No attender, that testimony alone is not enough, I agree. I didn't mena to imply that anyone who stays at TP devalues Pastor Jackie's testimony. But making excuses for the things that happens, calling her testimony rumor or speculation does! Saying that you doubt that the abuse happens b/c you yourself have never experienced it does. Or even just saying that it *might* happen, but it doesn't happen often, or excusing it, b/c it hasn't happened to you, that does devalue her testimony, and that of others. If it were hers alone, I suppose that one could over look it, or assume that it's been exagerated (however, that would seem silly to me, given that it would be out of character) but hers seems to be the same as that of at least 100 others who have chosen to leave TP for the same reasons. How can you over look THAT? How can you call that speculation? (not you personally, but you generally.....I actually believe you, attender, are on this journey and looking for answers, I pray tht you won't give up until you get them!)

God bless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 09:32PM by Brokenhearted.

Hi tpcwocattender,

A quick Google search came up with pages of information.

Word of Faith Error
By John C. Orlando, Jr.

Intro

If you were to poll Christians and ask them whether or not they believed that God was sovereign, I am quite sure that the overwhelming majority would reply with a resounding “Amen!” However, when we begin to explore what is meant by the word “sovereignty,” and the Biblical concept of it, many Christians discover that they really do not understand its meaning nor its implications, and very often recoil at the teaching of it. One only need listen to what is coming forth from many pulpits today to realize that the vast percentage of the Church has long since compromised this essential and foundational doctrine, and has replaced it with a humanized Gospel that dethrones God and glorifies man.

I begin this article about the Word of Faith movement by mentioning the sovereignty of God because I believe that this fundamental doctrine is completely undermined by Word of Faith Theology. This is critical when we understand that the sovereignty of God is, as A.W. Pink described it, “…the supremacy of God, the kingship of God, the godhood of God…it is to declare that He is Most High, doing according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth…” (reference his book The Sovereignty of God, p. 19, emphasis mine).

I personally came head-to-head with both the sovereignty of God and Word of Faith theology at about the same exact time. Suffice it to say those two things don’t mix. The year was 1999, and I had just been ordained into the Gospel Ministry at the Full Gospel/Pentecostal church I was a member of. In the months immediately preceding my ordination, and the months following, I had really begun to examine the matters of the sovereignty of God and was being drawn to what has Reformed Theology ("Reformed" referring to the Protestant Reformation). Today, Reformed theology goes by the nickname of “Calvinism”, named after the leading theologian of the Reformation, John Calvin. To read articles I’ve written on the topic, go here: www.geocities.com/johnandursula/musings.

While I was in the process of digesting this relentlessly God-centered theology (i.e., Calvinism), our church began to teach a series on the topic of faith. The material was drawn from the leader of the Word of Faith movement, Kenneth Hagin. The Word of Faith movement also goes by the label of “Name it and Claim it” which is probably more familiar to people. Advocates of this heretical movement comprise virtually a who’s who in terms of the preachers who are televised on “Christian” Television stations, such as the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which gives much air time to such Word of Faith gurus like Kenneth Copeland, Fredrick Price, T.D. Jakes, Jesse Duplantis, Creflo Dollar, Rod Parsley, Marilyn Hickey, just to name a few. This being the case, I was already familiar with Word of Faith teaching, and was strongly opposed to it.

As the phrase “name it and claim it” suggests, one of the foundational elements of Word of Faith theology is that we possess the ability to get whatever it is we desire through our words; not just any words, but “faith-filled words.” All we have to do is speak our faith-filled words (otherwise known as a “positive confession”), and through the power of those words we can create our own reality. The basic idea is that faith is a force, and the words we speak are the containers that release that force (see Christianity In Crisis, by Hank Hanegraaff, p. 62). As a matter of fact, the things we say actually create the reality we are in. If we speak negative words (i.e., make negative confessions), like “I think I am sick with the flu…” then we have just spoken that sickness into existence, and it is most probable that we will then get sick with the flu.

The old adage “you are what you eat” is basically revised to say, “you are what you say.” All of this is really just the beginning of the errors to be found in Word of Faith doctrine. As one can probably already discern, Word of Faith theology leaves little room for the sovereignty of God. Where Reformed Theology is relentlessly God-centered, Word of Faith Theology is relentlessly man-centered. In point of fact, it is man, not God, who is sovereign. I realize that is quite a claim to make, but it is one that I believe is easily demonstrated. It is not my intent to go into any detail concerning these matters. Instead, I will simply touch on some of the key components of Word of Faith Theology, make some brief comments, and then refer you the reader to articles that I, and others, have written on these matters. I believe that it will become quite apparent just from my brief analysis here that the claims I’ve made to this point are true. Here then is a brief overview of the basic tenets and errors of Word of Faith teaching:

God-Like Faith

Well, as I mentioned above, at the same time I was ordained, our church began to teach a series on the topic of faith which was drawn directly from the Word of Faith movement. The teacher of the class wanted us to make the following confession everyday: "I'm a believer; I'm not a doubter. I have a measure of God kind of faith. I have a measure of the kind of faith that created the worlds in the beginning. I have mountain moving faith!"

Notice the words “a measure of God kind of faith…the kind of faith that created the worlds…” This is the very heart of Word of Faith theology. In order to prove this statement, the teacher claimed that Mark 11:22, which states "Have faith in God..." actually reads, "Have God-like faith..." in the Greek. The implications of this translation are vast. What the verse then asserts, and which they (Word of Faith teachers) maintain is that God Himself has to exercise faith. When He created the universe, it was an act of faith when He spoke it into existence. They then reason that since we are created in the image of God, and God is a faith being, and through His faith-filled words He created the universe, we too are endowed with the same kind of power. All we have to do is exercise our “God-kind of faith” and speak, and by our "God-like" faith, we will be able to “speak things into existence.” This is the foundation from which all of the errors found in the Word of Faith system flow. (Note: No one is disputing the fact that God spoke the universe into existence, and that even now He sustains all things by the Word of His power (Heb 1:3). The objection is that this is an act of faith on God’s part, which the Word of Faith teachers claim).

