Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 20, 2008 09:29PM
To the Forum:
March 31, 2008 07:00AMsistersoap
So now. Tommy T. I suspect you are not going to answer these objections except to deny them. I dare you to listen to the tape excerpt of Thieme saying LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! and justify that from Scripture.
This link
[www.4shared.com] takes you to a page on the 4shared files web site. You will find a list of files available to listen to or download.
The SECOND AUDIO FILE on the list is Pastor Graves' presentation. He includes EXCERPTS from Thieme's tapes. Especially noteworthy is the place where Thieme actually says.
"Whether you like it or not, YOU are dependent on ME!"
Priceless.
In agreement with what Sistersoap has stated, nowhere in Chafer's Systematic Theology did I see that spiritual growth was a "dependency" on a pastor or teacher, and nowhere did I see a human teacher given an "equal status of dependency" as that of the Holy Spirit. It was a complete and total dependency on the Holy Spirit alone.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology Vol 6, pg 233
Since this is true, it is evident that these three represent all that is required. Of these three conditions, two are negative—what the believer should not do, and one is positive—that which the believer should do. The negative directions are: “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God” (Eph. 4:30) and “Quench not the Spirit” (1 Thess. 5:19), while the one positive condition is: “Walk in the Spirit” (Gal. 5:16). These are now to be considered separately and in the same order.
I. “GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD” begins on pg 234
II. “QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT” begins on pg 250
Here are a few examples from "Walk in the Spirit"
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology Vol 6, pg 261
III. “WALK IN THE SPIRIT”
Advancing at this point to a contemplation of the third condition upon which the Spirit’s filling may be experienced, it should be restated that this condition is positive in character while the two already considered are negative—respecting that which should not be allowed. The positive requirement concerns that which is to be wrought in the life by the Holy Spirit and is far-reaching in what it includes. The Authorized Version translation of a determining verse like Galatians 5:16 is misleading. By this kind of rendering the text seems to impose responsibility upon the believer to maintain a walk in the Holy Spirit, whereas the more accurate rendering of the text assigns such achieving of the walk to the Holy Spirit and enjoins upon the Christian the attitude of dependence upon the Spirit. It is obvious that the Christian has no power within himself, in spite of the new nature, whereby to enter, promote, or maintain a walk in the Spirit. It is because of this native incapacity that the Spirit is given to indwell him. The whole situation is reversed and impossible assumptions are suggested when the believer is urged to walk by his own ability rather than by the Holy Spirit. The responsibility resting upon the Christian is not that of attempting the walk; it is rather the obligation to maintain an attitude of confidence and expectation toward the Holy Spirit, which dependence will make the Spirit’s promotion of the walk a blessed reality. One interpretation of this passage in Galatians implies that the believer is to lead or direct the Holy Spirit, while the more defensible viewpoint makes out that the believer is to be led in a path of God’s own choosing and to be empowered by the Spirit unto every good work. The immediate promise to the believer is that when walking by means of the Spirit the lust of the flesh will not be fulfilled....
... To “walk in the Spirit” means, then, to depend upon the Spirit. The use as a literary figure of the act of walking to represent the continued responsibility of living daily to the glory of God is apt.
...All of this suggests personal intimacy with the Holy Spirit. His presence is to be an actuality in experience, and the practice of depending consciously and habitually upon His enabling power must be maintained. This specific manner of life is wholly unlike the natural ways and practices of men. The walk by means of the Spirit is an achievement which calls for unceasing attention and patient advancement, looking to its execution. All who are born into this world must learn to walk as a proper function of the physical body; it should not be deemed strange if it is required of those born of the Spirit that they too learn by experience and practice how to walk by means of the same Spirit. It is to be expected that a child will creep before it walks and that it will experience many failures and falls before being able to walk freely. It is equally reasonable to expect a certain amount of effort and failure to occur along the path before the walk by the Spirit is perfected. Doubtless it is only an unexperienced theoretical consideration in the minds of the great majority of believers that the Holy Spirit has taken up His abode in their hearts. To such it becomes a day of marvelous discovery when perhaps in feeble faith they rest their weight upon Him and discover by living experience that He is there and ready and willing to accomplish that which is committed to Him. It need not be demonstrated further that if the power of the Spirit is to be actualized one must pass beyond the range of theories, and into the vital tests of a commitment of even the first step in a walk by means of the Spirit to His gracious person to accomplish. No intelligent step can be taken until there is some distinction borne in mind about the difference in method and practice between walking by dependence upon self or the flesh and walking by dependence upon the Spirit. Here, again, rules are of little aid. The walk by the Spirit must be the outworking of personal experience—not the attempted imitation of others, but the result of one’s own trial of faith...
