YOU SAID:
You said:
I'll be honest, I didn't read your entire thread before posting my last reply, because it just sounded like more of the same to me. But I've read it now.

Let me get this straight. You weren't a local member of Berachah?

REPLY:
Correct. I spent thousands of dollars flying to Houston to get the holier "face to face" teaching, but I was a dedicated out of town taper.

I was not as isolated as Berachah only participants since I was not acquainted with Thieme until I was in college way back in the sixties. I continued to attend other churches from time to time so I was not totally limited to Thieme's "faith and practice" system. But I believed every word he said from his pulpit was BIBLE DOCTRINE and it NEVER OCCURRED TO ME TO DOUBT ANYTHING HE SAID for many, many years. I believed earnestly that he was teaching God's Word and only God's Word. That has turned out not to be true.

YOU SAID:
I understand there were lots of "clone churches" out there. But can you really judge a man's ministry based on some bad immitators of him? Because you may say your clone church is evidence of his failure, but I know clone churches who have had an awesome impact for the kingdom of God.

REPLY:
I said I came to believe that a man must take responsibility for what he teaches and the effects it has in the lives of his followers. Thieme is not alone in teaching some common errors in the fold of standard Christian churchianity. BUT his emphasis on his authority and expertise and consistent denigrating the ministries of nearly everyone else in Protestant Christianity shows that he is more impressed by his own intellect and his methods and "unique vocabulary" than an undershepherd ought to be. The unique features of his ministry grew to be the main course day after day and what the Bible actually says was lost sight of, and in my opinion, still is lost in the intricacies of the Thieme system. He did not learn this at Dallas Seminary! He was taught the standard but limited curriculum which told him only half the story of the history of the English Bible and glorifiec modern "scholarship" and Thieme turned this into a mission from God to give the people the benefit of his "expertise." Well, my Bible says the Holy Spirit is the TEACHER of the ordinary believer and this Spirit is able to communicate truth directly from the page of the Word to the diligent seeker. It is good to have teachers and pastors, and these are biblical functions in the whole body of believers, BUT for one such person to make a a doctrinal system out of his own study and his ADDITIONS TO THE WORD OF GOD AND "CORRECTIONS" OF IT ought not to be admired.

Because of the weaknesses of Thieme's teachings and beliefs, his followers did not learn to discern when their teacher was not following Scripture. Thus, CLONE CHURCHES AND PASTORS tend to wander even further than their Leader from the true source of revelation, which are God's Words in God's Book. Modern scholars disbelieve this and their system of "textual criticism" is at the heart of Thieme's system of "pastoring" which is really simply an educational institution as you noted under color of "church."

This is not to say that there was nothing good about what he taught. But fallible men and their hidden weaknesses of the flesh take the works oriented "grace" system Thieme taught and go even further than Thieme did. I never said that all clones were worse than Thieme or Berachah. But the fact that CLONE is an APPROPRIATE WORD THAT SURVIVORS HAVE INDEPENDENTLY COME UP WITH TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON of multiplication of Thieme's TEACHING AND HIS PERSONALITY AND MANNER ought to say a lot to you if you were open to consider some of the glaring faults in the system. It is very obvious that the clones take on Thieme's vocabulary, his personality traits, his mannerisms, and his tastes and they repackage it all under their own brand name, as a generic of the original. GENERICS DO THE SAME THING AS THE ORIGINAL BRAND, but cheaper.

BAD IMITATORS? ANY IMITATION is bad. And ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ are not to follow a man, but God Himself. Jesus was intimately and actively involved in the daily lives of everyone around Him. He demonstrated this intense love of people of all sorts in every word, thought and deed. His life is an illustration of the balance we ought to strive for. Holing up in a church study and staying there is a career in professional Bible study, not a pastoral ministry. The people in the pew were trained to accept this unquestioningly.......and you yourself said you left Berachah to find "fellowship." At least you had the courage to do that. THERE WAS A LOT MISSING AT BEREACHAH some of it very important indeed. And what happens to the teaching when it is handed down to the next generation IS A GOOD INDICATION OF ITS SOUNDNESS. When "BAD IMITATORS" go wrong it is not just a misapplication of a true doctrine Thieme taught, it is a consequence of the entire system. As little Thiemes, the clones DO NOT THINK INDEPENDENTLY OF THEIR TEACHER. They are not free to be taught outside the Thiemepark by the Lord Himself. And that is the problem whether or not the IMITATION IS BAD OR "GOOD."

Thieme's system did not teach a direct independent relationship with God Himself through Jesus Christ as revealed in the entire Bible. People could get saved under his teaching, but the growth was made impossible by the focus on HIS SPECIFIC BIBLE DOCTRINE as whatever he taught in Bible class. The Word of God will do what God sent it to do, no matter whose mouth it comes out of, but the errors that permeated the system at Berachah came from Thieme, not the Bible itself, and most of his followers are unable to see the differences. They cannot separate what Thieme taught them and what the plain Word of God says. Thieme specifically and continually taught most emphatically that the people in the pews are UNABLE and UNWARRANTED to get truth from God except through Thieme or one like him. This is NOT BIBLICAL. It IS BIBLICAL to have teachers, and to study, and to form local churches which gather to worship, learn and serve together. But the entire focus of Berachah and the clones is to learn Thieme's Bible Doctrine, not to learn what God has to say to THEM through His Word. THE HUMAN TEACHER is all in this system, and that is the biggest error in the system. It does disguised as "being under the authority of your right pastor-teacher" but there is no such precept in the New Testament making a man the sole source of truth in his particular flock. Jesus led by SERVING AND LOVING PEOPLE WHERE THEY WERE and He constantly affirmed the importance of God's Words. The "experts" of his day were the Pharisees, who had memorized the entire Torah as part of their training. They failed to recognize the LIVING WORD in the person of Jesus, and this is the same fault that Thieme's system creates.

The flesh is free in such a system to do as it pleases because the control is not the Spirit through the Word, but 'TECHNIQUES" AND DOCTRINES which a person is supposed to "apply" and grow by so doing. That is a works system putting man in charge what is designed to be a living relationship with the Living God, a PERSON, not a TECHNIQUE. The doctrine is a MEANS TO AN END, relationship with God, not the end itself. And because flesh loves to take credit for itself it loves the system of steps, techniques, and doctrines that supposedly inevitably result in "maturity" according to Thieme. This goal of "maturity" was constantly moved up as Thieme had more "doctrinal breakthroughs' and that meant that you could not reach "maturity" unless you mastered all he had taught. There was no end to it as long as he was making more tapes and books. The system itself has spawned a "movement" called by some "doctrinal churches" but the vocabulary is a giveaway that this is a Thieme based teaching. The fault is in Thieme not in the Word of God or the Person of Jesus.

