So I had to ask myself, if the bible doesn't teach that these gifts are done away with, but Thieme does. Surely, if a man with as limited education as myself can figure out what 1Corinthians 13:8-10 is saying, the Col can figure it out too. Especially, when you look at the context surrounding those verses. It is as plain as the nose on my face that Paul is referring to Christ's return here, not the completion of the bible.

Afterall, it makes perfect sense that when Jesus returns we won't need our spiritual gifts anymore. But why would the bible being completed make the spiritual gifts obsolete? In my estimation, it wouldn't.

So why does Thieme teach this?

Well, I don't know about knolwedge. I think that was a gift to where people were just easily able to read the word and understand it very efficiently.

But the other two gifts, prophecy and tongues....

The Col desired a very organized, very quiet, well-mannered, well-behaved, SILENT congregation. Order was more important to him than anything. And these two gifts would break up that order to some extent.

For example, tongues is a charismatic type of gift by nature. It requires praying outloud first of all, which is strictly prohibited in the auditorium at Berachah (note I said Auditorium, and not Sanctuary.) So that would be a "distraction to the serious students of the word of God" therefore it would not be allowed. As if using a gift given to you by God, in God's church, would indicate you are somehow less spiritual, just because you aren't being silent.

And then there's prophecy. Well, according to how it was used in the Corinthian church, and the churches described in Acts. It would involve someone speaking to the church congregation during the church services, other than the pastor, and clearly that would never do. Because according to this gift, God does speak and reveal truthes and mysteries to people other than pastors. So I think it's obvious why that would be discouraged in Berachah church.

This is a lot of info to digest, but the end result is I had a negative attitude toward any Christian praising God in any way that was even slightly charismatic. And I felt pretty bad about that, at the times when I really noticed it.
Who the hell am I to judge people's motives for worshipping God? Talk about a pharisee in the making.

But that's just how I am starting to see Berachah. As a bunch of Pharisees, and col thieme the head member of the sanhedron. Very knowledgeable and dedicated men, who just don't get it at all.


But this had made me into a Christian who was very critical of other Christians, and other churches that did not agree with the Col's teaching.

And it had hurt my marriage. We are still being healed from my past sins.
And I arrogantly took the proud stance, well, I am a good husband. I don't drink, smoke, gamble, look at other women, and on and on the legalistic list.... But I was doing something else. I was stumbling my wife, spiritually.
She was doing the best she could do to serve God in the way that she knew in her heart was right, and I was criticizing her for it, and making her feel guilty for it.

It has caused other problems in our marriage. I have always been taught about right man/right woman, so because of that I had some very skewed ideas about how marriage is supposed to be. I expected perfection, and needless to say I didnt' get it. So instead of thinking, all newly weds go through this adjusting period, and it's normal to argue now and then, etc. I start thinking, this must not be my right woman, and since I don't believe divorce is legitimate. I adopt the attitude that I am just stuck with the wrong person from now on. So I get depressed about that. And she gets hurt by that too.



That's not who I want to be.
That's now who I believe God wants me to be either.



For now, I have stopped listening to any mp3's from any pastors who are even remotely associated with Berachah, or ever have been. Instead I am starting to read my bible, daily. Col Thieme's lectures are not our "daily bread," the bible is.


I do believe that if I could fluently read/speak koine Greek I would be able to get more from reading my bible. Or Hebrew or Aramaic for that matter. But, I also believe that the fine outstanding bible scholars who translated the many different mainstream translations, (like the KJV, NASB, NET, NIV, ASV, NKJV, etc.) have done a fine job. And if there are any errors (and I'm sure there are a few), those errors are not going to stunt my spiritual growth in any significant way. But acception the Col's corrections is no less an exercise in putting my faith in man, than just reading my NASB at home. Either way I am taking someone's translation as true. Who is more qualified, men who's job it is to translate the scriptures, who have spent their whole lives doing so, and who are working as a team, so there is a little bit of checks and balances, or one man who claims to be right?

PRAISE GOD!!!!!

Wayne. WOW! GOD IS GREAT! Do NOT be afraid to SHOUT it from the Rooftops! (you know instead of sitting quietly)

Be prepared to SWAMPED with his Word. It is supposed to happen. Keep reading and you will GROW!

You can not image the Joy in my heart to read your words, it gives me Hope with my wife. Just keep up the reading.


My humble advise is:

Apologize to your WIFE, tell her your sorry for the unloving thoughts you had for her in the past. ASK her to help you get through this! She might be upset with you for a bit, you don't have to share details.

Always remember God made Eve as a helper for Adam! Let her help you!

With these two little things, your marriage will BLOOM!