One of the favorite mantras of Word of Faith practitioners, drawn from Romans 4:17 is “call those things that are not as though they were…” The idea is that we must continue to speak those things that we desire (which have yet come to pass) as though they have already come to pass. By doing this we can have confidence that the things we desire and haven’t come to pass will certainly come to pass in the very near future. Errors abound in this line of reasoning. First, there is the problem of the text itself. When one examines Romans 4:17 and the context that it is found in, one thing becomes immediately clear: it isn’t we who “call those things that are not as though they were” rather, it is God. The only One who possesses the power to call those things that are not as though they were, and to “speak things into existence” is God. Man is utterly incapable of doing those things because that is the prerogative of Deity alone. Romans 4:17 does not say that it is we who “call those things that are not as though they were”, but God. The verse actually reads, “God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did…” Only God is omniscient and omnipotent, and as such only God has the power to do such things. For mere mortals to even begin to think that they could do that which only God Himself can do is both the height of presumption and the height of heresy. Not only are we incapable of doing those things but what makes us so arrogant to think that we know what the absolute best thing is to speak into existence in any given situation? I’ve also frequently wondered why it is that those who claim to have this “power” never “speak” world peace into existence, or speak into existence the abolishment of famine, racism, homelessness, death, sorrow, or pain. If they have, then they have failed miserably. What they are usually found “speaking into existence” is those things that will benefit them temporarily: health and wealth (what some of their teachers describe as having “Rolls Royce faith”).

Given then that the entire construct of Word of Faith theology is built largely around this one verse (Mark 11:22), and the fact that they try to examine the “real” meaning of it in the Greek (which none are Greek scholars, by the way), let us then turn to the Greek scholars to see if the Word of Faith teachers are correct. According to the finest Greek scholarship, there is absolutely no basis for translating that verse "God-like faith". Greek scholars say that not only is it incorrect to translate the verse "God-like faith", but it is preposterous: Renowned Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, in his books A Short Grammar of the Greek Testament (pp. 227-228) and A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (p. 500), very adequately shows that the phrase is not to be translated in the subjective genitive (meaning that the noun is the subject of the action - or that God is the subject of faith) such as "have the faith of God", but is to be translated in the objective genitive (meaning that the noun is the object of the action - that God is the object of faith). He goes on to insist that translating in the subjective genitive is preposterous. He says, "it is not the faith that God has, but the faith of which God is the object."

Robertson is not the only Greek scholar to hold this view. Whole teams of Bible translators reject the interpretation suggested by Word of Faith advocates as demonstrated by the fact that not one of the most highly regarded English translations translates Mark 11:22 as “Have God-like faith,” or “Have the God-kind of faith…” (see the KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, and NASB for examples). Even the popular paraphrase The Living Bible translates the verse, “If you only have faith in God…”, and a Roman Catholic translation (The New American Bible) translates the verse, “Have faith in God…” Are we to believe that all of these translation teams, each composed of different scholars from every major segment of Christianity, from different periods in Church history, are wrong, and the Word of Faith advocates, among whom there are none who would be considered Greek scholars, are correct?! I hardly think so.

Faith

Faith is not some mystical force whereby we manipulate God into doing our bidding, rather, it is an absolute trust in God that He is able to do what His Word says, and it is also trusting in God even when the answer we get isn’t exactly what we would have thought or wanted. Manipulating God is bad enough, but Word of Faith theology is even worse than that. It is isn’t so much manipulating God as it is completely ignoring Him, as the individual confronts the circumstances of his life by speaking to those circumstances, using the name of God and Jesus as magical code words to be used at the whim of the individual to bring about whatsoever he desires. And if we suffer in any degree, whether by sickness, or persecution, etc., it is because we have a lack of faith!

Faith is not a force, and we do not have the power to create our own reality. That is the prerogative of God, and of God alone. There can be dire consequences when we lose sight of that, and as the saying goes, ideas have consequences. Hank Hannegraff, in his book Christianity in Crisis tells of Larry and Lucy Parker, adherents of Word of Faith teaching. Their son, Wesley had diabetes, but they refused to give him insulin because they had been warned about the dangers of making a negative confession. Thus, they continued to “positively confess” Wesley’s healing until the time of his death. Even after his death, the Parker’s, undaunted in their “faith,” conducted resurrection services rather than a funeral. Eventually, the Parker’s were convicted of manslaughter and child abuse. I have written some thoughts on what I believe is a more God-centered understanding of what Biblical faith is. You can view that here if you like: www.geocities.com/johnandursula/musingsonfaith.

Health

The bold claim by Word of Faith adherents is that God’s will for the Christian is to live in perfect health and prosperity. With regards to health, the question is not whether or not God heals, but whether or not God physically heals everyone now. The Biblical answer to that question is no, and the reason it is no is because we all live in a cursed creation, where disease, decay, and death are the order of nature, so to speak, and every one of us is subject to that order (Rom 8:18-22). The only escape will be when Christ returns, or we die, whichever one comes first. As it is now, we all live in a fallen creation, and we all experience first-hand the effects of that fall. One of the effects is that our bodies decay in various ways, and as a result they become diseased (i.e., the body or one of its parts develops a condition that impairs it from performing vital functions). This can take many forms, such as bouts of the flu, muscle shrinkage (which happens to everyone), arthritis, diabetes, clogged veins, cancer, impaired vision (I marvel at the preachers who tell people that God guarantees perfect “divine health” and encourages people to just have enough faith to receive their healing, yet the preacher himself must wear his eyeglasses just to be able to see the congregation he’s addressing! With the advent of the contact lens though, this dilemma has been solved for these disingenuous purveyors of falsehood), etc.

It is true that our physical bodies will undergo a complete transformation (healing if you will), but again, that will not occur until our glorification at Christ’s return--that's when we can say "everyone is physically healed;" when the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality. It is only then that there will be no more suffering (1 Cor 15:42-58; Rev 21:4).


