Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 09, 2008 05:50PM
April 08, 2008 08:54PMsistersoap
Date Added: 03/13/2006
TP RADAPH:
Hi,
I posted a reply to you earlier today but the site acted like I had not even signed in even after two tries to sign in so I guess it was lost. I hate it when that happens.
To Sister and forum:
I have run into this problem before. I often "copy and paste" and save posts(especially lengthy ones) into a Microsoft Word file. That way if it does get lost, I still have a copy. Just takes an few seconds.
Testy
Date Added: 03/13/2006
TP RADAPH:
Hi,
I posted a reply to you earlier today but the site acted like I had not even signed in even after two tries to sign in so I guess it was lost. I hate it when that happens.
To Sister and forum:
I have run into this problem before. I often "copy and paste" and save posts(especially lengthy ones) into a Microsoft Word file. That way if it does get lost, I still have a copy. Just takes an few seconds.
Testy
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
radaph
()
Date: April 09, 2008 08:45PM
I can't say much on this issue. I know that hasn't been my experience though. I've never felt I wanted to change any church or divide it because it didn't teach Col Thieme's doctrines. I would simply just leave and try another church. Because we were taught not to question a pastor, or second-guess him. But to find our "right-pastor" and submit to his authority. But I can't speak for anyone but me.Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
I am not really interested in looking at a Thiemite forum. When I said there weren't any, I didn't really mean it literally. I just meant that the thiemites are not some organized group, they are just a bunch of people all over the world who follow thieme. But for the most part, they do so individually.
COMMENT:
Thanks for explaining. I can only go by what people actually say here. I thought maybe you really wanted to explore such a site. I don't go there much anymore. It is VERY depressing. I do check now and then to make sure they are still there so when I send people they will actually find what I sent them there for.
For an 'unorganized group' "Thiemeites" manage to affect a lot of people. With the growth of other "doctrinal churches"modeled after Thieme's ministry and many taper home groups they are often more than just a bunch of indicviduals. They do affect churches, dividing them and peeling members off because what they are hearing does not "measure up" to the "colonel's" teaching. But I know what you mean. Thieme is not now and never was heading up a denominational set up, but he did set things in motion for a genuine "movement" for that is what it is now, like it or not.
Quote
sistersoap
THEN YOU SAID:
But I don't care to make any more arguments for the defense.
I do think I learned some valuable things about God's word from Berachah. For those I am thankful. But I also think I learned a lot of lies, and I am going to have to un-learn and re-learn a lot of things.
COMMENT:
I don't think any former follower of Thieme has ever said on this forum that EVERYTHING Thieme said was wrong or bad. Far from it. My personal opinion is that he accurately identified the dearth of the Word of God in our churches and he set out to remedy that situation in his local baliwick. That is admirable and helpful. As far as I can see, for a while he was going along swimmingly at least as far as actual teaching in the Basic series, early version.
In fact the MIXTURE of truth and error is always deadlier than pure lies alone. I think you will have no trouble seeing that. It makes it harder to leave and easier for new people to get into the group.
You are correct about unlearning and learning. But it is a wonderfully freeing thing to do in the long run, especially if you and your wife are agreed about this process. You can leave a group, but what is in your head and heart takes longer to identify and grow out of. You don't just command the lies to leave. And having been raised in Prep school probably sunk those lies more deeply into your heart than coming to Thieme as an adult.
That's what I am concerned about. I don't even really know how deep some of the lies go. But they still affect how I think and deal with life, marriage, etc.
Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
I talked with my father about this a few days ago, and to my surprise, he mostly agreed with me. The difference is he was able to discern the good from the bad about Thieme's teachings, and put the bad in his "spiritual garbage can" as he called it. But the difference between him and I is that he grew up in a baptist church and attended there until he was 22, then when he and my mom got married, they went to her church, where the pastor was definitely influenced by Thieme, but he wasnt' a clone. His church was a family, and had many other aspects that Berachah lacked. And my dad didn't start attending Berachah until he was almost 30.
COMMENTS:
GREAT OBSERVATIONS!
The reason you don't have to throw away the baby with the bath water so to speak, is that SOME of the things Thieme taught really are in the Bible. But almost none of his "how to live the Christian life" and this is your soul on the inside stuff is just that---STUFF. Sorting it out is not easy because in this case the POWERFUL CONTROLS built in to the teaching are VERY SUBTLE. This is not your ordinary coercive cult type controls, they are INTERNAL and inherent in the teachings. We were manipulated by FEAR AND GUILT and drawn forward and kept within the system by a BAIT AND SWITCH technique. Listen to more tapes learn more Bible Doctrine apply this that and the other" and you will MATURE and have DYING GRACE etc etc! This is the same effect that might happen under some standard Baptist teachings about IN AND OUT OF FELLOWSHIP, but Thieme's system had lots more bells and whistles and sunk deeply into his listeners for there were constant OVERT THREATS about terrible things would happen if you didn't get with the program. Or (shudder) if you should LEAVE or stop believing what you were taught. And by the way, don't tell anyone anything bad about what you have seen or heard here....that is maligning and GOD WILL GET YOU WITH TRIPLE COMPOUND DIVINE DISCIPLINE....just another of the many threats built into the system. I bet no Baptist church preaches that, but it is because they did not think of it!
I am really glad you have been talking with your Dad and that he can distinguish good from bad. For me the acid test has been CAN I RELAX NOW THAT I AM NOT LISTENING TO THIEME TAPES ANY MORE? Can I tell the truth about all this when appropriate and not fear God will clobber me? I wonder if your Dad still listens to RBT tapes any more?
As far as I know he doesn't really listen to any RBT tapes anymore. He supposedly still attends Berachah, but when my wife and I go to church on Sunday mornings, we drive by their house, and both cars are still in the driveway. He isn't a faithful Berachah-goer. He does listen to a couple of other pastors who were ordained by the Col.
Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
But I grew up in Berachah, and as a child, I didn't question anything I was taught. I just believed. That's where the phrase "faith like a child" comes from. Children will believe almost anything. And I did.
COMMENT:
GOOD THOUGHT. Very true. And that is sad, because children's teaching ought to be THE MOST ACCURATE, THE BEST, MOST INTERESTING that is around any church.
And a lot of creative abilities go into "Prep School" it is just so full of baloney! Your recollections about that teaching you had as a child would be most enlightening to hear if you care to share it some time. Not everyone was harmed or even offended by these things, but a lot of walking wounded are around thinking they are just fine when their limp shows to everyone else. THEY can't see it, however.
I don't remember most of what I learned there, because it's been about 20 years ago. But honestly it wasn't so different than what Thieme taught. It was more basic, because it was geared for kids. But it was the same information the adults got. I remember being taught about the top circle and bottom circle, about God's divine essense. About +R, and so on.
It's funny, yesterday I was at work and the tune popped in my head from the movie "the sound of music" and I think it is the Austrian national anthem. (Although I just looked on Wiki and found out that is a common misconception, and the song was actually written by Rogers and Hammerstein for the movie). It was called Edelweiss. Really pretty song.
Anyway, as I was singing that song, I started recalling a song we sang at Berachah to that same tune. The Col. had apparently been a fan of that song as well, so he had decided to re-write it with "doctrinal" lyrics.
The only words I can recall from the Col's rendition are these: "millions of souls who have grown in grace, stabilize the nation...."