If you would like, I can get you in contact with a Counselor in H-town who knows the ins-outs of the Bob's teachings and loves to help people fleeing that wreck of a church. She's still trying to help her children recover from that place...

kcjones

Quote
kcjones
PRAISE GOD!!!!!

Wayne. WOW! GOD IS GREAT! Do NOT be afraid to SHOUT it from the Rooftops! (you know instead of sitting quietly)

Be prepared to SWAMPED with his Word. It is supposed to happen. Keep reading and you will GROW!

You can not image the Joy in my heart to read your words, it gives me Hope with my wife. Just keep up the reading.


My humble advise is:

Apologize to your WIFE, tell her your sorry for the unloving thoughts you had for her in the past. ASK her to help you get through this! She might be upset with you for a bit, you don't have to share details.

Always remember God made Eve as a helper for Adam! Let her help you!

With these two little things, your marriage will BLOOM!

If you would like, I can get you in contact with a Counselor in H-town who knows the ins-outs of the Bob's teachings and loves to help people fleeing that wreck of a church. She's still trying to help her children recover from that place...

kcjones

Well, I am thankful for you and the others who have been gentle with a hard-headed ex-Thiemite.

I think the only counsellor I need is God. I really think He has already started healing me.

I have been married about 4 months, and we have been on the brink of divorce about 4 times already. Neither of us knew why. We love each other more than anything, and we both hate divorce. But deep down, I resented her and I didn't even know why (until now.) And she resented me because I resented her, and away we go.

We had a wonderful weekend together last weekend and not one single fight. I don't feel like my marriage is making me compromise my spiritual beliefs anymore. That was a huge problem for me, and consequently for us.


We have had a nice long talk, and she is very proud of me for facing this head-on.

We have been acting like we were walking in the same direction, but it wasn't real. It's real now!!! Praise God!!!!!!

Quote
kcjones
PRAISE GOD!!!!!

Wayne. WOW! GOD IS GREAT! Do NOT be afraid to SHOUT it from the Rooftops! (you know instead of sitting quietly)

Be prepared to SWAMPED with his Word. It is supposed to happen. Keep reading and you will GROW!

You can not image the Joy in my heart to read your words, it gives me Hope with my wife. Just keep up the reading.


My humble advise is:

Apologize to your WIFE, tell her your sorry for the unloving thoughts you had for her in the past. ASK her to help you get through this! She might be upset with you for a bit, you don't have to share details.

Always remember God made Eve as a helper for Adam! Let her help you!

With these two little things, your marriage will BLOOM!

If you would like, I can get you in contact with a Counselor in H-town who knows the ins-outs of the Bob's teachings and loves to help people fleeing that wreck of a church. She's still trying to help her children recover from that place...

kcjones

AND ALL GODS PEOPLE SAY AMEN!
What a great and encouraging testimony, even if you don't believe Charismatic practice is biblical, for a THEIMER to be actually reading his English Bible and concluding that Thieme is not infallible and is in fact the head of his very own Sanhedrin is A MIRACLE.

Now about that counselor.

I have been searching for an "exit" counselor (that I could afford) for myself for years. Nobody wants to hear about Thieme. They want me to shut up about him and MOVE ON. I think this is counterproductive, but it is hard going it alone as I have had to do.

Do you or your counselor friend have recommendations for finding such help where I live? I can PM you to tell you my area of the country.

Thanks. and again. PRAISE GOD!

Sistersoap

Praise God indeed! I've come back after a long hiatus and it was nice to read your thoughts. Lord willing, you'll continue to read your Bible and be blessed by God's Word. It can be very difficult at times to realize that we were/or are wrong on but God is amazing and merciful. Many of the testimonies here attest to that.

Personally, I've become more reformed in my understanding of theology but along the way I took some Greek courses from Tyndale Theological Seminary ( [www.tyndale.edu] ). Tyndale is a Dispensational school. If you really feel the desire to know Greek, they have some distance learning courses you could take and they were pretty good. Doing that helped me see that, like you mentioned, the translators of the English Bibles know, collectively, a lot more than any one Bible teacher does and that our English Bibles are really quite good.

Numbers 6:24–26

Thiemite,

You were gone too long! Testy and I have been holding down the fort and you missed a couple of drive-bys by some tapers.


Don't forget Tyndale, he was one sharp cookie, nothing like translating the Living Word while on the run, you know just like Bob was when he was 'teaching' in the Galleria Area of Houston.

I think the difference was, Tyndale was given a divine mission to spread the Word in English, unlike the gunk that Bob jabbered about, and he accomplished that.

Granted he was burned at the stake, while being choked. But hey as one from Thiemepark said "it was a noble gesture", you know, dying for God's Word.