One of the key texts quoted to prove that physical healing is guaranteed is Isaiah 53:5, “...and by His stripes we are healed.” Unfortunately, this verse is taken far out of context. Two of the most basic principles in sound "hermeneutics" (the art and science of interpreting the Bible) is that we must interpret Scripture with Scripture, and we must always interpret passages in their context. When we apply that very basic principle to the verses in question, it is absolutely clear that physical healing is not in view. Rather, it is the healing of the soul, which has been corrupted and held in bondage and captivity to sin. The verse in question (Isaiah 53:5-"...and by His stripes we are healed.") is given its meaning first by the immediate context that the verse is found in (verses 4 - 6), and secondly the meaning is brought to light even more clearly when we interpret Scripture with Scripture, by seeing how, for example, the Apostle Peter uses this verse. First, let's examine the immediate context of the passage:

"4Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

What is in view here is the substitutionary work of atonement by the Suffering Servant (Christ) on the behalf of His people. The "healing" mentioned is given in the context of the words “transgressions,” “iniquities,” and “chastisement for our peace.” This all has to do with the sin that has separated people from God and has placed them at enmity with Him. It is through Christ's work of atonement on the cross (i.e., His stripes) that we are now healed; that is, the "sickness" that caused spiritual death has now been removed (i.e., healed), that we may now experience peace (relationship) with the One whom we were previously at enmity with. Verse 6 further highlights this, saying that the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The immediate context then has to do with the substitutionary work of atonement, not of the healing of physical sickness (i.e., colds, cancer, or canker sores).

To further illustrate the meaning of the passage in question, we can turn to the New Testament, in the Book of 1 Peter. There, in Chapter 2, verse 24, the Apostle refers to that very passage in speaking not of temporal, physical healing, but of the substitutionary work of atonement by Christ on behalf of His people. Here is what it says, "who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed."

Peter goes on to further quote Isaiah in verse 25, "25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

It is important to see the context that Peter has used these verses. It comes at the end of Chapter 2, where he has spoken in detail concerning the topic of salvation and the need to live in a way that reflects that we are in fact His chosen people--a royal priesthood. Thus, if there were still doubt as to what Isaiah was referring to with the phrase "by His stripes we are healed," the Apostle spells it out here in no uncertain terms. That is the clear teaching of the Scripture in its context.


So, why is there still so much confusion over the text? Well, I believe most of the confusion is due to a misreading of a text in Matthew Chapter 8. There, we read of Jesus healing people, and Matthew points to the healings as a direct fulfillment of the passage in Isaiah 53:4. That particular verse (Isaiah 53:4) speaks of one important aspect of the ministry that the Messiah would have--He would be a healer. So, after recording various miraculous healings, Matthew then tells us in Chapter 8:16,17:

"16When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. 17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases."

Here you see Matthew finding in Jesus' ministry a direct fulfillment of what he saw as a Messianic prophecy. Matthew uses this method throughout his Gospel, where He records a certain activity or event in the life of Christ, then provides the OT passage that Christ fulfilled. Just a brief glance of the first few chapters of the book is enough to get the idea of what I'm saying.

He was telling his Jewish audience, "Look everybody, this Jesus performed things that only the Messiah could perform, and He did so in direct fulfillment of the Scriptures." But something very important is overlooked now. Notice, there is a period after the word "diseases." However, when you examine Isaiah 53:4, there is no period there. Instead, there is a a semi-colon, and the verse continues with a very important word that serves as a turning point in the passage. That word is the word "Yet." "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases; Yet, we consider Him stricken..." In other words, the Suffering Servant would be a healer, YET, He would still be despised by the people and would go to die for the iniquities of His people. That first part of Isaiah 53:4 then only speaks of one aspect that would mark the actual ministry of the Messiah, namely, that He would be a healer. It does not refer to Jesus' work of atonement on the cross, which is how the Word of Faith advocates take it to mean. For them, since those things are related, we now are guaranteed perfect Divine health and healing because that was one of the things that Jesus provided for on the cross. Thus, we are told, "Jesus died for your physical sickness, so all you have to do is have faith," and we are told this based on a misunderstanding of Isaiah 53:4-6 and Matthew 8:16-17. What Jesus provided for us was a perfect redemption, whereby He purchased us and the New Covenant in His Blood. What is guaranteed is that every single person He so purchases will, not might, experience justification, sanctification, and glorification, where we will one day be given new bodies that never get sick and will not be subject to corruption. For now, He keeps us in the physical creation, where we are subject to every sort of suffering, sickness included. But, because of all that Christ has done, those sufferings are nothing to be compared to the glory that will be revealed. As a matter of fact, even though we go suffer nakedness, peril, persecution, famine, etc., we are still more than conqueror in all of those things through Him who loved us! (Romans 8:28-39). What the Word of Faith and other Pentecostal theologies ignore at this point is that it has been granted to us both to believe and to suffer, and infirmities are all a part of that (Phil 1:19; 2 Cor 12).

So, here are some points of summary for this portion:

1. Ironically, Word of Faith teachers (as well as all Pentecostals) refer to this verse (Matt 8:17), and say, "see, by His stripes, we are healed." But wait a minute. Matthew doesn't quote that portion of Isaiah 53! Matthew quotes verse 4, not verse 5! Isaiah 53 gives us a snapshot into the ministry of the Suffering Servant. The first part is mentioned in verse 4: He would bear our griefs and carry our sorrows (i.e., He would take our infirmities and bear our sicknesses). This refers to the healing ministry of Christ, not the atonement! Verse 5, where we find the statement "by His stripes..." refers to something altogether different, namely, the atonement for our sins and the spiritual healing that results.

2. Matthew is pointing to this verse to call attention to a particular aspect of the ministry of the Messiah: He would be a healer. Again, Matthew constantly quoted from the OT to show where Christ actually fulfilled Messianic expectations. In the context of the passage, it simply asserts that Christ was healer, nothing more.

3. Thus, Isaiah 53:4 refers to the ministry Christ had while on earth, while Isaiah 53:5 - 6 speaks of His atoning work on the cross.

4. Nowhere in the Bible is temporal physical healing guaranteed. What is guaranteed is the complete forgiveness of sin and eternal life for those who place their trust in the finished work of Christ alone. And ultimate physical healing is guaranteed, but will not occur until we receive our resurrected bodies at the last day, and there will be no more suffering, crying, death, or disease.

5. God can and does miraculously intervene in some (many) instances to heal someone. It is perfectly acceptable to pray for physical healing in the here and now, and to expect God to respond in answer to prayer. However, to use these verses as the basis that God has willed to physically heal every single believer of every sickness in their temporal, physical lives is not only incorrect, but it actually misses the point of what actually took place on the cross.