To point out failures in a system or belief is not to persecute the man. We have a responsibility to compare what is taught with the Word and to evaluate the results of the teaching in the lives of those who have been "under" it for years. If good has resulted it is because God honors His Word wherever it is found and He gets that glory. but a lot of good has been by accident and in spite of the teaching, and that is something that ought to be pointed out openly. WHEN A PERSON MAKES THE CLAIMS THIEME MADE ABOUT HIMSELF AS A TEACHER and constantly compared himself extremely favorably to others whom he called "lazy, stupid and arrogant" because they did not agree with him or support his ministry, the hearers ought to have run fast to the exit. But most of us did not because we believed what he said. It is that simple. Thieme's claims about himself CREATE A HIGHER STANDARD which he ought to meet than if some plain old country preacher with no education except by the Spirit of God using the Word of God in his heart makes mistakes. The standard for all is the Word of God, and the great divide is DO YOU BELIEVE THIEME OVER THE WORD WHEN THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM? or do you never see that there is a difference? One can sit under a man's teaching and benefit even though his understanding and education may not be the highest and purest. But if he maintains a humble teachable spirit this man can lead others to further spiritual growth. But when you start out proclaiming you are THE BEST THE ONLY AND THE SMARTEST MOST DEDICATED man in the pulpit who is the only one with the courage and brains to get the truth from the "Hebrew and the Greek" then you have a dilemma. Where do you go when you start out at the top?

So in some measure it is appropriate to judge a man's ministry by how his followers and their congregations turn out. When the failures consistently result from the same teachings, the failures are caused by the teaching, and are most definitely the evidence that there are serious problems with the doctrine.

To be unable to see this ie to prove the point.

YOU SAID:
I do criticize pastor teachers. I make my choice, either to submit to their leadership or to reject it. I once accepted the colonel's authority and his teaching. Now I have a different pastor in authority over me, and I only accept the colonel's teaching at this point, and not his authority.

REPLY:
The "Colonel's" TEACHING is his authority and if you are still following the teaching you are still submitting to his authority though sitting in another pastor's congregation. You ought to first be under God's authority and the authority of His Word, and a local pastor functions a an UNDERSHEPEHERD, not a propagator of Thieme's system.

YOU SAID:
I disagreed with a few of the doctrines he taught.

REPLY:
You did not mention any.

YOU SAID:
I would be extremely (mean EXTREMELY) surprised if anyone even noticed that I had left. And I was there almost 20 years!! I garauntee that RBT III, or any of the deacons or church leadership didn't notice I had left.

REPLY:
This is a consequence of the TEACHING. This is not Biblically normal! Having been there for twenty years ought to have caused concerned inquiry by friends in the congregation. Are you OK? Did something happen to offend you? We miss you. If God leads you elsewhere, this is not a problem, but you ought not to have been ignored. The same thing happens in taper groups. If you leave, you disappear and unless you specifically seek them out, you will probably never hear from any of them again.

YOU SAID:
He diligently taught what he believed to be the truth of the word of God for over 50 years, and all he asked in return was your attention. That is NOT a cult!!!

REPLY:
He taught his study of the Word of God and what was said was in his mind BIBLE DOCTRINE. Listeners were not studying the Word directly nor were they encouraged to do so. In fact we were taught that we COULD NOT GET TRUTH FROM THE ENGLISH AT ALL, and that we HAD TO BE "UNDER" a teacher such as Thieme to get spiritual food and grow. We do need teachers in our lives, but none of them ever takes the place of the Spirit of God and the Living Word! Thieme said WE DEPENDED ON HIM whether we liked it or not. He consistently hammered this belief into our minds and this never changed. Anywhere Thieme's doctrine is propagated will follow this same belief and it is unbiblical and wrong.

YOU SAID:
This is not a place to bash Christian ministries because of doctrinal differences of opinion. This is a place to expose cults for what they are.
Your "clone" church may or may not have been a cult. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But I was at Berachah, and it was never a cult.

REPLY:
Show me where I have 'bashed' a ministry.

If this were simply a matter of a difference of opinion, that would not call for the level of concern and response I and others have given here and elsewhere. It is a matter of comparing what Scripture says with what a man has said. When there is a major disconnect with serious consequences in people's lives, ONE MUST SPEAK OUT. To be silent is to be complicit in error. It hurts people! It leads people astray to fail to warn them. There are other ministries I don't recommend because of errors I consider to be serious. I judge by what is being taught in public and compare that to what Scripture says. But my lengthy personal experience with Thieme's teachings make me responsible to speak out about error. This is not bashing. Thieme always felt perfectly free to asassinate others by calling them stupid, lazy and arrogant. THAT IS BASHING. And his audience always agreed, either silently or by laughing. I was among them for a long long time. And it took me years of consideration to be able to see the wrong in that.

I don't think ANYONE on this forum has ever called Berachah a cult on the level of Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons. But it is most definitely a HIGH DEMAND false teaching system. The extent of false doctrine is not at all immediately apparent to an outsider and everyone is begun by listening to the long ago BASICS series, which are mostly very orthodox. But as you continue in the system, Thieme adds more and more of his own special "doctrinal breakthoughs" which gradually take over the mind of the listener and form the framework for all thought within the teaching. Threats of divine discipline for quitting or leaving the teaching which is proclaimed to be BIBLE DOCTRINE make it frightening and hard to leave altogether. Fear dictates that we MUST GET THAT DAILY TAPE IN or God will bring suffering or even death into our lives as a consequence. That is CULTIC, it is error, and it is wrong. It is abusive and all cults use this same kind of fear mongering to control their followers.

An even more basic error which is very widespread these days and not limited to Thieme by any means, is the substitution of the Word of God for THE GOD OF THE WORD. It is the error of the Pharisees of old, and the apostle Paul says he counted it all as dung so that he could gain Christ.

Certainly Thieme taught what he sincerely believed was true. But in many things he became sincerely wrong.

