hi again! its been some time since my last message got shot down by the moderator... lol but I'd like to address something here that i think of as important to keep in mind.

the word is balance.

this is my story... please listen... and not just hear. there is a difference and it can make all the difference.

i have struggled greatly in this last month with many of the issues stated here in this forum. they flipped everything i had come to know in my many years of attending TPC upside-down. being a leader at TPC (even currently; not high-leadership) i at once plunged into investigation of the arguments being made against my church and my family. i desired to judge things soberly and to hear things truly from a non-TPC perspective for a change (for every perspective must be taken into account). and so i listened. i listened to those who had left. i heard the arguments. i could not argue back. after some time of this and talking to a few people of similar viewpoint, i decided it was in my best interest to leave. this decision did not come lightly nor without thought. i thought... pastor mike is not accountable. the church is headed down the wrong path. its manifesting through some weird doctrine and mindsets and is not being addressed, but covered up. through all of this determining i remained, to my knowledge, without bitterness or false motive. why would i want to leave my family... my life here? if it hurt anyone it hurt me. even making the decision was hurting me. living oblivious to the problems was fun... god had me in a season where i was loving life and ministry more than ever... and now everything was up in the air... i was very stressed to say the least... but assured of my decision.

i determined that i was going to leave.

upon telling a few close friends of my decision they quickly reminded me of that which i had overlooked and not thought of. they gave me a new perspective (though they did not judge me or my decision). my image of "everything" wrong at TPC had been shattered... and upon my reflection... i decided that it was not yet time for me to leave. what they brought was balance (not mere brainwashing). it did not negate what i had learned investigating these problems... and they ARE problems... but re-clarified some things. since then i have had nothing but peace.

now i feel that it is time for me to post again, and in a different spirit than when i had tried to post before. i admit i was somewhat haughty (although my rejected post was still true). and i want what i had learned to be known, even if you do not agree with it or come to a different conclusion.

here are a few of my thoughts

1. there is too much over-generalization and assumption. i was swayed to believe that pastor mike has NO accountability. i heard it over and over again. i said it myself. i would still say that he needs MORE accountability (and this from outside TPC) and that it is lacking, but even the sabbatical was a measure of discipline. just because you don't know who he is accountable to doesn't mean he is therefore not accountable at all. you don't know his relationships! you weren't in the elders meetings! did he not confess to them? did they not act? was that not accountability? or is the whole congregation now his elders? as for outside accountability, i believe he is trying to establish those relationships (i can't prove that though lol).

2. there is not enough proof or evidence to support accusations. many claims are made and few are validated especially when it comes to finances. as an example... i heard on this forum that his salary was 10,000 and that it was from "trustworthy" sources. i myself however heard a different number... also from multiple "trustworthy" sources. if you don't know... please don't speculate. that doesn't help truth one bit. can we not have the humility to say "gosh... i don't know and can't make a reliable judgment"?

3. every church & pastor has problems. good luck trying to find a perfect one. every leader will have problems. they will sin. they will misinterpret doctrine. don't ditch when your leadership has issues. who will be left to cover over it? love covers over a multitude of sin. have you been quick to cover over sin or are you just preoccupied with exposing it? i would rather be the former... on the other hand confrontation and repentance has value too. what of the prophets? and the issues have been exposed. the church has problems... but not every church has good fruit. don't forget about the good things and only focus on whats bad. there are many reasons to leave. there are also many reasons to stay. many are leaving the church. many are also joining the church. you may be "testing" what is happening at TPC, but then don't forget to "weigh" what you have tested. i myself long to see conviction grip us all and the fruit that comes with repentance... but also rejoice to show mercy to my leaders. let us see how god judges these things.

4. motivation is hard to judge (be careful). as humans we project our failures and the failures of others onto other people. im not saying that leadership has only wonderful heavenly motivation... but what do i really know? do i really know if pastor mike is trying to build a kingdom for himself? how can i judge that? i believe if he IS wrong that god will see to his judgment.