...The impression has been created that the natural functions of human life are to be set aside and the mind and will are rendered dormant, to the end that the Spirit may exercise His own mind and will. Such a notion is foreign to the plan of God as that purpose is revealed in the New Testament. As He did with Gideon, the Spirit clothes Himself with the believer’s body and faculties and, without manifestations of Himself, works in and through those faculties. Though thus hidden from observation, it is nonetheless the uncomplicated work of the Spirit. With the tremendous issue of the believer’s life in view, it is evident that definiteness in the matter of the believer’s attitude of trust is of major importance.
Truthtesty
March 31, 2008 07:00AMsistersoap
So now. Tommy T. I suspect you are not going to answer these objections except to deny them. I dare you to listen to the tape excerpt of Thieme saying LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! and justify that from Scripture.
This link
[www.4shared.com] takes you to a page on the 4shared files web site. You will find a list of files available to listen to or download.
The SECOND AUDIO FILE on the list is Pastor Graves' presentation. He includes EXCERPTS from Thieme's tapes. Especially noteworthy is the place where Thieme actually says.
"Whether you like it or not, YOU are dependent on ME!"
Priceless.
In agreement with what Sistersoap has stated, nowhere in Chafer's Systematic Theology did I see that spiritual growth was a "dependency" on a pastor or teacher, and nowhere did I see a human teacher given an "equal status of dependency" as that of the Holy Spirit. It was a complete and total dependency on the Holy Spirit alone.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology Vol 6, pg 233
Since this is true, it is evident that these three represent all that is required. Of these three conditions, two are negative—what the believer should not do, and one is positive—that which the believer should do. The negative directions are: “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God” (Eph. 4:30) and “Quench not the Spirit” (1 Thess. 5:19), while the one positive condition is: “Walk in the Spirit” (Gal. 5:16). These are now to be considered separately and in the same order.
I. “GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD” begins on pg 234
II. “QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT” begins on pg 250
Here are a few examples from "Walk in the Spirit"
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology Vol 6, pg 261
III. “WALK IN THE SPIRIT”
Advancing at this point to a contemplation of the third condition upon which the Spirit’s filling may be experienced, it should be restated that this condition is positive in character while the two already considered are negative—respecting that which should not be allowed. The positive requirement concerns that which is to be wrought in the life by the Holy Spirit and is far-reaching in what it includes. The Authorized Version translation of a determining verse like Galatians 5:16 is misleading. By this kind of rendering the text seems to impose responsibility upon the believer to maintain a walk in the Holy Spirit, whereas the more accurate rendering of the text assigns such achieving of the walk to the Holy Spirit and enjoins upon the Christian the attitude of dependence upon the Spirit. It is obvious that the Christian has no power within himself, in spite of the new nature, whereby to enter, promote, or maintain a walk in the Spirit. It is because of this native incapacity that the Spirit is given to indwell him. The whole situation is reversed and impossible assumptions are suggested when the believer is urged to walk by his own ability rather than by the Holy Spirit. The responsibility resting upon the Christian is not that of attempting the walk; it is rather the obligation to maintain an attitude of confidence and expectation toward the Holy Spirit, which dependence will make the Spirit’s promotion of the walk a blessed reality. One interpretation of this passage in Galatians implies that the believer is to lead or direct the Holy Spirit, while the more defensible viewpoint makes out that the believer is to be led in a path of God’s own choosing and to be empowered by the Spirit unto every good work. The immediate promise to the believer is that when walking by means of the Spirit the lust of the flesh will not be fulfilled....
... To “walk in the Spirit” means, then, to depend upon the Spirit. The use as a literary figure of the act of walking to represent the continued responsibility of living daily to the glory of God is apt.
