Well, see here. in the US of A, we believe in freedom and liberty and all of those wonderful things.
That's why it's considered declasse (in some circles), to criticize the behavior of groups like these.
After all, they have the right to peddle any kind of BS they want to, and who are we, the consuming public, to say it's wrong?
Let the buyer beware is the rule of thumb around here.


(This is intended to be ironic. I'm taking a poke at those who say "we're not as bad as those other groups", and "so we make a few mistakes, look at the good stuff we do".)

I found a website weeks ago. It was from the Lakota Indian Tribe. They were up in arms (no pun intended) over a men's new age group using their traditions. Matter of fact on this website, they DECLARED WAR on any group using their traditions for profit.

Of course their "war" was to repudiate such men's new age group.

Google Lakota Indians + men's new age group, or Declaration of War. I will try to find it again, and post a reference to it.

Obviously seedjoe cannot hold his own in a logical discussion of MKP. Could it be because they cannot hold up against logic?

just a final note to let you all know that i'm choosing to take your criticisms seriously. some of your judgements, especially the few presented without all the rage, have provoked some re-evaluation for me, and as an active participant in mkp, i will be looking with a different eye at the processes. i don't have the sense that any of you are open to anything that resembles respectful dialogue, so i'll be putting my energy and time elsewhere.

This document dates from 1993. I began collecting responses to the document in 1996. The document, to the best of recollection, was posted in 1995. You can also read a response to the declaration by Hyemeyohsts (Wolf) Storm posted on Yahoo Groups. There is also an article by Valerie Taliman on the declaration. There is also an subsequent message from Wilmer Mesteth posted on the Whispers in the WindsOur Red Earth Observations On Internet Exploiters Of American Indian Spirituality. A copy of this document is also posted on the American Indian Cultural Support website and The People's Path website.

The original statement was passed on June 10, 1993 at the Lakota Summit V, an international gathering of US and Canadian Lakota, Dakota and Nakota Nations. It was also published in the Eyapaha, a newsletter from Manderson, SD on June 10, 1993, in Volume 2, Issue 22. The document subsequently appeared in Ward Churchill's Indians R Us?: Culture and Genocide in Native North America (1994: 273-7). Electronically, as far as I can tell, the statement first appeared on the internet in a message on the Usenet "soc.culture.native" discussion group on Sun, 22 Aug 1993 18:40:05 GMT.




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Declaration of War Against Exploiters of Lakota Spirituality
WHEREAS we are the conveners of an ongoing series of comprehensive forums on the abuse and exploitation of Lakota spirituality; and
WHEREAS we represent the recognized traditional spiritual leaders, traditional elders, and grassroots advocates of the Lakota people; and

WHEREAS for too long we have suffered the unspeakable indignity of having our most precious Lakota ceremonies and spiritual practices desecrated, mocked and abused by non-Indian "wannabes," hucksters, cultists, commercial profiteers and self-styled "New Age shamans" and their followers; and

WHEREAS with horror and outrage we see this disgraceful expropriation of our sacred Lakota traditions has reached epidemic proportions in urban areas throughout the country; and

WHEREAS our precious Sacred Pipe is being desecrated through the sale of pipestone pipes at flea markets, powwows, and "New Age" retail stores; and

WHEREAS pseudo-religious corporations have been formed to charge people money for admission into phony "sweatlodges" and "vision quest" programs; and

WHEREAS sacrilegious "sundances" for non-Indians are being conducted by charlatans and cult leaders who promote abominable and obscene imitations of our sacred Lakota sundance rites; and

WHEREAS non-Indians have organized themselves into imitation "tribes," assigning themselves make-believe "Indian names" to facilitate their wholesale expropriation and commercialization of our Lakota traditions; and

WHEREAS academic disciplines have sprung up at colleges and universities institutionalizing the sacrilegious imitation of our spiritual practices by students and instructors under the guise of educational programs in "shaminism;" and

WHEREAS non-Indian charlatans and "wannabes" are selling books that promote the systematic colonization of our Lakota spirituality; and

WHEREAS the television and film industry continues to saturate the entertainment media with vulgar, sensationalist and grossly distorted representations of Lakota spirituality and culture which reinforce the public's negative stereotyping of Indian people and which gravely impair the self-esteem of our children; and