5. i have never been told not to ask questions. on top of that i have observed many people "talking amongst themselves" and coming up with conclusions about elders without ever asking the elders themselves! (i did that lol). that does not lead to balance. ask questions. know both sides. are you willing to know the other side? i was. i am still.

6. people at TPC suck. lol thats a funny one. you may have been legitimately hurt by people at TPC. do you know why? because they are HUMAN. they may HAVE judged you. they may NOT have pastored you. the solution to this is not to judge the whole church, but to extend mercy and to pastor others youselves (as you may be doing). if everyone who truly values these things leaves for these reasons... who is left to pastor but the unable and immature? besides this i dislike being included in "TPC doesn't care about anybody or the lost" kind of statements. im part of TPC and i do care. i fail too, but i care. avoid stereotypes. you can hurt people too. i apologize for where i have failed any of you.

7. your name-calling and parodys make me want to stay at TPC everytime (i hope that stings just a little).

8. spiritual parenting has not been taught or endorsed by TPC for four years! stop bringing it up. that only displays how much of RLC you project onto TPC and how much you are unwilling to listen. a church that corrects its teaching is admirable. you should pray this continues at TPC!

9. if you decide to leave TPC... thats ok! go and be fruitful elsewhere! i do not judge you. i almost left myself... and upon continued observation in the coming seasons may still decide to leave. who knows? but for now im staying.

im sure there is a tenth point i had in the back of my mind somewhere (probably an important one too lol), but it's lost to me at 1:25 am. i do apologize. if at any point i said something out of line or unbalanced you can be sure to correct me (as im sure you will if they actually post what i wrote this time). i just may not respond. dont get all in a tizzy cuz i didnt respond. its just that my intention was just to blog it and hopefully add to a more balanced perspective. if it balances out differently on your scales then thats that (besides i dont check this forum often enough and would probably not see it).

anyways goodnight all!

While Pastors Mike and Cindyand the Elders have many admirable traits, I think they are mistaken in what their duties are to the congregation. The following is what scripture says about their roles and obligations to the body at TPC. Quite frankly I think they have crashed the train and left the tracks of what their jobs are as provided for in scripture. The Deacons are to work and serve the congregation of the church and not the Elders and Pastoral Staff. If that is not how it is "set up" then there is yet another problem at TPC which needs to be fixed.

1 Timothy 3:1-13 (The Message)
Leadership in the Church

1-7If anyone wants to provide leadership in the church, good! But there are preconditions: A leader must be well-thought-of, committed to his wife, cool and collected, accessible, and hospitable. He must know what he's talking about, not be overfond of wine, not pushy but gentle, not thin-skinned, not money-hungry. He must handle his own affairs well, attentive to his own children and having their respect. For if someone is unable to handle his own affairs, how can he take care of God's church? He must not be a new believer, lest the position go to his head and the Devil trip him up. Outsiders must think well of him, or else the Devil will figure out a way to lure him into his trap.

8-13The same goes for those who want to be servants in the church: serious, not deceitful, not too free with the bottle, not in it for what they can get out of it. They must be reverent before the mystery of the faith, not using their position to try to run things. Let them prove themselves first. If they show they can do it, take them on. No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not overfond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. Those who do this servant work will come to be highly respected, a real credit to this Jesus-faith.

Titus 1:6-9 (The Message)
A Good Grip on the Message

5-9I left you in charge in Crete so you could complete what I left half-done. Appoint leaders in every town according to my instructions. As you select them, ask, "Is this man well-thought-of? Is he committed to his wife? Are his children believers? Do they respect him and stay out of trouble?" It's important that a church leader, responsible for the affairs in God's house, be looked up to—not pushy, not short-tempered, not a drunk, not a bully, not money-hungry. He must welcome people, be helpful, wise, fair, reverent, have a good grip on himself, and have a good grip on the Message, knowing how to use the truth to either spur people on in knowledge or stop them in their tracks if they oppose it.

What are the qualifications of elders and deacons?