I don't know what it is about the sheep that come out of this flock, but there is a coldness about them that is disturbing.

kcjones

Quote
kcjones
I don't know what it is about the sheep that come out of this flock, but there is a coldness about them that is disturbing.
kcjones

That's true. There is that coldness.

Testy

Quote
Truthtesty

Quote
kcjones
I don't know what it is about the sheep that come out of this flock, but there is a coldness about them that is disturbing.
kcjones

That's true. There is that coldness.

Testy

That was the main thing that drove me away from Berachah in the first place. It was the best thing that could happen to me, it turns out.

Quote
Imjustme
Mile2,

I did respond about the C.G. Hunt book, but it apparently did not get posted.
I said this is, indeed, a serious charge, but before I dump the beliefs I've held
for 37 years I would like more information about the author.

What is his full name? I did some cursory investigating, and I can only find this
one book to his credit. Has he written other biographies? I would like to read a
summary of his politics, so to speak, an author profile. I am a published author
myself, and I know this information should be provided for any legitimate
writer.

I assume the author conducted extensive interviews with Thieme, and they are
cited in his work? This is standard procedure for a biographer of a living subject.
If he did not include verbatim quotations by Thieme, his biography is bunk.

It is highly irregular for a liar of the magnitude that you claim Thieme is to lie
to his congregation for years, then spill his guts to be printed in a book, is it
not?

The reason I ask these questions, among other things, is that I find it odd that
anyone would choose to write a book about a minister that is relatively obscure,
from a church that just a relative handfull of Christians have ever heard of, and
if they have, they could care less? Either this man is an ardent admirer of Thieme,
or just another heckler. He certainly didn't write it for profit, which is the motive
almost every author on earth would have, else he would have selected a famous
man to write about, like Billy Graham, or the like.

A few of the statements you made about this book raised a red flag in my mind;

So what if Thieme Sr. was a salesman? So what if he moved into a triplex? These
facts, if true, prove nothing. The richest man I know, personally, had millions, but
lived in the same nondescript house in Bellaire, Texas, and drove a rusted out Buick
the whole time I knew him (He was a silent partner in my father's real estate
business). Unless you knew his parents left him a chunk of the Permian Basin, the
richest oil country in the world, and he married a Stratton (heir of the Briggs and
Stratton fortune) you would think he was just a "man of modest means". Fact is,
he was just a penny pinching old putz.

Wikipedia cites that the Thiemes moved to Beverly Hills when they inherited a large
family estate. This would also support what I just said. Thieme Sr.'s occupation would
be of no consequence. Bob Thieme's uncle founded Lincoln National Life Insurance
in Fort Wayne, Indiana (where Theime was born). His name was Arthur Hunt. I don't
know where the inheritance came from, but this is one very likely source.

It also occured to me that Mr. C.G.Hunt may also be a relative of Arthur, and one very
feasable reason he wrote this book was because he was cut out of the will. I don't know,
but as I said, I need many questions answered before I embrace this book as factual
and unbiased. At this point there is good reason to hold this book as highly suspect.

I hope this response satisfies your post. I will look into this matter, I assure you, as
I am understandably concerned if Bob is a liar.

TO IMJUSTME:
Not that I think you are going to reply, but I suspect strongly that you are still reading:

Let me begin responding to your post above with some comments on Hunt's unauthorized biography of Bob Thieme Jr.

FIRST,
When I found out that RBT Jr. was suffering from Alzheimer's and was no longer teaching, I thought, how sad. He never wrote his memoirs or an autobiography. He will be taking all his memoirs to his grave, except for what he shared with close friends and family. The rest of us will never know any details. So being very naive and new to being on the "outside" I innocently went on to a very large popular discussion group OF PRO-THIEMERS over on Delphi. {for those who are interested, it is called BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP} I posted a suggestion that Bob ought to have an official biography to give his account of his life so all of his followers can have it to enjoy.

NOT SO! Our leader is too dedicated to studying and teaching to waste his time with an autobiography! {Besides it is too late, and that was my whole point.} How about one written by a follower? NOPE. WE KNOW HE WOULD NOT WANT THAT, IT WOULD DETRACT FROM THE THRUST OF HIS MINISTRY, which was STUDY AND TEACH, STUDY AND TEACH. NOTHING else. I was firmly put in my place for ever thinking such an UNHOLY thought.

So what does that leave except "unauthorized" accounts that anyone who wants to write is free to write? This is still America and they are free to do so. One must start somewhere, and it seems to me that C.G. Hunt has made an honest beginning. I have read excerpts and have the book itself on the way to me as I type this message. Every writer has to have A FIRST BOOK and because it is first does not make it invalid. From what I do know of its contents, he said straight out that this was to be strictly factual material glathered from public documents available to anyone who cares to look for them. He specifically said that he included NO INTERVIEWS WITH ANYONE to avoid personal prejudices, I presume either the PRO or the CON kind.