6. We must keep in mind that every physical healing that occurs is temporal. Eventually, the person will develop some other ailment (since his body is steadily “tending toward disorder”), and eventually die. I have said on many occasions that a person can experience a miraculous healing, and maybe even many miraculous healings, and yet still miss Heaven. My point is that while a physical healing is exciting, and is to be prayed for, it is nevertheless not the best thing, or even the most important thing that can happen to a person. Instead of the self-absorbed, temporal focus of Word of Faith teaching, we need to have an eternal perspective, not a temporal one. The greatest healing a person can have is a spiritual healing, because the true sickness that truly causes death (not merely temporal, but eternal) is sin. Unless the disease of sin is cured, we have absolutely no hope.

Thus, with regard to healing, it is far better to take the attitude of the Scriptures that paint for us the portrait of a Sovereign God who has ordained all things, even sickness, for His own purposes. He has, in His Sovereignty, told us to pray for healing, but He has, in His Sovereignty, also told us that His grace is sufficient for us, and that we can still glory in our infirmities and weaknesses because we know that these light afflictions are nothing to be compared to the glory that is to be revealed (Rom 8:18). I believe that we must have faith that God will heal, but also have faith in His Divine prerogatives. In other words, I will trust God that He can, and indeed will heal me, but if He doesn’t I can know that He has a morally sufficient reason as to why He didn’t. The difficult thing is to rest in whatever purpose God has, even if that purpose is that I not be healed, and then try to use that infirmity as a means to bring glory to God. Joni Eareckson Tada serves as a tremendous example of this. Paralyzed at the age of 17 due to a diving accident, she sought her healing with tears. When it was not forthcoming, she proceeded to use her wheelchair as a vehicle for glorifying God. Multiplied numbers of persons have been impacted for Christ through her life’s work.

I must rest in the fact that God is God, and I am a creature that He has created for His own purposes. Just as the three Hebrew boys, I will trust Him that He can deliver me from the flames, but if not, then I can trust that His purposes are altogether good, and will bring Him the most glory. Word of Faith philosophy is vehemently opposed to all of that. They believe that we are healed, right now, and all we have to do is make a positive confession to appropriate that healing. The reason we are not healed is because we simply lacked the faith to be healed. I already cited the one example of how dire the consequences of this false teaching can be, when the Parker’s withheld medicine from the their child because they didn’t want to do anything that might detract from their “positive confession.” Any use or even mention of medicine is thought to be a severe hindrance and lack of faith. Someone has said, "healing is not a divine obligation, it is a divine gift." I think that really sums it up…the receiver of the gift can make no demands.

Wealth

In terms of financial prosperity, much of the same faulty reasoning is advanced by Word of Faith teachers. Every Christian should be rich, and physical prosperity is seen as a sign of God’s favor to the obedient. People are taught to positively confess good finances into existence, and much emphasis is placed on money. One of the chief means that a person can use to overcome financial hardship, or to prosper financially, is to “plant” seed into “good” soil: the seed that is planted is your money, and the “good” soil they have in mind is their own ministries! Preachers preach messages like “The Anointing to Get Your Wealth” (an actual title of a message I heard preached by prosperity guru Creflo Dollar). One passage after another is taken out of its context to prove that first, Christians should be rich, and second, that there is such an “anointing” available…all you have to do is activate it with your positive confession and seed planting (of course, the seed must be planted into their ministry)!

Once again, it is not difficult to see the misguided focus of Word of Faith teaching. I ask the reader to simply compare Word of Faith philosophy with these simple statements:

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” (Matt 6:19-21 NKJV).

“Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.” (Matt 6:33)

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” (Col 3:1-3)

“Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.” (1 John 2:15-17)

In contrast to Word of Faith Theology, the Bible teaches that God, the Creator of all things, and not the creature, is sovereign in all things. God is not obligated to heal or prosper anyone. Though God is under no obligation to heal or prosper us, He nevertheless, as yet another act of grace, chooses to do so to whomever He chooses, whenever He chooses. Everything good we have is to be ascribed wholly and completely to the kind intention of the will of an unspeakably gracious and sovereign God, and we must learn to be content in all things.

Much, much more can be said, but I will refer the reader to the numerous resources at the end of this article, where all these issues have been dealt with in more detail.



Little gods

As incredible as it may sound, Word of Faith teachers claim that we are just as divine as God Himself. Here are some quotes:

In his sermon tape, Following the Faith of Abraham, Kenneth Copeland teaches that God created Adam a god (having the same attributes as God Himself): "And Adam is as much like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus when He came into the earth. And I want you to know something ¾ Adam in the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh."

In The Force of Love, another sermon tape, Kenneth Copeland states, "You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Kenneth Hagin in Word of Faith magazine says, "You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth" (December 1980, p. 14).

Earl Paulk, Pastor of the Harvester Church in Atlanta, Georgia, in his work Satan Unmasked, explains it like this: "Adam and Eve were placed in the world as the seed and expression of God. Just as dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God has little gods; we have trouble comprehending this truth. Until we comprehend that we are little gods, we cannot manifest the kingdom of God" (p. 97).

Casey Treat, pastor of Seattle's Christian Faith Center, in his tape series Believing in Yourself says that we're exact duplicates of God: "I'm an exact duplicate of God! When God looks in the mirror He sees me! When I look in the mirror, I see God! Oh, hallelujah! You know, sometimes people say to me, when they're mad and want to put me down. You just think you're a little god. Thank you! Hallelujah! You got that right! Who'd you think you are, Jesus? Yep!...Are you listening to me? Are you kids running around here acting like gods? Why not? God told me to! Since I'm an exact duplicate of God, I'm going to act like God!"

Paul Crouch, the president of the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) states, "Christians are little gods." (Praise the Lord (TBN), recorded 7/7/86). "God draws no distinction between Himself and us."

As you can see, the Word of Faith teachers are just taking the next logical leap in their thinking. If you have the faith of God, or God-like faith, and you can speak things into existence, then you must also be a "little god."

Visit this site: [www.discernment.org] (highly recommended!!!), and [www-personal.si.umich.edu] for more info.

The Atonement

The Word of Faith’s teaching on the atonement is confusing at best, and blasphemous at worst. They blasphemously maintain that He took on a satanic nature while He was on the cross, and that He did not finish the work of atonement on the cross. Instead, He went to hell and was tortured for 3 days, and then God caught Satan on a legal technicality, and Satan had to release Jesus. As a result, Jesus became the “first born-again and redeemed man,” and the work of atonement was then completed.