This is what needs exposing.

Sistersoap

Quote
rrmoderator
radaph:

"Persecute"?

The claim that criticism somehow equals "persecution" is a typical response from cult members defending their group or leader.

Again, you make Thieme seem very cult-like from the comments you post on this thread.

Everyone is to blame but him, everyone should obey and submit to him and if anyone is critical of Thieme it may be labeleds "persecution."

This all appears at worst cult-like behavior and dynamics and at best unhealthy submission and devotion to a human being.

Unless of course he really is innocent, a concept I doubt you have even considered.
Maybe I'm not blaming him, because it's really not his fault.

And the "persecuted" is my name here, because I feel I have been persecuted. It's got nothing to do with Thieme.

Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
You said:
I'll be honest, I didn't read your entire thread before posting my last reply, because it just sounded like more of the same to me. But I've read it now.

Let me get this straight. You weren't a local member of Berachah?

REPLY:
Correct. I spent thousands of dollars flying to Houston to get the holier "face to face" teaching, but I was a dedicated out of town taper.

I was not as isolated as Berachah only participants since I was not acquainted with Thieme until I was in college way back in the sixties. I continued to attend other churches from time to time so I was not totally limited to Thieme's "faith and practice" system. But I believed every word he said from his pulpit was BIBLE DOCTRINE and it NEVER OCCURRED TO ME TO DOUBT ANYTHING HE SAID for many, many years. I believed earnestly that he was teaching God's Word and only God's Word. That has turned out not to be true.

YOU SAID:
I understand there were lots of "clone churches" out there. But can you really judge a man's ministry based on some bad immitators of him? Because you may say your clone church is evidence of his failure, but I know clone churches who have had an awesome impact for the kingdom of God.

REPLY:
I said I came to believe that a man must take responsibility for what he teaches and the effects it has in the lives of his followers. Thieme is not alone in teaching some common errors in the fold of standard Christian churchianity. BUT his emphasis on his authority and expertise and consistent denigrating the ministries of nearly everyone else in Protestant Christianity shows that he is more impressed by his own intellect and his methods and "unique vocabulary" than an undershepherd ought to be. The unique features of his ministry grew to be the main course day after day and what the Bible actually says was lost sight of, and in my opinion, still is lost in the intricacies of the Thieme system. He did not learn this at Dallas Seminary! He was taught the standard but limited curriculum which told him only half the story of the history of the English Bible and glorifiec modern "scholarship" and Thieme turned this into a mission from God to give the people the benefit of his "expertise." Well, my Bible says the Holy Spirit is the TEACHER of the ordinary believer and this Spirit is able to communicate truth directly from the page of the Word to the diligent seeker. It is good to have teachers and pastors, and these are biblical functions in the whole body of believers, BUT for one such person to make a a doctrinal system out of his own study and his ADDITIONS TO THE WORD OF GOD AND "CORRECTIONS" OF IT ought not to be admired.

Because of the weaknesses of Thieme's teachings and beliefs, his followers did not learn to discern when their teacher was not following Scripture. Thus, CLONE CHURCHES AND PASTORS tend to wander even further than their Leader from the true source of revelation, which are God's Words in God's Book. Modern scholars disbelieve this and their system of "textual criticism" is at the heart of Thieme's system of "pastoring" which is really simply an educational institution as you noted under color of "church."

This is not to say that there was nothing good about what he taught. But fallible men and their hidden weaknesses of the flesh take the works oriented "grace" system Thieme taught and go even further than Thieme did. I never said that all clones were worse than Thieme or Berachah. But the fact that CLONE is an APPROPRIATE WORD THAT SURVIVORS HAVE INDEPENDENTLY COME UP WITH TO DESCRIBE THE PHENOMENON of multiplication of Thieme's TEACHING AND HIS PERSONALITY AND MANNER ought to say a lot to you if you were open to consider some of the glaring faults in the system. It is very obvious that the clones take on Thieme's vocabulary, his personality traits, his mannerisms, and his tastes and they repackage it all under their own brand name, as a generic of the original. GENERICS DO THE SAME THING AS THE ORIGINAL BRAND, but cheaper.

BAD IMITATORS? ANY IMITATION is bad. And ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ are not to follow a man, but God Himself. Jesus was intimately and actively involved in the daily lives of everyone around Him. He demonstrated this intense love of people of all sorts in every word, thought and deed. His life is an illustration of the balance we ought to strive for. Holing up in a church study and staying there is a career in professional Bible study, not a pastoral ministry. The people in the pew were trained to accept this unquestioningly.......and you yourself said you left Berachah to find "fellowship." At least you had the courage to do that. THERE WAS A LOT MISSING AT BEREACHAH some of it very important indeed. And what happens to the teaching when it is handed down to the next generation IS A GOOD INDICATION OF ITS SOUNDNESS. When "BAD IMITATORS" go wrong it is not just a misapplication of a true doctrine Thieme taught, it is a consequence of the entire system. As little Thiemes, the clones DO NOT THINK INDEPENDENTLY OF THEIR TEACHER. They are not free to be taught outside the Thiemepark by the Lord Himself. And that is the problem whether or not the IMITATION IS BAD OR "GOOD."

Thieme's system did not teach a direct independent relationship with God Himself through Jesus Christ as revealed in the entire Bible. People could get saved under his teaching, but the growth was made impossible by the focus on HIS SPECIFIC BIBLE DOCTRINE as whatever he taught in Bible class. The Word of God will do what God sent it to do, no matter whose mouth it comes out of, but the errors that permeated the system at Berachah came from Thieme, not the Bible itself, and most of his followers are unable to see the differences. They cannot separate what Thieme taught them and what the plain Word of God says. Thieme specifically and continually taught most emphatically that the people in the pews are UNABLE and UNWARRANTED to get truth from God except through Thieme or one like him. This is NOT BIBLICAL. It IS BIBLICAL to have teachers, and to study, and to form local churches which gather to worship, learn and serve together. But the entire focus of Berachah and the clones is to learn Thieme's Bible Doctrine, not to learn what God has to say to THEM through His Word. THE HUMAN TEACHER is all in this system, and that is the biggest error in the system. It does disguised as "being under the authority of your right pastor-teacher" but there is no such precept in the New Testament making a man the sole source of truth in his particular flock. Jesus led by SERVING AND LOVING PEOPLE WHERE THEY WERE and He constantly affirmed the importance of God's Words. The "experts" of his day were the Pharisees, who had memorized the entire Torah as part of their training. They failed to recognize the LIVING WORD in the person of Jesus, and this is the same fault that Thieme's system creates.

