Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:


Here's a phrase that thiemites need to become familiar with - "illegitimate totality transfer".


Barr's reputation as one of the most influential biblical scholars and Semitists of the second half of the twentieth century rests on both the range of his interests and the incisive character of his contributions. His first book, The Semantics of Biblical Language (1961), addressed the linguistic and theological problems associated with transferring a religious tradition from one language into another. He scrutinized several widely accepted features of biblical scholarship at the time and demonstrated fundamental flaws underlying each: the notion that there was a basic difference between the Hebrew way of thinking and the Greek way of thinking; the practice of associating the history of a given word with the history of a theological concept; the use made of etymologies; and the philosophical and linguistic underpinnings of much work in "biblical theology." Drawing on principles from the fields of semantics and linguistics, Barr argued that one cannot simply assume—as he shows many have done—that the linguistic structure of a language reveals the thought structures of the people speaking that language. He was especially critical of Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, a widely used multi-volume project underway beginning in the 1930s, which Barr found to be all too often guilty of what he called an "illegitimate totality transfer," i.e. the whole range of meanings that a word could have in its various semantic contexts is thought to be present in each individual case. According to Barr, it is much more appropriate to look for theology not in a word but in a sentence or combination of words, a principle that most subsequent scholarly efforts to produce a "theological dictionary" have tried to follow.
[sblonline.org]


Truthtesty

REPEAT AFTER ME:


CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT!

That is basically what is being said here.

According to Barr, it is much more appropriate to look for theology not in a word but in a sentence or combination of words, a principle that most subsequent scholarly efforts to produce a "theological dictionary" have tried to follow.[/color]
[sblonline.org]


Treating a reference work by fallible men, including Barr's, as if it were Holy Scripture, is a HUGE ERROR and SCHOLAROLATRY ruled in the thieme system. He put himself on a pedestal as a "scholar" and taught others to revere and believe what he said because of that regardless of what their own eyes told them when reading Scripture for themselves IN CONTEXT.

OH, I FORGOT....Our leader said we were not competent to read the English, any English, and get the truth we needed from God to mature.

Quite a system isn't it?

Sistersoap

Quote
Tommy Tsunami
I am new here but a message board fan and found this one recently.

I am also very familiar with R.B. Thieme, having begun listening to him in 1983 with a great deal of concentrated learning until the mid 90's.

I am also very familiar with the objections to Thieme and Barachah church as a whole.

So let me tell you my experience and conclusions.

Today what is offered by most Evangelical Protestant/Baptist churches, both Non-Charismatic and Charismatic, is going to be GARBAGE such as Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven" nonsense, juvenile views reflected in "The Emergent Church" and the "Post-Modern" church (this is just the hippie church being redone with today's clothing, hair and music styles but such proponents imagine they are clever and have found something never considered), Bob Jones University hyper-legalistic types, and "Gender Abandonment" mentalities that have destroyed the clear biblical basis of ecclesiastical structure and authority hence either accepting or looking the other way with the ordination or women Ministers or as many of the Baptists do in their hypocrisy the don't ordain them or call them ministers but let them teach in pulpits as those with ecclesiastical and doctrinal authority.

And the truth is this is just an inkling of the kind of horrendous anti-biblical garbage tolerated and promoted in the alleged Evangelical Protestant/Baptist churches today, both Charismatic and Non-Charismatic (and it is bad enough charismania is practiced so extensively but worse that ministers who clamor to take back America for God look the other way for these Charismaniacal fools who forge the name of God on their work).

Even within half-way sound churches the wacked out "Reformed" and "Calvinist" Pharisees are hard at work sneaking their poison into the moist soil that lays in the hearts of young ministers and impressionable theology students.

And don't think those holding to dispensational schemes in their theology aren't guilty either. Now they operate in ignorance and foolishness in many parts, with their inappropriate divisions and ridiculous and childish use of their license of liberty. Ever been to one of these dispensational assemblies where every other word is "dispensational" and "rightly dividing"? They are like robots regurgitating what they have been told without any real personal scrutiny or evaluation.

But much like the Calvinists and Reformed types, they invest their ego in these system they think make them the clever ones and the most enlightened and illuminated ones. Idiots if you ask me and headed for nasty falls.

_______

And so when I look back over the years and the varying treatments of the doctrines of the Bible I learned from R. B. Thieme I have 4 outstanding observations and conclusions.

I. The body of work

Thieme's word by word, verse by verse, concept by concept exegesis is not just massive but by in large consistent with Orthodox Evangelical doctrine. In others words, he did what most fat, lazy, self-impressed ministers refuse to do, STUDY and TEACH which is what it takes to FEED sheep.

