Its all so Owellian - conformity is choice, ignorance is freedom.

I just want to make it clear that I don't mock anyone for wanting to do a course like this, it sounds very nice, until you realise what techniques and ideologies are at play. And then theres the money....

I signed up. Luckily I found this site before the weekend.

and sometimes its not when they just hit bottom.

people have nagging problems that they carry with them
everyday. these encounters make them have a sense
of accomplishment but the people are not aware of just
what the real accomplishment was.

they end up feeling good about themselves and of course
the credit goes to the group or the leader that helped
them get there.

manipulation is very effective at changing peoples behavior.
manipulation is trickery.

Quote
feldspar
This link is way too much to read, but you can read the intro a get a pretty good sense of the dissertation.

[72.14.203.104]

sorry but I don't know how to hyperlink so you'll have to paste the link to follow it

Funny how when they do the % of ages of men, race and religion they have every race and religion for every group but native American???? Go figure!

Here is some of the guts manual and I group advanced training


PRODUCTIVE QUESTIONS / COMMENTS
1. ACTIVE LISTENING (REPEAT BACK KEY WORDS)
• “WHAT I’M HEARING IS ...”
2. WHAT’S AT RISK?
3. CLARIFYING
• WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU?
• WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE FOR YOU?
I want to be loved. What does that mean to you, “to be loved”?
It means to be held and accepted for who I am. How do you mean, “who you are”?
I mean for my good and bad traits. What do you mean by bad traits?
My addictions. What does an addiction look like to you?
Like when I masturbate. What do you mean by masturbation?
I’m so ashamed (Cries).
4. FOCUSING (GOING FOR SPECIFICS)
• WHO?
• WHAT?
• HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
• WHEN?
I’m mad. Who are you mad at?
Dad. What about your dad?
He is crazy. How is he crazy?
He hit me. How / where did he hit you?
With his fist in my mouth. When? How old were you?
I was 6. What was happening before he hit you?
I was just playing (Cries).
5. VALIDATING
I’m scared. You look scared to me.
I do not want to do this. This seems very hard for you.
I’m afraid I’ll start to cry. That’s right. You might cry if you do this.
And I’ll never stop. I’ll bet you could cry forever.
6. PACING / MIRRORING (EXAGGERATE WHERE APPROPRIATE)
I’m really pissed. You’re fucking angry!
Yeah. It’s my goddam wife. That bitch really pisses you off!
Yeah. She’s always telling me what a jerk I am. She’s always ragging on you!
I hate her. You wish she’d just die!
No! I’m so scared she’s gonna leave me.



This stuff just grosses me out! UGH!

Songs they use ....I will never be able to listen to any of this again and there is more! UGH!


OMG I will never look at these songs the same, GTG get sick!
MUSIC
1. MUSIC FOR GUTS PROCESSES AND CELEBRATION(S)
• BOLDED TYPE INDICATES FREQUENT USE ON NWTA WEEKEND’S
CATEGORY (Process) ARTIST TITLE
Anger Fooling Yourself
(The Angry Young Man) Styx
Birth Canal Cat Stevens Morning Has Broken
Birth Canal Elton John The Greatest Discovery
Birth Canal John Lennon Beautiful Boy
Celebration Beatles With A Little Help From My Friends
Celebration Black Box Strike It Up!
Celebration C+C Music Factory Gonna Make You Sweat (Everybody Dance Now)
Celebration Cream I Feel Free
Celebration Doors Break On Through
Celebration Joe Cocker With A Little Help From My Friends
Celebration Kool And The Gang (The Patrick Cowley Menergy Megamix) Celebrate - Menergy
Celebration Marky Mark And The Funky Bunch Good Vibrations
Celebration Michael Mc Donald Sweet Freedom
Celebration Prince (Formerly Known As) Baby I’m A Star
Celebration Rozalla Everybody’s Free
Celebration Soundtrack -
Forest Gump - Aretha Franklin Respect
(Continued ...)
CATEGORY (Process) ARTIST TITLE
Celebration Soundtrack -
Forest Gump - Three Dog Night Joy To The World
Celebration Technotronic Get Up And Move Your Body
Celebration Three Dog Night Celebrate - Celebrate
Celebration - Reflective Enigma Return To Innocence
Celebration - Reflective Soundtrack -
Forest Gump - The Youngbloods Let’s Get Together