The flesh is free in such a system to do as it pleases because the control is not the Spirit through the Word, but 'TECHNIQUES" AND DOCTRINES which a person is supposed to "apply" and grow by so doing. That is a works system putting man in charge what is designed to be a living relationship with the Living God, a PERSON, not a TECHNIQUE. The doctrine is a MEANS TO AN END, relationship with God, not the end itself. And because flesh loves to take credit for itself it loves the system of steps, techniques, and doctrines that supposedly inevitably result in "maturity" according to Thieme. This goal of "maturity" was constantly moved up as Thieme had more "doctrinal breakthroughs' and that meant that you could not reach "maturity" unless you mastered all he had taught. There was no end to it as long as he was making more tapes and books. The system itself has spawned a "movement" called by some "doctrinal churches" but the vocabulary is a giveaway that this is a Thieme based teaching. The fault is in Thieme not in the Word of God or the Person of Jesus.

To point out failures in a system or belief is not to persecute the man. We have a responsibility to compare what is taught with the Word and to evaluate the results of the teaching in the lives of those who have been "under" it for years. If good has resulted it is because God honors His Word wherever it is found and He gets that glory. but a lot of good has been by accident and in spite of the teaching, and that is something that ought to be pointed out openly. WHEN A PERSON MAKES THE CLAIMS THIEME MADE ABOUT HIMSELF AS A TEACHER and constantly compared himself extremely favorably to others whom he called "lazy, stupid and arrogant" because they did not agree with him or support his ministry, the hearers ought to have run fast to the exit. But most of us did not because we believed what he said. It is that simple. Thieme's claims about himself CREATE A HIGHER STANDARD which he ought to meet than if some plain old country preacher with no education except by the Spirit of God using the Word of God in his heart makes mistakes. The standard for all is the Word of God, and the great divide is DO YOU BELIEVE THIEME OVER THE WORD WHEN THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM? or do you never see that there is a difference? One can sit under a man's teaching and benefit even though his understanding and education may not be the highest and purest. But if he maintains a humble teachable spirit this man can lead others to further spiritual growth. But when you start out proclaiming you are THE BEST THE ONLY AND THE SMARTEST MOST DEDICATED man in the pulpit who is the only one with the courage and brains to get the truth from the "Hebrew and the Greek" then you have a dilemma. Where do you go when you start out at the top?

So in some measure it is appropriate to judge a man's ministry by how his followers and their congregations turn out. When the failures consistently result from the same teachings, the failures are caused by the teaching, and are most definitely the evidence that there are serious problems with the doctrine.

To be unable to see this ie to prove the point.

YOU SAID:
I do criticize pastor teachers. I make my choice, either to submit to their leadership or to reject it. I once accepted the colonel's authority and his teaching. Now I have a different pastor in authority over me, and I only accept the colonel's teaching at this point, and not his authority.

REPLY:
The "Colonel's" TEACHING is his authority and if you are still following the teaching you are still submitting to his authority though sitting in another pastor's congregation. You ought to first be under God's authority and the authority of His Word, and a local pastor functions a an UNDERSHEPEHERD, not a propagator of Thieme's system.

YOU SAID:
I disagreed with a few of the doctrines he taught.

REPLY:
You did not mention any.

YOU SAID:
I would be extremely (mean EXTREMELY) surprised if anyone even noticed that I had left. And I was there almost 20 years!! I garauntee that RBT III, or any of the deacons or church leadership didn't notice I had left.

REPLY:
This is a consequence of the TEACHING. This is not Biblically normal! Having been there for twenty years ought to have caused concerned inquiry by friends in the congregation. Are you OK? Did something happen to offend you? We miss you. If God leads you elsewhere, this is not a problem, but you ought not to have been ignored. The same thing happens in taper groups. If you leave, you disappear and unless you specifically seek them out, you will probably never hear from any of them again.

YOU SAID:
He diligently taught what he believed to be the truth of the word of God for over 50 years, and all he asked in return was your attention. That is NOT a cult!!!

REPLY:
He taught his study of the Word of God and what was said was in his mind BIBLE DOCTRINE. Listeners were not studying the Word directly nor were they encouraged to do so. In fact we were taught that we COULD NOT GET TRUTH FROM THE ENGLISH AT ALL, and that we HAD TO BE "UNDER" a teacher such as Thieme to get spiritual food and grow. We do need teachers in our lives, but none of them ever takes the place of the Spirit of God and the Living Word! Thieme said WE DEPENDED ON HIM whether we liked it or not. He consistently hammered this belief into our minds and this never changed. Anywhere Thieme's doctrine is propagated will follow this same belief and it is unbiblical and wrong.

YOU SAID:
This is not a place to bash Christian ministries because of doctrinal differences of opinion. This is a place to expose cults for what they are.
Your "clone" church may or may not have been a cult. I wasn't there, so I don't know. But I was at Berachah, and it was never a cult.

REPLY:
Show me where I have 'bashed' a ministry.

If this were simply a matter of a difference of opinion, that would not call for the level of concern and response I and others have given here and elsewhere. It is a matter of comparing what Scripture says with what a man has said. When there is a major disconnect with serious consequences in people's lives, ONE MUST SPEAK OUT. To be silent is to be complicit in error. It hurts people! It leads people astray to fail to warn them. There are other ministries I don't recommend because of errors I consider to be serious. I judge by what is being taught in public and compare that to what Scripture says. But my lengthy personal experience with Thieme's teachings make me responsible to speak out about error. This is not bashing. Thieme always felt perfectly free to asassinate others by calling them stupid, lazy and arrogant. THAT IS BASHING. And his audience always agreed, either silently or by laughing. I was among them for a long long time. And it took me years of consideration to be able to see the wrong in that.