An obvious reference to his "Pivot" doctrine.
Anyway, I thought that was interesting. There are a lot of little gems like that tucked away in my memory banks, and triggered by various things. I wonder how many different ways they affect the way I think.
Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
Because of that, I have certain spiritual disabilities, that hopefully I will eventually be able to overcome. The main one is that I have much trouble thinking of God as my father. I view him more as a 5 star general. The king of the universe sitting on His glorious throne, and completely unapproachable for the likes of me. I know from scripture that this is not true. I know that I can come "boldly before the throne." But knowing those things, and having faith in them are two different things. The later is what I am struggling with
COMMENT:
That is a good way of looking at things. It IS a spiritually disabling what you have been through, especially because you grew up there. There are a lot of negative messages that are lodged in your mind that you may not even be aware of that will take a lot of working out. As you learn truth and replace lies with Bible truth things will get better. Be kind to yourself be patient seek the help you need, and KEEP LOOKING AND ASKING FOR HELP until you find what you need, and only you can be the best judge of that. You and your wife together have a wonderful journey ahead of you! You have been SPIRITUALLY ABUSED by lies. This is not exclusive to Thieme, but few have the kind of influence and control over his listeners that Thieme has because of the prescriptions of DAILY LISTENING and the threats of DIVINE DISCIPLINE including the SIN UNTO DEATH for various non Biblical infractions which intensified his control. It almost does not matter if this was by design or it just happened. The effect on US remains the same.
Keep us posted, OK?
I am so thankful for the good beginning you have made!
Sis
Me too! I think it has already saved my marriage, and opened my eyes. My wife has more respect for me now than ever. It's hard though. I told her, that it's so hard for me becuase the one thing about me that I was really proud of, and confident about (my knowledge of the word of God) is now something I am not confident about anymore, and the "truthes" that I was proud of all my life (thinking I had some secret knowledge that no other Christian's posessed) now I am ashamed of. So this has hurt my self-confidence. But I must approach this from humility. I am only 29 years old. Some people don't even get saved by that age. So for me to be starting over at that age is not the end of the world. She is a wonderful help to me, and I am ready to begin the journey.
I want to read the entire bible, for starters. Does anyone know a good plan for doing this? Is just reading it in the order it is written the best choice. I know some of the books are not in chronological order, but does that matter? Any links about this, you could post?
Thanks!
for Christ,
Wayne
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 10, 2008 02:59AM
Quote
...sistersoap,
Go to the link and scroll down a little until you see on the left:
"All the books! 64 in all. Literal, Grammatical, Historical, Etymological, Contextual, Exegetical, Hermeneutical interpretation of The Word! In rich text format "
This is a link....click on it and you will see the list of books. They can be downloaded.
Good luck,
Truthlover[/quote
Hi Truthlover,
Thanks I found the links. Very useful. Wish I had room on my hard drive for them all.
This will be so helpful in the process of defending truth and exposing error. I do hope that eventually all his printed works will be available online. It would cut down trememdously on printing costs to their ministry. BUT print is still an important resource too. One does not need electricity to read it.
Sis
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 10, 2008 03:02AM
HI TESTY,
I sheepishly relearn that lesson about copying and pasting posts before actually posting them periodically.
Sis
I sheepishly relearn that lesson about copying and pasting posts before actually posting them periodically.
Sis
re; books
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: April 10, 2008 11:23AM
sistersoap,
If you go to the 4shared file link (same as the one on page 116 of this forum), there is a pdf file (scroll down on the list) called ThiemeJrBooks.pdf
I have converted all the books at the mustseethisone site, into pdf. With contents page at the beginning.
The useful thing about this, is that you can type in a word into the Acrobat Reader search item, and it scans for that word in all Thieme books.
e.g. try "brainwash", and see how many hits you get.
Changing the subject for the moment (sorry - I won't do this again!).
In regard to the fear issue, which some have discussed in this thread:-
You can read many articles through google search concerning the creation and application of
1. an internal fear 2. an immediate environmental fear/threat 3. an outside fear/threat.
And how the presence and combination of these in an abusive group, can affect members psychologically.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2008 11:28AM by orangeperuviscacha.
If you go to the 4shared file link (same as the one on page 116 of this forum), there is a pdf file (scroll down on the list) called ThiemeJrBooks.pdf
I have converted all the books at the mustseethisone site, into pdf. With contents page at the beginning.
The useful thing about this, is that you can type in a word into the Acrobat Reader search item, and it scans for that word in all Thieme books.
e.g. try "brainwash", and see how many hits you get.
Changing the subject for the moment (sorry - I won't do this again!).
In regard to the fear issue, which some have discussed in this thread:-
You can read many articles through google search concerning the creation and application of
1. an internal fear 2. an immediate environmental fear/threat 3. an outside fear/threat.
And how the presence and combination of these in an abusive group, can affect members psychologically.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2008 11:28AM by orangeperuviscacha.
Re: re; books
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 10, 2008 12:00PM
Quote
orangeperuviscacha
sistersoap,
If you go to the 4shared file link (same as the one on page 116 of this forum), there is a pdf file (scroll down on the list) called ThiemeJrBooks.pdf
I have converted all the books at the mustseethisone site, into pdf. With contents page at the beginning.
The useful thing about this, is that you can type in a word into the Acrobat Reader search item, and it scans for that word in all Thieme books.
e.g. try "brainwash", and see how many hits you get.
Changing the subject for the moment (sorry - I won't do this again!).
In regard to the fear issue, which some have discussed in this thread:-
You can read many articles through google search concerning the creation and application of
1. an internal fear 2. an immediate environmental fear/threat 3. an outside fear/threat.
And how the presence and combination of these in an abusive group, can affect members psychologically.
HI ORANGE,
I found the files but did not notice the search feature. I do have an old version of Acrobat. I wiil try it.
Thanks so much for the hint on fear! All of us deal with this, because Thieme was expert in instilling it in us through his version of what the Bible said and what it meant by what it said.
As I have said before, HOW DID THE HOLY SPIRIT MANAGE WITHOUT HIM for so many centuries?
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
I received my copy of Hunt's book today. Great investment for those of us with interest in Thieme. I am glad I ordered it.
Thanks again for the research hints!
Sis
Re: re; books
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 10, 2008 06:22PM
April 09, 2008 09:23PMorangeperuviscacha
Date Added: 12/01/2005
Posts: 76 re; bookssistersoap,
If you go to the 4shared file link (same as the one on page 116 of this forum), there is a pdf file (scroll down on the list) called ThiemeJrBooks.pdf
I have converted all the books at the mustseethisone site, into pdf. With contents page at the beginning.
The useful thing about this, is that you can type in a word into the Acrobat Reader search item, and it scans for that word in all Thieme books.
e.g. try "brainwash", and see how many hits you get.
Thanks Orange
Truthtesty
Date Added: 12/01/2005
Posts: 76 re; bookssistersoap,
If you go to the 4shared file link (same as the one on page 116 of this forum), there is a pdf file (scroll down on the list) called ThiemeJrBooks.pdf
I have converted all the books at the mustseethisone site, into pdf. With contents page at the beginning.
The useful thing about this, is that you can type in a word into the Acrobat Reader search item, and it scans for that word in all Thieme books.
e.g. try "brainwash", and see how many hits you get.