WHEREAS individuals and groups involved in "the New Age Movement," in "the men's movement," in "neo-paganism" cults and in "shamanism" workshops all have exploited the spiritual traditions of our Lakota people by imitating our ceremonial ways and by mixing such imitation rituals with non-Indian occult practices in an offensive and harmful pseudo-religious hodgepodge; and

WHEREAS the absurd public posturing of this scandalous assortment of psuedo-Indian charlatans, "wannabes," commercial profiteers, cultists and "New Age shamans" comprises a momentous obstacle in the struggle of traditional Lakota people for an adequate public appraisal of the legitimate political, legal and spiritual needs of real Lakota people; and

WHEREAS this exponential exploitation of our Lakota spiritual traditions requires that we take immediate action to defend our most precious Lakota spirituality from further contamination, desecration and abuse;


THEREFORE WE RESOLVE AS FOLLOWS:
1. We hereby and henceforth declare war against all persons who persist in exploiting, abusing and misrepresenting the sacred traditions and spiritual practices of our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.
2. We call upon all our Lakota, Dakota and Nakota brothers and sisters from reservations, reserves, and traditional communities in the United States and Canada to actively and vocally oppose this alarming take-over and systematic destruction of our sacred traditions.

3. We urge our people to coordinate with their tribal members living in urban areas to identify instances in which our sacred traditions are being abused, and then to resist this abuse, utilizing whatever specific tactics are necessary and sufficient --for example demonstrations, boycotts, press conferences, and acts of direct intervention.

4. We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota people to take action to prevent our own people from contributing to and enabling the abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders; for, as we all know, there are certain ones among our own people who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole.

5. We assert a posture of zero-tolerance for any "white man's shaman" who rises from within our own communities to "authorize" the expropriation of our ceremonial ways by non-Indians; all such "plastic medicine men" are enemies of the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people.

6. We urge traditional people, tribal leaders, and governing councils of all other Indian nations, to join us in calling for an immediate end to this rampant exploitation of our respective American Indian sacred traditions by issuing statements denouncing such abuse; for it is not the Lakota, Dakota and Nakota people alone whose spiritual practices are being systematically violated by non-Indians.

7. We urge all our Indian brothers and sisters to act decisively and boldly in our present campaign to end the destruction of our sacred traditions, keeping in mind our highest duty as Indian people: to preserve the purity of our precious traditions for our future generations, so that our children and our children's children will survive and prosper in the sacred manner intended for each of our respective peoples by our Creator.

Wilmer Stampede Mesteth; (Oglala Lakota); Traditional Spiritual Leader & Lakota Culture Instructor; Oglala Lakota College, Pine Ridge, South Dakota

Darrell Standing Elk; (Sicangu Lakota); President, Center for the SPIRIT, San Fancisco, California, & Pine Ridge, South Dakota

Phyllis Swift Hawk; (Kul Wicasa Lakota); Tiospaye Wounspe Waokiye; Wanblee, South Dakota



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This page is managed by
Rev. Raymond A. Bucko, S.J.
of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology
at Creighton University.
E-Mail: bucko@creighton.edu


Page Last Updated June 6, 2005

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Quote
bonnie
Well, see here. in the US of A, we believe in freedom and liberty and all of those wonderful things.

Hmmmmm - I'll leave politics aside for now - I'll just say that maybe it's a language thing ;o)

Quote
bonnie
That's why it's considered declasse (in some circles), to criticize the behavior of groups like these.

And I/we have the liberty to criticise!

Quote
bonnie
After all, they have the right to peddle any kind of BS they want to, and who are we, the consuming public, to say it's wrong?

Again, I'll try and leave politics aside, but I would never class the UK as an island of 'consumers', citizens (well, subjects really), yes.

We are everything to say its wrong - regardless of our capitalist pigeon-hole! We are the people!

Quote
bonnie
Let the buyer beware is the rule of thumb around here.

Let the public sphere debate is the rule over here... or used to be... seems we (or the french, more correctly) gave you democracy - you gave us capitalism - damn.

Quote
bonnie
What I can't understand is why people pay for this crap, over and over and over. There must be some good money in the LGAT business.

People do because they are desperate to be 'better people', there is so much pressure by the corporations/capitalists to exist in a certain way. Well, the way they want us to exist is not natural. We are animals that THINK. not machines that don't. The film Equilibrium explores this in a neat way.

Namaste to all those who are wanting to break through their veil of ideology.