...All of this suggests personal intimacy with the Holy Spirit. His presence is to be an actuality in experience, and the practice of depending consciously and habitually upon His enabling power must be maintained. This specific manner of life is wholly unlike the natural ways and practices of men. The walk by means of the Spirit is an achievement which calls for unceasing attention and patient advancement, looking to its execution. All who are born into this world must learn to walk as a proper function of the physical body; it should not be deemed strange if it is required of those born of the Spirit that they too learn by experience and practice how to walk by means of the same Spirit. It is to be expected that a child will creep before it walks and that it will experience many failures and falls before being able to walk freely. It is equally reasonable to expect a certain amount of effort and failure to occur along the path before the walk by the Spirit is perfected. Doubtless it is only an unexperienced theoretical consideration in the minds of the great majority of believers that the Holy Spirit has taken up His abode in their hearts. To such it becomes a day of marvelous discovery when perhaps in feeble faith they rest their weight upon Him and discover by living experience that He is there and ready and willing to accomplish that which is committed to Him. It need not be demonstrated further that if the power of the Spirit is to be actualized one must pass beyond the range of theories, and into the vital tests of a commitment of even the first step in a walk by means of the Spirit to His gracious person to accomplish. No intelligent step can be taken until there is some distinction borne in mind about the difference in method and practice between walking by dependence upon self or the flesh and walking by dependence upon the Spirit. Here, again, rules are of little aid. The walk by the Spirit must be the outworking of personal experience—not the attempted imitation of others, but the result of one’s own trial of faith...
...The impression has been created that the natural functions of human life are to be set aside and the mind and will are rendered dormant, to the end that the Spirit may exercise His own mind and will. Such a notion is foreign to the plan of God as that purpose is revealed in the New Testament. As He did with Gideon, the Spirit clothes Himself with the believer’s body and faculties and, without manifestations of Himself, works in and through those faculties. Though thus hidden from observation, it is nonetheless the uncomplicated work of the Spirit. With the tremendous issue of the believer’s life in view, it is evident that definiteness in the matter of the believer’s attitude of trust is of major importance.
Truthtesty
1961 Basics series: audio
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: April 21, 2008 01:25PM
Just found this...
The complete? 1961 Basics series audio lessons, for downloading/streaming audio...
[www.imeem.com]
The complete? 1961 Basics series audio lessons, for downloading/streaming audio...
[www.imeem.com]
Re: 1961 Basics series: audio
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 22, 2008 04:16AM
Hi Orange!
Thanks for the link. Now if I can stomach listening.....Maybe a bit at a time.
Sis
Thanks for the link. Now if I can stomach listening.....Maybe a bit at a time.
Sis
Re: 1961 Basics series: audio
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: April 22, 2008 06:34AM
I provided this link, because apparently the 1961 Basics series represented a turning point in Thieme Jr.'s teaching. Those of you who were there, would know about this more than I.
This series may have been generally sound?
Below are some comments from someone who was there at the time:-
“Bob had a decided vocabulary switch around late in 1962 that took some concentrated listening to understand what he was trying to communicate....
late August of 1962........ just when he was starting to introduce additional vocabulary in an attempt to convey what he was teaching from the Word...
Bob Thieme was always trying to find ways of communicating Biblical truth so that people listening to him would understand the Scriptures better...
He decided that using anatomical terms would accomplish this for him...
My Doctrinal Basics Series is prior to 1962.
The Basics started with Rebound (Bob’s term for 1 John 1:9), followed by The Faith-Rest Life (which Hal Lindsey said was probably Bob’s greatest contribution to Christian life teaching), the Spirit-Filled Life (emphasizing, as did Bill Bright at Campus Crusade, believers are filled with/controlled by the Spirit by faith), Divine Guidance (from Acts 11), Prayer (teaching prayer involves not only the actual petition, but the desire behind it, resulting in 4 categories ending with a yes on the petition and yes on the desire and that every prayer in Scripture falls into one of these four categories), Suffering (he had at least 14 reasons why believers suffer), Witnessing and finishing with Canonicity (how we got the Bible)...”
This series may have been generally sound?
Below are some comments from someone who was there at the time:-
“Bob had a decided vocabulary switch around late in 1962 that took some concentrated listening to understand what he was trying to communicate....
late August of 1962........ just when he was starting to introduce additional vocabulary in an attempt to convey what he was teaching from the Word...
Bob Thieme was always trying to find ways of communicating Biblical truth so that people listening to him would understand the Scriptures better...
He decided that using anatomical terms would accomplish this for him...
My Doctrinal Basics Series is prior to 1962.
The Basics started with Rebound (Bob’s term for 1 John 1:9), followed by The Faith-Rest Life (which Hal Lindsey said was probably Bob’s greatest contribution to Christian life teaching), the Spirit-Filled Life (emphasizing, as did Bill Bright at Campus Crusade, believers are filled with/controlled by the Spirit by faith), Divine Guidance (from Acts 11), Prayer (teaching prayer involves not only the actual petition, but the desire behind it, resulting in 4 categories ending with a yes on the petition and yes on the desire and that every prayer in Scripture falls into one of these four categories), Suffering (he had at least 14 reasons why believers suffer), Witnessing and finishing with Canonicity (how we got the Bible)...”