The Bible has a very clear set of qualifications for a deacon and an elder and their positions in the body of believers. There is a difference between these two terms even though in our society they are quite often used interchangeably. We first see the word that is translated "deacon" used in Acts, although it is veiled. "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables" (Acts 6:2). The word "serve" is the Greek word "diakoneo," and it comes from a word that means an attendant, a waiter, or one who ministers to another, and it is from this word that we get the word “deacon.” The context here is that there was a dispute in the church in Acts about the way the pooled resources were being allocated, and the apostles were being called upon to arbitrate, and it was a distraction from their ability to give out the gospel. Therefore, a group of seven men were appointed to take care of this task. A deacon, therefore, is one who serves others and especially in the body of born-again believers that make up a local congregation.

The Apostle Paul gives us the qualifications of the bishop or elder in his first letter to Timothy. The Greek word that is used for the office of a bishop or elder is "episkope," and the word used for the one who holds the office is "episkopos." The bishop himself is the superintendent or the officer in general charge or the overseer of the congregation. Our English word "Episcopal" has its basis in the Greek root, which means "knowledge gained by inspection, or seeking out, to look on or to exercise oversight of." Therefore, the bishop or elder was one who was the overseer in charge of the oversight of the local body of believers. This is what we might call a pastor or minister today.

The qualifications of the bishop/elder/pastor are found in 1 Timothy 3:1-7: "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

The Apostle Paul repeats these qualifications of a bishop/elder/pastor (the same Greek word "episkopos" is used) in his letter to Titus. "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict." (Titus 1:5-9).

The qualifications of a deacon are similar to those of a bishop/elder/pastor. "Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 3:8-13). The word translated "deacon" in this passage is the same Greek word "diakoneo" as is used in Acts 6:2, and therefore we know we are talking about the same office.

There is no ambiguity about these qualifications. Rather, they are simple, straightforward statements. Both the deacon and the bishop/elder/pastor should be a male, the husband of one wife, of sterling character and one who rules his own home in a biblical way. These qualifications also presuppose that one seeking such an office is a born-again believer and walks in submission to God's Word. Being faithful to the Word enables these men to be able to exhort and to teach or convince others of God's truth.

These are not offices to be taken lightly. The Lord Jesus Himself is called the "Shepherd and Bishop of our souls" (1 Peter 2:25). The two words used here are interesting. The word "Shepherd" is the Greek word "poimen," and it is also translated "pastor" (Ephesians 4:11). This poimen is one who tends herds or flocks and is used metaphorically of Christian pastors because pastors should guide as well as feed the flock the bread of life, the Word of God. The word translated "bishop" is the same word, "episkopos," used by the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy and in Titus. Paul also instructs Timothy on the things that exemplify the walk of a good minister. Beginning in 1 Timothy 4:11 through 6:2, Paul gives Timothy 12 things that he should "command and teach."

What are the duties of an elder in the church?"

Answer: The Bible spells out at least five duties and obligations of an elder:

1) The elders help to settle disputes in the church. “While Paul and Barnabas were at Antioch of Syria, some men from Judea arrived and began to teach the Christians 'unless you keep the ancient Jewish custom of circumcision taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.' Paul and Barnabas, disagreeing with them, argued forcefully and at length. Finally, Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem, accompanied by some local believers, to talk to the apostles and elders about this question” (Acts 15:1-2, NLT). The question was raised and forcefully argued, then taken to the apostles and elders for a decision. This passage teaches that elders are decision makers.

2) They pray for the sick. "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord" (James 5:14). Since the elders have to meet specific qualifications, their lives are godly and therefore the sin in their lives is minimal and is confessed regularly; therefore, they are used to pray for the sick. One of the necessities in prayer is praying for the Lord’s will to be done, and they are expected to do this.