So what is wrong with looking up public documents and putting together a bio from them? Who would give a rip? If there is nothing to hide, there can be no foul. On the other hand, if some assertions have been made by the subject of the biography that contradict public records, there is ample reason to shout foul. Now just who is prejudiced here, you or Hunt? If you have not read any of it, how can you be so sure it is terrible and a lie? How do you lie about public records?

Nobody {except Jesus} has led an absolutely stellar, spotless life in its entirety, including Thieme or any of his relatives. As far as I can tell, there are NO UNVERIFIABLE ASSERTIONS in this book. If there have been any exaggerations or misreprentations about his history by Bob Thieme regarding things for which there is a public record paper trail, then it ought to be made known and to be SPREAD AS WIDELY AS WERE THE ORIGINAL CLAIMS. That is the Biblical way of correcting a misrepresntation.

On the other hand, truths Bob related about his history would be confirmed. And that too is a good thing.

One thing that mightily surprised me about Thieme's military record was that he was never in combat. Another was that his WWII record indicates he was a staff officer in the USA the whole time. He wrote a TRAINING MANUAL for the Army Air Corps cadets, and STANDARDIZED the training throughout the whole program. And THIS is ALL. He hastened to get his highest rank put in for at the last minute before the war ended and his service was terminated. Anyone probably would have done the same, except that they did not continually use their rank as a personal badge in their careers afterwards, especially if they became a pastor. His entire church was militarized and so was his teaching. We do see military references and metaphors in the New Testament, but we DO NOT SEE THIS BEING MADE A MODEL of how churches are to be run. The New Testament church is called the BODY OF CHRIST, not the ARMY of Christ.

Now this record shows a good organizer and adequate service and an honorable discharge. He did serve in the subsequent conflicts of Korea and maybe even Viet Nam, but I have not found out yet the nature or location of this service, but I expect to when the Hunt bio arrives. But Bob's life was never in danger and he was no hero. AND THAT WAS A SHOCK TO ME having heard Bob gush about his military service for so many years on his tapes and books. OTHER PASTORS SERVED ALSO AND THEY DID NOT INSIST ON BEING CALLED "COLONEL" by their churches later in their professional careers as ministers of the Gospel. That is UNUSUAL to say the least.

Now for responses to your post:

YOU SAID:
What is his full name? I did some cursory investigating, and I can only find this
one book to his credit. Has he written other biographies? I would like to read a
summary of his politics, so to speak, an author profile. I am a published author
myself, and I know this information should be provided for any legitimate
writer.

COMMENT:
Get the book and see what is there. Everyone starts with a first book, even you. It is not suspect because of that. Tell us what you have published so we can check you out by the same standards you impose on Hunt before you will accept his writing as valid. Give us a summary of your politics so we can see if it is "approved" according to Thieme or anyone else.


YOU SAID:
I assume the author conducted extensive interviews with Thieme, and they are
cited in his work? This is standard procedure for a biographer of a living subject.
If he did not include verbatim quotations by Thieme, his biography is bunk.

COMMENT:
"IF HE DID NOT MAKE VERBATIM QUOTES OF THIEME HIS BIOGRAPHY IS BUNK? You have not even read it and you are dismissing it totally. Hunt never claimed his work was personal, in fact he bent over backwards simply to establish PUBLIC RECORD FACTS to avoid any possible PREJUDICE unlike you who condemn it out of hand and unread.


YOU SAID:
It is highly irregular for a liar of the magnitude that you claim Thieme is to lie
to his congregation for years, then spill his guts to be printed in a book, is it
not?


COMMENT:
See my comments above about the question of ANY BIOGRAPHY being composed by ANY PRO THIEME PERSON. Granted, I floated the question only on one forum, but it is completely positive to Thieme and as far as I can see is typical of all Thieme groups I have ever been in personally or ever heard of from others.

As for Thieme being a liar, read the book then make up your own mind.


YOU SAID:
The reason I ask these questions, among other things, is that I find it odd that
anyone would choose to write a book about a minister that is relatively obscure,
from a church that just a relative handfull of Christians have ever heard of, and
if they have, they could care less? Either this man is an ardent admirer of Thieme,
or just another heckler. He certainly didn't write it for profit, which is the motive
almost every author on earth would have, else he would have selected a famous
man to write about, like Billy Graham, or the like.


COMMENT:
So if a man chooses a subject for biography and the subject is obscure his motives are suspect? Who would care? Why is this such a traumatic discussion for you? It is PUBLIC RECORDS, for crying out loud. Read it and reply to it HERE, PLEASE! You can DEFEND YOUR COLONEL in public. Don't miss a chance to prove us WRONG. But then, maybe that IS THE PROBLEM. You don't want to engage in a truly objective discussion especially if there is the teeniest chance of there being a crack or a flaw in your hero's armor.


