I've been involved with the Mankind project since 1988. I see no organizational abuse of power here, unlike, say, the Catholic Church, which I was a member of for 16 years. It is a not for profit, no one makes any undue amount of money and many men volunteer their time, including world renowned therapists, phychologists, doctors, clergy, business executives, etc.

A few men on a few occasions have acted out of integrity on a training, but I've never seen any real abuse or control. (Unlike our average singles bar) On the contrary, this work tends to empower men to be better husbands, fathers, men of community. The power always rests with the individual man, not the organization. There are no gurus here.

I think most of the stories of weirdness are anomolies or outright fabrications. Never seen this stuff on any training I've been part of, and I've been on over a hundred. I'm a 50 year old man with 5 kids, conluding 4 year old twins, live a normal life and would never let any orginazatoin control or abuse me!

MKP does not belong on this list.

And to the end of our $600 weekend 'adventure' in 'eductation'

[Note: What follows is not the complete original post, but rather the following is an edited summary for the purpose of criticism within "fair use" guidelines, due to a protest regarding copyright made by MP]

What MP calle "The Gift Part Two"

This segment again, quite a bit of knowing repetition within MP training, where each man is exspected to feel "the power of the archetypal joyful boy" and "'wild man' in his body and integrates it into his being...until they vibrate with it."

Once again, there is the story of "the cage," "the village" and the "golden ball."

The men are told to "eat this myth and digest it so it becomes your own. Then let it flow through you...Until you are ready to internalize the gift..."

"Blessings to Ron [the MP creator] for a truly awesome 'gift.'"

Amen.

It's time again for the "men to close their eyes" and begin the "the relaxation suggestions."

Such relaxation techniques can make people more suggestable, much like hypnosis.

There is more "music."

MP leader tells the initiates to "slowly, let the Boy to sink through the shoulders of the wildman as you are carrying him and his golden ball.
In your minds eye see the Boy sinking into you the Wild Man and the golden ball becomes your center and you merge the Boy and the Wild Man together."

This visulazation process then continues with careful suggestions to "feel the energy" and "taste of the Wild Man." And "feel the power."

Initiates are then led to "Let a new energy fill your body, and let it become a sound, and let that new sound out, let it out now!"

There is much more story telling, or the same story told again and spun so that more suggestions are taken then taken in and internalized. All this is carefully scipted and there is "Holographic Music",,.(from the beginning).'

The men are told to "slowly go back, memorize how you get there, slowly go back to the Gift and combine the king, the Wild Man, the Adventurer and the boy together...And feel all that integrated into your being, right now, now, now! And enjoy it."

This process is quite detailed with physical positions, speech and breathing.

There seems to be something like a post hypnotic suggestion for holding on to the experience and recalling it.

MP suggest this "can be as simple as squeezing your fingers together, pinching an earlobe, or touching your heart, but create an anchor that you can use for the rest of your life, to bring up the energy of the Gift."

MP calls this repeatedly an "anchor."

MP then says, "What we want [iinitiates/new brothers] to do is anchor and create that energy every time you open a door with a key."

"Feel that energy...anchor" and new brothers "will be reminded of the power of the Gift."

Carefully scripted and choreographed exercises now are used repeatedly to embed or anchor the "anchor" within MP adherents.

Finally the brothers are told "You can never lose this gift, for it is who you are."

What comes next is the "Purification Renewal Ceremony"

Complete with props this is as other parts of the MP weekend carefully detailed down to "fire starting supplies, tools, water and bucket, lodge covers, any poles and lodge floor coverings."

There is a "feast" complete with an "empowering intent."

The "master of ceremonies" should be "playful" and "loving these brothers, with the situation well in hand."

Everything is structured including a "feast coordinator," "4 or 5 elders...as honorary 'tasters.'"

Everything is done with an aura of sacredness'" including "sacred forks."

Each phase of the meal is carefully scripted and choreogrpahed and has a specific "empowering intent."

MP calls "'Chicken Carving...a [potentially] classic 'taboo breaking' process." Though MP warns that at times it has become "distorted into a sophomoric, semi sadistic."


After the feast comes photo ops.