3) They are to watch out for the church in humility. "I exhort the elders who are among you, I being also an elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God among you, taking the oversight, not by compulsion, but willingly; nor for base gain, but readily; nor as lording it over those allotted to you by God, but becoming examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory” (1 Peter 5:1-4). Elders are the designated leaders of the church, and the flock is entrusted to them by God. They are not to lead for the pay or the reward but because of their desire to serve and shepherd the flock.

4) They are to watch out for the spiritual life of the flock. "Yield to those leading you, and be submissive, for they watch for your souls, as those who must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief; for that is unprofitable for you" (Hebrews 13:17). This verse does not specifically say “elders,” but it is talking about the church leaders. They are accountable for the spiritual life of the church.

5) They are to spend their time in prayer and teaching the word. "And the Twelve called near the multitude of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word’” (Acts 6:2-4). This is for the apostles, but we can see from the passage above in #3 that Peter equates himself as an apostle and an elder. From this verse you can also see the difference between the duties of elder and deacon.

Simply put, the elders should be peacemakers, prayer warriors, teachers, leaders by example, and decision makers. They are the preaching and teaching leaders of the church. It is a position to be sought but not taken lightly—read this warning: "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness" (James 3:1). The role of elder is not a position to be taken lightly.

First Peter 5:3 contains a wonderful description of a balanced pastoral ministry: “Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.” The pastor’s authority is not something to be “lorded over” the church; rather, a pastor is to be an example of truth, love, and godliness for God's flock to follow. (See also 1 Timothy 4:12.) A pastor is “the steward of God” (Titus 1:7), and he is answerable to God for his leadership in the church.

1 Peter 5:1-3 (The Message)
He'll Promote You at the Right Time

1-3 I have a special concern for you church leaders. I know what it's like to be a leader, in on Christ's sufferings as well as the coming glory. Here's my concern: that you care for God's flock with all the diligence of a shepherd. Not because you have to, but because you want to please God. Not calculating what you can get out of it, but acting spontaneously. Not bossily telling others what to do, but tenderly showing them the way.


Titus 1:7 (The Message)
A Good Grip on the Message

5-9 I left you in charge in Crete so you could complete what I left half-done. Appoint leaders in every town according to my instructions. As you select them, ask, "Is this man well-thought-of? Is he committed to his wife? Are his children believers? Do they respect him and stay out of trouble?" It's important that a church leader, responsible for the affairs in God's house, be looked up to—not pushy, not short-tempered, not a drunk, not a bully, not money-hungry. He must welcome people, be helpful, wise, fair, reverent, have a good grip on himself, and have a good grip on the Message, knowing how to use the truth to either spur people on in knowledge or stop them in their tracks if they oppose it.

Brokenhearted is absolutely right in her observations and statements and genuinely cares about the Pastoral Staff, Elders, Deacons, and body at TPC.

Daughter of Dorcas

Dear Trouble,

Who are you to come on a Forum and "sting" people? Who are you to "judge" when you are not in peoples shoes hurting.

When and if you get to the top (which many do ~ there are those who will step over anyone to get to the top); or if you somehow end up finding "TRUTH", these people here at the Forum will be here. Until then, "What you do not know, you do not understand!"

Trouble, have you read through this whole forum. If not do that first then you will have a better perspective on what people have gone through and understand their pain better.

Quote from Trouble
7. your name-calling and parodys make me want to stay at TPC everytime (i hope that stings just a little).
What is that all about?

Outreach

Trouble, honestly, I don't see much 'balance" coming from your post.

One thing that I want to point out, then I will adress your points, is your comment about having peace. I think that you should consider carefully if you are talking about God's peace, or simply the comfort that comes from stability. You know, studies prove that people iwll more often make the *wrong* choice b/c it's comfortable. Women and children who are being abused will stay in those relationships and even defend them, b/c they love the abuser and/or b/c it's more comfortable to take the abuse that they *know* than it is to confront the unknown that leaving can bring. When my family left TPC, it was the most difficult decision we ever had to make. It hurt more than anything I've ever known (and for that I am truly thankful!). But the freedom and peace that has come from leaving is something that I can not deny. It is something that comes only from the Lord. My family did a difficult thing, and the Lord has blessed us!