YOU SAID:
A few of the statements you made about this book raised a red flag in my mind;

So what if Thieme Sr. was a salesman? So what if he moved into a triplex? These
facts, if true, prove nothing. The richest man I know, personally, had millions, but
lived in the same nondescript house in Bellaire, Texas, and drove a rusted out Buick
the whole time I knew him (He was a silent partner in my father's real estate
business). Unless you knew his parents left him a chunk of the Permian Basin, the
richest oil country in the world, and he married a Stratton (heir of the Briggs and
Stratton fortune) you would think he was just a "man of modest means". Fact is,
he was just a penny pinching old putz.


COMMENT:
Thieme has plainly made claims to having forfeited a sizable inheritance when he decided to become a pastor. He claimed his father disinherited him and he "suffered for his Christian convictions." This is HIGHLY RELEVANT TO THIS DISCUSSION because of Thieme's references to his personal dedication to studying and teaching above and beyond all other pastors of this generation. He gave up a fortune for the Word of God, he says and strongly implies it more than once on his tapes. THIEME IS THE ONE WHO MADE THIS CLAIM REPEATEDLY. If language means anything at all, then it is important to find out just how sizable this so called inheritance might have been. It comes up short in Hunt's bio examination of public records. As far as I know, Hunt avoids pejorative terms and statements. ALL OF WHICH IF TRUE YOU SAY PROVES NOTHING.


YOU SAID:
Wikipedia cites that the Thiemes moved to Beverly Hills when they inherited a large
family estate. This would also support what I just said. Thieme Sr.'s occupation would
be of no consequence. Bob Thieme's uncle founded Lincoln National Life Insurance
in Fort Wayne, Indiana (where Theime was born). His name was Arthur Hunt. I don't
know where the inheritance came from, but this is one very likely source.

COMMENT:
WIKIPEDIA is no final authority on anything. Their web pages' contents are composed and posted by anyone who wants to "opine", so they are all to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

AGAIN READ HUNT'S BOOK AND SEE WHAT IS CLAIMED BEFORE YOU REJECT OUT OF HAND any conclusions coming from it. When I ordered my copy from Amazon this past Friday there were four copies left in stock, more on the way, they said. So get yours while you can. Don't you want to exopse a liar? Well, here is your chance.


YOU SAID:
It also occured to me that Mr. C.G.Hunt may also be a relative of Arthur, and one very
feasable reason he wrote this book was because he was cut out of the will. I don't know, but as I said, I need many questions answered before I embrace this book as factual and unbiased. At this point there is good reason to hold this book as highly suspect.


COMMENT:
Nobody is asking anyone to "embrace" Hunt's book, and certainly not before YOU HAVE AT LEAST READ IT IN ITS ENTIRETY. If its facts are accurate, don't you want to at least know what was said? If its facts are inaacurate, then someone should challenge them.

THIEME ALWAYS SAID HIS POLICY WAS TO IGNORE CRITICS AND NOT TO ANSWER THEM. Even when people "plagiarized' his work, he did not want to pursure the matter. And you well know that some have taken his work and published it under their names with their own embellishments. I was personally present at a local "face to face" Thieme conference in my area when I heard Thieme respond to a comment about this specific person from one of us in the audience. I also heard his reply. Basically, it was "SHHHHH!"


YOU SAID
I hope this response satisfies your post. I will look into this matter, I assure you, as
I am understandably concerned if Bob is a liar

COMMENT:
PLEASE DO LOOK INTO IT, and bring what you find back to THIS FORUM THREAD so we can follow the results of your research. and how about sharing with us the title of your own published work so we can buy it and read it?

With bio and political opinions plainly stated as well, please.


Sistersoap

Quote
kcjones
Ok Back from a semi-restful weekend.

Im, when I spoke about Jonah, He refused to go to Nineveh, which happened to be in Assyrian territory. Now remember, if we all believe God's word to be true, then if he meant the City and not the Country when it was written, then we have to stick to what God said there, and be precise.

This is one of my 'issues' with Bob's 'teaching', he never taught the fundamental Bible stories, which Paul said was beneficial. My wife, bless her heart, knows the ins-and-outs of 1st century Roman politics, but could not tell you who/why the 3 were tossed into a fiery furnace (Dan 3:8). If God wanted us to know the inside baseball of Roman politics in the 1st century, he would have put it in that little book. Not to harp on you, but getting John and Peter mixed up after 37 years of 'studying' tells me the something is amiss in the teaching method. It really pains me to see people so passionate about God, (you as well as my bride) but then to miss some of the biggest lessons available to us God's word.