I don't think ANYONE on this forum has ever called Berachah a cult on the level of Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormons. But it is most definitely a HIGH DEMAND false teaching system. The extent of false doctrine is not at all immediately apparent to an outsider and everyone is begun by listening to the long ago BASICS series, which are mostly very orthodox. But as you continue in the system, Thieme adds more and more of his own special "doctrinal breakthoughs" which gradually take over the mind of the listener and form the framework for all thought within the teaching. Threats of divine discipline for quitting or leaving the teaching which is proclaimed to be BIBLE DOCTRINE make it frightening and hard to leave altogether. Fear dictates that we MUST GET THAT DAILY TAPE IN or God will bring suffering or even death into our lives as a consequence. That is CULTIC, it is error, and it is wrong. It is abusive and all cults use this same kind of fear mongering to control their followers.

An even more basic error which is very widespread these days and not limited to Thieme by any means, is the substitution of the Word of God for THE GOD OF THE WORD. It is the error of the Pharisees of old, and the apostle Paul says he counted it all as dung so that he could gain Christ.

Certainly Thieme taught what he sincerely believed was true. But in many things he became sincerely wrong.

This is what needs exposing.

Sistersoap

If a man is truly a leader in the church appointed by God, and he is a good shepherd. Then yes, imitation is a good thing. Paul told the Corinthians "be ye imitators of me."

And I used the word "clone" because you used it, and I wanted you to be clear who I was talking about. But the "clone" churches I listen to via the web, are not clones at all. They use some of the same terminology as the colonel, but I can tell by listening that their church is actually a family as it should be. I also really enjoy the teaching much more than the colonel's teaching. They haven't just taken the colonel's words and put their twist on them. These men are highly educated, and they study the bible directly, not just by listening to Thieme tapes.

I don't know why you didn't ever feel motivated to question what the colonel taught you. I hear that a lot on this forum. I can't understand that, because I have always felt motivated to question everything he said. And I really feel that he encouraged that. Keep in mind I am only 29 and started going to Berachah when I was about 6 years old. So maybe he had changed the way he taught by the time I heard him. But I have always felt encouraged to read my bible. I do believe pastors are men gifted by God at "rightly dividing the word of truth." In a similar way, just because you may not have the gift of prayer doesn't mean you can't pray effectively. Just because you don't have the gift of faith, doesn't mean you don't have any faith.

I am probably biased, because utilizing the faith rest drill, and all the other problem solving devices has seriously impacted my life for the good. And most of what I have learned at Berachah has had a very positive influence on my spiritual life. I have always felt like I had a very personal relationship with God, and that if at any point I had left Berachah, I would've taken that relationship with me, because it was mine, not the colonel's.

With so much good fruit that I've seen in my life as a result of his ministry, I have a hard time getting on board with calling it "a HIGH DEMAND false teaching system."

And I don't agree with you that it has had this negative affect on most of it's followers. I truly believe most people are like me in how Berachah affected their lives. This is just based on my personal observation, and I can't prove it.

I sympathize with you. I really do.
And I have trouble understanding how such polar opposite experiences could've come from the same teaching. The only conclusion I can say is that he was not your pastor. In other words God did not want you in the Colonel's flock, and therefore his teaching was not suited for your edification. It was suited for mine, and I grew as a result.

radaph:

You said, "Paul told the Corinthians 'be ye imitators of me.'"

However, the interpretation you offer is incorrect.

The quote has nothing to do with imitating Paul himself.

It refers to the imitation of Christ.

That is, that Paul is imitating Christ and others should imitate that, i.e. the desire and effort to imitate Christ.

This scripture has often been used as you have used it, to rationalize imitating a leader by members of cults that abuse the bible.

Many of these groups grossly abuse the term and practice of "discipleship."

Here are some links that explore such abuses, which contain excerpts from a book titled "The Discipling Dilemma"

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also see [www.culteducation.com]

Here is a psychological study that demonstrates the damage done by such teachings.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Here is bibliography for additional reading.

See [www.culteducation.com]

If Thieme taught anything like this he was wrong and likely quite destructive.

Quote
rrmoderator
radaph:

You said, "Paul told the Corinthians 'be ye imitators of me.'"

However, the interpretation you offer is incorrect.

The quote has nothing to do with imitating Paul himself.

It refers to the imitation of Christ.

That is, that Paul is imitating Christ and others should imitate that, i.e. the desire and effort to imitate Christ.

This scripture has often been used as you have used it, to rationalize imitating a leader by members of cults that abuse the bible.

Many of these groups grossly abuse the term and practice of "discipleship."

Here are some links that explore such abuses, which contain excerpts from a book titled "The Discipling Dilemma"

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also see [www.culteducation.com]

Here is a psychological study that demonstrates the damage done by such teachings.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Here is bibliography for additional reading.

See [www.culteducation.com]

If Thieme taught anything like this he was wrong and likely quite destructive.

Again, you take a statement and take it to the extreme.

I am not saying dress like the colonel, wear the same brand of underwear, eat at the same restraunts, use the same words, teach in exactly the same way he teaches, and etc.

The things that we are to immitate are the attribute that resemble Christ.
I knew what Paul meant, when he said "be immitators of me." And I meant the same thing.

The colonel hasn't ever condoned pastors cloning his church. I know a church not a 10 minute drive from where I am sitting right now, in which the pastor is a clone of the colonel. I have visited this church years ago, looking for something closer to home than berachah. I wasn't impressed.

Sure the colonel has ordained many pastors throughout the years, but so have almost every other pastor in the world. And sure they are going to be influenced a great deal by the Colonel's way of teaching, because that is most likely what they learned from. So maybe they use a lot of the same words he uses. So what? That doesn't make them a clone. This is a normal thing. Hopefully those pastors would take what the colonel taught, and pick up where he left off, and improve on the message being taught to their congregation. Take the good stuff he taught, and polish it up and reteach it again. Take the bad stuff, and kick it to the curb. That is completely natural and it's a very good thing.

My father was a good man. He did a lot of things very well for me and my sister. But some things he didn't do so well. Well, when I am a father (which won't be very far from now), I will try to use some of the good stuff I learned from my father. No sense in re-inventing the wheel, when the wheel works really well. And I will certainly pay attention to his mistakes as well, in an effort to not repeat those mistakes. And hopefull I will be a better father to my son than he was to me. And on and on it goes down through the generations. And I have noticed myself using some of the same manorisms and expressions my dad uses. But you could harldly call me his clone. Sure I seek to immitate the good stuff about him. I admire the guy. What's wrong with that?