RU?ing:

Please, you couldn't possibly have taken me seriously.
I mean, I was being pretty heavy-handed with the sarcasm.

I'm on the side of the cult-busters. I've been tricked with my own desire to be a "better person", too.
Just for the record, I think the information you have been posting is some of the most fascinating stuff I've read here.

The poor guy who reads rage into all our posts must really have it rough in the real world.
If I was that sensitive, I wouldn't expose myself to this website.

My mottos:
Question everything.
Don't buy the product if they won't let you feel the goods.
Always speak out against deception and trickery.

This link is way too much to read, but you can read the intro a get a pretty good sense of the dissertation.

[72.14.203.104]

sorry but I don't know how to hyperlink so you'll have to paste the link to follow it

Quote
bonnie
RU?ing:

Please, you couldn't possibly have taken me seriously.
I mean, I was being pretty heavy-handed with the sarcasm.

You didn't take me seriously too?! I was being sarcastic! Cross-continental confusion?! x We're (almost) as postmodern as you the states!

Everyday I'm making myself a better person, by talking to myself, my family (especially my mother!) and my friends. All for [b:e999d4beb4]free[/b:e999d4beb4]. I have no 'wounds', because, like you, I process (question) things at the time they happen. I sometimes wish I would stop questioning, but seemingly I can't. C'et la vie!

Quote
BearSong
just a final note to let you all know that i'm choosing to take your criticisms seriously.

That is very good of you to let us know. In all seriousness.

Quote
BearSong
some of your judgements, especially the few presented without all the rage, have provoked some re-evaluation for me,

I question your perception of rage here. And if there is, then that is a good reason to re-evaluate. But, Bearsong - though I would prefer an Anglo-Saxon /Latin derived name to call you - I understand that it may have been hard for you to first of all read some comments, then digest them, and now come to your new conclusion.

Quote
BearSong
and as an active participant in mkp, i will be looking with a different eye at the processes.

That is all I, for one, ask. Critical thinking.

Quote
BearSong
i don't have the sense that any of you are open to anything that resembles respectful dialogue,

That is a shame. Please, Bearsong, look at this from our perspective. You post on an anti-LGAT thread with a post that go against a lot of valid points raised - I accept not all post on here are 100% valid). You now swing to the other side. Neither 'camp' has given much room for 'respectful dialogue' in that case.

And as a linguist, respectful dialogue is a tricky ideal - especially in a democracy with a plurality of views and beliefs.

I do hope you post again - truly. I believe you may need some support and reassurance during your period of critical awareness. And all this is said seriously, lord only knows if you'll believe me.

Quote
BearSong
so i'll be putting my energy and time elsewhere.

Good luck to you.

Ru?ing:

Cross-continental confusion; I like that one!

Yeah, here at the epicenter of the enlightenment-for-sale industry, some of us have taken an oath to never pay for something that can be gotten for free, in fact, can [b:8cfbd81a73]only[/b:8cfbd81a73] be gotten for free, when you think about it.

This (the MKP) is an amazingly active little topic, though, and seems to evoke strong emotions for many, especially those who enjoy the "benefits" of the programming.

***************

Not surprising that the strongest emotional response here is from a member of a profession that holds an unspoken belief that the more the patient pays for therapy, the more he will get out of it. (He can deny that if he wants, too. I'm sure not all therapists believe it, anyway.)

***************

From what I have experienced, one of the big problems with many of these new self-growth programs is the fact that complex psychological theory is being put into use by people who have little or no training or background in psychotherapy.

Psychotherapy itself, in fact, is a highly theoretical discipline, one that lends itself to much bumbling and abuse. These fast-food type therapeutic programs have the additional disadvantage of being facilitated by people who have very little knowledge of or experience in the field.

I realize that I am generalizing here, but I've seen some very deviant behavior go on in the setting of personal growth programs. (I've only gone to the ones you don't have to pay for, though.)

This is not to say that there is not a need for a movement towards self-knowledge, conscious behavior, and self-restraint. I just seriously doubt that self-help that is commodified, packaged, and sold for a price on the open market is an effective means of addressing the problems of modern life.

******************

I checked out the link to the dissertation (posted above). Looks interesting, and i plan to attempt to read it all later. Maybe a little in-depth investigation of the personal-growth-for-sale industry wouldn't be a bad thing.