Now, moving on......

1. there is too much over-generalization and assumption. i was swayed to believe that pastor mike has NO accountability. i heard it over and over again. i said it myself. i would still say that he needs MORE accountability (and this from outside TPC) and that it is lacking, but even the sabbatical was a measure of discipline. just because you don't know who he is accountable to doesn't mean he is therefore not accountable at all. you don't know his relationships! you weren't in the elders meetings! did he not confess to them? did they not act? was that not accountability? or is the whole congregation now his elders? as for outside accountability, i believe he is trying to establish those relationships (i can't prove that though lol).

Who told you that Mike is accountable to the elders? It is my understanding that they are accountable to him. As for *others* that he's accountable to, I asked who these people were, lol (though it's not really a laughing matter). Do you know who they are? Tony Cunningham, Casey Treat, and Dr Increase! Yeah, there are still some accountability issues!

2. there is not enough proof or evidence to support accusations. many claims are made and few are validated especially when it comes to finances. as an example... i heard on this forum that his salary was 10,000 and that it was from "trustworthy" sources. i myself however heard a different number... also from multiple "trustworthy" sources. if you don't know... please don't speculate. that doesn't help truth one bit. can we not have the humility to say "gosh... i don't know and can't make a reliable judgment"?

Well, I guess this is where annonymity works in your favor. You don't *know* who we are, or who our sources are, so I guess there is not any way to *prove* that the numbers being stated in this forum are the truth. I don't know if you know anyone pesonally on this forum, but I can say, that I trust the sources, they have proven themselves to be trust worthy.

3. every church & pastor has problems. good luck trying to find a perfect one. every leader will have problems. they will sin. they will misinterpret doctrine. don't ditch when your leadership has issues. who will be left to cover over it? love covers over a multitude of sin. have you been quick to cover over sin or are you just preoccupied with exposing it? i would rather be the former... on the other hand confrontation and repentance has value too. what of the prophets? and the issues have been exposed. the church has problems... but not every church has good fruit. don't forget about the good things and only focus on whats bad. there are many reasons to leave. there are also many reasons to stay. many are leaving the church. many are also joining the church. you may be "testing" what is happening at TPC, but then don't forget to "weigh" what you have tested. i myself long to see conviction grip us all and the fruit that comes with repentance... but also rejoice to show mercy to my leaders. let us see how god judges these things.

Yes, every church has some problems. Pastors are human. Not every Pasotr goes out and starts his own denomination though! I remember when Mike was approachable. In fact, I remember telling him one time when he spoke something from the puplipt that I found offensive...he was humble and gracious, he repented and for years he held to his word....until one day............

I'm curious about the many who are joining the church? I know that there are new faces every week, but most of those are gone the next. How many new *members* are there? Do they know about the apostolic movement?

There has been good fruit from TP. I happen to believe that TP continues to reap a harvest from the sowing that's gone on in years past. I also believe that they will later reap from what's being sown now (and I don't think it will be good fruit!).

I have complete trust that God will judge.....I fear for the salvation of some leaders. There, I said it. I think some of the leaders, Pastor Mike especially, have wandered so far off the course that their salvation is at risk. I praise God for His mercy, and pray that these men and women find their way back to the loving Father....before it's to late.

4. motivation is hard to judge (be careful). as humans we project our failures and the failures of others onto other people. im not saying that leadership has only wonderful heavenly motivation... but what do i really know? do i really know if pastor mike is trying to build a kingdom for himself? how can i judge that? i believe if he IS wrong that god will see to his judgment.

Back to this judgement. I love Pastor Mike. I pray that he would see his sin and repent before the Father, and the body, and that he would not have to face judgement.

5. i have never been told not to ask questions. on top of that i have observed many people "talking amongst themselves" and coming up with conclusions about elders without ever asking the elders themselves! (i did that lol). that does not lead to balance. ask questions. know both sides. are you willing to know the other side? i was. i am still.