Celebration - Reflective Soundtrack -
The Body Guard -Whitney Houston I Will Always Love You
Celebration - Reflective Soundtrack -
The Lion King - Elton John Can You Feel The Love Tonight
Celebration - Reflective Soundtrack -
The Lion King - Elton John Circle Of Life
Celebration - Slow Chris Spheeris Where The Angels Fly
Celebration - Slow Soundtrack - The Power Of One The Power Of One
Cradle Donna Summer There Will Always Be A You
Cradle Joe Cocker and Jennifer Warrens Love Lift Us Up Where We Belong
Cradle Requiem For The Americas Far Far Cry
Cradle Simon And Garfunkel Bridge Over Troubled Water
Cradle - Anne Murray A Love Song
Cradle - The Hollies He Ain’t Heavy He’s My Brother
Cradle - Flying Bette Midler Wind Beneath My Wings
Cradle - Instrumental Enya Book Of Days
Cradle - Instrumental Enya Storms In Africa
Cradle - Instrumental Fresh Aire (VII) 7 Stars Of The Big Dipper
Cradle - Instrumental Mars Lazar One Day
Cradle - Instrumental Patrick O’hearn Espana
(Continued ...)
CATEGORY (Process) ARTIST TITLE
Cradle - Instrumental Soundtrack -
Chariots Of Fire - Vangelis Theme
Cradle - Instrumental Soundtrack -
Glory (Closing Credits) Closing Credits
Cradle - Instrumental Soundtrack -
Missing - Vangelis Climb
Cradle - Instrumental Soundtrack -
Missing - Vangelis Main Theme
Cradle - Instrumental Soundtrack -
Vangelis Themes CD First Approach
Cradle - Instrumental Yanni Dare To Dream - Track #6
Cradle - Instrumental Yanni Reflections Of Passion - Track #11
Cradle - Instrumental Yanni To The One Who Knows
Father - New Baby Boy Anne Murray Danny’s Song
Father / Son Crosby, Stills, Nash And Young Teach Your Children
Father / Son Soundtrack - Rhythm Of The Pride Lands (The Lion King) He Lives In You
Father / Son Relationship Harry Chapin Cat’s In The Cradle
Father / Son Relationship Mike And The Mechanics The Living Years
Grieving Seal Prayer For The Dying
Grieving - Acceptance Of Death Linda Ronstadt Good-Bye My Friend
Grieving - Acceptance Of Death Mariah Carey And Boyz II Men One Sweet Day
Grieving - Acceptance Of Death Soundtrack -
Boys On The Side - Melissa Etheridge I Take You With Me
Grieving - Acceptance Of Death Soundtrack -
Casper - Jordon Hill Remember Me This Way
Grieving - Aids Streets Of Philadelphia Bruce Springsteen
(Continued ...)

PRODUCTIVE QUESTIONS / COMMENTS
1. ACTIVE LISTENING (REPEAT BACK KEY WORDS)
• “WHAT I’M HEARING IS ...”
2. WHAT’S AT RISK?
3. CLARIFYING
• WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU?
• WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE FOR YOU?
I want to be loved. What does that mean to you, “to be loved”?
It means to be held and accepted for who I am. How do you mean, “who you are”?
I mean for my good and bad traits. What do you mean by bad traits?
My addictions. What does an addiction look like to you?
Like when I masturbate. What do you mean by masturbation?
I’m so ashamed (Cries).
4. FOCUSING (GOING FOR SPECIFICS)
• WHO?
• WHAT?
• HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
• WHEN?
I’m mad. Who are you mad at?
Dad. What about your dad?
He is crazy. How is he crazy?
He hit me. How / where did he hit you?
With his fist in my mouth. When? How old were you?
I was 6. What was happening before he hit you?
I was just playing (Cries).
5. VALIDATING
I’m scared. You look scared to me.
I do not want to do this. This seems very hard for you.
I’m afraid I’ll start to cry. That’s right. You might cry if you do this.
And I’ll never stop. I’ll bet you could cry forever.
6. PACING / MIRRORING (EXAGGERATE WHERE APPROPRIATE)
I’m really pissed. You’re fucking angry!
Yeah. It’s my goddam wife. That bitch really pisses you off!
Yeah. She’s always telling me what a jerk I am. She’s always ragging on you!
I hate her. You wish she’d just die!
No! I’m so scared she’s gonna leave me.