Thieme's work is not without a SMALL area of controversy. While CHARISMATIC ministers deny essential doctrines, while Evangelical ministers dismiss large portions of Scripture and are celebrated for gimmicks and games with books like "Purpose Driven" or "The Prayer of Jabez" while spitting on sound exegesis and hermeneutics to formulate their ideas, Thieme's areas of controversy are in exegetical conclusions that at NO PLACE and at NO TIME deny the essentials of ORTHODOX Evangelical Christianity

II. His Practical Ecclesiology

Thieme was and is right. The shepherd answers to God for his sheep. He took this call seriously. Did he perform with PERFECTION? No, ask yourself is your complaint about his foibles and imperfections or GROSS VIOLATIONS?

Thieme taught regularly that the private lives of others were NONE of anyone else's business. If Thieme is so responsible for building a cult, then this very IMPORTANT element of building one, that of violating the privacy of others, was REJECTED by THIEME.

Because Thieme knew he would answer for the care of the sheep given to him, he guarded them with the charge given to him by God. The fact is most Ministers see it as a game, Bob Thieme did not. He took it seriously. What a disgusting shame most don't. The sheep are a means to an end for most ministers, not the end (their feeding) which is exactly what Bob Thieme understood.

III. His students

Thieme repeatedly made clear that believers were individual priests before God and that were chose under whom they would learn and their learning and growth was before God, not him and not others and that no person was answerable to him or anyone else regarding that choice and no one was to or is to interfere with such decisions. That is NOT the practice of a cult.

Thieme, like any good teacher, will inevitably have weak sheep. This is both the nature of humanity and certainly that of Christianity. Why? Because God made it clear the average profile of those that were saved were not winners in the world. It doesn't mean some couldn't be but it wouldn't be par for the course (by the way, all the more reason I recognize why R.B. Thieme was so insistent on repetitive teaching, living life from a position of strength from Bible Doctrine and insisting on the regular intake of sound Bible doctrine).

And so with such a reality there is bound to be those who wrongfully never go beyond dependency on R.B. Thieme. And to be sure, without count Thieme made it clear the believer's dependency was to be on Bible Doctrine. And so admittedly this kind of weak believer is often reflected in imitating things like Thieme's dress and demeanor which is reflective, NOT of a wrong on the part of R.B. Thieme but a weakness of some students.

Did R.B.Thieme ever promote such dependency? On the contrary, he insisted on the Bible's standard for maturity and independency.

IV. For me

I belong to a good church with good teaching. Now and then I still review some material by R. B. Thieme. I do not agree with every single thought or teaching to come from him but find most of what he has presented to be exegetically and hermeneutically sound.

Take the teachings of John Calvin. Many of today's Calvinists are quite weak in their personalities. They do behave rather similarly to cult members. And though I don't agree with Calvinism, that isn't the point. The question is, does this make John Calvin responsible or those who have read his works and in their immaturity cannot and will not entertain other thoughts outside of the influence of Calvin?

Or the Bible itself. What about it? Many misuse it to form cults. Is this the fault of the Bible? No. Thieme is no different. It is clear and fair to say he did not introduce the principles or practice of cults easily identified and often stated by cults themselves. Thieme categorically REJECTED such ideas and practices. Was he deliberate, guarded with his sheep and took strong control of the ministry given to him by God? Indeed as men should.


The pulpits of America and this world are filled with children, novices and offers of cotton candy. Thieme's popularity was due to inadequate pulpits and this is growing worse day by day. May men committed to sound hermeneutics and serious exegesis enter pulpits more and more and these childish fantasies that "Purpose Driven", "Dance Ministries", "Women in Ministry", "Charismania with horrendous people like O'Steen and TBN", and the "Emergent and Post-Modern" be minimized. Ignorance truly reigns so if indeed you have a good Bible teacher, rejoice today because it is not the predominant trait of the church of Jesus Christ.

TO TOMMY:
Welcome to the forum. It is a real shame that apostate Christianity makes Thieme look so good, isn't it?

THE NORM is studying and teaching the Bible, and teaching the sheep to feed themselves not to depend upon their teacher for crumbs from the table. It ought not to be unusual to teach verse by verse through the Word of God as best as you are gifted to do, and let the chips fall where they may.

Unfortunately Thieme's teaching was what his hearers came to study not the bible itself. CONTEXT was completely swallowed up in endless "doctrines" that were mostly figments of his imagination.

At least your post had the novelty of pointing out the very trend that gave Thieme his greatest attraction to earnest believers wanting THE WORD, THE WORD, THE WORD OF GOD. There IS a famine of the Word of God in the land. That is why poorly fed sheep fall for Rick warren and others you mention.

I must say that any "system" whether Dispensational or Calvinistic, can become a stumbling block if that is your main focus. THIEME'S TEACHING OF THE WORD OF GOD replaced the Word of God because that is what he told us was true. Not in those words, of course, but everything that came out of his mouth in the pulpit WAS BIBLE DOCTRINE IN HIS MIND AND IN HIS GROUPS. This is not true, and it does a tremendous disservice to compare a rotten apple to a rotten orange and say look how much better the one is than the other.