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 22, 2008 10:40AM
To the Forum:
It would be wise to just read Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology, instead of listening to the "1961 Basics" of Thieme. The difference in the time from Chafer writing "Systematic Theology" and Thieme's 1961 basics is only about 10 years. Chafer's "Systematic Theology", does not contain the Thieme errors. But if someone does decide to proceed, you have been forewarned. In addition to the following suggestions by Dr. Wall, I suggest that you read the critiques at the end of each chapter of Dr. Wall's dissertation (on faith-rest, spirituality, spirit-filled life, etc...). [www.texaswalls.org]
Per Dr. Wall's dissertation:
SUGGESTIONS TO STUDENTS OF R. B. THIEME, JR.
This section is dedicated to those who are presently studying under
Thieme or who may be potential students of Thieme's. The suggestions listed
below may not apply to every student; however, they are appropriate suggestions
in the light of the author's personal experience as a Thieme student, observations
of current problems relating to Thieme students, and information gleaned from a
number of interviews.
1. Check out anything new that Thieme teaches, by engaging in a personal
study of the Word of God. This can be done fairly easily through the following
means. First, read the text involved in its context from at least two different good
translations. Second, use a good, exhaustive concordance (such as a Young's
Concordance), and notice how particular words, that are significant to Thieme's
new doctrines, are actually used in the Scriptures. The use of a word is the major
basis for determining its denotative and connotative meanings. The Young's
Analytical Concordance also includes a breakdown by the particular Hebrew or
Greek words employed. Third, check with other sources, such as other Bible
teachers or Bible commentaries; for in "a multitude of counselors" (Prov. 11:14)
is deliverance. Be like the Bereans in the Book of Acts, who did not believe Paul
until they had checked him out in the Scriptures (Acts 17:1 1). Fourth, sift
Thieme's teachings, so that you are able to screen out that which is truly biblical
doctrine and that which is an extension of Thieme's opinions and personality. If
you are unable to do such a sifting process, you would be wise to refrain from
studying under Thieme at all.
2. Employ other sources of teaching, such as other Bible teachers and
books written on Bible exposition and Bible doctrine, to help you develop a
healthy, balanced Christian life.
3. Plan to become a personal student of the Scriptures, dependent upon the
Lord and the Scriptures, and not dependent upon men. As soon as possible, move
beyond the stage of sucking strained meat; learn how to carve and chew the meat
of the Word of God for yourself.
4. If you are engaged in studying Thieme via tapes, commit yourself to a
balanced diet, using a large number of taped studies by men like, Stanley
Toussaint, S. Lewis Johnson, J. Dwight Pentecost, and Francis Schaeffer. If you
find it difficult to establish your doctrinal categories, you might find it helpful to
read Major Bible Themes by Lewis Sperry Chafer (recently revised and edited by
John F. Walvoord).
155
5. As you listen to Thieme, be careful to draw only God's truth from the
message, and avoid emulating Thieme's mannerisms. This word of advice is
applicable, not only to students of Thieme, but to students of any teacher.
6. If you are in an evangelical church where Christ is honored and His
Word is respected, do not feel that it is necessary to leave that church, in order to
study under Thieme in a tape group or tape church. You need the ministry of the
members of the body of Christ one toward another under the authority of church
leadership (elders or pastors).
7. Make certain that any practice of separating from other believers is for
reasons clearly stated in Scripture (gross immorality, rebellion against the
church's elders, or doctrinal heresy). Do not allow a man or his distinctive
teachings to be a basis for separation from friends or family.
8. Do not fall prey to the subtle sin of pride in knowledge.
9. Do not confuse your grasping of truth and the collection of information
(either in your head or in a notebook) with truly being affected by truth and
becoming mature.
10. Do not rationalize away the continuing existence of sinful actions and
attitudes (such things as moral compromise, spiritual pride, loss of temper, or
harsh, unloving responses to people), just because you have gone through the
rebound mechanics.
11. Decide to express brotherly love to other believers in the body.
Express it by faith, so that it can be the product of the Holy Spirit.
12. Do not let infatuation with a Bible class hinder you from having a
balanced, Christian life including time to build healthy family relationships, time
to develop Bible study tools, time to build bridges for evangelizing the unsaved,
time to show hospitality, and time to meet various spiritual, material and
emotional needs of other members in the body of Christ.
13. Learn how to be ministered to by ministers who use a different
terminology than Thieme does.