Now I could get carried away with this idea, and take it further than it needs to go. I could try to be exactly like my father. I could assume that he is always right, and never question anything he tells me. I could become so dependent on him that I don't even know who I am apart from him. And that is unhealthy, and dangerous, and just wrong. And some people have done that with the Colonel. But most people have done the former, which there is nothing wrong with.

There are basketball players who have made commercials which stated "I am not an idol!"
My point is you can be idolized by some people, even if you don't want to be. That is not your fault. You are just doing what you like to do, and doing it very well. You didn't ask to be idolized. In fact, you ask people not to do that. But they do it anyway. They are the ones with the problem, not you. Should you not be successful, or confident, or have authority, just in case someone might idolize you? Of course not.

radaph:

There you go again.

Imitation of Christ, according to the New Testament is not based upon human interpretation of supposedly "Christ like" qualities, which people determine, but rather what the New Testament describes specifically as Christ qualities.

Read the material linked to understand this in more detail.

You do make Thieme seem similar to a cult leader with a "clone" following through your posts here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2008 11:15PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
rrmoderator
radaph:

There you go again.

Imitation of Christ, according to the New Testament is not based upon human interpretation of supposedly "Christ like" qualities, which people determine, but rather what the New Testament describes specifically as Christ qualities.

Read the material linked to understand this in more detail.

You do make Thieme seem similar to a cult leader with a "clone" following through your posts here.

You are not objective. As such, I am finished discussing this with you.
You haven't heard what I've said. So what's the point in saying more? There is none.

I may post again, but not in response to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2008 11:16PM by rrmoderator.

TO RADAPH:

YOU SAID:
If a man is truly a leader in the church appointed by God, and he is a good shepherd. Then yes, imitation is a good thing. Paul told the Corinthians "be ye imitators of me."

REPLY:
What verse is that? Was it
2Th 3:7
2Th 3:9

or perhaps this?
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

What I call THE REAL BIBLE says BE FOLLOWERS OF ME EVEN AS I OF CHRIST.
It does not say IMITATORS.

1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

HERE IS THE MAIN POINT IN FOLLOWING PAUL: There is a limit!
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

It does not say follow a man without qualification. AS HE FOLLOWS CHRIST, FOLLOW HIM. It does not say IMITATE. IT SAYS FOLLOW PAUL AS PAUL FOLLOWS CHRIST.

The final authority is Christ, not Paul, though Paul was gifted uniquely as the final apostle and the apostle to the Gentiles. Since then there have been NO APOSTLES. No man should want others to follow him, but for them to follow Christ.

YOU SAID:
And I used the word "clone" because you used it, and I wanted you to be clear who I was talking about. But the "clone" churches I listen to via the web, are not clones at all. They use some of the same terminology as the colonel, but I can tell by listening that their church is actually a family as it should be. I also really enjoy the teaching much more than the colonel's teaching. They haven't just taken the colonel's words and put their twist on them. These men are highly educated, and they study the bible directly, not just by listening to Thieme tapes.

REPLY:
Their high education level may be admirable, but if they are still following Thieme they are wrong in that. It sounds to me like they are "doctrinal" churches that sprung up from Thieme's ministry. If they have web sites, as you indicate that they do, search for GLOSSARIES of terminology. I have found it instructive in evaluating the relative influence of Thieme's teachings in other ministries to examine their basic beliefs and how they define their terms. If they use any of Thieme's terms, even if they add their own embellishments, they are standing upon a shaky foundation. The model for both preachers and "laity" is the apostle Paul, not R.B.Thieme, Jr. Paul's terminology is biblical and as it is included in the Canon of Scripture, even Peter called it Scripture, we should stick to BIBLE TERMINOLOGY for Bible concepts and teaching. Using nonbiblical terminology is a sign that biblical authority is not being followed. This is my problem with ministries that refer to Thieme in any way.

Thieme's "high" education did not keep him from error. In fact, his pride in his intellect and education was a major stumbling block which he did not recognize.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Ghost did not teach rebound, Right man-Right woman, two banks to the soul with five apertures on each side, the "Grace" Apparatus for Perception, reversionism, triple compound divine discipline, winner/loser believers, immature believers are PSYCHOTIC, only "mature" believers can glorify God AND ON AND ON AND ON.

Including ANY of this man's "special vocabulary" or his "doctrinal breakthroughs" as part of a ministry is a sign to me that he is under the influence of Bob Thieme's teaching and IS NOT to be totally trusted, no matter how "highly educated he may be. Education is not a prerequisite for faithful teaching of the Word of God. Jesus took and used twelve uneducated men and made disciples of them, then the one who WAS HIGHLY EDUCATED, was God's greatest enemy because of his great education, and this was Paul the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul threw his degrees in the dumpster that he might gain Christ. A man's learning is not the first thing I look for in a pastor. It is more likely to be a hindrance to the truth. Thieme's system is founded on the dependence of the congregation upon their "pastor-teacher." It sounds to me like you are enjoying Thieme influenced pastors online and thinking that you are getting a better quality of doctrine because of it. You seem to think they took the good from Thieme's system and have replaced "bad" with their own "good." I say the entire system is rotten!

What I want is GOD'S WORDS, and I have them in His Book. Thieme's system is an unnecessary superstructure which poisons the mind with false premises---that only "experts" can train the congregation authoritatively. NOT SO. Thieme admired his education and he went far afield with it. It did not serve his congregation well. You are not dependent upon any man to give you the Word of God. If you have His Spirit, you can pick up the Bible and learn for yourself. If the words are not to be understood plainly and simply as written, then you have the wrong Bible, or the wrong spirit in you. My personal choice is the KJB. I did my own research into lots of history and facts which THIEME NEVER MENTIONED because his education did not reveal any of them to him. His education WAS MISSING A LOT. These days education is often missing a lot! A janitor who loves and knows his Bible may be a better instructor in the things of God than a seminary professor well versed in modern scholarship, which is the idol of choice these days.

YOU SAID:
I don't know why you didn't ever feel motivated to question what the colonel taught you. I hear that a lot on this forum. I can't understand that, because I have always felt motivated to question everything he said.

REPLY:
OK I will bite. What exactly did you question while under his teaching and what conclusions did you reach? What did you decide he was wrong about? I know you said you felt the lack of "family" was wrong and you left because of that. What else?

YOU SAID:
And I really feel that he encouraged that. Keep in mind I am only 29 and started going to Berachah when I was about 6 years old. So maybe he had changed the way he taught by the time I heard him. But I have always felt encouraged to read my bible.