Pure and simple, this is a different Jesus and a different Gospel. Once again, I will refer you to the resources at the end of this article that expound on this issue.

Conclusion

What I have listed above is really just a brief introduction into what is today the most dangerous heretical movement to be found within the church itself.

As I mentioned in my introduction, I came head-to-head with this heresy when the teaching was introduced to the church that I was ordained at. And, as I mentioned, it just so happened that I was also investigating Reformed Theology (Calvinism). Well, I eventually embraced the Reformed view. To read a more detailed account of my experiences as described here, please see my article at: www.geocities.com/johnandursula/whycalvinist .

For more info on Reformed theology/Calvinism, you can visit www.monergism.com. You can also visit my web site to read some of the articles I’ve written on the subject at www.geocities.com/johnandursula (once there, just click on “Thoughts on Biblical Christianity”).

In closing, here is a brief list of some of the consequences this faulty teaching produces:

1. The believer now has faith in his "God-like faith" and not faith in God.

2. The believer doesn't focus on what God's will is, but on whatever his fickle mind conceives of wanting to have (as a matter of fact, Frederick Price and the rest say we should never pray to God "Your will be done" because we have the right to speak things into existence!).

3. The believer, in essence, robs God of the Glory that is due to Him alone, because the believer will attribute every positive thing in his life as being the result of his own "God-like" faith. In other words, the believer gets the glory for removing the "mountain" and not God. And, of course, if the believer doesn't get something He spoke (notice, not asked for), then he just didn't have enough of the "God-kind of" faith. If I may say tongue-in-cheek, God must be very impressed with the believer who had sense enough to exercise his "God-like" faith…I mean, how else is anything good in the world ever going to come about…God certainly doesn’t possess the power to change anything. Good thing God has us here to make positive confessions and speak things into existence…


4. The Sovereignty and Providence of God are directly attacked, and effectively removed. In other words, God isn't in control of anything...believers are by their "positive confession." What we are left with is a god who is the eternal watchmaker. He winds up creation, builds into it certain laws, and then goes off to read the newspaper, allowing the universe to govern itself by those laws. The Bible teaches that while God did create the universe orderly and with certain "laws" and general principles (such as reaping and sowing), it also teaches that God is actively involved in every facet of His creation during every millisecond of time. Nothing happens outside of God's sovereign control.

5. If God has faith, then who or what does God have faith in? To say that He has faith in Himself is a non-sense statement. Faith, by definition, requires that a being place trust in something outside of itself, and faith is only as good as the object that you place it in. So, if God has faith, what object outside of Himself is He placing His faith in? Is this object good? If it is good, then why isn't it God? So, I think we could say that if God has faith, then He really isn't God. His Deity is undermined.

Below is a list of resources drawn from www.apologeticsindex.org that shed much more light on the Word of Faith movement:

Word-Faith Movement
Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.

Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism. It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture

John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 290

There are many perculiar ideas and practices in the Faith theology, but what merits it the label of heresy are the following: 1) its deistic view of God, who must dance to men's attempts to manipulate the spiritual laws of the universe; 2) its demonic view of Christ, who was filled with "the Satanic nature" and must be "born again in hell; 3) its gnostic view of revelation, which demands denial of the physical senses and classifies Christians by their willingness to do so; and 4) its metaphysical view of salvation, which deifies man and spiritualizes the atonement, locating it in hell rather than on the cross, thereby subverting the crucial biblical belief that it is Christ's physical death and shed blood, which alone atone for sin. All four of these heresies may be accounted for by Kenyon's syncretism of methaphysical thought with traditional biblical doctrine"

D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel

- Articles -
Atonement and the Word-Faith Movement Article from Watchman Fellowship
Atonement Where? A Biblical analysis and refutation of the disturbing claims put forward by the Faith Movement, which include the inefficiency of Christ's blood, alone, to atone for the sins of man; the need for Christ's spiritual death, and that the redemption of mankind was completed in hell. By Moreno Dal Bello
An Examination of the Word-Faith Movement A good overview.
Faith in Faith or Faith in God? by Hank Hanegraaff, president of CRI
The 'Faith' Movement May Be Prospering, But Is It Healthy? By Stuart StJohn.
Heresies of the Word Faith Movement in chart form.
Heresies of the Word-Faith Movement Documented with quotes (.wav files available)
Misplaced Faith "By saying the right formulas, can people control God?"
My Word-of-Faith Testimony by Tricia Tillin
Pentecost or Plotinus? A discussion of the origins of word-faith teaching being Plotinus not the Pentecostal movement. By Oliver Hammond.
Positive Confession Article from Watchman Fellowship
Profile of the Word-Faith Movement by Watchman Fellowship
Ten Reasons To Reject Word of Faith Teachings By Tricia Tillin
What's Wrong With The Faith Movement? and part two By Hank Hanegraaff.
Word-Faith Theology by Watchman Fellowship
Word-Faith Theology and Mormonism a Watchman Fellowship article.


Christianity In Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff. Addresses the errors of the word-faith movement.
A Different Gospel by D.R. McConnell.

- Multimedia -
The Errors of Positive Confession RealAudio. By Walter Martin. Part 2

This site (http://members.tripod.com/thecontenders/tbn.htm) has more info on particular Word of Faith teachers, to include Creflo Dollar (note: They include Joyce Meyer and Jack Van Impe. Van Impe is not a Word of Faith teacher, however, his teachings on end times have been problematic. Joyce Meyer has had some exposure to Word of Faith doctrine, and sometimes that comes through her teaching. However, she is far better than the rest, though I would advise a great deal of discernment be exercised if one desires to listen to her.

Here are a couple of articles about Creflo Dollar:

Cult or Christianity?
World Changers promises financial blessings to the faithful, but many leave disillusioned
by Rick Sherrell, Dec. 6, 1997

After many of her family members joined World Changers Church International under the charismatic leadership of the Rev. Creflo A. Dollar Jr., Florence Duncan decided to give it a try. But what Duncan says she found was closer to a cult than to Christianity.

"It's horrible, just absolutely horrible. My whole nuclear family is in this thing except me," says Duncan, a devout Christian whose distress and exasperation over the situation is evident in her tone. "I'm the only odd man out."