After photogrpahy sessiong comes the "Secret Male Ritual"

MP says "read or memorize verbatim 'Secret Male Ritual' its definitions," of the words such as "Commit...Trust...Confidential...[and]...Secret"

MP says that "all of the processes we do are secret. It doesn't work to share it with others. Especially women, they wouldn't understand men's ritual."

Regarding its penchant for secrecy and withholding information to potential participants MP has its rationalizations.

MP claims that knowing what "we are getting into BEFORE we get into it" isn't really that important. Because this "means we will end up evaluating before the event, how we will respond, participate or judge an activity. In other words we may put our own prejudices on an activity and miss out on the opportunities to stretch and grow."

MP supposedly wants "to protect the opportunity for each men to truly see and appreciate himself as he is, with out a pre judgment. For that reason we do not share any of the processes outside the weekend. That way everyone comes to the weekend from a place of equality. No one has 'the inside scoop.'"

This includes any of the specifics and therefore MP brothers are very limited in what they may tell a potential new brother about the weekend, such as getting naked, spanked, divulging deeply personal information and seemingly submitting to what can be seen as group hypnosis.

MP admits that "some of the power of [it calls] personal development work is the element of surprise."

More "Visualization" is used to prepare for "leaving" and "going home."

MP asks "What feelings does going home bring up?"

This includes how "others may react" to the new brother after his MP training such as "women...children...Friends/Co workers" and even "pets."

MP warns "No Guts: Don't do guts with your friends, family or boss: without the container or environment of trust we build it doesn't work." Then MP says "Walk your talk: Model what you have learned."

Now there are "Announcements...To inform new brothers clearly about follow up activities in the local and global New Warrior communities...about more of this work.

MP tells staffers/leaders to "Just present the information as an invitation, not a sales presentation."

Them comes "Graduation," which...invites them to make the commitment to be there and gives staff a sense of who to expect at the graduation event."

There is more MP work to be done such as "Inner King, Warrior Monk, Shadow Work, Mission Weekend other network events, annual ManKind Project midyear conference and winter business meeting."

There are also "Leadership Training opportunities" and "Women's training events for wives etc.."

There are also scripted "staff acknowledgement."

MP says its staffers often pay "for their own room and board...[drive] from considerable distance at their own expense.

Apparently, much like Landmark Education and other LGAT companies or organizations MP has receives quite a bit of free labor and doesn't even pay expenses.

MP is a nonprofit organization, but many nonprofits pay their staff and provide for work related expenses.

Then comes the "Good Bye Ritual"

"New brothers circle up" and shake hands in a detailed and carefully choreographed exercise, hand shake "(time: approximately 45 seconds)."

They also "say good bye with your eyes (45 seconds)...intimate to be in eye contact."

This is done to the beat of a drum giving "brothers the opportunity to say good bye to the men in their own circle."

Then staff lines up for their good bye too for "30 to 45 seconds" with each man.

Again, they repeat the "one final time in an emotionally receptive state" their "mission."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Brainwashed yet?! Seems ridiculus in the cold light of the monitor doesn't it! To follow - Coordinator Protocols!!!! Someone thought REALLY hard about all this - for about 30 seconds! Laughable, it really is - they can only maintain this illusion for as long as men continue to go. Walk around the real world thinking you are superman and see how long you last! Grown men reduced to thinking that the above is some realistic framework with which to better themselves! I wish they would sit at home and read a few books instead - think of the library of respected authors (Chomsky, Baudrillard, Barthes - people who have thought long and hard about how to liberate HUmankind from the myths of religion) you could buy for $600!

People who join these groups are lonely, hurt, confused and lost. Religion has failed them (no surprise), but then they have to mess their heads with new-age romaniticism mixed with nazi-esque mind control. And we wonder why our kids grow messed up!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2010 02:39AM by rrmoderator.

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seedjoe
I've been involved with the Mankind project since 1988. I see no organizational abuse of power here, unlike, say, the Catholic Church, which I was a member of for 16 years.

I beg to differ seedjoe, but the protocols are a great example of institutional abuse! Sleep, food and identity deprivation. Same as techniques as the Nazis used. And I have just as much criticism of organised religion as I do this scam, so please, find a stronger defense!

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seedjoe
It is a not for profit, no one makes any undue amount of money and many men volunteer their time, including world renowned therapists, phychologists, doctors, clergy, business executives, etc.