Thanks Orange
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 11, 2008 11:25AM
Quote
radaphI can't say much on this issue. I know that hasn't been my experience though. I've never felt I wanted to change any church or divide it because it didn't teach Col Thieme's doctrines. I would simply just leave and try another church. Because we were taught not to question a pastor, or second-guess him. But to find our "right-pastor" and submit to his authority. But I can't speak for anyone but me.Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
I am not really interested in looking at a Thiemite forum. When I said there weren't any, I didn't really mean it literally. I just meant that the thiemites are not some organized group, they are just a bunch of people all over the world who follow thieme. But for the most part, they do so individually.
COMMENT:
Thanks for explaining. I can only go by what people actually say here. I thought maybe you really wanted to explore such a site. I don't go there much anymore. It is VERY depressing. I do check now and then to make sure they are still there so when I send people they will actually find what I sent them there for.
For an 'unorganized group' "Thiemeites" manage to affect a lot of people. With the growth of other "doctrinal churches"modeled after Thieme's ministry and many taper home groups they are often more than just a bunch of indicviduals. They do affect churches, dividing them and peeling members off because what they are hearing does not "measure up" to the "colonel's" teaching. But I know what you mean. Thieme is not now and never was heading up a denominational set up, but he did set things in motion for a genuine "movement" for that is what it is now, like it or not.Quote
sistersoap
THEN YOU SAID:
But I don't care to make any more arguments for the defense.
I do think I learned some valuable things about God's word from Berachah. For those I am thankful. But I also think I learned a lot of lies, and I am going to have to un-learn and re-learn a lot of things.
COMMENT:
I don't think any former follower of Thieme has ever said on this forum that EVERYTHING Thieme said was wrong or bad. Far from it. My personal opinion is that he accurately identified the dearth of the Word of God in our churches and he set out to remedy that situation in his local baliwick. That is admirable and helpful. As far as I can see, for a while he was going along swimmingly at least as far as actual teaching in the Basic series, early version.
In fact the MIXTURE of truth and error is always deadlier than pure lies alone. I think you will have no trouble seeing that. It makes it harder to leave and easier for new people to get into the group.
You are correct about unlearning and learning. But it is a wonderfully freeing thing to do in the long run, especially if you and your wife are agreed about this process. You can leave a group, but what is in your head and heart takes longer to identify and grow out of. You don't just command the lies to leave. And having been raised in Prep school probably sunk those lies more deeply into your heart than coming to Thieme as an adult.
That's what I am concerned about. I don't even really know how deep some of the lies go. But they still affect how I think and deal with life, marriage, etc.Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
I talked with my father about this a few days ago, and to my surprise, he mostly agreed with me. The difference is he was able to discern the good from the bad about Thieme's teachings, and put the bad in his "spiritual garbage can" as he called it. But the difference between him and I is that he grew up in a baptist church and attended there until he was 22, then when he and my mom got married, they went to her church, where the pastor was definitely influenced by Thieme, but he wasnt' a clone. His church was a family, and had many other aspects that Berachah lacked. And my dad didn't start attending Berachah until he was almost 30.
COMMENTS:
GREAT OBSERVATIONS!
The reason you don't have to throw away the baby with the bath water so to speak, is that SOME of the things Thieme taught really are in the Bible. But almost none of his "how to live the Christian life" and this is your soul on the inside stuff is just that---STUFF. Sorting it out is not easy because in this case the POWERFUL CONTROLS built in to the teaching are VERY SUBTLE. This is not your ordinary coercive cult type controls, they are INTERNAL and inherent in the teachings. We were manipulated by FEAR AND GUILT and drawn forward and kept within the system by a BAIT AND SWITCH technique. Listen to more tapes learn more Bible Doctrine apply this that and the other" and you will MATURE and have DYING GRACE etc etc! This is the same effect that might happen under some standard Baptist teachings about IN AND OUT OF FELLOWSHIP, but Thieme's system had lots more bells and whistles and sunk deeply into his listeners for there were constant OVERT THREATS about terrible things would happen if you didn't get with the program. Or (shudder) if you should LEAVE or stop believing what you were taught. And by the way, don't tell anyone anything bad about what you have seen or heard here....that is maligning and GOD WILL GET YOU WITH TRIPLE COMPOUND DIVINE DISCIPLINE....just another of the many threats built into the system. I bet no Baptist church preaches that, but it is because they did not think of it!
I am really glad you have been talking with your Dad and that he can distinguish good from bad. For me the acid test has been CAN I RELAX NOW THAT I AM NOT LISTENING TO THIEME TAPES ANY MORE? Can I tell the truth about all this when appropriate and not fear God will clobber me? I wonder if your Dad still listens to RBT tapes any more?
As far as I know he doesn't really listen to any RBT tapes anymore. He supposedly still attends Berachah, but when my wife and I go to church on Sunday mornings, we drive by their house, and both cars are still in the driveway. He isn't a faithful Berachah-goer. He does listen to a couple of other pastors who were ordained by the Col.Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
But I grew up in Berachah, and as a child, I didn't question anything I was taught. I just believed. That's where the phrase "faith like a child" comes from. Children will believe almost anything. And I did.
COMMENT:
GOOD THOUGHT. Very true. And that is sad, because children's teaching ought to be THE MOST ACCURATE, THE BEST, MOST INTERESTING that is around any church.
And a lot of creative abilities go into "Prep School" it is just so full of baloney! Your recollections about that teaching you had as a child would be most enlightening to hear if you care to share it some time. Not everyone was harmed or even offended by these things, but a lot of walking wounded are around thinking they are just fine when their limp shows to everyone else. THEY can't see it, however.
I don't remember most of what I learned there, because it's been about 20 years ago. But honestly it wasn't so different than what Thieme taught. It was more basic, because it was geared for kids. But it was the same information the adults got. I remember being taught about the top circle and bottom circle, about God's divine essense. About +R, and so on.
It's funny, yesterday I was at work and the tune popped in my head from the movie "the sound of music" and I think it is the Austrian national anthem. (Although I just looked on Wiki and found out that is a common misconception, and the song was actually written by Rogers and Hammerstein for the movie). It was called Edelweiss. Really pretty song.
Anyway, as I was singing that song, I started recalling a song we sang at Berachah to that same tune. The Col. had apparently been a fan of that song as well, so he had decided to re-write it with "doctrinal" lyrics.
The only words I can recall from the Col's rendition are these: "millions of souls who have grown in grace, stabilize the nation...."
An obvious reference to his "Pivot" doctrine.
Anyway, I thought that was interesting. There are a lot of little gems like that tucked away in my memory banks, and triggered by various things. I wonder how many different ways they affect the way I think.Quote
sistersoap
YOU SAID:
Because of that, I have certain spiritual disabilities, that hopefully I will eventually be able to overcome. The main one is that I have much trouble thinking of God as my father. I view him more as a 5 star general. The king of the universe sitting on His glorious throne, and completely unapproachable for the likes of me. I know from scripture that this is not true. I know that I can come "boldly before the throne." But knowing those things, and having faith in them are two different things. The later is what I am struggling with
COMMENT:
That is a good way of looking at things. It IS a spiritually disabling what you have been through, especially because you grew up there. There are a lot of negative messages that are lodged in your mind that you may not even be aware of that will take a lot of working out. As you learn truth and replace lies with Bible truth things will get better. Be kind to yourself be patient seek the help you need, and KEEP LOOKING AND ASKING FOR HELP until you find what you need, and only you can be the best judge of that. You and your wife together have a wonderful journey ahead of you! You have been SPIRITUALLY ABUSED by lies. This is not exclusive to Thieme, but few have the kind of influence and control over his listeners that Thieme has because of the prescriptions of DAILY LISTENING and the threats of DIVINE DISCIPLINE including the SIN UNTO DEATH for various non Biblical infractions which intensified his control. It almost does not matter if this was by design or it just happened. The effect on US remains the same.