-Listening to Bob's Teaching

Well I do you one better, I have actually listened to quite a few lessons from Bob (my wife playing them), read some of his 'booklets' and have even been to Berachah a couple times when both Bob and Bobby have taught. Now remember I didn't know squat about any of this until 5-1/2 years ago. But here are some of my Observations:

1. Cursing from the puplit (or you liked to call it salty old war-horse) this to me was like mixing water and oil, the mannerisms/and coursness of speech that Bob used had no place with God's word, I heard people talking like that Offshore, one of the reasons I quit that line of work, there is no excuse for it. (Eph 5:4)

2. Walking around Berachah with a open eyes, goodness, I felt like I was walking into shrine of a man, and not the One nailed to the cross. There are A LOT of photos of Bob there on the walls...I thought it was about God's word, not the teacher, he might tell you that it's not about him, but the place did not come across as that. Paul said he was LEAST of the apostles, -- "Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility count others more significant than yourselves." This goes for us as well as the Teachers.

3. Adding to the Scriptures - this is a biggy for me, Bob actually said that Jesus Christ Visited Uriah before he died due to David's covering a lie. Now I spent months trying to figure out where this was said in the bible, and figured out he just added this. But it is still WRONG(makes for a good story though) . Nowhere in the bible did it say Uriah was a general officer either, Joab order him to the front (means someone else was the 'general'). (Rev 22:18)

4. Books, just for an example his book on canonocity of scripture, Bob did a POOR job of citing sources, most would call it plagurism, I can not believe that he did all that original research into the history of scripture by himself. It would have served the Lord better if he had shown where he condensed all the information he had in there. You as an author should be very sensitive to that.

About his military service, Bob flew a desk during the war (I have good friends that are officers in the Air Force, and this is a funny way of saying bureaucrat ). Don't get me wrong, being an administrator of a training facility is an important job during wartime, but he was as about as far removed from the ultimate sacrifice one can make during war as you can get. His love of war and battle also does not fit with those who have 'seen the elephant' (had to kill their fellow man) that I have met in my life, and really doesn't fit with a man teaching about God's Love for us fallen creatures.

And fundamentally, this is why I have so many problems with Berachah church, the lack of Love in the church body. Now before anyone goes to the and uses the ulitmate trump and calls me a 'Hippie', please be aware that when I 'rebelled' during my youth, I went and got a flat-top without my parents permission. I'm about as 'hippie' as Hank Hill is (from King of the Hill). Bob denigrating God's other ministries, sharing the Gospel, taking care of those in need, etc. is not what He taught his children. So much potential was wasted there because I think Bob's lack of Love of his fellow man, it just breaks my heart to no end.

Imjustme,
TT he is very passionate about Bob's ministry because he's been hurt more than most, and please don't diminish that pain, it is what it is, and he's doing what he can, argue the points or ignore him, don't mock the man. Remember, deep cuts take a long time to heal.

I don't want to 'joust' with you. But I would be HAPPY to correspond with you. - You've posted enough you should be able to send me an PM through the bulletin board now. I have one request for you though. Would you read out-loud some scripture to yourself for me? Doesn't have to be in front of anyone, just by your lonesome, right before you start your tape up. Come on humor this 'hippie', it can't hurt nothin'.

Please read out-loud, TWICE: 1st Corinthians 13: 1-3

I'll even post up the ESV version for those who don't have a bible handy.

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

On a fun note, please be careful Chicken when you head back to the 'Colonel' - He does have those 11 herbs and spices....

Hi KC!
Thanks for your level headed and quite balanced response to IM. I wanted to say the exact same things! You said them for me, and did a very good job.

Some specifics:
YOU SAID:
Im, when I spoke about Jonah, He refused to go to Nineveh, which happened to be in Assyrian territory. Now remember, if we all believe God's word to be true, then if he meant the City and not the Country when it was written, then we have to stick to what God said there, and be precise.

This is one of my 'issues' with Bob's 'teaching', he never taught the fundamental Bible stories, which Paul said was beneficial. My wife, bless her heart, knows the ins-and-outs of 1st century Roman politics, but could not tell you who/why the 3 were tossed into a fiery furnace (Dan 3:8). If God wanted us to know the inside baseball of Roman politics in the 1st century, he would have put it in that little book.


---->>>Not to harp on you, but getting John and Peter mixed up after 37 years of 'studying' tells me the something is amiss in the teaching method. It really pains me to see people so passionate about God, (you as well as my bride) but then to miss some of the biggest lessons available to us God's word.