This stuff just grosses me out! UGH!

i've tried to detach myself from this argument, but have to say a few more things. if you want to keep me in this conversation, i'm asking for respect . . . the contempt, personal attacks, and comparing me to a nazi etc does not warm me to participation.
i stated in a previous post that i'll take your criticisms seriously, which i am/will. i'm hopeful that you'll take a sincere moment to consider whether there could be a grain of truth in what i have to say.
mkp takes extraordinary measures to assure that the men that come through the weekend are there by choice. they all know they'll be challenged. it's an initiation. again, much emphasis is placed on not projecting our unresolved stuff on to these men. as i've stated, in over 20 years of doing transformational work, this is the only organization that is strongly committed to and actively creates processes that prevent tha kind of projectiont. that's why it works so well to help men get some freedom from what's not working FOR THEM.
mkp does some teaching about how to access, express, and contain feelings (which most men, at least in the u.s., are completely under-educated about) but does not try to get men to believe anything. instead to help them create the life THEY want.
also, there is very little that could be considered "native american" on the training.
also, the name i'm using in this dialogue is part of my last name.
also, i am part native american as are a number of other men in mkp.
also, i've had the honor of dancing traditional native american dances for many years (in which i've gone without food or water for 3-4 days at a time). the fasting part of initiation is ancient and it's done with respect. the food situation on the mkp weekend is done respectfully as well, is a choice, and doesn't even come close to an actual fast. It’s an opportunity to eat healthy for 48hrs and not over eat as a self-medication so there is a chance for some healing.
i suspect that i could address every point you make and there will be an infinate amount of other uninformed assumptions you'll make. so, it seems futile here.
maybe you're wrong (can you even imagine the possibility?).
maybe mkp is the healthiest (although imperfect) and couragous group out there trying to change the world (which is at war in so many ways, as i'm sure you can see . . . and at war mostly because folks are angry, hurt, unconscious and see everybody else as their enemy).
this dialogue will not affect mkp growth in any noticable way. but i'm sad that a few men will read the protocol, your uninformed comments, misinterpret the spirit of the work (as you have) and will have their experience lessened or corrupted. i'm confident that the imagined and fantasized abuses that were posted here will be disregarded by anyone that is not “mind-controlled” by this site.

AGAIN, FOR THE BENIFIT OF ANYONE WHO HAS NOT BEEN CORRUPTED BY THIS CULT OF FOLKS WHO ARE SPENDING THEIR LIFE LOOKING FOR CULTS, THE SEXUAL ALLEGATIONS AND OTHER ACCUSATIONS OF ABUSE BY MKP ARE FALSE AND ARE COMPLETELY COUNTER TO THE CARING, MATURE ATMOSPHERE AT THESE WEEKENDS.

i'd like to let you know that your suggestion that i'll "need support" is received as a caring comment, but tells me we are on different planets of reality. i'll consider your points but, mkp is one of many areas of support i have in my life. i'll be moving more deeply into that work and lovingly inviting others as well.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer

Quote
BearSong
i've tried to detach myself from this argument, but have to say a few more things. if you want to keep me in this conversation, i'm asking for respect . . . the contempt, personal attacks, and comparing me to a nazi etc does not warm me to participation.

You are always free to comment, it is welcome, as I have said.
I still see no personal attacks. And I have certainly not compared YOU to a nazi, but your organisation, I believe uses similar techniques, yes. Do not take that personally - I can't understand why you have.

Quote
BearSong
i stated in a previous post that i'll take your criticisms seriously, which i am/will. i'm hopeful that you'll take a sincere moment to consider whether there could be a grain of truth in what i have to say.

There is more than a grain of truth in what you have said, before this post and in this post. Doesn't mean I agree with your truth though. I seem to hold a different truth. And I do that in total respect to yours. I think I debate a little harder than you and a few others. Sorry, but I really do think we Brits use this language a little different - and I say that from doing political speech analysis.

Quote
BearSong
mkp takes extraordinary meas ... .... rks so well to help men get some freedom from what's not working FOR THEM.

MKP can be seen to do an amazing amount of good, yes. Of course. All LGAT's in some principle do good. Jung meant well, as did some others that have influenced these principles. But please, Bearsong, let me explain something. I have nothing against New Age beliefs, I have studied Buddhism for a few years now. I do not consider myself a buddhist though. What I believe is wrong with MKP is that I believe the 3 originators of this ideology (and it IS an ideology - I hope we agree there) simply appropriated various rituals (fair enough) but only to mask the Nuero-linguistic and est-based 'technologies'. So I am sitting on the fence. I do believe the 'intitian' is, in principle, great. I just think this is misguided. For one, it preaches a overtly sexist ideology that I am not comfortable with.

Quote
BearSong
mkp does some teaching about how to access, express, and contain feelings (which most men, at least in the u.s., are completely under-educated about) but does not try to get men to believe anything. instead to help them create the life THEY want.
also, there is very little that could be considered "native american" on the training.

Quote
BearSong
also, the name i'm using in this dialogue is part of my last name.
also, i am part native american as are a number of other men in mkp.
also, i've had the honor of dancing traditional native american dances for many years (in which i've gone without food or water for 3-4 days at a time). the fasting part of initiation is ancient and it's done with respect. the food situation on the mkp weekend is done respectfully as well, is a choice, and doesn't even come close to an actual fast. It’s an opportunity to eat healthy for 48hrs and not over eat as a self-medication so there is a chance for some healing.