Most Thiemeites can't find their way around the English Bible for themselves and don't read it extensively or intensively. Since we are not commanded to submit to any "scholar" as our authoroity, doing that is unscriptural and unhealthy. This is not just a matter of opinion. We have the Pharisees as models, and Thieme's system however well intentioned and EVEN BETTER BY CONTRAST TO THE GARBAGE often found elsewhere, does not make it right or safe or Biblical.

Thieme taught his words and ideas as if they WERE SCRIPTURE and that his personal "breakthroughs" were really new, fresh and biblical. They were not. For example renaming confession of sin FOR forgiveness FOR the child of God and calling it REBOUND and making it the sole contact point of the believer with God is INCONSISTENT WITH THE BELIEVER'S TRUE IDENTITY IN CHRIST and with CHRIST HIMSELF IN US, our only hope of Glory. Thieme's system demanded a legalistic adherence to his teaching of Bible not the Bible itself, and I am not surprised that a dedicated Thiemer like you can't see that.

Sistersoap

Hello Sister,

You have been gone a while.

Did you see where I posted that Doktor Gerahrd Kittle, of Kittle's Theological Dictionary, was one of Hitler's theologians? Doktor Kittle was imprisoned after WWII by the allies. The allies went straight to the university where Doktor Kittle taught and arrested him. Kittle was imprisoned for 17 months.

[www.vitalvisuals.com]

[books.google.com]


Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament was so poorly written, that I could not identify the J. Behm in Thieme's reference in Kittle's TDNT, for quite awhile. In some volumes it was it was "Johannes Behm" other volumes "J. Behm". There is only one Behm listed for all the volumes of the entire Kittle's TDNT. It was listed in the index in the last volume (the only index) - Johannes Behm of Göttingen.

Behm, Johannes
(1883–1948). Prot. theol.; b. Doberan, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Ger.; prof. Königsberg 1920, Göttingen 1923, Berlin 1935. Coed. Das Neue Testament Deutsch. Other works include Die Handauflegung im Urchristentum; Der Begriff Diatheke in Neuen Testament; Die Bekehrung des Paulus; Die mandäische Religion und das Christenturn.

Also Doktor Johannes Behm did not go to prison as far as I know, but Johannes Behm also supported Hitler and the Nazi movement. [www.verfolgte-schueler.org] . Emanual Hirsch (listed as Hitler's theologian see above) and Johannes Behm are associated in that german document also.

Walter Bauer made reference to JBehm and LMorris, in Walter Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature. JBehm was not listed under 2. b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.)., but JBehm was listed under 3. Of the (apocalyptic) red color....Blood on the whole-JBehm, but in a later edition the reference to J. Behm is completely removed, but LMorris's reference remains..

[www.4shared.com]

Doktor Paul Althaus was Althaus and Behm wrote a book together.
Paul Althaus (also considered one of Hitler's Theologians (see above)) and Johannes Behm wrote a book together. "Das Neue Testament deutsch" Johannes Behm (Autor), Peter Stuhlmacher (Autor), Gerhard Friedrich (Autor), Paul Althaus (Autor)

[www.amazon.de]



Truthtesty

Quote
Tommy Tsunami
God's blessings,[/quote
And herein lies your disingenuous claim to offense by Thieme and his defenders. I find not one single post by anyone claiming INFALLIBILITY by Thieme, and in fact made it clear I don't agree with everything yet you CLEARLY ignore all of that reality to post that which is not true and has not even a hint of validity. Show me where anyone claims such infallible status for Thieme's teaching. Something tells me you have another agenda since such a simple truth as genuinely representing the thoughts of those favorable to Thieme does not appear to be high on your list of priorities.


The weakness of others isn't the fault of R.B. Thieme and this is where much of the blame lies. But then, I have heard there is a seat in Rome where claims of infallibility rise now and then only to correct past doctrinal mistakes. LOL

AS USUAL Tommy, you thieme defenders always tout your generic I DON'T BELIEVE EVRYTHING HE TAUGHT then fail to list a single area of disagreement or why you think it is wrong what he taught.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE he trained his faithful followers to do exactly what they did: believe his every word. They failed to kiss the hem of his garment as he passed, but he also failed to raise the dead as he went by, too. He said EXPLICITLY OVER AND OVER AGAIN that we cannot read the bible for ourselves and get truth from God, that we can't mature (his idea of maturity) apart from faithful "intake of (his teaching) of Bible doctrine." Why else be so afraid to miss a day without taking in (as in drug) doctrine? I don't recall being instructed to be glued to a man's teaching rather than to the source itself: God and His Words.