Keep us posted, OK?
I am so thankful for the good beginning you have made!
Sis
Me too! I think it has already saved my marriage, and opened my eyes. My wife has more respect for me now than ever. It's hard though. I told her, that it's so hard for me becuase the one thing about me that I was really proud of, and confident about (my knowledge of the word of God) is now something I am not confident about anymore, and the "truthes" that I was proud of all my life (thinking I had some secret knowledge that no other Christian's posessed) now I am ashamed of. So this has hurt my self-confidence. But I must approach this from humility. I am only 29 years old. Some people don't even get saved by that age. So for me to be starting over at that age is not the end of the world. She is a wonderful help to me, and I am ready to begin the journey.
I want to read the entire bible, for starters. Does anyone know a good plan for doing this? Is just reading it in the order it is written the best choice. I know some of the books are not in chronological order, but does that matter? Any links about this, you could post?
Thanks!
for Christ,
Wayne
Hi Wayne,
My reply to your above post:
YOU SAID:
I can't say much on this issue. I know that hasn't been my experience though. I've never felt I wanted to change any church or divide it because it didn't teach Col Thieme's doctrines. I would simply just leave and try another church. Because we were taught not to question a pastor, or second-guess him. But to find our "right-pastor" and submit to his authority. But I can't speak for anyone but me.
REPLY:
Yes what you say is true in many cases. The key to your situation is the last two sentences you wrote above. The teaching is at fault, it is not Biblical, and in fact is exactly the opposite of the truth. You are free in Christ to attend any church, listen to any teacher within your reach and to challenge teaching on Scriptural grounds at any time, with respect. How many "right pastors" can one have in a lifetime? I was not prepared to leave for any other teacher until I simply could not function any longer as a human being. I had no idea at the time that Thieme's teachings had anything to do with my problems,but they certainly did! God was merciful and brought truth to me in little bits as I was able to tolerate it. Some of it was from Christian radio. Some of it was in a home Bible study. Be open to God's leading for you. What He does for you may be very different from what He has done for others. It sounds like you are teachable now and that is one of the hardest things for a Thieme believer to become: to shed that inculcated pride in intellectually exclusive "knowledge." God says knowledge puffeth up, but love edifies! Amazingly simple, isn't it?
YOU SAID (REGARDING THE LIES DEEPLY LODGED IN YOUR MIND):
That's what I am concerned about. I don't even really know how deep some of the lies go. But they still affect how I think and deal with life, marriage, etc.
REPLY:
Yes, you are correct! I am learning that God knows how to "gently surface" these things so that they can be dealt with. He will be faithful to guide and teach you. At some point, you will probably want to find a pastor or other professional to talk to about all this. PM kcjones on this forum about this. He knows someone in Houston.
YOU SAID: (RE YOUR DAD AND THIEME TAPES AND TEACHING):
As far as I know he doesn't really listen to any RBT tapes anymore. He supposedly still attends Berachah, but when my wife and I go to church on Sunday mornings, we drive by their house, and both cars are still in the driveway. He isn't a faithful Berachah-goer. He does listen to a couple of other pastors who were ordained by the Col.
REPLY:
It sounds like he is making his break from Berachah too. That is good. There is no one in my family who is aware of my past with this teaching or that it was a problem. As long as he is still listening to Thieme sourced preachers he is still snared. But you keep talking to him! Share your journey as much as you feel free to do.
YOU SAID: (RE YOUR YEARS IN BERACHAH PREP SCHOOL):
I don't remember most of what I learned there, because it's been about 20 years ago. But honestly it wasn't so different than what Thieme taught. It was more basic, because it was geared for kids. But it was the same information the adults got. I remember being taught about the top circle and bottom circle, about God's divine essense. About +R, and so on.
It's funny, yesterday I was at work and the tune popped in my head from the movie "the sound of music" and I think it is the Austrian national anthem. (Although I just looked on Wiki and found out that is a common misconception, and the song was actually written by Rogers and Hammerstein for the movie). It was called Edelweiss. Really pretty song. Anyway, as I was singing that song, I started recalling a song we sang at Berachah to that same tune.
REPLY:
Yes I recall him saying the same thing about that song, though I never heard his words to it.
YOU SAID:
The Col. had apparently been a fan of that song as well, so he had decided to re-write it with "doctrinal" lyrics.
The only words I can recall from the Col's rendition are these: "millions of souls who have grown in grace, stabilize the nation...."
An obvious reference to his "Pivot" doctrine.
Anyway, I thought that was interesting. There are a lot of little gems like that tucked away in my memory banks, and triggered by various things. I wonder how many different ways they affect the way I think.
REPLY:
Yes I have had that sort of experience, too. Words more than anything else trigger memories of Thieme teachings for me. The messages about who you are and what God is really like are mostly negative from Thieme, and you get all the blame for all your problems. This experience is not unusual for people coming out of abusive, cultic churches or other type group. Research on recovering from cults might give you more understanding.
YOU SAID: (RE SPIRITUAL DISABILITIES RELATED TO HISTORY AT BERACHAH):
I have much trouble thinking of God as my father. I view him more as a 5 star general. The king of the universe sitting on His glorious throne, and completely unapproachable for the likes of me. I know from scripture that this is not true. I know that I can come "boldly before the throne." But knowing those things, and having faith in them are two different things. The later is what I am struggling with
REPLY:
And God knows that, too. He is working on your behalf for your recovery of your mind and thinking processes, and He will heal you a bit at a time. For me the first really big "breakthrough" if you will excuse the term was the subject of FORGIVENESS. I learned slowly that the Cross was God's final judgment on sin, and on sins, and that He forgave me at that same Cross, not bit by bit as I confess to Him after salvation. That is no different than having to do animal sacrifices in the Old Testament! You never know if you have confessed enough, or sincerely enough, though sincerity was not an issue with Thieme. It did not count. Well, God is not waiting for you to confess your sins to Him as His child before forgiving you and I can prove it from scripture! Since this is true, all Thieme's intricate systems fall like a house of cards, and his threats lose their power. As a Christian you are a FORGIVEN PERSON.
YOU SAID:
...it's so hard for me becuase the one thing about me that I was really proud of, and confident about (my knowledge of the word of God) is now something I am not confident about anymore, and the "truthes" that I was proud of all my life (thinking I had some secret knowledge that no other Christian's posessed) now I am ashamed of. So this has hurt my self-confidence. But I must approach this from humility. I am only 29 years old. Some people don't even get saved by that age. So for me to be starting over at that age is not the end of the world. She is a wonderful help to me, and I am ready to begin the journey.