World Changers is one of the fastest-growing churches in the nation. Founded in an elementary school 11 years ago, the church is now forced to hire shuttle bus drivers and police officers to accommodate its Sunday services crowd. The church's $7 million dome on Burdette Road in College Park is the largest church building in the Atlanta area.

Many of its 15,000 members, among them Duncan's family, have been caught up in the promise of prosperity. And the promise of worldly riches says Duncan, a graduate of Atlanta Christian College who is working on her masters at Southern Christian University in Montgomery, Alabama, is "just Humanism dressed up in Christian clothes."

The message of the "Prosperity Gospel," which World Changers teaches, is simple: "You can be rich, healthy and trouble free. Jesus was rich and God wants you to be rich." One look at the church's facility, called the World Dome, is enough to convince you that it works -- for somebody.

Sunday morning at the cavernous dome can be a moving experience. An army of ushers direct you to your seat in a state-of-the-art auditorium that is devoid of traditional church pews and instead, sports 8,000 plush theater-style seats. White collection buckets can be found alongside each aisle. The church's bookstore is filled with books touting prosperity such as, "Confession Brings Possession," and "How To Bring Home The Wealth."

Of course, the prosperity message is not just limited to World Changers. Two of the movement's elder leaders, Fred Price and Kenneth Copeland, can be viewed on a total 420 television stations worldwide and have published 67 books.

But some religious observers say the Prosperity Gospel is out of sync with the substance of Jesus' teachings, which emphasizes selflessness and spiritual virtue.

J.R. Hudson was a member of World Changers for five years and graduated from their school of ministry. But his quest for true knowledge of the scriptures caused him to stray from the fold and persuaded him that the teachings were anti-scriptural.

Hudson contends that the Prosperity Gospel takes advantage of people who are not grounded in Biblical teachings. It tells them they can be wealthy and always healthy and never have problems.

But Hudson says the only one prospering is Dollar, who wears expensive suits, drives a Rolls Royce and owns his own Lear jet to whisk him across the country spreading his message of prosperity. According to Dollar's teachings, if he didn't look prosperous, how could he gain more followers?

Such thinking is one of the reasons both Duncan and Hudson call the movement a cult.

"The leader of a cult is generally someone very charismatic," says Duncan. She characterizes him as charismatic, manipulative and with so much personality that his word carries more than the Bible's -- although members would deny that.

The other sticky issue is the enormous pressure the church places on members to tithe, or give ten percent of their earnings to the church. Unlike traditional churches, many of which also encourage tithing, World Changers goes further by tracking its members' tithing records through membership numbers and computer records. Those who don't tithe in accordance with the pledge signed during new member orientation are ostracized from the church's ministries. You can attend the church, but you can't participate in any of its official business.

Hudson says members are also taught that failure to tithe will result in the devil wrecking your car or something else terrible happening to you. Everything bad -- and good -- that happens in a believer's life is attributed to whether or not the believer tithed properly.

The Rev. Marque Payne, author of "Tithing: The Truth About It," has conducted Christian Finance conferences throughout the South and studied over 1,000 scriptures involving Christian finances. He says that what World Changers teaches is not what the Bible teaches.

"It is literally another gospel," he writes. "The Bible makes it clear that you cannot serve two Gods -- God and Mammon. Mammon being greed and the desire for materialistic things above everything else."

Hudson describes Dollar as a very sincere, compassionate, strong-willed man who loves his family. "If you knew him you'd like him," he says. "I don't have anything bad that I can say about him personally.... He's very sincere. He thinks he's right. There's a whole lot of people who think that but the thing is you can be sincere and be sincerely wrong."

Hudson says that Dollar leads a very insulated life surrounded by what's called Personal Pastor's Assistants, or PPAs. In laymen's terms that's bodyguards. Those PPAs train both physically and technically in the tactics used by the Secret Service.

"People can't just readily walk up and talk to him," says Hudson. "Especially on his way to the pulpit no one is allowed to touch him because they might disturb the anointedness on his life. He's supposedly so Godly he can't be touched."

Dollar also teaches that his word is beyond reproof. "They even use scripture to support that they shouldn't be corrected in any way," says Hudson.

Payne says that the notion that church leaders shouldn't be questioned or corrected is one of the key characteristics of cults.

"The foundations of a cult are don't question, don't speak out of turn, don't go study for yourself outside of the guidelines that they give you," Payne says.

Duncan agrees that the followers are brainwashed by Dollar's teachings.

"When someone does criticize them they come out strong against them calling them devils and the like," says Hudson. "Word of Faith ministers are not going to respond to media or critics or anything like that. They're pretty much focused in on their own little deal and their teachings."

The Rev. T.A. Body of One Accord Community Church also hosts a daily radio talk show on WGUN which addresses the issues of false doctrine. He says that people call in by the thousands who have left the teachings of World Changers.

"I've asked him [Dollar] for a public debate but he won't give it to me," says Body. "I've asked him to even call into my show and correct me if I'm wrong. He hasn't ever asked me to call him and correct him. Because I certainly would."

Body says that Dollar constantly teaches his congregation that they can be just like him. "The person who works at McDonalds cannot expect to be the president of a bank by that message," he says. "He lives in a very high lifestyle and he tells the members you can acquire this kind of lifestyle if you have faith in God."

Hudson says the emperor has no clothes. "He's riding to church in a Rolls Royce and flying a Lear jet across the country and here these people are still riding buses. They're not getting any wealthier. Look in the parking lot. There's too many beat up cars."

"I thought it could work," says Demetrius King a former member. "It sounds good and you would want it to work. It's as simple as one, two three -- tithe and you will prosper." King's financial situation didn't get any better and he left the church disillusioned.

"It leaves a person spiritually bankrupt and empty trying to use formulas that do not work," says Payne. "It leaves a person wondering in a daze and having to reassess their whole belief in what Christianity is."

"World Changers teaches a theology and doctrine that people want to hear," says Duncan. "There's nothing wrong with wanting to prosper, but to present that as the central core of the teachings of Christianity is a deception and lie. I'd say that they would have just about as much chance of gaining abundant prosperity by purchasing a lottery ticket."





Dollar and the Gospel
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Mar. 9, 2000
[www.accessatlanta.com]


The Rev. Creflo Dollar Jr. has unabashedly embraced his name by building a
religious empire on the message that his brand of piety leads to prosperity.