14. Commit yourself to be a healing factor, and promote true expressions
of unity. Do not let the Corinthian error affect you, that is, the error of building a
pseudo-spirituality on a man-centered mentality.
15. Be sensitive to the hang-ups and taboos of other Christians. Do not
allow your liberty to become a source of stumbling to others.
Truthtesty
It would be wise to just read Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology, instead of listening to the "1961 Basics" of Thieme. The difference in the time from Chafer writing "Systematic Theology" and Thieme's 1961 basics is only about 10 years. Chafer's "Systematic Theology", does not contain the Thieme errors. But if someone does decide to proceed, you have been forewarned. In addition to the following suggestions by Dr. Wall, I suggest that you read the critiques at the end of each chapter of Dr. Wall's dissertation (on faith-rest, spirituality, spirit-filled life, etc...). [www.texaswalls.org]
Per Dr. Wall's dissertation:
SUGGESTIONS TO STUDENTS OF R. B. THIEME, JR.
This section is dedicated to those who are presently studying under
Thieme or who may be potential students of Thieme's. The suggestions listed
below may not apply to every student; however, they are appropriate suggestions
in the light of the author's personal experience as a Thieme student, observations
of current problems relating to Thieme students, and information gleaned from a
number of interviews.
1. Check out anything new that Thieme teaches, by engaging in a personal
study of the Word of God. This can be done fairly easily through the following
means. First, read the text involved in its context from at least two different good
translations. Second, use a good, exhaustive concordance (such as a Young's
Concordance), and notice how particular words, that are significant to Thieme's
new doctrines, are actually used in the Scriptures. The use of a word is the major
basis for determining its denotative and connotative meanings. The Young's
Analytical Concordance also includes a breakdown by the particular Hebrew or
Greek words employed. Third, check with other sources, such as other Bible
teachers or Bible commentaries; for in "a multitude of counselors" (Prov. 11:14)
is deliverance. Be like the Bereans in the Book of Acts, who did not believe Paul
until they had checked him out in the Scriptures (Acts 17:1 1). Fourth, sift
Thieme's teachings, so that you are able to screen out that which is truly biblical
doctrine and that which is an extension of Thieme's opinions and personality. If
you are unable to do such a sifting process, you would be wise to refrain from
studying under Thieme at all.
2. Employ other sources of teaching, such as other Bible teachers and
books written on Bible exposition and Bible doctrine, to help you develop a
healthy, balanced Christian life.
3. Plan to become a personal student of the Scriptures, dependent upon the
Lord and the Scriptures, and not dependent upon men. As soon as possible, move
beyond the stage of sucking strained meat; learn how to carve and chew the meat
of the Word of God for yourself.
4. If you are engaged in studying Thieme via tapes, commit yourself to a
balanced diet, using a large number of taped studies by men like, Stanley
Toussaint, S. Lewis Johnson, J. Dwight Pentecost, and Francis Schaeffer. If you
find it difficult to establish your doctrinal categories, you might find it helpful to
read Major Bible Themes by Lewis Sperry Chafer (recently revised and edited by
John F. Walvoord).
155
5. As you listen to Thieme, be careful to draw only God's truth from the
message, and avoid emulating Thieme's mannerisms. This word of advice is
applicable, not only to students of Thieme, but to students of any teacher.
6. If you are in an evangelical church where Christ is honored and His
Word is respected, do not feel that it is necessary to leave that church, in order to
study under Thieme in a tape group or tape church. You need the ministry of the
members of the body of Christ one toward another under the authority of church
leadership (elders or pastors).
7. Make certain that any practice of separating from other believers is for
reasons clearly stated in Scripture (gross immorality, rebellion against the
church's elders, or doctrinal heresy). Do not allow a man or his distinctive
teachings to be a basis for separation from friends or family.
8. Do not fall prey to the subtle sin of pride in knowledge.
9. Do not confuse your grasping of truth and the collection of information
(either in your head or in a notebook) with truly being affected by truth and
becoming mature.
10. Do not rationalize away the continuing existence of sinful actions and
attitudes (such things as moral compromise, spiritual pride, loss of temper, or
harsh, unloving responses to people), just because you have gone through the
rebound mechanics.
11. Decide to express brotherly love to other believers in the body.
Express it by faith, so that it can be the product of the Holy Spirit.
12. Do not let infatuation with a Bible class hinder you from having a
balanced, Christian life including time to build healthy family relationships, time
to develop Bible study tools, time to build bridges for evangelizing the unsaved,
time to show hospitality, and time to meet various spiritual, material and
emotional needs of other members in the body of Christ.