REPLY:
Amen! You demonstrate humility in admitting that you believed a lot that was erroneous. Your young age (I am sixty) gives you a great deal of time to learn truth, and you will find that along the way people will cross your path who need to hear your testimony, both ordinary people, and pastors, too. Truth is much more exciting than Thieme's errors. It is thrilling to hear of the accord between you and your wife. It is a great testimony to the power of the truth even if it is painful. And it is painful to "lose" so much time and energy invested in Thieme's teachings. But the apostle Paul went through the same thing, and he dumped his "degree" from the Pharisees education he had received in the garbage (a polite term) in order to GAIN CHRIST. God used him mightily but he had to go through some deep valleys on the way.
YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO START READING THE BIBLE IN ITS ENTIRETY:
That is very encouraging to hear of your appetite for Scripture itself. Many former Thiemers including myself find it hard to just sit down and open their Bibles and READ. God sneaked in bits and pieces of His Word in books and magazines I was reading anyway, and those were sweet and refreshing, and this encouraged me to eventually read for myself. Last year, 2007, I read the entire New Testament for the very first time in my life! At sixty years old. I was saved in high school......Thieme's teaching style atomized Scripture and robbed it of its context so your desire to read it for yourself is an excellent of spiritual health.
There are many plans for Bible reading. I expect if you use a search engine and enter something like Bible reading plans you will come up with many ideas. It depends on how much time you can spend at a sitting on it. I have found it very helpful to read and reread a book rapidly, and listen to it on tape or CD or whatever. Or online!
Keep plugging. You have made the MOST DIFFICULT first step toward liberty in Christ. That is what you are pursuing: your freedom in Christ and genuine grace. God's love to you is PERSONAL unlike Thieme's description of "impersonal love" of a far off God who is not appeased by all your efforts to progress to "maturity" du jour (until the next "level" is revealed to RBT in his studies). Thieme used the word grace a lot, but the trend of the system was anything but. It is legalistic to the core because it demands YOU study, YOU learn, YOU APPLY this that or the other technique, doctrine, principle. It obscures the PERSONAL GOD AND HIS CHRIST totally and lets the flesh go wild unrecognized and unrestrained.
Now, lest I be rebuked for "preaching" by a moderator, I will give you time to read and reflect and for others to comment. I am rejoicing for you and your wife.
In Christ and in Him alone,
Sis
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: April 13, 2008 04:40AM
Here's a new link to Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation from Dallas Theological Seminary
[www.texaswalls.org]
Also, here's East West Ministries site and missionary statement
[www.texaswalls.org]
[www.texaswalls.org]
Also, here's East West Ministries site and missionary statement
[www.texaswalls.org]
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: April 15, 2008 09:34AM
TO THE FORUM:
Here is an interesting list of questions to ask about spiritual abuse in any group of concern to you or a loved one:
Spiritual Abuse Questionnaire
Questions To Help Identify Specific Areas of Spiritual Abuse, Deception, and Fraud
by Chris Lawson
[www.spiritual-research-network.com]
The following list of questions is to help you, the reader, think through a number of things that perhaps you have never seriously considered on your own before.
As you read the questions, circle either YES or NO. When you reach the end, go back through the list and prayerfully consider the questions that you have answered YES to.
Answering YES to any of the following questions may be an indication of an unhealthy problem in your group or with your leaders.
Answering YES to more than just a few questions is a definite cause for alarm. If this is the case, it is recommended that you take a much closer look into your group’s or organization’s history, purpose, and goals. Observe closely the methods, activities, and lives of the leaders. Are they using abusive and manipulative tactics on people?
If you believe that you are being abused in any way, it is highly recommended that you seek immediate help from balanced individuals and relatives who are outside of the influence of your group and its leaders.
Remember, you have the freedom to make your own choices and to be free from controlling and manipulative people. Controlling, abusive, and manipulating people will only mock, chastise and attempt to control you even more when their ploys, methods and artful ways of controlling others have been exposed.
Lastly, if you are suffering physical harm in any way or are involved against your conscience in any activity, you have the freedom to call emergency personnel by dialing 911.
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR CHURCH OR GROUP’S LEADERS
Are you in any way fearful of your leader(s)?
YES / NO
Does your church or group revolve around one main charismatic personality who is the final arbiter of “truth”?
YES / NO
Do your leaders make claims of being “Anointed,” having “Elijah’s Mantle,” having “Apostolic Authority,” etc?
YES / NO
Does the main leader, or the leaders in your church or group ALWAYS insist that they are right?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to freely ask questions about the background of your leader(s) and your group without being looked down upon or being considered ‘divisive’?
YES / NO
Would you be ‘rebuked’ by your leader(s) if you researched the background and history of the group and its leader(s)?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to freely discuss teachings, prophecies, or so-called new revelations that your groups leader(s) have stated in the past or present?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to ask your leader(s) questions regarding their background in ministry, education, teaching, policies, etc.?
YES / NO
Are your leaders above reproach (without blame) in morals, ethics, teaching and financial issues?
YES / NO
Do any of your leaders have a criminal record?
YES / NO
Would your leader(s) freely allow you to research their background in order to find out if they have any criminal record?
YES / NO
Has anyone in your group ever tried to persuade you to NOT research the personal background of the leaders?
YES / NO
When issues are brought up about abusive situations, do your leaders say, “You just need to have more faith!”, or “You are being disloyal to leadership!”?
YES / NO
Can ordinary people/members in your group easily get in touch with the leaders?
YES / NO
Are your leaders aloof, unapproachable, unkind or harsh in any way to any of the people in your group?
YES / NO
Are your leaders amongst an “elite” class within your group?
YES / NO
Have your leaders ever told you or taught you that they are the only ones that can “rightly interpret” the Scriptures (Holy Bible)?
YES / NO
Do your leaders teach that your “church” or “movement” or “group” is the Only True Church?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP AND ITS TEACHINGS
Do you feel that your group twists and misapplies Bible verses?
YES / NO
Are you told what you will believe?
YES / NO
Are you guided through the Bible and at the same time encouraged to study the Scriptures on your own, apart from your group’s own materials?
YES / NO
Do your leaders claim “New Revelations,” or special “Words from God?”
YES / NO
Do your leaders gladly provide you and your group with a written “Statement of Beliefs”, or, “Statement of Faith”?
YES / NO
Is it difficult to get a straight answer from the group’s leader(s) on the group’s teachings?
YES / NO
Is your group ‘secretive’ about any of its teachings, practices or meetings?
YES / NO
Does your group take ‘oaths’ or have you commit to unrealistic expectations?
YES / NO
Are your leaders ever “harsh” in tone with you or do you ever feel like an animal that is “driven hard”?
YES / NO
Have you been taught, told or commanded NOT to share any of your group’s teachings, doctrines or practices with any outsiders?
YES / NO
Does your group encourage you to read the Bible on your own, apart from the group’s own interpretation of what it is teaching?
YES / NO
Have you ever been instructed to cut all ties with the past, with relatives (spouse, children, in-laws, etc.) or with friends upon joining the group?
YES / NO
Do your leaders favorably quote and endorse known false teachers and false teachings in their own sermons, messages and teaching?
YES / NO
Are the leaders in your group or church comprised of “yes men” who simply follow, submit to, and carry out the whims and desires of one man?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP’S OR CHURCH’S POLICIES
Does your group have any policies (or lack thereof) that allow leaders to use threats, pressures to conform, bribes, verbal abuse, etc.?