How do you deal with this?
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

{{{There are MANY SO-CALLED DOCTRINES THAT Thieme taught that are simply not in the bible. Examine the posts of SpirtualLiberty in this thread for more information and examples. You really owe it to yourself as a Thieme apologist to read all that has gone before.}}}

How about this?
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

That means single men, or divorced men, are not qualified. Don't give me that stuff about "one wife at a time." I doubt Thieme believed half what he said from the pulpit. Imagine Bobby having Katie explain over the phone about why a divorced man IS QUALIFIED. She of all people ought to know well how false the "Right Man-Right Woman" teaching was and still is. Yet it is till sanctioned, and weasling out by saying oh IT WAS MISUNDERSTOOD is not a sufficient answer when you claim DOCTRINAL BREAKTHROUGH for it. That is saying that the content of the message IS DOCTRINE AND THAT VIOLATES THE SCRIPTURE'S COMMAND to TEACH NO OTHER DOCTRINE.

HOW ABOUT THISPASSAGE?
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

GODLINESS was laughed at by Thieme. It was shredded by the practices of the flesh that naturally took over in the ABSENCE OF A VITAL AREA OF TRUTH, which is CHRIST IN YOU YOUR ONLY HOPE OF GLORY. Not how much Bible Doctrine you can suck down being spoon fed by the Master in the pulpit. Thieme was wrong about more than some of the things he did teach, he was even more wrong for WHAT HE LEFT OUT. Yet that thought is untenable to thieme loyalists, of which you are certainly one.

What about this?
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

IF EVER THERE WAS A MAN not gentle or patient or apt to teach, it was Thieme. He thundered from his pulpit and dared anyone to move a muscle in "disrespect" to his sacred process. I am sorry, but that is not church, it is indoctrination. If you must command manners, you are not a leader!

As long as you agree with Thieme you were left alone, and if you don't you had better stay quiet, you were ignored. (This was called privacy; I CALL IT ISOLATION.) If you left, it was
~ You did not understand the teaching.
~ He must not have been your right pastor.
~ My favorite expert recommended him. (So why are you disagreeing?)
~ He is so advanced in wisdom and expertise, (SCHOLAROLATRY), that nobody else is qualified to judge his teaching so therefore, anyone who does judge his teaching is WONG AND OUT OF LINE.
~If you reject the teaching, God will get you for it. This makes the teaching equal to the Word of God and don't tell me otherwise because it is absolutely the result of Thieme's training his hearers THAT WHAT HE TEACHES IS BIBLE DOCTRINE.
~ AND IF YOU DO DISAGREE, LEAVE, QUIETLY. Don't discuss with others any possible errors coming from Thieme's pulpit.

YOU AT LEAST had the novel twist of observing the all too sad truth that today's church is so apostasized that it makes Thieme look great. but you are sincerely wrong about his greatness.

He started out with a good idea, but ran it off a cliff, and drew many others after him who having believed him, surrendered their personal volition to him, and allowed him to convince them He was between them and God and between them and God's Words. And this was a direct result of his teaching them to do this, not a mere misunderstanding.

WHAT ABOUT:
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

There is no such doctrine as "right pastor-teacher." We are taught plainly to respect and love those elders who rule well. But we are not told to "worship" a pastor to the point that he does our thinking for him. After all, while under his sway, none of us would ever have considered questioning anything coming out of his mouth, and I don't think it is honest to claim otherwise. Saying this was just a few individual's weakness is a cop out.

When Thieme said:
LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON ME!

and

YOU CAN'T READ THE WORD OF GOD YOUR SELF AND MATURE AS A BELIEVER

all true Christians ought to have gotten up and walked out, including me, but I did not because I had already obeyed this man's teaching by considering him my "right pastor-teacher" and that leaving his teaching was leaving God's Word. It was also per his teaching to invite God's wrath to not believe "Bible Doctrine."

And you say this is better than Calvin? I don't think so. Both were blind guides and both led people into a ditch.

Oh I know.

Not everything he said was wrong, but as Testy and others have pointed out, and what Thieme supporters still refuse to face, is that he was WRONG ABOUT ENOUGH to make it not worth the cost of sticking with him.

You could find other teachers, godly men, who humbly and quietly teach the Word of God and could use the support of hungry sheep.


So now. Tommy T. I suspect you are not going to answer these objections except to deny them. I dare you to listen to the tape excerpt of Thieme saying LIKE IT OR NOT YOU ARE DEPENDENT ON ME! and justify that from Scripture.

This link
{ [www.4shared.com] } takes you to a page on the 4shared files web site. You will find a list of files available to listen to or download.

The SECOND AUDIO FILE on the list is Pastor Graves' presentation. He includes EXCERPTS from Thieme's tapes. Especially noteworthy is the place where Thieme actually says.
"Whether you like it or not, YOU are dependent on ME!"
Priceless.

This link
{ [www.4shared.com] } should take you DIRECTLY to the link for Graves. Click on the PLAY TAB to access the recording.