13. Learn how to be ministered to by ministers who use a different
terminology than Thieme does.
14. Commit yourself to be a healing factor, and promote true expressions
of unity. Do not let the Corinthian error affect you, that is, the error of building a
pseudo-spirituality on a man-centered mentality.
15. Be sensitive to the hang-ups and taboos of other Christians. Do not
allow your liberty to become a source of stumbling to others.
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: April 23, 2008 06:31AM
Regarding the 1961 Basics series,
If you are intending on listening to this series, and have only just recently come across this forum (and are unfamiliar with Thieme Jr's teachings), you would do well to first become an educated consumer.
i.e. first become familiar with the reasons why this is a controversial group, by reading through the posts on this forum, and also by visiting the 4shared website link, found on page 116 of this forum.
If you are intending on listening to this series, and have only just recently come across this forum (and are unfamiliar with Thieme Jr's teachings), you would do well to first become an educated consumer.
i.e. first become familiar with the reasons why this is a controversial group, by reading through the posts on this forum, and also by visiting the 4shared website link, found on page 116 of this forum.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: April 23, 2008 11:34AM
this picture from 1988 said it all:-
Attachments: pic.jpg (96.8 KB)
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 24, 2008 05:08AM
Quote
orangeperuviscacha
this picture from 1988 said it all:-
Hi Orange,
I am not sure I understand this picture. From 1988 OK but from who and about who? Are these individual tapers in their own private "boxes" listening to Thieme tapes and the droopy people outside are all alone, too? or are they non people because they are not listening to Bob's tapes? One of Katy's drawings for a Thieme book?
HELP!
Sis
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
PastorThiemeisGreat2me
()
Date: April 28, 2008 01:56AM
WOW, Where is the LOVE. Christ taught that they will know you because you love one another. I LOVE Pastor Thieme because the Lord sent me to him or visa versa when I had prayed about all the confusion with reguards to what I had read in the Bible. When I read the KJV of the New Testament through 3 times I came up with a list of 10 or more contridictions in there. Talk about confusion of a new believer. Well after much prayer God the father solved that problem. The confusion stopped when I learned that the original languages of scriptures have no contridictions. Now who taught me that? Before I learned of Bob Thieme I had listened to 50 - 100 Pastors and ministers on TV and Radio and had read numerious books on religions and different faiths trying to figure out who really had the truth. Well that was back in 1971 - 1973 and that is where my search stopped. But that is not where my individual study stopped. Still searching the scriptures on my own and with my tools and books I would have to say I Thank God Almighty for my Pastor Robert Thieme with whom I have learned so much about my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Godhead, Soteriology and Christology, prophecy, etc etc etc, the Blood of Chrst, figuritive language and the Lamb of God, figuritive language, and many other Biblical Doctrines that I had wondered about along the way..... GOD sent me to him to lead and guide me to spiritual maturity. With the ICE teaching and with my Good fight of faith I will hold the high ground as RBT encourges us who love the Word of the Lord and the Lord should do. Learning Bible doctrine daily is my profession as unto the Lord.
A warning to those who disagree with the The Teachings of RBT. Be careful, God is listening. Jeremaih 17:15. Some of my favorite scripture's are Jere 15:16 and Proverbs 3:13-18. With all the controversy about RBT he must have done something right. Why did'nt all those Dr"s" of Divinity teach us the importance of the original languages of scriptures. Why are the Pastors of today just figuring that out when RBT was teaching the importance back in the 50"s. Who was ahead of the ball game? I hear and see so many negative comment about RBT and I wonder what he did to warrent so much antagonism. Well I know that Christ was railed upon and he saved our souls from the Lake of Fire therefore Satan does not like it when the truth is revealed so what should we expect. This is a spiritual warfare we Christians are in and the Enemy has already been defeated and on his way to that Lake. Thank the Lord for the Victory and the LOVE he has for us (mankind) and especially believers who have a double portion of God's righteousness which brings to us the personal love from God. If God so loved the world but Hated Esau what does that tell you? It tells you that you might be confused and need to learn about anthrpopathisums. You might learn about that from Pastor Thieme, OH but you think he is wrong and you possibly would like to stay in ignorance. I thought Paul said BE NOT IGNORANT brethern?