I would love to see a list of, I quote, 'world renowned' members. Surely to join and need a group like this suggests certain issues are held? If you need to have powerful Jungian psychological experiments (at their most innocent) done on yourself, and are unwilling to admit it..... hmmmm not the type of 'world renowned' I'd like to trust.

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seedjoe
A few men on a few occasions have acted out of integrity on a training, but I've never seen any real abuse or control. (Unlike our average singles bar) On the contrary, this work tends to empower men to be better husbands, fathers, men of community. The power always rests with the individual man, not the organization. There are no gurus here.

I'm still wanting an exact definition of the word 'man' as used by your ideology. Just what role does husband/father/community play on the self for you guys?

The power of groupthink - if you believe, it must be. I've read your twisted logic. Someone wrote it seedjoe. Someone collects money. Sorry to burst your little reality-bubble.

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seedjoe
I think most of the stories of weirdness are anomolies or outright fabrications. Never seen this stuff on any training I've been part of, and I've been on over a hundred. I'm a 50 year old man with 5 kids, conluding 4 year old twins, live a normal life and would never let any orginazatoin control or abuse me!

Thats fair enough - you can believe what you want about your secret society - we'll just have to keep guessing I guess.
And just what have you gained from spending over $6000?! Thats a lot of money for a parent of 5 children.

"ive a normal life and would never let any orginazatoin control or abuse me!" - Erm, seedjoe - if they control you, you would say that, wouldn't you? And if you are embarresed, you'd say that. Besides, using the logic of your intitiation ceremony, I am only a part of your reality, so I am you saying this to you.

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seedjoe
MKP does not belong on this list.

Sorry seedjoe, I have listened to your opinions and I have thought about them. I just happen to disagree with every point you have made so far. And I disagree here too.

MKP is most certainly a classic example of a LGAT. I admit I don't think it is the most aggressive in its fundraising. I believe it is expensive to promote the idea of eliteness, and to make tired and hungry weekenders believe they are getting a good payback.

The techniques used during the weekend are similar to est, Landmark and the others, it is just packaged differently for a different 'target-market'. The ideology it entrenches in its tired and hungry weekenders is sexist and retro. The ideology it entrences in its tired and hungry weekends is sexist and retro. Did I mention the fact it needs to repeat its barmy physics myth three times in 36 hours a little wierd and mantric?!

My husband is also in his 50's. He did not lie or make this up. This happened. He has absolutely no reason to lie. He had every intention of going to Igroup before this happened.

After this happened, he just wanted to get out of there. If it was left up to him, he would have gotten dressed, skipped the feast, and left.

seedjoe, the weekend starts with a lie. Husband was told he needed to carpool because there was not enough parking. MKP even arranged who rode with who. Their weekend was held way out in the country hourse from the city. There were acres of pasture parking. That was a lie. Either a man did not have his car, or other men were dependent on him to get home. It would have been very difficult to just leave. That was the plan. How do you feel when your children lie to you. If there are many lies from your children, do you start to question many things they say. Why should I think any different of MKP.

Google coercive persuasion. Tell me that is not what happens on warrior weekend. This is a direct quote from one article:

For example, in United States V. Lee 455 U.S. 252, 257-258 (1982), the California Supreme Court found that when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent... (he may) develp serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up and including schizophrenia, self mutilation, and suicide".

Another quote:

The following are the six primary techniques used to generate the conversion.

The mmeeting or training takes place in an area where participants are cut off from the outside world. This may be any place - a private homes, a remote or rural setting, or even a hotel ballroom where the participants are allowed only limited bathroom usage. In human potential trainings, the controllers will give a lengthy talk about the importance of "keeping agreement" in life. The participants are told that if they don't keep agreements, their life will never work. It is a good idea to keep agreements, but the controllers are subverting a positive human value for selfish purposes. They will usually have to agree not to take drugs, smoke, and sometimes not to eat or they are given such short meal breaks that it creates tension. The real reason for the agreements is to alter internal chemistry, which generates anxiety and hopefully causes at least a slight malfunction of the nervous system.

Before the gathering is complete, the agreements will be used to ensure that the new converts go out and find new participants. Be wary of an organization of this type that offers follow up sessions after the seminar. As the early Christian revivalists found, long term control is dependant upon a good follow up system.