We are not required to learn Hebrew or Greek to get truth from God and His Word. What we must have is TEACHABILITY, and that is one thing Thieme seems to have forgotten for himself. The attitude he projected from the pulpit was a bogus authorityand left a bad taste in the mouth of all sheep trying to find a faifhful shepherd who would LEAD THEM and not drill them as if they were his private platoon.

God is our friend, not our enemy. His Word is to the Christian who wants truth, sweet and not all that complicated to someone willing to be taught of the Spirit. We have a faithful translation of the inspired texts freely available to read. And if we are skilled in other languages, fine! But that is no guarantee of truth, and we ought not to submit to anyone who claims it is. It makes us DEPENDENT ON A MAN, and an arrogant one at that.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

IF EVER there was an example of MAN'S WORDS exampting God's Words it is in the teaching of RB Thieme Jr. His words, his concepts, his "breakthroughs" (what an arrogant concept and how arrogant of him to point this out to us that we were so blessed to "sit under" such genius) taking over and pushing out the simple reliance upon what the Spirit gave us to read in our native language to be taught by the Spirit within what that means, I don't know of a plainer illustration for this verse than the system Thieme created and managed and now has passed on to the next man in his pulpit.

Now you are going to tell us that UNLESS YOU GET IT FROM THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK it can't be relied upon. Well, there was a lot missing from Bob Thieme's education regarding this. He left out a lot. He forgot to mention WHICH MANUSCRIPTS he was using. It makes a huge difference. He forgot to tell us that God is our friend, not our enemy, waiting to clobber us in case we "forgot" to confess a known sin. The legalism he created out of what was full of Grace and Truth takes my breath away.

And above all elese, his system created a cadre of PHARISEES WHO LIKE THE PARISEES OF OLD, had the Living Word standing before them and refused to come to Him for HIS LIFE.

As per:
l Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

We are saved by Christ and His Life, not by studying the Word under Bob Thieme. Sure the climate is dismal in most of Christianity today, but is that surprising given the nature of the enemy and the lateness of the hour? No.

Thieme stole from his hearers the priceless opportunity to learn God's Word simply by opening the Book and reading and asking Him to teach them. He can use teachers, but there is no replacing this as the PRIMARY SOURCE. When we surrender our judgment and our independence to a man, no matter how learned he may be in the original languages, we have lost God's method to grow us up IN HIM.

Thieme's whole scheme was full of DOCTRINES, METHODS, DEVICES, APPLICATION OF THIS OR THAT DOCTRINE, and who is it that is DOING these things? Self. It is a flesh driven life and it is a disaster personally and spiritually because it masquerades as TRUTH FROM GOD. It is not truth from God. It is interference with God's Word in the life of the believer. It need not have been so, but BobThieme made it so.

I expect the devil knows Greek and Hebrew very well indeed, doubtless better than any human. That says nothing about his character, his motives, or his methods, does it? Yet that is almost the sole reason people give in the end for being impressed with Bob Thieme. As if expertise in these languages qualifies a man to be a shepherd of a local church. it does not. There is a place for this knowledge, but it is not the be-all and end-all Thieme would have you believe it is.

How sad, for others once said of the REAL TEACHER,
"NEVER MAN SPAKE LIKE THIS MAN."

And that is the worshipful attitude Thieme's teaching engenders in all his followers. IT IS WHAT HE TAUGHT US TO BELIEVE, we did not misunderstand it. We were just as impressed and dedicated to the teaching as you seem to be. But it is a trap. It is lie. It is deadly.

Now tell me which of the usual excuses you will reply to all this with. Or perhaps you will say as another poster GeneZ said so aptly to the effect that his LIST OF THIEMES' ERRORS IS NOT FOR THE EYES OF THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT RBT WAS ALL ABOUT. Sure! Sacred knowlege available only to the worshipful worthy. If you disagree, or leave, you obviously misunderstood or this was not "right" for you. What ever happened to a real belief in absolute Biblical truth? If he was the only one teaching the truth, and this is what is commonly taught and believed until his bogus methodology is absorbed and taken for divine revelation, then why would you want anyone to go anywhere else? It is plain Thieme set himself up as the ONLY TEACHER OF BIBLE TRUTH WORTH LISTENING TO. So why tell the lowly ones who happen to disagree that they must leave the TRUTH? You are consigning them to divine discipline. That IS what Thieme taught and you know it.

How is that for blind devotion and refusal to face obvious faults and failures?

How much poison do you like in your dessert?

Sistersoap

Quote
Imjustme
If you will kindly indulge me, Mr. Truthtesty...I would like to
shed some light on the topic of "right man/right woman".

Assuming that you agree that The Garden, and Adam and Eve, are a
literal and accurate account of creation, then you will likely
also concur that God created a companion for the first man, and
she was perfectly suited to him in every nuance, soul and body.