I thank God for the USA even though many people in the USA don't believe that BLACK people love living here and by the way grateful to be BORN here as well, I DO. If Pastor Thieme was so prejudice as I have learned from some blogs on this site, myself and my many BLACK Christian brothers might be at OBAMA"S Church or listenning to his Pastor which has been mis-represented just like Pastor Thieme has been on certain things. Although I do not agree with all of OBAMA's Pastor's biblical views I also do not agree with those who misrepresent Pastors for Political gain. Peace be unto you all who will Love the appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
A warning to those who disagree with the The Teachings of RBT. Be careful, God is listening. Jeremaih 17:15. Some of my favorite scripture's are Jere 15:16 and Proverbs 3:13-18. With all the controversy about RBT he must have done something right. Why did'nt all those Dr"s" of Divinity teach us the importance of the original languages of scriptures. Why are the Pastors of today just figuring that out when RBT was teaching the importance back in the 50"s. Who was ahead of the ball game? I hear and see so many negative comment about RBT and I wonder what he did to warrent so much antagonism. Well I know that Christ was railed upon and he saved our souls from the Lake of Fire therefore Satan does not like it when the truth is revealed so what should we expect. This is a spiritual warfare we Christians are in and the Enemy has already been defeated and on his way to that Lake. Thank the Lord for the Victory and the LOVE he has for us (mankind) and especially believers who have a double portion of God's righteousness which brings to us the personal love from God. If God so loved the world but Hated Esau what does that tell you? It tells you that you might be confused and need to learn about anthrpopathisums. You might learn about that from Pastor Thieme, OH but you think he is wrong and you possibly would like to stay in ignorance. I thought Paul said BE NOT IGNORANT brethern?
I thank God for the USA even though many people in the USA don't believe that BLACK people love living here and by the way grateful to be BORN here as well, I DO. If Pastor Thieme was so prejudice as I have learned from some blogs on this site, myself and my many BLACK Christian brothers might be at OBAMA"S Church or listenning to his Pastor which has been mis-represented just like Pastor Thieme has been on certain things. Although I do not agree with all of OBAMA's Pastor's biblical views I also do not agree with those who misrepresent Pastors for Political gain. Peace be unto you all who will Love the appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 28, 2008 06:57PM
Pas,
Thieme brought this upon himself. If Thieme had not misrepresented the facts and the Word, then this thread would not exist. Christians have a right to gather and correct the errors of any elder. The Word of God is more important than the words of Thieme.
Take for example Thieme's misrepresentation for the "Blood of Christ". Since Thieme claimed followed Dr. Chafer so closely, then why didn't Thieme point out Dr. Chafer's own example of the figurative usage of the blood of Christ?
Thieme
Quote:
1 John 1:7 "And THE BLOOD FROM HIS VEINS WAS A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS HANDS AND A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS FEET, AND IT DOESN'T SAVE YOU AND NEVER WILL"
Truthtesty:
This is clearly NOT what Thieme learned at Dallas Theological Seminary. What Thieme should have learned at Dallas Theological Seminary was:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. V pg 199
1 John 1:7 Quote:
"Those who have attained by His grace to the courts of glory are identified, not by their works, their sufferings, or their personal merit, but they are described as those whose robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. This is a figure calculated to represent purification as high as heaven in quality. It is termed a figure of speech, but it is not meaningless on that account; and so there is limitless reality in it. It may be understood only as Christ’s blood is seen to be the one divinely provided means whereby the soul and spirit of man may be purified. Cleansing so depends upon the blood of Christ that it may be said to be accomplished directly by that blood
Either Thieme was a poor student and missed this statement of Dr. Chafer or Thieme was intentionally misleading people about Dr. Chafer, for Thieme's own ends.
Another of Thieme's misrepresentations:
Thieme quote BOC 1979:
As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich "haima":
haima
1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc... hemorrhage (cf. Lev 15:25, 20:18)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc... It's use as food is forbidden (cf. Lev 3:17, 7:26f, 17:10)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
2. fig--- a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc... shed blood = kill (Aeschyl.; Gen 9:6, 37:22, Lev 17:4,13, 1Km 25:31 al.;... Luke 11: 50, Acts 22:20, Rom. 3:15 (Ps 13:3, Is 59:7) Rv 16:6, Luke 11:51, Mt 23:20, Rv 16:6, 18:24, 17:6, 19:2, (1Km 9:7), 6:10, Pol 2:1, Mt 27: 4,24, Heb 12:4, (cf Heliod 7,8,2 ...) ...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc... (then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So to determine the figurative usage of "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice compare 1Cl 55:1 with Rom. 3:25.
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.
[www.earlychristianwritings.com]
Truthtesty:
You can understand the true figurative usage meant by Arndt and Gingrich. In this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed. The figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" being used to figuratively point to the ruler's own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice. Arndt and Gingrich are saying the figurative usage of haima in this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed.
