, it doesn't leave the possibility open that societal norms are working for a man. That's why I think more information, without disclosing the process per se could be provided before hand. Think of it this way, lets pretend you have high blood pressure and signed up for a course that advertised they could teach you to control your blood pressure. In this course they taught you all the healthy ways to eat and excercise to control your blood pressure. But you were already doing those things, would it benefit you. Or say your blood pressure was caused by chronic kidney disease and these measures COULDN"T help you. Would you feel that it was unfair they didn't disclose how they planned on teaching you to control your blood pressure. Bottom line, The mind in a hell of a lot more complex than the tone of a blood vessel.

Feldspar, You bring up a good point that I agree with.
I *believe* that MKP leans on members to do recruiting and doesn't get very specific with the type of men that need to be recruited. It's one of the reasons that I choose not to continue the association. I don't think that men should recruit others that have relatively healthy and happy lives and are living with integrity. Of course, part of me asks how do you judge healthy and happy from the outside looking in? It's a tough call to make.


I would be supportive of disclosing "more" information without detailing the process, if such could be done. Anything that might disspell fear in the eyes of spouses - or get rid of these myths that MKP is supporting homsexuality and endangering Christian souls.

cb, i'd be careful about calling it a myth that attending MKP endangerous christian souls. I happen to agree with you that it probably does not. That being said, taking an oath of secrecy in prohibited in some denominations, as are the calling of quarters. No one of us really knows then if it is a myth that their souls are engendered. I agree that you have to draw the line somewhere and no one group can be entirely inclusive to all beliefs and customs, but to some individuals it may not be a myth. Just a thought.

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cb1000rider
...myths that MKP is supporting homsexuality...

If that were a myth, the Rainbow Warriers (homosexual division) wouldn't exist.

I give up.

If you think that MKP promotes the homesexual lifestyle, that's fine. Maybe the weekend is a big long subvertive, manipultive, gay conversion process? Heck, maybe I'm gay now and don't know it. My subconscious might have been mangled by the deprivation that I barely survived, similar to a weekend in a POW camp, right?

I don't dispute that "rainbow warriors" exists. MKP does not discriminate against black, white, brown, straight, gay, Muslim, Christian, athiest, or pig-worshipper. Such does not mean that they promote those lifestyles. A seperate group might indicate that they choose to address gay issues in a gay specific weekend, perhaps as such would be a more "appropriate" forum? Nah, having rainbow warriors means that the promote that lifestyle as a great way to live and are trying to get the rest of us to join in!

Is MKP tolerant, yes.. Highly. They don't promote one more than the other. That may be *way* too tolerant for people with a more narrow forcus and an expection of societal norms. Maybe we should get rid of anyone who thinks or lives differently than us... Isn't that what the Nazis did? Isn't that what radical Islam promotes? I'm right, d#mn it! Everyone else is wrong and should conform.. Otherwise your lifestyle is sinful, wrong, and it's ok if we persecute and descriminate against you.

If you think going to MKP is a mortal sin, that's fine too. I don't push my personal morals on others. You can make your own call. It's too late for me, I'm already damned to hell and might as well forget about salvation.
Save yourselves!

cb don't give up
I you re-read your post, you said it was a myth that MKP SUPPORTS homosexuality. That is not correct. It supports it just like it supports alcoholics, men with drug problems and other problems. I don't want to speak for you, but perhaps you meant that it is a myth that mkp PROMOTES homosexuality. That may be the reason you got the responses from your post

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cb1000rider
ginah,

Best wishes to you, your husband, and for your relationship.

It's been an honor to be able to *discuss* these topics without resorting to name calling, presenting opinions as facts, and for both of us to take accountability. I am sorry that the MKP experience has hurt you personally and know that I wish you the best.
You have taught me things.. I very much appreciate it.

Thank You, as I have learned from you. It has been stimulating to discuss these issues without feeling that my ideas/thoughts/opinions were being "bashed". My husband has agreed to go to counseling with me (professional trained counselors) and I have already been myself to get things set up. I am feeling better about our relationship though things are still "??? a bit uncomfortable?? (not quite the right word) between us. Hopefully the MKP group will change some of how they "handle" family members. They are just as important as these men they are "helping". My counseling team is now doing their own "intense" research into this group. We have a great team here where I live and have worked with this group for many years and trust them. When the "concensus" from my team comes in I will post here about their (and my) thoughts on this group.

Thank you to everyone who has been supportive, please think about, discussing issues, not "bashing" each other about differences of opinions.