YES / NO
Would you say that your church’s or group’s policy on ‘discipline’ is extreme? If so, why and how?
YES / NO
Is, or could, your group’s policy on ‘discipline’ be dangerous, illegal, or abusive in any way?
YES / NO
Does your group restrict you from “visiting” other churches?
YES / NO
If you visit another church for a wedding, baptism, funeral or baby dedication would you get in trouble?
YES NO
If you were to ask valid, enquiring questions about your group’s policies, would this create relationship problems with the leaders?
YES / NO
Does your group have any policies that you would consider harmful to children, the family unit, or society in general?
YES / NO
Does your group employ “out-loud shaming” of individuals and/or families?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP’S LITERATURE AND MULTI-MEDIA
Do you rely completely, without question, on the literature and information that your group gives you for your spiritual growth?
YES / NO
Will you be disciplined if you ever, at any time, listen to, read or view literature and multi-media materials that are not from your group, church or organization? Materials could include such things as books, journals, tracts, magazines, newsletters, CD’s, DVD’s, audio cassettes, videos, websites, etc.?
YES / NO
Are you only allowed to use study aids, books, etc. that are from your group or organization?
YES / NO
Do your leaders ever communicate to you that only your organizations materials or “of God” -
YES / NO
Have your leaders ever told you that all bible study materials outside of your group considered worldly, bad, apostate, ‘of the devil’, or evil?
YES / NO
If you are caught reading religious materials or assessments about your group, that are not published by your group, your group’s governing body or your organization’s headquarters, will you be disciplined?
YES / NO
Do your leaders speak down, mock, or show consistent disdain against Christian churches and Christian, counter-cult research ministries?
YES / NO
If you were to visit your leaders and confront them regarding false prophecies they have made, or false teachings they have taught, do you think they would be angry, upset or frustrated that you came to show them their error?
YES / NO
Would you say that your leaders display lack of sorrow, lack of apology, and unrepentance when they are confronted with real sin or abuse issues?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT MORALS, HEALTH AND CONSCIENCE
Are you dependent upon the “approval” of your leaders for what you do (i.e. what you eat, what you wear, where you go, what you say, who you spend time with, who you marry, the music you listen to, etc.)?
YES / NO
Do you feel as though your life (or ministry) is being ‘micromanaged’ by others?
YES / NO
Do your leaders add unnecessary pressure to your decision making?
YES / NO
Are your leaders cruel, vindictive or overbearing?
YES / NO
Do any of your leaders justify sexual immorality by telling you something like, “God told me it is OK!”
Have you ever been instructed, led, or forced to partake in any type of sexual activity with any of your group’s leaders?
YES / NO
Are you or have you ever been commanded, forced, coerced, extorted, or manipulated into financial giving, tithing, sowing your seed-faith offering, etc.?
YES / NO
Are you being physically injured in any way (molested, raped, abused, whipped, beaten, tied up, slapped, heavy handed ‘intimacy’, etc.)?
YES / NO
Does your church, group or organization employ sleep deprivation, deprive people of a balanced diet, or utilize dehydration as a means to being more ‘spiritual’)?
YES / NO
Have you been forced, manipulated, coerced or pressured into making any moral and ethical choices against your own will and conscience? If so, what? If so, by whom?
YES / NO
If you address a valid issue or concern regarding problems in leadership that are clearly unbiblical, do your leaders backpedal, blameshift, or insist that they are right and you are wrong?
YES / NO
When confronting a leaders(s) with a valid issue or concern, do they turn the whole thing around to the point where now YOU have become the problem, not the issue that needs to be dealt with?
YES / NO
Do your leaders or ministry helpers ever lie to you?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT MAKING PERSONAL CHOICES
Do you feel that you are manipulated against your own desires when making personal choices about diet, clothing, time commitments, service, tithing, friendships, dating, spouses, purchases?
YES / NO
Are choices ever made by your leaders that go against and burden your own conscience?
YES / NO
Do authority figures within your group ever demand answers from you or use threats to get their way?
YES / NO
Do your leaders or the ‘group dynamic’ in your group make you feel as though you cannot come and go as you please (i.e. you feel as though your expected to be at all or most of the meetings)?
YES / NO
If you are experiencing abuse in any way, are you scared, afraid or nervous about leaving your group, church or organization?
YES / NO
Do your leaders, or the group itself, make choices to involve you in things that you don’t like or would prefer not to be a part of?
YES / NO
Are you pressured or manipulated into making decisions – any decisions at all – regarding anything?
YES / NO
Do you feel guilty or dirty after making decisions because... “That is just what our group does.”
YES / NO
Do others in your group make any decisions for you? If so, what are they?
YES / NO
Is pressure put upon you, in any way, to avoid ‘other outside information’ about your group?
YES / NO
Are you fearful that if you make ‘a wrong choice’ your leaders will punish you?
YES / NO
Have you ever been punished or abused in any of the following ways: Physically abused, out-loud verbal shaming in front of others, given the non-verbal silent treatment, coded non-verbal abuse (the look), financially mistreated or extorted and, as a result, suffered financial repercussions, sexually abused in any way, emotionally manipulated, purposefully betrayed, sexual inuendos, etc?
YES / NO
Are there spoken or unspoken “dress code rules” in your group, that if broken, will lead to “discipline”?
YES / NO
If you are a woman, are you taught or commanded that you must wear long skirts, have long hair, avoid all make-up, and wear a head covering in order to please God?
YES / NO
Will your leaders or the group you belong to chastise you or refer to you as “carnal,” “less spiritual,” “unsubmissive,” or “in rebellion” if you do not wear long skirts, have long hair, wear a head covering and avoid all make-up?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS ABOUT REGISTERED SEX-OFFENDERS BEING ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN
Does your church, group, or organization allow registered sex offenders to be involved in children’s or youth ministry?
YES / NO
Do your leaders break the law by allowing registered sex offenders to be anywhere in the vicinity of children?
YES / NO
If it is known by your leaders that a registered sex offender is attempting to visit (or is consistently attending) your group or church service, and is in the vicinity of children, do your leaders kindly remove the registered sex offender(s) from the premises in order to protect the children (and the offender from breaking probation)?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT FINANCES
Are you allowed to enquire and ask valid questions as to how money is handled, where money is spent, and who is accountable with your church or group finances?
YES / NO
Is your group secretive about where its funds go?
YES / NO
If you were to enquire about “Who counts and handles the money?”, would your leader(s) show contempt towards you or look down on you with suspicion?
YES / NO
If your group is a church and/or holding services, and monies are received, does just one person or one married couple count and handle all the finances?
YES / NO
Have you ever been told by your leader(s) that no financial board is needed?
YES / NO
If your group is a church and/or holding services, and monies are received, do the leaders AVOID filing annual tax documents with the Internal Revenue Service and Franchise Tax Board?
YES / NO
When money is received through offerings, collected through offering boxes, etc., do you see that there is a lack of accountability with counting, processing and depositing funds?
YES / NO
If you have ever enquired about the financial accountability procedures in your church, group or organization, have your leaders been defensive?
YES / NO
A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
Is there a high turnover rate of people coming and then leaving your church or group?