Arndt and Gingrich goes on:
Arndt and Gingrich:
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc... (then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
So comparing the Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage properly as in comparison with Cl 55:1 we see that the figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" "haima" being used to figuratively to point to Jesus' own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice (not just blood alone). Thieme is jumping to a false conclusion to provide false evidence for his false theory of "spiritual death only" and in doing so is unjustly attacking the Blood of Christ. Ardnt and Gingrich do not understand or agree with Thieme's false "figurative" teaching.
You can compare and see that Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage haima in both cases 1Cl 55:1 with Rom 3:25, is the same figurative usages, although obviously used with different people.
Therefore Thieme's conclusion that this in some "sense" supports Thieme's false theory of "spiritual death only" and Thieme's false theory that "haima" is ABSOLUTELY figurative and does not refer to literal blood, is not substantiated by the evidence of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich.
Truthtesty
Thieme brought this upon himself. If Thieme had not misrepresented the facts and the Word, then this thread would not exist. Christians have a right to gather and correct the errors of any elder. The Word of God is more important than the words of Thieme.
Take for example Thieme's misrepresentation for the "Blood of Christ". Since Thieme claimed followed Dr. Chafer so closely, then why didn't Thieme point out Dr. Chafer's own example of the figurative usage of the blood of Christ?
Thieme
Quote:
1 John 1:7 "And THE BLOOD FROM HIS VEINS WAS A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS HANDS AND A LITTLE BLEEDING FROM HIS FEET, AND IT DOESN'T SAVE YOU AND NEVER WILL"
Truthtesty:
This is clearly NOT what Thieme learned at Dallas Theological Seminary. What Thieme should have learned at Dallas Theological Seminary was:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. V pg 199
1 John 1:7 Quote:
"Those who have attained by His grace to the courts of glory are identified, not by their works, their sufferings, or their personal merit, but they are described as those whose robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. This is a figure calculated to represent purification as high as heaven in quality. It is termed a figure of speech, but it is not meaningless on that account; and so there is limitless reality in it. It may be understood only as Christ’s blood is seen to be the one divinely provided means whereby the soul and spirit of man may be purified. Cleansing so depends upon the blood of Christ that it may be said to be accomplished directly by that blood
Either Thieme was a poor student and missed this statement of Dr. Chafer or Thieme was intentionally misleading people about Dr. Chafer, for Thieme's own ends.
Another of Thieme's misrepresentations:
Thieme quote BOC 1979:
As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich "haima":
haima
1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc... hemorrhage (cf. Lev 15:25, 20:18)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc... It's use as food is forbidden (cf. Lev 3:17, 7:26f, 17:10)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
2. fig--- a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc... shed blood = kill (Aeschyl.; Gen 9:6, 37:22, Lev 17:4,13, 1Km 25:31 al.;... Luke 11: 50, Acts 22:20, Rom. 3:15 (Ps 13:3, Is 59:7) Rv 16:6, Luke 11:51, Mt 23:20, Rv 16:6, 18:24, 17:6, 19:2, (1Km 9:7), 6:10, Pol 2:1, Mt 27: 4,24, Heb 12:4, (cf Heliod 7,8,2 ...) ...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc... (then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So to determine the figurative usage of "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice compare 1Cl 55:1 with Rom. 3:25.
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.
[www.earlychristianwritings.com]
Truthtesty:
You can understand the true figurative usage meant by Arndt and Gingrich. In this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed. The figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" being used to figuratively point to the ruler's own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice. Arndt and Gingrich are saying the figurative usage of haima in this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed.
Arndt and Gingrich goes on:
Arndt and Gingrich:
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc... (then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
So comparing the Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage properly as in comparison with Cl 55:1 we see that the figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" "haima" being used to figuratively to point to Jesus' own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice (not just blood alone). Thieme is jumping to a false conclusion to provide false evidence for his false theory of "spiritual death only" and in doing so is unjustly attacking the Blood of Christ. Ardnt and Gingrich do not understand or agree with Thieme's false "figurative" teaching.
You can compare and see that Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage haima in both cases 1Cl 55:1 with Rom 3:25, is the same figurative usages, although obviously used with different people.
Therefore Thieme's conclusion that this in some "sense" supports Thieme's false theory of "spiritual death only" and Thieme's false theory that "haima" is ABSOLUTELY figurative and does not refer to literal blood, is not substantiated by the evidence of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich.
Truthtesty
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