COMMENT:
AMEN! Such startling inaccuracies flung out by one claiming such long time "under"Thieme shows well how unbalanced and minute teaching can miss the majors while concentrating on the minors. Happens all the time with Thiemers. All those years in the Thiemepark makes one mistake what comes from Thieme's mouth, tapes and books SCRIPTURE, as he claims he is TEACHING BIBLE DOCTRINE and you can't get it elsewhere, certainly not by reading the Bible.

I would rather have a biblical literate Janitor to talk over God's Word than a "highly educated" (TWELVE YEARS NO LESS} scholar who is soooo impressed with his own intelligence and studies! One must be TEACHABLE to profit from the Scriptures and Thiemers are not teachable as long as they continue to believe every word Thieme says just because he said it. This results in less than stellar performance when defending their hero. He would be embarrassed by their egregious errors. He felt free to CORRECT the Bible himself, so it was OK for him to ASSUME things and preach them as BIBLE DOCTRINE. That was OK. Where are all the really smart Thieme followers? Why don't they post in these forums? I don't know. But one would think such moral superiority and such intellectual giftedness would tranlate to the hearers after THIRTY SEVEN YEARS. One can judge the fruit of a ministry by looking at how the students turn out. The more they keep defending him, the more they prove our point. They can't help it, that is what they were indoctrinated to do. They don't even know they are indoctrinated. They think they are educated.

If they were truly Biblically literate, they could go to the Bible and find what Thieme says is so right there without referring to Thieme's sermons, classes, tapes and books. I have yet to find one who can do that. Have you? I know I could not. I would just say, well, listen to this tape or read this book, and you will see what I am talking about.


YOU SAID:
1. Cursing from the puplit (or you liked to call it salty old war-horse) this to me was like mixing water and oil, the mannerisms/and coursness of speech that Bob used had no place with God's word, I heard people talking like that Offshore, one of the reasons I quit that line of work, there is no excuse for it. (Eph 5:4)

COMMENT: I too had a filthy mouth in my Thieme days. The Lord has delivered me from that bad habit for the most part. People do not believe me who did not know me "before" but it was true, and it was solely due to the influence of Thieme and his example.


YOU SAID:
2. Walking around Berachah with a open eyes, goodness, I felt like I was walking into shrine of a man, and not the One nailed to the cross. There are A LOT of photos of Bob there on the walls...I thought it was about God's word, not the teacher...

COMMENT:
When I was at Berachah, I did not get to look around very much. Just in and out and walked back to the hotel at the Galleria on foot. But the atmosphere is definitely reverent toward the teacher. And the emphasis is all wrong! The pharisees were just as devoted to God's Word as Thieme ever was, and they were the greatest enemise Christ had among his own people. HE CAME UNTO HIS OWN AND HIS OWN KNEW HIM NOT.


YOU SAID:
3. Adding to the Scriptures - this is a biggy for me, Bob actually said that Jesus Christ Visited Uriah before he died due to David's covering a lie. Now I spent months trying to figure out where this was said in the bible, and figured out he just added this. But it is still WRONG(makes for a good story though) . Nowhere in the bible did it say Uriah was a general officer either, Joab order him to the front (means someone else was the 'general'). (Rev 22:18)

COMMENT:
DEFINITELY a biggie for me, too. Thieme claimed for himself to be a stickler for accuracy and a mastery of the details not just of life, but of Scripture, he communicated his own opinions and conclusions as if they were BIBLE DOCTRINE, and this is just as much adding to Scripture as his "corrected" translations were.

In fact, it was this that first came to my notice as I began pulling away from the absolute trust I had in his teaching. So much of his made up vocabulary was just not in the Word of God I slooooly began to wonder if this was the same thing as TEACHING THINGS THAT WERE NOT IN THE WORD OF GOD TO BEGIN WITH. Gradually, I came to the conclusion that the answer to this is YES, it is the same.

Bad to muddy the waters of the fount of truth, God's Words.


YOU SAID:
4. Books, just for an example his book on canonocity of scripture, Bob did a POOR job of citing sources, most would call it plagurism, I can not believe that he did all that original research into the history of scripture by himself. It would have served the Lord better if he had shown where he condensed all the information he had in there. You as an author should be very sensitive to that.

COMMENT:
I recently reread Thieme's book CANONICITY. It is noteworthy for what is NOT MENTIONED as well as for what it does say. This one sidedness in favor of modern unbelieving scholarship is typical of most seminaries these days, sadly. The results are that the SCHOLAR so called has a lot missing in his education and searching out the missing pieces began to free me from Thieme's exclusivity claims on the truth.



YOU MENTIONED THIEME'S MILITARY SERVICE and it is certainly not what one would think just by listening to him or reading his books, or from talking with others who follow him.