YES / NO
Do you often hear stories of strife, bitterness, and controversies within your group or its leadership?
YES / NO
Does your group consistently condemn people and churches outside your group as being “of the devil,” “Satanic,” “servants of Satan,” “worldly”, etc.?
YES / NO
Does your church have the “We Are The Only True Church” mentality?
YES / NO
Do you experience cruelty or abusive attitudes from leaders in your church or group?
YES / NO
Are the leading men in your church, group or organization too busy to spend time with their own families?
YES / NO
Is your group engaging in any of the following forms of mystical, New Age, occult, or consciousness altering methodology: chanting, mysticism, contemplative “centering” prayer, yoga, meditation, uncontrollable laughter, “babbling in tongues”, consciousness altering practices, visualization, guided imagery, reiki, therapeutic touch, transferable anointing, shaking, jerking, heat in hands, electrical jolts, shocks and currents through the body, carpet time, “Holy Laughter,” group hysteria, spontaneous yoga poses, etc.?
YES / NO
Just one last thing. If you are in tears right now, filled with grief, sorrow and pain, please know this: There is freedom ahead and there is a God in heaven who desires to break the chains of abuse, pain, and the hardship you have been through. He sees your silent tears, He understands your grief, and He is willing and available to comfort your pain and distress.
end quote
Sistersoap
Here is an interesting list of questions to ask about spiritual abuse in any group of concern to you or a loved one:
Spiritual Abuse Questionnaire
Questions To Help Identify Specific Areas of Spiritual Abuse, Deception, and Fraud
by Chris Lawson
[www.spiritual-research-network.com]
The following list of questions is to help you, the reader, think through a number of things that perhaps you have never seriously considered on your own before.
As you read the questions, circle either YES or NO. When you reach the end, go back through the list and prayerfully consider the questions that you have answered YES to.
Answering YES to any of the following questions may be an indication of an unhealthy problem in your group or with your leaders.
Answering YES to more than just a few questions is a definite cause for alarm. If this is the case, it is recommended that you take a much closer look into your group’s or organization’s history, purpose, and goals. Observe closely the methods, activities, and lives of the leaders. Are they using abusive and manipulative tactics on people?
If you believe that you are being abused in any way, it is highly recommended that you seek immediate help from balanced individuals and relatives who are outside of the influence of your group and its leaders.
Remember, you have the freedom to make your own choices and to be free from controlling and manipulative people. Controlling, abusive, and manipulating people will only mock, chastise and attempt to control you even more when their ploys, methods and artful ways of controlling others have been exposed.
Lastly, if you are suffering physical harm in any way or are involved against your conscience in any activity, you have the freedom to call emergency personnel by dialing 911.
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR CHURCH OR GROUP’S LEADERS
Are you in any way fearful of your leader(s)?
YES / NO
Does your church or group revolve around one main charismatic personality who is the final arbiter of “truth”?
YES / NO
Do your leaders make claims of being “Anointed,” having “Elijah’s Mantle,” having “Apostolic Authority,” etc?
YES / NO
Does the main leader, or the leaders in your church or group ALWAYS insist that they are right?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to freely ask questions about the background of your leader(s) and your group without being looked down upon or being considered ‘divisive’?
YES / NO
Would you be ‘rebuked’ by your leader(s) if you researched the background and history of the group and its leader(s)?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to freely discuss teachings, prophecies, or so-called new revelations that your groups leader(s) have stated in the past or present?
YES / NO
Are you allowed to ask your leader(s) questions regarding their background in ministry, education, teaching, policies, etc.?
YES / NO
Are your leaders above reproach (without blame) in morals, ethics, teaching and financial issues?
YES / NO
Do any of your leaders have a criminal record?
YES / NO
Would your leader(s) freely allow you to research their background in order to find out if they have any criminal record?
YES / NO
Has anyone in your group ever tried to persuade you to NOT research the personal background of the leaders?
YES / NO
When issues are brought up about abusive situations, do your leaders say, “You just need to have more faith!”, or “You are being disloyal to leadership!”?
YES / NO
Can ordinary people/members in your group easily get in touch with the leaders?
YES / NO
Are your leaders aloof, unapproachable, unkind or harsh in any way to any of the people in your group?
YES / NO
Are your leaders amongst an “elite” class within your group?
YES / NO
Have your leaders ever told you or taught you that they are the only ones that can “rightly interpret” the Scriptures (Holy Bible)?
YES / NO
Do your leaders teach that your “church” or “movement” or “group” is the Only True Church?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP AND ITS TEACHINGS
Do you feel that your group twists and misapplies Bible verses?
YES / NO
Are you told what you will believe?
YES / NO
Are you guided through the Bible and at the same time encouraged to study the Scriptures on your own, apart from your group’s own materials?
YES / NO
Do your leaders claim “New Revelations,” or special “Words from God?”
YES / NO
Do your leaders gladly provide you and your group with a written “Statement of Beliefs”, or, “Statement of Faith”?
YES / NO
Is it difficult to get a straight answer from the group’s leader(s) on the group’s teachings?
YES / NO
Is your group ‘secretive’ about any of its teachings, practices or meetings?
YES / NO
Does your group take ‘oaths’ or have you commit to unrealistic expectations?
YES / NO
Are your leaders ever “harsh” in tone with you or do you ever feel like an animal that is “driven hard”?
YES / NO
Have you been taught, told or commanded NOT to share any of your group’s teachings, doctrines or practices with any outsiders?
YES / NO
Does your group encourage you to read the Bible on your own, apart from the group’s own interpretation of what it is teaching?
YES / NO
Have you ever been instructed to cut all ties with the past, with relatives (spouse, children, in-laws, etc.) or with friends upon joining the group?
YES / NO
Do your leaders favorably quote and endorse known false teachers and false teachings in their own sermons, messages and teaching?
YES / NO
Are the leaders in your group or church comprised of “yes men” who simply follow, submit to, and carry out the whims and desires of one man?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP’S OR CHURCH’S POLICIES
Does your group have any policies (or lack thereof) that allow leaders to use threats, pressures to conform, bribes, verbal abuse, etc.?
YES / NO
Would you say that your church’s or group’s policy on ‘discipline’ is extreme? If so, why and how?
YES / NO
Is, or could, your group’s policy on ‘discipline’ be dangerous, illegal, or abusive in any way?
YES / NO
Does your group restrict you from “visiting” other churches?
YES / NO
If you visit another church for a wedding, baptism, funeral or baby dedication would you get in trouble?
YES NO
If you were to ask valid, enquiring questions about your group’s policies, would this create relationship problems with the leaders?
YES / NO
Does your group have any policies that you would consider harmful to children, the family unit, or society in general?
YES / NO
Does your group employ “out-loud shaming” of individuals and/or families?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT YOUR GROUP’S LITERATURE AND MULTI-MEDIA
Do you rely completely, without question, on the literature and information that your group gives you for your spiritual growth?
YES / NO
Will you be disciplined if you ever, at any time, listen to, read or view literature and multi-media materials that are not from your group, church or organization? Materials could include such things as books, journals, tracts, magazines, newsletters, CD’s, DVD’s, audio cassettes, videos, websites, etc.?
YES / NO
Are you only allowed to use study aids, books, etc. that are from your group or organization?