God being Who and What He is, absolute and unchanging forever,
it is His practice to establish a precedent, and never deviate
from it whatsoever.

In the case of the man and woman, as they came to exist after our
original parents, it is reasonable to assume that God likewise
endows one woman with a soul and body that is totally compatible
with one man. The one variable in this case is the means of their
selecting one another from the billions of other human beings.
This question is answered in the processes which consume the soul
which is steeped with Biblical information.

If we put our faith in God, and remain patient, He will present our
Divinely designed partner to us in a manner which is clear and
understandable. This is not to say that we will all find our "right
mate", but it is possible if we adhere to the principles put forth
in the Bible and trust God to bring it to pass.

A union between two people that are not "right", as it were, can
nonetheless be a successful marriage, so long as both individuals
learn and apply the tenents of the Christian faith.

Pastor Thieme never did refute what he taught about this subject,
but he did express his chagrin that he taught it in the first place.
Let me explain;

There are believers in any congregation that range from "babies in
the Word" to spiritual adults. The former tend to make false applications,
jump to conclusions, and engage in fruitless activities in general
until they become more adept in their understanding of Scripture.
In the case of RM/RW many such people used this doctrine to justify
leaving their spouse. They were in a rocky relationship, and assumed
that they had their "wrong spouse", therefore it was OK to end the
marriage and seek their "right spouse".

Apparently you have neglected to mention that Bob expressly discouraged
such behavior, particularly on the basis of this doctrine. He stated,
many times, that there are no grounds, other than those stated in the
Bible, for divorcing. If we suspect that we have the "wrong spouse"
we are to remain in the relationship nonetheless, and make the best
of it.

The reason for Thieme's flipflop on RM/RW, you see, was this unfortunate
outcome, the misapplication of what he taught, and the malpractices
that it engendered.

Thank you for your attention to this message.

IMJUSTME:
What Scriptures can you give us to substantiate your statements above other than the Garden of Eden, which you may remember was BEFORE SIN.

Please cite chapter and verse for each of your conclusions.

It ialways the fault of the student for misunderstanding and not of the teacher for teaching error or unscriptural foolishness.

You have accused us of slander. Please state the definition and exactly how anyone here has slandered Bob Thieme?

On the other hand, he slandered and maligned from the public pulpit others with whose teachings he did not agree.

And you compare him to ISAIAH? How embarrassing.
I see that if we had been trutly "positive" we would never have left or disagreed.

You should read every post before going further. Your worshipful little bio is no recommendation for the truth or error or the appropriateness of methodology or the infallibility of the teacher. of course, he is not infallible, you say, yet we point out things that are not IN THE BIBLE and you excuse that. You have been well trained. He FOUND IT IN THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK IS THE ALL ENCOMPASSING MANTRA.

Hope you have a good supply of tapes for when the commies or the muslims take over.

Sistersoap

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Imjustme
I, personally, do not feel that Bobby Thieme is a pastor who can enhance my spiritual
growth, Mile2. I will not comment on why, both out of respect for his father, and for the
reason that God reserves the matter of judging the men (and women) in his service
to himself. There are men who I feel are outright blasphemers, money hungry and
power mad, but it is a slippery slope, indeed, to ridicule them. Thus, with all due
respect, I limit my criticism to saying whether I will study under their teaching, or
not.

As for his hit-and-miss record with marriage, once again, God will determine what
measure of punishment is needed, if any. I will say that there have been men of
great stature that comitted some pretty hairy misdeeds. Jonah comes to mind. He
was SOOOOOO determined not to minister to the Assirians that he took a boat in
the opposite direction, but God has a way of bringing us into line! **chuckle**

It's somewhat off subject, but this issue reminds me that almost every noted Christian
in the Bible eventually comitted serious sins as mature believers. Moses struck the rock
and was not permitted to enter The Land, Paul made a vow in the temple and was
stoned by the Jews (and that don't mean he smoked some herbs!), David probably was
the worst. He raped the wife of his greatest General Officer, and then conspired to
murder him. John denied The Lord three times. etc., etc.

If I may offer my humble opinion; it is not the wrongdoing of our Brethren that are an
issue, but their ability, and motivation, to recover from their transgressions, in so far
as they fight their way back into favor with God. It seems to me that this is the purpose
for those accounts being partof the Holy Scriptures, to assure us that even when we
fail we can turn around a bad situation and regain the high ground.

On last word....if I were a student of Bobby Thieme I wouldn't be so concerned about
his personal life as I would be his qualifications as a pastor-teacher. Any parent knows
the "Do as I say, not as I do" principle. Even though we may strive to be worthy role
models, we fail to behave as we should at times. The same rule applies to pastors. In
fact, I always applied it while studying under RBT Jr. He is less than perfect, to be sure,
but he was meticulously qualified to dig out the Thruth from the original languages.