It is just fine to honor our military and its mission. But I don't think one should mould one's church life into a military format. Members of the BODY OF CHRIST are not given rank, precedence and reward in this life, they are only privileged to have the living Christ himself living in each and every one of them without fear or favor. The blessings you do or don't have in this life are not stages in your progress to UBERGRACE and the COVETED BUT VERY RARE DYING GRACE provision. Your focus is on Christ and His life not you and your life, your studies, your blessings, your rewards and on and on and on. We are BLESSED WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN THE HEAVENLIES. God's grades us PASS/FAIL, and all who are IN CHRIST PASS.

Thieme's teachings on rank and rewards or lack of same sets up an unhealthy competition and continual self checking to see if one has "made it" to the "next level" of superduper grace three, or any other name Thieme cared to invent. It is not biblical! Yes, our works will be evaluated by Christ, and we will receive rewards, which we will then GIVE BACK TO HIM FOR ALL ETERNITY. There is NO indication of the details, and certainly nothing whatever like WINNER and LOSER BELIEVERS proud and ashamed as the case may be for all eternity. He set up just another system of FEAR AND GUILT and makes it just as legalistically obligatory as the ''FUNDYS" {fundamentalists} he made so much fun of sneering at them from the pulpit, communicating his utter disdain for them to all of us.


YOU SAID:
About TESTYTRUTH,
TT he is very passionate about Bob's ministry because he's been hurt more than most, and please don't diminish that pain, it is what it is, and he's doing what he can, argue the points or ignore him, don't mock the man. Remember, deep cuts take a long time to heal.

COMMENT:
THANKS! That is a good way to look at what Testy is about here and elsewhere. Judging him without knowing all the facts is very unfair, and he gets more than his fair share of criticism. I feel sure that Testy has not told all about his painful past with Berachah, but if he did, I am sure we would understand better where his passionate opposition to Thieme comes from. I for one and grateful to him for providing the first contact online I ever had with someone who had been IN THE THIEMEPARK and LEFT and SURVIVED CONTRARY TO WHAT THIEME TAUGHT WOULD HAPPEN TO US IF WE LEFT HIS TEACHING.

Before that, I really thought I was the only one who had a problem with Thieme's teaching. I also was convinced by that same teaching that I would be DIVINELY HAMMERED OR EVEN KILLED BY GOD for leaving. That is what Thieme taught and many many times, too. He raised GUILT AND FEAR TO TITANIC PROPORTIONS and twisted them like knives in our guts to keep up attached or make us SILENT.

Thanks to this forum and others like it and to the Internet in general WE ARE SILENT NO MORE. For too long there was ONLY POSITIVE available from Thieme followers. Now that we who have left have a place and a voice, they don't like it. But they more they try to defend him and his teachings, the more they prove the effects he has on people who listen to him habitually and believe what he says.


YOU REFERRED TO 1 COR 13. Bravo! I found out that IS WHAT GOD'S LOVE FOR ME IS LIKE just as much as it describes the kind of love I ought to have for others. While "under" Thieme it never occurred to me that this passage described God's love for me! Thieme insists that God's love for us is IMPERSONAL. I suspect that this terminology is often misunderstood, and that he ought to have discontinued it. Why not do like the bible does and use Bible words for Bible concepts and events? Because you will stick out like a sore thumb if you try to change them, add to them, or omit them, that is why.

I hope all Thiemers get very hungry indeed for God's real love and it is described in this passage. Take the English for what it says for crying out loud. Submitting absolutely to whatever someone tells you just because they are a self proclaimed expert in the "original languages" and you are blessed with superior knowlege because of this superior teacher leaves all other Christians in the dust. Think what thay means: it means all other Christians of other times and places who never heard of Hebrew and Greek are at a total disadvantage compared to YOU. Thieme is not that good, that exclusive, nor was he teaching only his own ideas. He used stuff fom other people all the time and never bothered to mention it. He also neglected work of men who ought to have been familiar to him.

Even if all you ever have is an English Bible, you still have JESUS. You do what you may with with the Bible you can read, and you will grow no matter if you never hear a word of Greek or Hebrew. Thieme's system of dependency on him is a FALSE SYSTEM. He claimed that on purpose to get people to accept what he said. It worked very well indeed on a lot of people.

FINALLY, about CHICKEN AND THE COLONEL:
I have no doubt that among those 11 herbs and spices is one called MSG;

MONO SODIUM GLUTAMATE, which makes you want to eat more CHIKIN. It is an EXCITOTOXIN and stimulates brain cells excessively damaging them. You are what you eat, and if all you eat is Thieme's teaching, your spiritual diet will be TOXIC. You will be mal nourished in spite of claims to complete and balanced spiritual nutrition. I vote for MORE DISCLOSURE OF INGREDIENTS in food, and in Bible teachers, too.

Thanks for a thoughtful and profitable response.


Sistersoap