Well, since *you* have never been told, I'm sure that no one has...is that what you are saying? *I* HAVE been told not to ask questions. I have been labeled selfish, and prideful for thinking that I should have access to info. I've been told that things are not my business (when they ARE the business of the body and community). I have asked elders question, sometimes I got long winded, round about answers, others times I was told that things are just what they are and that we needed to trust Pastor Mike and respond to his authority.

6. people at TPC suck. lol thats a funny one. you may have been legitimately hurt by people at TPC. do you know why? because they are HUMAN. they may HAVE judged you. they may NOT have pastored you. the solution to this is not to judge the whole church, but to extend mercy and to pastor others youselves (as you may be doing). if everyone who truly values these things leaves for these reasons... who is left to pastor but the unable and immature? besides this i dislike being included in "TPC doesn't care about anybody or the lost" kind of statements. im part of TPC and i do care. i fail too, but i care. avoid stereotypes. you can hurt people too. i apologize for where i have failed any of you.

I have not seen one person here say that the people at TPC suck. Not one. Quite the opposite exactly. Many of us (most?) continue to have relationship with people at TP. We love the people at TP, even the leaders, despite our hurts.

7. your name-calling and parodys make me want to stay at TPC everytime (i hope that stings just a little).

Name calling and parodies? Weren't you just *reprimanding* the board for judging the *whole* church and stereotyping? Pot, meet Kettle........

8. spiritual parenting has not been taught or endorsed by TPC for four years! stop bringing it up. that only displays how much of RLC you project onto TPC and how much you are unwilling to listen. a church that corrects its teaching is admirable. you should pray this continues at TPC!

Ummm? Yes it continues to be endorsed. They are more covert now though. In fact, the teaching came down, from Mike himself, that if you considered your discipler your *spiirital father (or mother) that needed to stop, b/c M & C are the spiritual parents of *the church* and we were all to look to them as spiritual parents and not anyone else. This was taugh, not that long ago, by and elder! Unless it's been renounced in the lst two months, TPC does in fact continue to teach it.

9. if you decide to leave TPC... thats ok! go and be fruitful elsewhere! i do not judge you. i almost left myself... and upon continued observation in the coming seasons may still decide to leave. who knows? but for now im staying.

Well, I hve to say that from this posting, it certainly seemed as though you were judging. But, perhaps that's just my skewed pov. <<shrug>>

hi again

i decided to reply briefly afterall. upon review of the few posts posted in response i want to say a few things.

first of all im sorry for where it seems i was judgmental. perhaps i am just frusterated with arguments i dont agree with and carried it over into attacking people. if this is the case then i sincerely apologize. it was never my intention.

i realize a little too that i should take my own advice lol. perhaps i over-generalized things on this forum a bit too much too. and some of my answers were over-generalized. for instance i said that i had never been told not to ask questions. that really DOESNT mean others werent told. true. its just that ive been there for 6 years and never heard it... and recently those above me have been pleading with us TO ask questions... so...

perhaps i worded the comment about "stinging" poorly. in any case i wanted to point out that this kind of attitude toward tpc leaders (parodys and name-calling) continues to close ears at tpc to the forum and what can possibly benefit them from it.

my reference to how people at tpc suck was made very lightheartedly, which can't be communicated well online. thats another drawback to the whole internet thing. if i was to meet with any one of you face to face and have that conversation i doubt any would be offended. in this instance, i simply used an expressed stereotype to get my point across (it may not have been expressed in those exact words though).

and about what brokenhearted said about the accountability issue... that seems much like speculation to me. i could be wrong but i dont see any facts behind your argument. the elders being accountable to pastor mike instead? im sure to a point yes. they need accountability too and he is an elder (should he be? dont know about that one). but to say the elders provide no accountability to pastor mike IS false. if you are unwilling to see that then im sorry. and about the other three lumped in there... as far as i know (which might not be very much) pastor mike has barely any relationship with tony, casey, or the good dr. i dont know who told you what but i would SPECULATE that he is a still a long way off from accountability there (and has stopped pursuing that nature of relationship with tony). i have also heard of a few others he is pursuing accountablility with which might not be as controversial as the ones mentioned.

anyways i think that may be about it. sorry cuz im a pig-head too sometimes.

oh and by the way ive heard very vaguely of some changes that might be starting at tpc as a result of the consultant. the changes will likely never be announced and take place gradually through the next year. i have been told that the changes will focus on bringing pastoral care back up (which they admit is low) among other things. again it is very vague and that is about all i know.