REPLY:
So you have never really gone to a totally non Thieme influenced church? or have you found one that is not Thieme influenced?
We must have heard different messages because Thieme often told us not to read the Bible for ourselves that we could not learn and mature by doing that, we WERE DEPENDENT ON HIM. You can find this message online at:

{{{ 1976 AUDIO "MY ENCOUNTER WITH THE TEACHINGS OF R.B.THIEME JR."

{{{ The following is a link for a recording of a speech given AT SANTA ROSA BIBLE COLLEGE which includes audio clips from Thieme's tapes illustrating the speaker's main points. It is a good general introduction to Thieme and the effects he has on people and churches. Lasts approximately thirty minutes or a little longer.



This link
{ [www.4shared.com] } takes you to a page on the 4shared files web site. You will find a list of files available to listen to or download.

The SECOND AUDIO FILE on the list is Pastor Graves' presentation. He includes EXCERPTS from Thieme's tapes. Especially noteworthy is the place where Thieme actually says.
"Whether you like it or not, YOU are dependent on ME!"
Priceless.

This link
{ [www.4shared.com] } should take you DIRECTLY to the link for Graves. Click on the PLAY TAB to access the recording. Well worth listening to more than once especially if you have never heard of Thieme, or never heard him teach at all. ~~ }}}

Let me know if you have problems accessing the material. You can hear for yourself Thieme calling other pastors lazy and stupid compared to himself. You can also hear him say that you can't read the Bible and grow. This attitude permeated all he said throughout his whole career.

YOU SAID:
I do believe pastors are men gifted by God at "rightly dividing the word of truth." In a similar way, just because you may not have the gift of prayer doesn't mean you can't pray effectively. Just because you don't have the gift of faith, doesn't mean you don't have any faith.

REPLY:
I am sorry, I missed the point here.

YOU SAID:
I am probably biased, because utilizing the faith rest drill, and all the other problem solving devices has seriously impacted my life for the good.

REPLY:
Can you think and talk without using Thiemology terms?

You see, the problem with the "problem solving devices" is that this is entirely Thieme's construct and a non biblical methodology! You are not supposed to be solving your own problems by applying this or that doctrine or technique. It does not impact you for good, it is your flesh controlling you. It is not the CHRISTIAN LIFE, for only Christ can live that life. If you are doing these things, using these techniques, then you are not allowing Christ to do what He came to be and to do which is to LIVE IN AND THROUGH you as your only life. Until you see that you CAN'T LIVE your own life as a Christian, you have missed the entire purpose of what Christ came to give you. This is how Thieme can use the word GRACE so much and yet establish a thoroughly LEGALISTIC system!

The Thiemeology has rooted in you deeply. It goes with you where ever you go and you are still thinking in Thieme's terms and definitions, not the "words the Holy Ghost teacheth." They are not the same thing. And the methodology is not the same. Jesus did not come to give you techniques and problem solving devices. He came to DIE FOR YOU so you are now DEAD, and CHRIST is your life. Forget Bob Thieme's terms, devices and definitions. They are not inspired. They are not "Bible doctrine" they are Thieme's doctrine, and he is only a man. He is not the Apostle Paul. There are no more apostles on Paul's level. There is no divine Scripture being written now. The Word of God does not need to be CORRECTED, as Thieme constantly does, (and I would wager the teachers you are listening to online do it too), it needs to be read and believed.

You have placed your faith in doctrines and devices and not in Christ himself and His words alone. Thieme stood in between us and the Word and we mistook the one for the other because we believed what he taught us.

YOU SAID:
And most of what I have learned at Berachah has had a very positive influence on my spiritual life. I have always felt like I had a very personal relationship with God, and that if at any point I had left Berachah, I would've taken that relationship with me, because it was mine, not the colonel's.

With so much good fruit that I've seen in my life as a result of his ministry, I have a hard time getting on board with calling it "a HIGH DEMAND false teaching system."

REPLY:
That is because you still don't believe any of it was false.

YOU SAID:
And I don't agree with you that it has had this negative affect on most of it's followers. I truly believe most people are like me in how Berachah affected their lives. This is just based on my personal observation, and I can't prove it.

REPLY:
I don't believe anyone here has ever said MOST people were negatively affected. But a significant number have been, and it was the teaching that was at fault. But you have not been able to see that. You like many others say Thieme was not right about everything, but you never ever get specific and name something he was wrong about. On the other hand, on this and other places, many of Thieme's errors have been amply exposed, yet the reply from Thieme supporters is always something like this:

"You misunderstood the teaching."
"He must not have been your 'right pastor-teacher'!"

Nobody that I know of here who likes Thieme's teaching has ever admitted that ANY of these criticisms are valid. Nobody can be that perfect. Yet Thieme seems to be in the minds of those still under his influence. I believed just as you did, that the problem solving devices and all the other stuff that was not actually in the bible was BIBLE DOCTRINE and it was to that I looked and that which I obeyed. But our faith is not to be in doctrine or in devices but in a PERSON. Otherwise, the Pharisees were right to crucify Jesus. I believed everything Thieme said in his classes. Just once I would like to have someone actually say what Thieme was wrong about and what exactly was wrong, and why according to the Bible it is wrong.

Most of Thieme's doctrine is not found in the Bible itself. There are no problem solving devices in the epistles of Paul or Peter or John. There is a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His Words. These are to be believed, and the first and most important obedience is THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, faith in a PERSON. God is a person, Jesus is a PERSON. A PERSON saved you, not a doctrine. If you can't find it in the Bible, don't mistake it for the Bible. GAP is not there. Neither is right man, right woman nor is the privacy of the priesthood as Thieme taught it. Neither is the Thieme teaching on the blood of Christ, or the non humanity of the baby in the womb. There is in fact so much in Thieme's teaching that is not in the Bible that when you step back and take a look at the whole, it takes your breath away. It falls apart like a house of cards, as it should. but you have evidently not had that experience of stepping back.

When you get so tired of applying the problem solving devices for yourself, and can't do it any more, come back and talk. There is someone who does work, and His Work is FINISHED.

YOU SAID:
I sympathize with you. I really do.
And I have trouble understanding how such polar opposite experiences could've come from the same teaching. The only conclusion I can say is that he was not your pastor. In other words God did not want you in the Colonel's flock, and therefore his teaching was not suited for your edification. It was suited for mine, and I grew as a result.