He drives a black Rolls-Royce, flies to speaking engagements across the
nation and Europe in a $5 million private jet and lives in a $1 million home
behind iron gates in an upscale Atlanta neighborhood.


But now Dollar is wrestling with more temporal matters. He's been cited for
contempt of court in the Evander Holyfield divorce. He's appealing the
contempt charge issued in December by a Fayette County Superior Court judge
after Dollar refused to give a deposition in the boxer's divorce case.

Janice Holyfield's attorneys want Dollar to account for what they say is at
least $4 million that Holyfield has given to the church and to Dollar
personally. They also want a record of Dollar's counseling sessions with
Evander Holyfield.


In September, Dollar vowed he would go to jail before relenting. ''I
realize there are a bunch of high-strung people that have got the love of
money on their mind, but they just messed with'' the wrong person, he said in
a sermon.

In December, 100 Fulton County police officers were admonished by the
county's ethics board for accepting $1,000 apiece from Dollar. Dollar sent
the money to recognize the officers' service to the community. But the
gesture was criticized because it came a month after two traffic tickets
Dollar had received were downgraded to warnings.

A fiercely private man, Dollar has refused repeated requests for an interview
with The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. But in interviews with 25 people,
including Dollar's relatives, childhood friends and former and current church
members, two clashing portraits of Dollar emerged.

Supporters see Dollar as a compassionate man who helps the needy and a
spiritual visionary whose message of prosperity is twisted out of context.
Detractors characterize him privately as ''Cash-Flow'' Dollar, a high roller
who often refuses to let members touch him and whose church requests access
to their W-2 forms.


Then Dollar's wife, Taffi, introduces her husband as one who talks ''face to
face with God, like Moses.'' She warns that ''every tongue that rises up
against'' her husband will ''be struck down.''


About a half-hour into the service, an assistant pastor booms to the
congregation: ''It's opportunity for prosperity time!''

The congregants wave money-filled envelopes in the air and yell in joy as
ushers pass the white buckets down the row to collect the envelopes.


Today, his congregation is the second in size only to the 23,000-strong New
Birth Missionary Baptist. His sermons are broadcast in every state and in
seven countries on the Trinity Broadcast Network, an international Christian
television network.

Dollar lives in a $1 million home owned by the church in the Guilford Forest
subdivision in southwest Atlanta. World Changers purchased another $1 million
home on 27 acres in Fayette County in December. The church has amassed a
fortune in real estate, mostly in College Park.
(...)

As World Changers grew, so did Dollar's emphasis on prosperity. Dollar has no
degree in theology. Much of his prosperity message, according to church and
his family members, is based on the teachings of friend and spiritual mentor
Kenneth Copeland.

Copeland, a nationally known televangelist based in Fort Worth, Texas, also
has provided Dollar with financial backing, according to J. Lee Grady, an
editor with Charisma Magazine, one of the country's most prestigious
Christian publications.
(...)

Dollar's message amounts to ''a Christian version of the lottery,'' said Hank
Hanegraaff, host of a nationally syndicated radio show and author of
''Counterfeit Revival,'' a book that claims tactics used by cults are
replicated in some churches.


Hanegraaff said such churches have a high turnover rate because people burn
out under the pressure to tithe. Many followers of the prosperity gospel
eventually abandon all organized religion.

Dollar also has attracted the attention of Ole, the founder of Trinity
Foundation Inc., a nonprofit Christian group based in Dallas that
investigates televangelists. Anthony gained attention in 1991 when he filmed
televangelist Robert Tilton dumping hundreds of prayer requests in a garbage
bag after removing the money.

Anthony said many former members of World Changers are afraid to speak out
against Dollar because they are constantly reminded that they will be
punished if they talk against a man of God.


tpcwocattender

Instead of challenging those on this forum to do your homework for you. I would suggest you take some time and look for the answers you appear to be seeking. Writing down your questions and then doing some research online and at the library might help you to find the answers you seek. Because if you care enough to ask questions and do research then the answers that you find will be more personal and speak to the issues in your life far better than in an adversarial post on this forum. I know that emails and forum posts cannot and do not display the genuine concern behind them. Be sure that this is said from someone who has been where you are and then asked the questions an did the research to find the answers we needed to make a decision we felt was right and in God's will.

Daughter of Dorcas

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this? I've heard people say that others have told them that they are in "dangerous territory" when they are questioning, and/or have decided to leave TP. We've heard the "divisive" bit, the "prideful" accusations, etc. What about demonic posession? I know people that have been told that they are posessed, and that is why they can't see the truth and are acting in a way that is contrary to TP and why they want to leave. Others have refused to pray with thses people, out of fear, b/c of their *supposed* posession. Does anyone have any insight as to where this is coming from....is this the new line that leadership is using to scare people into submission?

Pastor Jackie's testimony is that of a member of the Pastoral Staff who saw danger and unbiblical foundation for the vision and direction that Pastor Mike was taking TPC. She voiced her concern in a meeting, and was asked to leave the meeting by Pastor Mike. She did. She confronted Pastor Mike in love and got shot down. Sound familiar? If you ask questions and then do your research, then you are going to find that Pastor Jackie's testimony is powerful. What better way to silence powerful testimony than to discredit the person giving the testimony. That tactic is as old as dirt. When you look at who is trying to discredit the person giving the testimony and their motives then you will find a person or person with something to hide.

Daughter of Dorcas

Reguarding the consultant's recomendations and potential changes at TP, I am wondering if the consultant addressed the issue of elders being on staff and the conflict of interest that presents. Every elder, except for one, is either on staff or has a spouse on staff. Not only does that just seem out of *balance* to me, it is not an appropriate way to *do business*, especially for a church. Does anyone know if this issue was addressed? I know that if I were still a member of TP, I would be looking into this, and I would expect that those who have a potential conflict to resign from one position or the other. They can NOT serve both the body of Christ and themselves, they shouldn't even try. I am sorry that as a member of TP, that I didn't speak up about this issue years ago.

This applies to deacons too, imo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2009 12:09AM by Brokenhearted.

Quote
Daughter of Dorcas
Pastor Jackie's testimony is that of a member of the Pastoral Staff who saw danger and unbiblical foundation for the vision and direction that Pastor Mike was taking TPC. She voiced her concern in a meeting, and was asked to leave the meeting by Pastor Mike. She did. She confronted Pastor Mike in love and got shot down. Sound familiar? If you ask questions and then do your research, then you are going to find that Pastor Jackie's testimony is powerful. What better way to silence powerful testimony than to discredit the person giving the testimony. That tactic is as old as dirt. When you look at who is trying to discredit the person giving the testimony and their motives then you will find a person or person with something to hide.