Again, I have no issue here - if only you were this open initially friend. We can build a dialogue now I believe. At the risk of repeating previous posts, each different 'cell' will of course interpret the protocols and priniciple differently. I do not accuse MKP of blanket this or that, except in an ideological and methodological sense.

I must say that I do not believe that enough information is given before people go on this weekend - perhaps you yourself tell more than is on the leaflet, and if you do, I respect that. It is the potential damage that LGATs can do that freaks me out - a few of my friends lost their minds through choice - on drugs. Its all the same.

Quote
BearSong
i suspect that i could address every point you make and there will be an infinate amount of other uninformed assumptions you'll make. so, it seems futile here.

I wish you would address each issue, and I hope that you won't project your own assumptions of our assumptions of you onto us for much longer - thats very negative Bearsong. I really am sorry we got off on the foot we did - Everyone on this board has been effected by this group - positively or negatively - both with TRUTH. You know I have read all your literature, do you think I am lying in that?

Quote
BearSong
maybe you're wrong (can you even imagine the possibility?).

Bearsong, to believe I may be wrong is one of the Principles of My Order!

Quote
BearSong
maybe mkp is the healthiest (although imperfect) and couragous group out there trying to change the world (which is at war in so many ways, as i'm sure you can see . . . and at war mostly because folks are angry, hurt, unconscious and see everybody else as their enemy).

But maybe its not? Maybe it is a ruse? Maybe it is a deception such as the one GWB has pulled over the world?

Quote
BearSong
this dialogue will not affect mkp growth in any noticable way.

It will not, but it will allow those who have been affected negatively a space to bond and have a community.

Quote
BearSong
but i'm sad that a few men will read the protocol, your uninformed comments, misinterpret the spirit of the work (as you have) and will have their experience lessened or corrupted. i'm confident that the imagined and fantasized abuses that were posted here will be disregarded by anyone that is not “mind-controlled” by this site.

I'm pleased they will have a more informed and free choice. Certainly the questionnaire shows that they are targeting those who could be seen to be 'depressed'.

Quote
BearSong
AGAIN, FOR THE BENIFIT OF ANYONE WHO HAS NOT BEEN CORRUPTED BY THIS CULT OF FOLKS WHO ARE SPENDING THEIR LIFE LOOKING FOR CULTS, THE SEXUAL ALLEGATIONS AND OTHER ACCUSATIONS OF ABUSE BY MKP ARE FALSE AND ARE COMPLETELY COUNTER TO THE CARING, MATURE ATMOSPHERE AT THESE WEEKENDS.

UN declaration of human rights. NO arguments here.
I again quote Voltaire! "I disagree with everything you are saying, but I defend your right to say it with my life"

Quote
BearSong
i'd like to let you know that your suggestion that i'll "need support" is received as a caring comment, but tells me we are on different planets of reality. i'll consider your points but, mkp is one of many areas of support i have in my life. i'll be moving more deeply into that work and lovingly inviting others as well.

I do care Bearsong - why don't you trust me there? My mistrust in the organisation doesn't mean a mistrust in you. Your original post is as if a different person wrote it - reread it. Good change.

Quote
BearSong
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer

It is investigation that has brought about our differing opinions BearSong. I hope you take the time and read some threads on this forum about Landmark especially.

For example - Bearsong - are you aware that you have signed ALL legal rights away? Look at a post I wrote above, and one on the landmark page I found after that.

I do hope that, whilst we may disagree, we can know 'look each other in the eye'.

I used to hear that phrase thrown around, and always wondered who it came from.

Who is Herbert Spencer?

[www.lewrockwell.com]
[www.fordham.edu]
[oll.libertyfund.org]

It's always nice to know where an organization actually gets its ideas.
Keep up the 12-stepping, brah.

I would love to see your credentials maybe a photo, Native Americans are not hard to mistake!

I would have to say that maybe a hand full this group have some Indian Blood, but not too many, because most of my people feel this an insult!

Also you say ......."also, the name i'm using in this dialogue is part of my last name.
also, i am part native american as are a number of other men in mkp.

Are you part enough to prove this?? Seem everybody who has a drop of Indian try to claim this race.
Recognized by a tribe? Have credentials? If you are What Tribe? I am of (The lake of the woods) The Ontario Metis Aboriginal Association!



And you also say "also, there is very little that could be considered "native american" on the training[/color:841265d617]" !

What part is very little the drums, the prayers to mother earth, the dance, the names or the Sage!