YES / NO
Do your leaders ever communicate to you that only your organizations materials or “of God” -
YES / NO
Have your leaders ever told you that all bible study materials outside of your group considered worldly, bad, apostate, ‘of the devil’, or evil?
YES / NO
If you are caught reading religious materials or assessments about your group, that are not published by your group, your group’s governing body or your organization’s headquarters, will you be disciplined?
YES / NO
Do your leaders speak down, mock, or show consistent disdain against Christian churches and Christian, counter-cult research ministries?
YES / NO
If you were to visit your leaders and confront them regarding false prophecies they have made, or false teachings they have taught, do you think they would be angry, upset or frustrated that you came to show them their error?
YES / NO
Would you say that your leaders display lack of sorrow, lack of apology, and unrepentance when they are confronted with real sin or abuse issues?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT MORALS, HEALTH AND CONSCIENCE
Are you dependent upon the “approval” of your leaders for what you do (i.e. what you eat, what you wear, where you go, what you say, who you spend time with, who you marry, the music you listen to, etc.)?
YES / NO
Do you feel as though your life (or ministry) is being ‘micromanaged’ by others?
YES / NO
Do your leaders add unnecessary pressure to your decision making?
YES / NO
Are your leaders cruel, vindictive or overbearing?
YES / NO
Do any of your leaders justify sexual immorality by telling you something like, “God told me it is OK!”
Have you ever been instructed, led, or forced to partake in any type of sexual activity with any of your group’s leaders?
YES / NO
Are you or have you ever been commanded, forced, coerced, extorted, or manipulated into financial giving, tithing, sowing your seed-faith offering, etc.?
YES / NO
Are you being physically injured in any way (molested, raped, abused, whipped, beaten, tied up, slapped, heavy handed ‘intimacy’, etc.)?
YES / NO
Does your church, group or organization employ sleep deprivation, deprive people of a balanced diet, or utilize dehydration as a means to being more ‘spiritual’)?
YES / NO
Have you been forced, manipulated, coerced or pressured into making any moral and ethical choices against your own will and conscience? If so, what? If so, by whom?
YES / NO
If you address a valid issue or concern regarding problems in leadership that are clearly unbiblical, do your leaders backpedal, blameshift, or insist that they are right and you are wrong?
YES / NO
When confronting a leaders(s) with a valid issue or concern, do they turn the whole thing around to the point where now YOU have become the problem, not the issue that needs to be dealt with?
YES / NO
Do your leaders or ministry helpers ever lie to you?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT MAKING PERSONAL CHOICES
Do you feel that you are manipulated against your own desires when making personal choices about diet, clothing, time commitments, service, tithing, friendships, dating, spouses, purchases?
YES / NO
Are choices ever made by your leaders that go against and burden your own conscience?
YES / NO
Do authority figures within your group ever demand answers from you or use threats to get their way?
YES / NO
Do your leaders or the ‘group dynamic’ in your group make you feel as though you cannot come and go as you please (i.e. you feel as though your expected to be at all or most of the meetings)?
YES / NO
If you are experiencing abuse in any way, are you scared, afraid or nervous about leaving your group, church or organization?
YES / NO
Do your leaders, or the group itself, make choices to involve you in things that you don’t like or would prefer not to be a part of?
YES / NO
Are you pressured or manipulated into making decisions – any decisions at all – regarding anything?
YES / NO
Do you feel guilty or dirty after making decisions because... “That is just what our group does.”
YES / NO
Do others in your group make any decisions for you? If so, what are they?
YES / NO
Is pressure put upon you, in any way, to avoid ‘other outside information’ about your group?
YES / NO
Are you fearful that if you make ‘a wrong choice’ your leaders will punish you?
YES / NO
Have you ever been punished or abused in any of the following ways: Physically abused, out-loud verbal shaming in front of others, given the non-verbal silent treatment, coded non-verbal abuse (the look), financially mistreated or extorted and, as a result, suffered financial repercussions, sexually abused in any way, emotionally manipulated, purposefully betrayed, sexual inuendos, etc?
YES / NO
Are there spoken or unspoken “dress code rules” in your group, that if broken, will lead to “discipline”?
YES / NO
If you are a woman, are you taught or commanded that you must wear long skirts, have long hair, avoid all make-up, and wear a head covering in order to please God?
YES / NO
Will your leaders or the group you belong to chastise you or refer to you as “carnal,” “less spiritual,” “unsubmissive,” or “in rebellion” if you do not wear long skirts, have long hair, wear a head covering and avoid all make-up?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS ABOUT REGISTERED SEX-OFFENDERS BEING ALLOWED AROUND CHILDREN
Does your church, group, or organization allow registered sex offenders to be involved in children’s or youth ministry?
YES / NO
Do your leaders break the law by allowing registered sex offenders to be anywhere in the vicinity of children?
YES / NO
If it is known by your leaders that a registered sex offender is attempting to visit (or is consistently attending) your group or church service, and is in the vicinity of children, do your leaders kindly remove the registered sex offender(s) from the premises in order to protect the children (and the offender from breaking probation)?
YES / NO
QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT FINANCES
Are you allowed to enquire and ask valid questions as to how money is handled, where money is spent, and who is accountable with your church or group finances?
YES / NO
Is your group secretive about where its funds go?
YES / NO
If you were to enquire about “Who counts and handles the money?”, would your leader(s) show contempt towards you or look down on you with suspicion?
YES / NO
If your group is a church and/or holding services, and monies are received, does just one person or one married couple count and handle all the finances?
YES / NO
Have you ever been told by your leader(s) that no financial board is needed?
YES / NO
If your group is a church and/or holding services, and monies are received, do the leaders AVOID filing annual tax documents with the Internal Revenue Service and Franchise Tax Board?
YES / NO
When money is received through offerings, collected through offering boxes, etc., do you see that there is a lack of accountability with counting, processing and depositing funds?
YES / NO
If you have ever enquired about the financial accountability procedures in your church, group or organization, have your leaders been defensive?
YES / NO
A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
Is there a high turnover rate of people coming and then leaving your church or group?
YES / NO
Do you often hear stories of strife, bitterness, and controversies within your group or its leadership?
YES / NO
Does your group consistently condemn people and churches outside your group as being “of the devil,” “Satanic,” “servants of Satan,” “worldly”, etc.?
YES / NO
Does your church have the “We Are The Only True Church” mentality?
YES / NO
Do you experience cruelty or abusive attitudes from leaders in your church or group?
YES / NO
Are the leading men in your church, group or organization too busy to spend time with their own families?
YES / NO
Is your group engaging in any of the following forms of mystical, New Age, occult, or consciousness altering methodology: chanting, mysticism, contemplative “centering” prayer, yoga, meditation, uncontrollable laughter, “babbling in tongues”, consciousness altering practices, visualization, guided imagery, reiki, therapeutic touch, transferable anointing, shaking, jerking, heat in hands, electrical jolts, shocks and currents through the body, carpet time, “Holy Laughter,” group hysteria, spontaneous yoga poses, etc.?
YES / NO
Just one last thing. If you are in tears right now, filled with grief, sorrow and pain, please know this: There is freedom ahead and there is a God in heaven who desires to break the chains of abuse, pain, and the hardship you have been through. He sees your silent tears, He understands your grief, and He is willing and available to comfort your pain and distress.
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Sistersoap
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