I guess by troubles and tpattenders posts we all just made this stuff up, its all spite coming from us because why? hmmm we weren't made elders. NO, I mean who wants to go to all those meetings, and have to be at pastor mikes beck and call. of coarse you do get good seats at church, and have a certain air of importance which is impressive. Or is we didnt get to sing on the worship team, hmmmm man all those practices and getting to church early naw I dont think so. what could be the source of our discontent, It certainly isnt that it makes us popular, feel good, or influential in change at turningpoint. No to go through the agony we all faced it must have been something we could no longer deny, justify, or just wish away. are we liars here, trouble and tpattender is that what you think? Is pastor Jackie the biggest liar of all then, did she leave a job which paided quite well, people she loved and needed as much as they needed her, a place she scraficed her time, and heart, and even family's comfort for. all for a lie ? It is so much harder doing the right thing then justifying, rationalizing a lie. I wished all the stuff said on here were lies. believe me

I NEVER said you or anyone else made anything up. I have given my opinion and offered an alternative viewpoint. That is not accusing you of being dishonest. I am on this journey by myself. I am listening to everything that is being said but when all said and done it will be a desicion I make with my family.

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nooneofanyimportence
I guess by troubles and tpattenders posts we all just made this stuff up, its all spite coming from us because why? hmmm we weren't made elders. NO, I mean who wants to go to all those meetings, and have to be at pastor mikes beck and call. of coarse you do get good seats at church, and have a certain air of importance which is impressive. Or is we didnt get to sing on the worship team, hmmmm man all those practices and getting to church early naw I dont think so. what could be the source of our discontent, It certainly isnt that it makes us popular, feel good, or influential in change at turningpoint. No to go through the agony we all faced it must have been something we could no longer deny, justify, or just wish away. are we liars here, trouble and tpattender is that what you think? Is pastor Jackie the biggest liar of all then, did she leave a job which paided quite well, people she loved and needed as much as they needed her, a place she scraficed her time, and heart, and even family's comfort for. all for a lie ? It is so much harder doing the right thing then justifying, rationalizing a lie. I wished all the stuff said on here were lies. believe me

trouble...welcome. Thanks for sharing. I am curious as to what was in your post that was banned from the forum...as I have seen many posts on this forum and for something to banned by the moderator it has to be pretty heavy handed in attacking those on this forum or something of that nature. The moderator would not ban anything that sought to bring balance or light to the issues.

Anyway, welcome. I applaud your willingness to continue to seek truth. That is what this forum is all about-seeking truth...exposing lies...etc.


Regarding speculation of Mike and Tony: I would encourage you to reexamine the conclusion you have come to about Mike and his relationship with Tony C. The facts are that Mike has had a long standing relationship with Tony C dating back to the early 1990's. The facts are Tony C and Radiant Life church have been seen as a model to follow by Mike. The facts are Tony has visited TPC many times (Mike and has instructed its leaders and its students in SOMA (the most recent visit being this February). The facts are that Mike views Tony C. as a spiritual authority; the facts are that Mike submitted himself unto Tony as a "spiritual son". These are facts-not speculation.

I would challenge you to ask' "Why is it that no one can point to any document that clearly states the church's/SOMAs current financial standing and clearly spells out what each staff member is paid". Healthy churches make this information readily available to their congregation.

Your spirited defense of TPc is welcomed. And we are glad you were able to bring "balance".

Trouble;

I have never, nor will I ever represent this forum.

Hope that helps.