Now let's look at the second tip off that indicates conversion tactics are being used. A schedule is maintained that causes physical and mental fatigue. This is primarily accomplisehd by long hours in which the participants are given no opportunity for relaxation or reflection.

The third tip off: techniques are used to increase the tension in the room or environment.

Number four: I could spend hours relating various techniques to increase tension and generate uncertainty Basically, the participants are concerned about being put on the spot or encountered by the trainers, guilt feelings are played upon, participants are tempted to verbally relate their innermost secrets to the other participants or forced to take part in activities that emphasize removing their "masks".

The fifth clue is the induction of jargon - new terms that have meaning only to the insiders who participate. Vicious language is also frequently used, purposely to make participants uncomfortable.

The final tip off is that there is no humor in the communications at least until the participants are converted. Then merry making and humor are highly desirable as symbols of the new joy the participants have supposedly found.

My husband said all of this went on. A good program simply does not need to do this. Only a program looking to control people does this.

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nutrino

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I am sorry if I offended anyone with this statement. I realize it is very shocking.

Neither shocking nor surprising. In the EST 6 day training we had Sex Night where were were bombarded with with 3 movie screens of hardcore pornography... each screen had a seperate hardcore film on it. Each reel was composed of maybe a dozen hardcore short films, spliced together to form a mind numbing "spectacular".... we were treated to bestiality, extreme gay sex (guys in Nazi drag no less!) and everything else short of kiddie porn.

After the movies we had a night of "processes"... like the trainer asking the room how many had engaged in anal sex, please stand up...

Then the trainer regaled us with how he had anal sex with his mistress, and how he had "shared" this information with his wife, and how this had made their marriage better....

And on, and on, and on....

Sexual boundaries are among our deepest and most personal... this isn't about sex, it's about breaking down a sense of appropriate boundaries, and shifting the locus of control outside of oneself to an authority figure.

What a bunch of sick perverts

This is one sick group of men!

Between, What to do, Ru?ing, and Ivy (me) we are like the 3 musketeers. Finally starting to get somewhere with all the snooping and prying and sharing, thanks and keep it coming

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RU?ing

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what2do
feldspar, I spent some time reading on the yahoo web you gave. Pretty eye opening stuff. I do understand what you mean about that forum. A lot of bickering between a handful of people, with neither side giving an inch.

I've got on too - and posted a couple of comments so should get some hairs on end - I think the best thing I can do there is promote some real debate!

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what2do
I had never heard of the sex toy used in Ctalk. That seemed to gross me out. I was surprised that the men would hold it while speaking. I guess by that point so many barriers had been broken down, they just went along with whatever was suggested.

Mind control in action.

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what2do
The information I have received in these last few weeks from the people here has been so helpful. It is hard to resist an "enemy" that you do not know. I understand the phrase - keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. I do not think my husband will ever associate with this group again. I am one of the lucky ones.

I trully hope he doesn't - this is the most overpriced commodity I have ever come across!

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what2do
I keep thinking of all the women, who have read the literature and blindly believe it. You have to admit the literature, and the websites have everything a wife would want for her husband.

Clever semantics are at play with these people, very slick presentation. Completely empty rhetoric when any thought applied! Reminds me of the UK tory and labour parties - and the republicans on your side of the water!

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what2do
This has taught me a very valuable lesson. Be wary of anyone who promises the sun, moon, and stars and a life of perfection if you just follow their path. There will always be a hidden agenda behind those promises.

We are but small people, disposable. I thought I was a cynic that had come across all the deprived human conditions - how did I miss all this?? - though as I have stated before, the UK seems a little less prone to these LGAT's - for now - we always seem to import everything a few years later!
There are a lot of people desperate to cling to one ideology or another, be it Christian, Buddhist, Socialist, Capitalist, Nihilst - is this the inherent human weakness? The need to comply to a higher power? We are the higher power!!!! When will we get over this collective madness?!

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feldspar
thank you so much for posting this
I have felt like something was wrong with me for the last 5 years after leaving this group, like I was the only one that didn't "get it"

It nice to finally meet a memeber who actually seen this group for what they truley are. Truste me you would not still be marry if you continued! You should be proud of how you over came this group! You were the only one who did get it and got out! yahoo!