REPLY:
Now I had not read to the end of this post when I wrote what I did above. See? You are thinking in terms of Thieme, not Bible. FOR TWENTY YEARS you stayed and was he not your right pastor for that time? I was under it for THIRTY YEARS. How's it working for you now? Is he still your right pastor? Were your twenty years and all he taught you during that time lost? No you carried it with you and found a more congenial congregation but your mind is still thinking Thieme speak.

I would once have expressed myself just like you have here. Only when I was "under" Thieme's teaching, there were no computers to search for others who did not agree with him. I had no way to connnect with anyone who had left. I believed anyone who did leave was under divine discipline and I wanted nothing to do with them lest I be contaminated by their negative volition to Bible doctrine. I would not have understood anyone criticizing the teaching either.

Don't you see the problem with all that?

You can't sympathize with me because you have no idea what it is like to be free in Christ! You are still captive to a man's teachings. He uses God's words in his teaching and it is easy to get the impression if you have been listening a long time that everything being taught is to be treated as if it were the Word of God.

Until you can come up with some specific things you heard him say that you believe is wrong and can demonstrate from Scripture how it is wrong, then you are not able to "sympathize" with me or others like me.

Just remember, there is life outside of and apart from the teachings of R.B.Thieme Jr or one following in his footsteps. it is a glorious freedom, and it fully justifies my confidence in Jesus Christ, and His Father in Heaven whose Words alone are absolutely trustworthy.

Sistersoap

Quote
sistersoap
You have placed your faith in doctrines and devices and not in Christ himself and His words alone. Thieme stood in between us and the Word and we mistook the one for the other because we believed what he taught us.

Please speak for yourself here. I know what my faith is in, and it's not in Bob Thieme.

I just disagree with practically everything you said here, so I don't even know where to begin.

Just because the bible doesn't include the words "problem solving devices" doesn't mean that it doesn't teach about them. I could call them whatever I want to call them, as long as I am using them. The scripture does say that knowledge and faith will help you overcome trials. That is all that problem solving devices are. Let's take the famous Faith-Rest Drill for example.

What is the Faith-Rest Drill according to Thieme?
It's a 3 step process, if I recall correctly.

It starts when you have a problem.
Step 1: Claim a promise or doctrine.
Step 2: Use that promise or doctrine in a rationale.
Step 3: Reach doctrinal conclusions.

Let's look at whether these steps are legitimate and biblical.

2Pe 1:4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

This verse tells me that it is certainly correct to rely on promises of God, not only correct, but very necessary even to become partakers of the divine nature that God has made you in.

Rom 4:21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

This verse and it's surrounding context tells me that we most certainly should take confidence in the promises of God.
Abraham had so much confidence, that he was even able to willing offer his son to God. He knew that somehow God would save Isaac because He was promised a great nation from Isaac. So he obeyed.



Taking what God has said or promised, and relying on it in times of crisis is very much a biblical concept. If Col Thieme wants to organized those concepts and make a little "drill" out of them so that they are easier for us to remember when crisis comes and we are not thinking as clearly as normal, what is so horribly wrong with that?

Again, you can call it "Faith-Rest," you can call it "Standing on the Promises" as the old hymn goes, you can call it whatever you like. It is the truth straight from the pages of the bible. You get so hung up about the words and terminology you miss the point. And the point is true.

You ask can I think without using Thieme's terminology. I say, absolutely without a shadow of a doubt, I can. But why would I want to? What would be the point? I don't have hatred for him as you do. If his terminology makes it easier for me to categorize and recall biblical truthes in my mind, then I am going to use them.

When you were talking about "imitating" Paul, you criticized my translation of the bible, saying that apparently yours is the "True" version. I have about 10 different translations on my e-sword program and with the exception of the KJV, all the other say "imitators," not "followers." But for the sake of argument, let's say your translation is the correct one. What difference does it make? If we are to follow Paul as he follows Christ. How does Paul follow Christ? Doesn't he try to immitate Christ? Isn't that a righteous persuit? Then if that is how he follows Christ, then that is how we should follow Paul.

That being said, it is really hard for me to understand how anyone who has studied the word for very long can possibly only study one translation, regardless of which translation it may be. I like the KJV, and often quote it. But it's not the best. There is no "best" translation out there. They all get some things right and some things wrong. Best to study them all.

Quote
sistersoap
I would once have expressed myself just like you have here. Only when I was "under" Thieme's teaching, there were no computers to search for others who did not agree with him. I had no way to connnect with anyone who had left. I believed anyone who did leave was under divine discipline and I wanted nothing to do with them lest I be contaminated by their negative volition to Bible doctrine. I would not have understood anyone criticizing the teaching either.

Don't you see the problem with all that?

Yeah, the problem is glaring me in the face. Your attitude.

You have too much hate for the Col in you to be objective about any of this.
I don't hate the man, and I don't love the man. I barely know him. I have respect for him, but that could be easily lost if someone presented any real gripe about his ministry here other than just personal attitude problems that they blame the Col for. I'm sorry, but I just cant let you condemn him because of your laziness. If you didn't question him, it was your fault. I question everyone. I don't accept anything from anyone at face value. That is an attitude I learned from Berachah and it has served me very well, even in evaluating his ministry.


Bash, bash away. You bring more fame to him, by your bashing. If you really don't want people falling into his supposed trap, you'd be better off not saying a word about him to anyone. Because most people that read about him on here, are probably going to give him a listen. And they may be ensnared by his silk-tongue. lol
I think you need to evaluate your attitude and see if it lines up with what Jesus teaches about unconditional love. Whether you hate him or not, God loves the Col just as much as he loves you. Hate hurts no one but yourself.

I'm done here.

radaph:

You said, "You are not objective. As such, I am finished discussing this with you. You haven't heard what I've said. So what's the point in saying more? There is none."

At this point you begin to sound like a child unwilling to participate in a group activity unless he or she has their way.

Please understand that just because people don't agree with you, this doesn't mean they are either not "objective" and/or "haven't heard."

It simply means that others think you are wrong and don't agree with you.

It seems like you may not be used to a group discussion with varying opinions and viewpoints.

Perhaps within the Thieme group there was a kind of cloned mindset, which precluded reaching conclusions from more than one perspective?