I hope my views answer your question, sir.

IMJUSTME:

Check your Bible!

Jonah ministered to NINEVEH. Not to the Assyrians. To the city of Nineveh.

AS TO BOBBY'S QUALIFICATIONS:
The Bible says IN PLAIN ENGLISH HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE. Period. Simple as mother's milk. No need to refer to some esoteric "exegesis."

You cannot get around it except to deny it or discount it as you have done. These ARE the qualifications for a PASTOR and Berachah ignored them. And may I say, they got what they deserved. Sadly.

Sistersoap

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Imjustme
Mr. Jones (or Ms.),

You employ the debater's ploy of misdirection very poorly, if I may be so bold.
Where did I state that Bob Thieme is the equal of the men I cited in my post?
Like most instransigent individuals, you are so intent upon your desire to injure
him that you completely miss the point, and further, you take my comments out of
context and lend you own distorted interpretation, then use that as an arguement.
tsk, tsk, tsk.

I know other people who left Berachah, some of whom were highly critical of
Thieme's ministry, but only the most deluded individuals would charactarize
Berachah as a "cult", unless you expand that concept to embrace any body
of believers who are interested in one man's teaching, and endorse him
accordingly.

Not that it will do a whit of good; but I suggest that Bob Thieme is not guilty of
even one trait that every cult leader practices;

He does not meddle in the lives of his followers. ALL cult leaders must become
heavily involved with his adherents in order to effectively brainwash them, and
enforce his maniacal influence over them. I've heard some people criticize Bob
for not being involved enough.

All cults are predicated upon one central theme, such as an impending event, or
an existing social dilemma, that only the leader is allegedly qualified to deal with,
or can speak with authority about same.

The obsessive focus of every cult drives them to colonize, separate themselves
from the mainstream, and conduct their business in an environment of secrecy.
Many of them stockpile weapons, or food, in preparation for "the end of the
world", or some such.

Cults eventually self-destruct. In the case of the Jones cult, in Guyana, they drank
poison coolaid. The Heaven's Gate cult did the same in 1997. The Manson family
were convicted and put in prison. the Branch Dividians died at the hands of the
Feds.

It is unfortunate that your family suffered misfortune, but to blame that on Bob
Thieme is stretching credability a bit too far. If his influence is so nefarious, then how
can you explain that many hundreds of families are blessed by his teaching? Nobody is
handcuffed, and forced to remain in Berachah Church. There is no gestapo monitoring
the congregation, and if anyone disagrees with Thieme they can leave at any time
without persecution or chastisement. In fact, I have personally witnessed people
ousted from our number for gossiping or troublemaking.

You may take exception to Bob Thieme, believe he is a tyrant, or any number of
derogatiory issues concerning his person, but to suggest Berachah is a cult is clear
evidence that you do not understand what a cult is, or how they function.

I take leave of you, with all due respect, Mr. Jones. I mean it when I say that I pray
for your wellbeing and enlightenment. I am aware that nothing I have said here will
make a dent in your angst. Hatred is a fortress that no truth can penetrate.

And by the way, no, I did not learn the things I said about Bob Thieme from him, but
here and there, from third parties, over a period of 20 years. I did not relate one other
interesting snippet. When a banquet was held for the late Charles Moody one attendee
stated that Thieme was a heretic for teaching that the blood of Christ was figurative,
and not literal. Dr. Moody told him outright; "Bob Thime is the greatest exegete alive
today". Anticipating your response, no I do not have documented evidence of this
transaction, anymore than you have proof of your slander that he was having an
affair. So you might say, one hand washes the other.

Good day and farewell. May the love of our Lord bless and keep you. Regardless of our
opposing views, we are of one eternal family, after all, and are, therefore, children of
One God.

IM JUSTME:

Who the heck is CHARLES MOODY and who is he when he is at home?

What we care about is THE WORDS OF GOD AND ARE THEY HONORED AND OBEYED, Not added to, taken from, or changed like Thieme does in (for example) his "corrected translations."

It is obvious that you cannot see a simple discrepancy and say so BERACHAH DISOBEYED SCRIPTURE. If you can't handle that simple verse correctly, why should we trust your estimation of ANY OTHER TEACHING?

Who carew who admires Thieme and his teaching?

IS IT THE TRUTH ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD?

In many cases it is not. You don't have the moral courage to admit even one simple error such as the one on divorce.

Naughty, naughty.

Us slanderers will pray for you, too, hon.


Sistersoap

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Truthtesty

Quote
kcjones

Quote
radaph

Quote
kcjones
Well shoot welcome to 'wrestlin' match. Hope you stay.

If you would like a little insight into what was going on down on Sage St. before you were born, check out page 62 where Juker tells what he saw...

Hopefully this link works.
Rick Ross

Please read it and tell me what you think.

Thanks,
KCJones

You wanna know what I think?