Daughter of Dorcas

Well said.

Thank you Trouble for you 9. points of why YOU have decided to get off the fence and jump back into the pen. I have been reading this forum since the first pages and have been silent, because at the time I was attending TP when I did ask questions or said my point of view I was vitcimized and abused, emotionally, spiritually. After reading T's first item, my emotions were boiling, No, I was fuming! So I do truly thank you T for your blog you have awaken a sleeping warrior.

I will break down my points/comments/responses into segments as to not overwhelm anyone. Truly, my interest lies in the Truth to be said, and pondered. In the 4 hours it has taken me to write out my responses to all 9 I realize it would easily be skipped over b/c of the amount of time it would take to read.


1. there is too much over-generalization and assumption.
Mike had removed the church(TP) from Edmonds Church of God, because they (ECof God) didn't agree with who TP wanted as a pastor or the hoops (they, the person TP wanted to make a pastor)would have to jump through. By doing this move TP was able to get their 501c3 status. I saw a red flag at this time and reasoned it away, by leadership words when I asked my questions. I was discouraged into not asking anymore questions, just accept the mission and new direction of TP.

2. there is not enough proof or evidence to support accusations.
Not enough proof or evidence? What of Mike's Sunday sermon when he mentioned "Being statisfied w/ what God has given you, no, less then what you have." (loosely quoted) Then about 2/3 months later his family moved into their present home valued over $600,000? All the while he was PUSHING for ALL attendees/members to forgo vacations and extras for the POSSESSING THE LAND campaign. A month later Mike took his kids on a surprise trip to Disneyland. Or how about something more recent - the budget - it use to show all paid staff members and their amounts - No longer is the budget broken down to the positions - it is or I should say was as of 2 years ago - Staff - $Lumpsum. When I asked the question why is it lumped, no answer was given, instead around the bush the subject went. In my mind, hmmm, hidden agenda.

3. every church & pastor has problems.
Yes, Pastors, churches have problems. WE are HUMAN. "If one says he is w/o sin, he is a fool," "For all have sinned and fallen... ." I personally find that you have been talking to the higher leadership in TPWOC, they have a way to pull the curtain, place a filter, coat over the real issue, question. Their responses only touch on the orginal question, and they tell only what they want you to hear, a tainted perspective, so you end up doubting yourself. When I raised a question or MY point of view on what I sensed as red flags, I was discouraged to ask. Here is one of the issues that was the last straw for me and my family. I tried to make an appointment with Pastor Mike about an issue(s) I had, two different leaders intervened, Kari Lewis and Jeff Barnes at two seperate times. I was told, "Pastor Mike is a busy man, tell me and I'll pass it on to him." DANGER, RED LIGHTS AND BELLS WENT OFF IN MY HEAD! I knew if I spoke up, I was in a CATCH 22, thank you very much. They would say, (I know from past experience) something to reason or attack me with YOU are being divisive, gossiping, causing disunity. Thus I didn't speak them, I NEEDED to go to the source of my questions, issues.
Your statement of all churches, pastors have problems, is moot, it is a NO DUH!!!! Remember they are human and humans are fallible, we sin. You have NO IDEA THE PAIN GIVEN TO THOSE OF US WHO HAVE BEEN VITCIMS to TP's abuse.

Brings to light the REAL reason why my family left. Which I'll go into more in my next session.

Quote
tpcwocattender
I watched the Justin Peters video (the right one) in full. I really liked it but I would hesitate to use it as a tool to convince anyone of false teachings. This has nothing to do with my opinion on what he says. He is masterful in his delivery and he is very compelling to listen to. My one reason is simply this, where are the scripture references to help someone understand the false doctrine compared to the word of God? Its hard to go head to head with someone on false teachings without biblical reference. Its great to watch that video and it is truth. You just can't go in with that as your only weapon, got to have scripture!

Does anyone have a video that he teaches where he gets into the Word?

Thanks

You're scarin' me, man! You're in leadership. Everything Justin was saying was demonstrating how word-faith teaching is contrary to Christian "orthodoxy"--that is, to what Chrstians throughout history have believed based in and well-founded in Scripture--the clear teachings of the Word. He was talking to his fellow Baptist believers who are WELL GROUNDED in the scriptures. They know about the sovereignty of God, the work of the Atonement, etc. This is the kind of foundation that Paul said he shouldn't have to lay every time he visited a church. Have you not understood these things in your own studies of the scriptures? If not, why are you leading?

If you're serious about getting to the truth, and you want lists of Scriptural support, read the materials Daughter of Dorcas posted. Or Contact Justin's organization for scriptural basis for his talk; I'm sure they can send you volumes. Or your Bible is right in front of you; please read it--all of it!

But I have a gut feeling that you really don't want to know what is true; what you're looking for is to convince yourself that there really isn't anything to what we're saying and doing here to warn people. You want it to be true that everything's gonna be just fine at Turning Point. Very well, then. Be on your way. We have tried our best to explain our concerns. We aren't helping your cause, and you cannot convince us that what we have seen and heard and experienced has not happened. It's an impasse.

amen learningpoint its not just your gut thats feeling that. it feel like the old wolf in sheeps clothing thing

Your going somewhere I never intended you to go. I was merely saying that if you are going to send that to a word of faith believer it would be more effective if you connected the dotes for them. I don't need the dotes connected but if they believe this heresy then they need help walking through the doctrine of the scripture to process their level of deceit.

Thanks for your concern LP - I am on more than a mission to see if the doctrine is messed up at TPC. TPC keeps jumping back and forth doctrinally. That is dangerous. Your concern sounds more like you are mocking me though. I don't think that is your intention.

My request for a more scripturally based video was not for me. I have many people who I feel need educated on this teaching and I may not be as eloquent as some other gifted teacher/preacher.

I would give this word of caution. If you are intending this forum to be one that is open for sharing in the hopes of helping someone led astray you might try and be a little less sarcastic. It can be hurtful. Don't worry about me, I am way beyond being offended by people.

I am not saying you are out to get my LP - just an observation for you to consider.