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Ivy
Between, What to do, Ru?ing, and Ivy (me) we are like the 3 musketeers. Finally starting to get somewhere with all the snooping and prying and sharing, thanks and keep it coming

Lets hope we can continue to break the hypnosis!

I could read a lot of books for $600, and learn a lot. A lot more than the drivel these guys unwittingly buy.

Sorry to all who have done it - I lost money just nearly doing it - so I was suckered too, don't think I think I'm superior or in anyway immune. They prey on weak guys (and women) who have a slight interest in the occult/non-conformist science - at least over here. You have to be broken before going to want to 'get it'. So any man who is in it, and thinks they've 'got it', is basically saying I've been suckered, and I can't cope with the real world. Thats the shame of it for me, the fact that a 'friend' would lie to me repeatedly, just to get me to go, basically to justify and legitimise his own ideology. Nothing was really 'for me'. Groupthink (shudder). And the guy's my boss! oh boy.

Hey Seed Joe ~ Dont get me started! First I am Native American, so don't try to use the spiritual beliefs of my people to the Catholic church! I am a member of (The lake of the Woods) Are you Indian? Or just a want be?
And as for Catholic Church's, you can walk into there church's any day of the week and sit down and listen to a ceremony. But not with the MKP, hmmmmm wonder why??

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RU?ing

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seedjoe
I've been involved with the Mankind project since 1988. I see no organizational abuse of power here, unlike, say, the Catholic Church, which I was a member of for 16 years.

I beg to differ seedjoe, but the protocols are a great example of institutional abuse! Sleep, food and identity deprivation. Same as techniques as the Nazis used. And I have just as much criticism of organised religion as I do this scam, so please, find a stronger defense!

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seedjoe
It is a not for profit, no one makes any undue amount of money and many men volunteer their time, including world renowned therapists, phychologists, doctors, clergy, business executives, etc.

I would love to see a list of, I quote, 'world renowned' members. Surely to join and need a group like this suggests certain issues are held? If you need to have powerful Jungian psychological experiments (at their most innocent) done on yourself, and are unwilling to admit it..... hmmmm not the type of 'world renowned' I'd like to trust.

Quote
seedjoe
A few men on a few occasions have acted out of integrity on a training, but I've never seen any real abuse or control. (Unlike our average singles bar) On the contrary, this work tends to empower men to be better husbands, fathers, men of community. The power always rests with the individual man, not the organization. There are no gurus here.

I'm still wanting an exact definition of the word 'man' as used by your ideology. Just what role does husband/father/community play on the self for you guys?

The power of groupthink - if you believe, it must be. I've read your twisted logic. Someone wrote it seedjoe. Someone collects money. Sorry to burst your little reality-bubble.

Quote
seedjoe
I think most of the stories of weirdness are anomolies or outright fabrications. Never seen this stuff on any training I've been part of, and I've been on over a hundred. I'm a 50 year old man with 5 kids, conluding 4 year old twins, live a normal life and would never let any orginazatoin control or abuse me!

Thats fair enough - you can believe what you want about your secret society - we'll just have to keep guessing I guess.
And just what have you gained from spending over $6000?! Thats a lot of money for a parent of 5 children.

"ive a normal life and would never let any orginazatoin control or abuse me!" - Erm, seedjoe - if they control you, you would say that, wouldn't you? And if you are embarresed, you'd say that. Besides, using the logic of your intitiation ceremony, I am only a part of your reality, so I am you saying this to you.

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seedjoe
MKP does not belong on this list.

Sorry seedjoe, I have listened to your opinions and I have thought about them. I just happen to disagree with every point you have made so far. And I disagree here too.

MKP is most certainly a classic example of a LGAT. I admit I don't think it is the most aggressive in its fundraising. I believe it is expensive to promote the idea of eliteness, and to make tired and hungry weekenders believe they are getting a good payback.

The techniques used during the weekend are similar to est, Landmark and the others, it is just packaged differently for a different 'target-market'. The ideology it entrenches in its tired and hungry weekenders is sexist and retro. The ideology it entrences in its tired and hungry weekends is sexist and retro. Did I mention the fact it needs to repeat its barmy physics myth three times in 36 hours a little wierd and mantric?!