I think I was raised in a cult. That's all for now. I have soul-searching to do.

Hold your fire Testy!
Lets give the man some breathing room and do a little soul searching. Sometimes it has to come from someone on the inside...

Radaph, brother I will wait for your reply. You are welcome to contact me via Private Message if you want to talk bounce thoughts of.

kcjones.

To KC:

Can do,

but if he blinks,

I won't.

To radaph:

Why do you think you were raised in a cult?



Truthtesty

Just so you know, nothing you have said has swayed me in the least.

I am changing my stance, but it is only because of the ones who have discussed Thieme's ministry in an objective way. They do not hate him. They simply see his ministry for what it is. Hate is not a Christian attitude, no matter how justified you might think you are.

Quote
kcjones

Quote
radaph

Quote
kcjones
Well shoot welcome to 'wrestlin' match. Hope you stay.

If you would like a little insight into what was going on down on Sage St. before you were born, check out page 62 where Juker tells what he saw...

Hopefully this link works.
Rick Ross

Please read it and tell me what you think.

Thanks,
KCJones

You wanna know what I think?

I think I was raised in a cult. That's all for now. I have soul-searching to do.

Hold your fire Testy!
Lets give the man some breathing room and do a little soul searching. Sometimes it has to come from someone on the inside...

Radaph, brother I will wait for your reply. You are welcome to contact me via Private Message if you want to talk bounce thoughts of.

kcjones.

Well, I took your advice and read what Juker had said earlier in this thread. And I guess that is what did it for me.
Because he mentioned so many details that I had either forgotten or never even payed attention to.

For example:
My parents drove nothing but Fleetwood Cadillacs for at least 20 years of my life.
I had never made the connection that they were immitating the colonel.

I remember singing a song in "Prep School" called "God Loves His Goodness."
That song was sung to the tune of "Jesus Loves me this I know."
But they changed the words, because Heaven forbid that we teach children that Jesus loves them. Even though you only have to look as far as John 3:16 to discover that yes, Jesus does love you (even the unbelievers), and the bible does tell us so, just as the old song says.

I mean, there were a few other things. But this just started me to thinking about my past, and why I am who I am today, and whether it is really who I want to be.

For example, I married a beautiful young woman (she's 30 and I'm 29). And whenever we were in the dating phase and keeping things somewhat superficial as far as our beliefs were concerned, we got along famously. But when I found out she spoke in tongues, I almost dumped her on the spot. And I have done a lot of studying about tongues since I met her. And when I say "study" I don't mean I read the Col's book on tongues. I mean I read the bible for myself, mainly in 1Corinthians where it talks about the proper use of spiritual gifts, including tongues.

I could not (no matter how hard I tried) prove to myself with the bible alone, that tongues was an illegitimate spiritual gift to be used in this dispensation. The Col had always taught that there was a dispensational division that happened when the full canon of scripture was completed. This started a new mini-dispensation. So instead of just having "the church age," Thieme taught you have the "pre-canon church age" and the "post-canon church age." And in the post-canon church, the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge were ceased to be given anymore by the Holy Spirit.

Thieme taught that those particular spiritual gifts were given to the early church, because it was in it's infancy and they sort of jump-started the church. But when it was up and running, they were no longer needed, so they were taken back. Now I am paraphrasing, but that is the gist of it.

He mainly based this idea on 1Corinthians 13:8-10

1Co 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.


His main point was that "the perfect" mentioned in verse 10 is referring to the completed canon of scripture, and not Jesus Christ in his second coming (a future event as of yet.)

He went to the Greek to prove this. The noun for "the perfect" used in Greek is supposedly a neuter-genger noun. And according to Thieme Jesus is never referred to in the neuter-gender. So that must mean this verse is talking about the bible, not Jesus.

Well, I disagree with that assertion. Jesus is called "the word" in a verse in the bible, and that is a neuter-gender noun. Just as in that example "the perfect" is referring to one aspect of Christ's nature, and that aspect is neuter-gender. If I say that Wayne (that's me) is a rock, that might be referring to my stability in the midst of turmoil, and "rock" wouldn't be masculine. Even though it is a noun, it is being used as an adjective.

Anyway, long story short.


I am at work right now, and I need to get busy....

More to come later today.

continued.....

Anyway, the weird thing is that even though the bible was telling me that tongues was a perfectly legitimate spiritual gift, and one that is important to the unity of the church.

However, I still had almost a negative attitude toward my fiance' because she used that gift. Even though she was very sensitive to my dilema and never even used the gift around me, so as not to make me uncomfortable.

But this is just an example to me, that even though I have seen with my own to eyes that the bible teaches contrary to what Bob Thieme taught me, I still am giving deference to Thieme, over the bible.



Ok, I really have to get to work now.


I want to finish this thought, but I don't have time right now.



more to come later......