Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
vdesign
()
Date: July 23, 2010 06:11PM
Hi Steve,
A reasonable DWB practitioner? Is it not a contradiction in terms :-)? But seriously, Rick has held my last post so this one may also not go through. I guess we'll see. Plus this is a cult site so whoever is implicated becomes guilty by definition.
One more thing for the record - I only mentioned my experiences b/c you stressed how important it is to rely on what one has actually seen oneself, as opposed to relying on second-hand stories. You may invite Ole to drive a car 700km in a lab to see when a wheel falls off. I guess that would settle the score.
I share your concern about radical Islam. A more general issue has to do with what we are actually allowed to say in this PC world without being labeled racist, homophobic, sexist. As I see it the Islamic viewpoint is essentially incompatible with the Western lifestyle. For example Muslim men are allowed to marry up to four women which cannot be accommodated in the Western concept of marriage, inheritance, child custody etc. At the same time Muslim women are only allowed to marry one man which again does not fit in the Western concept of gender equality. This is not to say that the Muslim system is inferior. It is just different and incompatible with what we have in the West. A one-wife Islam is not Islam as Quran is to be accepted literally - if it says men are allowed four wives that is it. The same goes for the dress code, access to education, freedom to choose partners etc.
These are simple observations which seem obvious but will expose one to allegations of racism, if shared publicly. Assuming you have children would you be ok with your daughter(s) living according to the laws of a country like Yemen or Saudi Arabia? What if Europe became more like Saudi Arabia? Impossible? I think not. There are already calls to allow ethnic communities in France and GB to live by sharia. This is what I believe Ole means when he says that Islam is a major threat to the Western way of life.
Of course nothing is simple and the West accepted mass immigration from other cultural spheres because the Western world did not produce enough children. This was a result of the me-first attitude of people indulging in the joys of life without thinking about who is going to pay for their pension. Socialism is not sustainable unless the pool of taxpayers keeps growing to pay for the election promises.
You asked me some direct questions about the attitudes among the DW crowd but where I live I am a bit sheltered from the mainstream dogma. There are 5-6 people in my local group, all good friends, and the nearest centre is 600km away. I am sad if anyone mindlessly bags other cultures. I am equally sad if people cannot think clearly and do not see threats which may deprive the next generation of the freedoms we all take for granted.
Does it make any sense?
Cheers,
A reasonable DWB practitioner? Is it not a contradiction in terms :-)? But seriously, Rick has held my last post so this one may also not go through. I guess we'll see. Plus this is a cult site so whoever is implicated becomes guilty by definition.
One more thing for the record - I only mentioned my experiences b/c you stressed how important it is to rely on what one has actually seen oneself, as opposed to relying on second-hand stories. You may invite Ole to drive a car 700km in a lab to see when a wheel falls off. I guess that would settle the score.
I share your concern about radical Islam. A more general issue has to do with what we are actually allowed to say in this PC world without being labeled racist, homophobic, sexist. As I see it the Islamic viewpoint is essentially incompatible with the Western lifestyle. For example Muslim men are allowed to marry up to four women which cannot be accommodated in the Western concept of marriage, inheritance, child custody etc. At the same time Muslim women are only allowed to marry one man which again does not fit in the Western concept of gender equality. This is not to say that the Muslim system is inferior. It is just different and incompatible with what we have in the West. A one-wife Islam is not Islam as Quran is to be accepted literally - if it says men are allowed four wives that is it. The same goes for the dress code, access to education, freedom to choose partners etc.
These are simple observations which seem obvious but will expose one to allegations of racism, if shared publicly. Assuming you have children would you be ok with your daughter(s) living according to the laws of a country like Yemen or Saudi Arabia? What if Europe became more like Saudi Arabia? Impossible? I think not. There are already calls to allow ethnic communities in France and GB to live by sharia. This is what I believe Ole means when he says that Islam is a major threat to the Western way of life.
Of course nothing is simple and the West accepted mass immigration from other cultural spheres because the Western world did not produce enough children. This was a result of the me-first attitude of people indulging in the joys of life without thinking about who is going to pay for their pension. Socialism is not sustainable unless the pool of taxpayers keeps growing to pay for the election promises.
You asked me some direct questions about the attitudes among the DW crowd but where I live I am a bit sheltered from the mainstream dogma. There are 5-6 people in my local group, all good friends, and the nearest centre is 600km away. I am sad if anyone mindlessly bags other cultures. I am equally sad if people cannot think clearly and do not see threats which may deprive the next generation of the freedoms we all take for granted.
Does it make any sense?
Cheers,
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: July 23, 2010 06:51PM
Quote
vdesign
Hi Alchi and SteveLpool,
Thanks for your well reasoned posts. I am offering some comments on your recent contributions.
Firstly the official support for Ole’s effort over the years by Tibetan hierarchy is not limited to “the shamarpa letter”. The official endorsements I can think of are:
1. Letter by Karmapa to the Danish Queen
2. First letter by Shamarpa
3. Introduction to Ole’s “Ngondro” book by Goshir Gyaltsap
4. I seem to remember intro to another of Ole’s books by Tai Situ (not 100% sure though)
5. Letter by Khenpo Choedrak
6. Second letter by Shamarpa
7. Long life prayer and many public statements of full support by Lopon Tsechu
8. Statements of (general) support by 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje
I am not saying that the official endorsement is all that important but if one mounts argument based on lack thereof then perhaps it is worth setting the record straight. Alchi’s reference to Shamarpa’s “letter about Ole’s lack of qualification and his self appointed title of lama” is rather confused. The letter clearly states the exact opposite i.e. confirms Ole’s credentials and the legitimacy of his “lama” title.
Re: “miracles” performed by HHDL I have heard of quite a few (chasing away swarm of bees, stopping forest fire, protecting village from elephants etc). These stories may not have come from Robert Thurman but probably from HHDL’s other students.
Steve’s mention of the value of first hand experience prompts me to recall what I actually saw some time ago. I am simply relating the situations I was close to.
In early 1990s I took phowa from Ole at a rural location in Poland. It was a miserable wet summer but somehow rain did not interfere with the proceedings. On the last day of the course I noticed that a group of local farmers with families occupied the back rows. This was quite unusual in a staunchly catholic country but I have not thought much of it. I later learned that the local farmers were the only ones in a large area who did not lose potato crop to rot – it rained everywhere but within a few km’s of the phowa tent. After a week of watching the wall of rain in the distance they decided to check out what went on in the tent. I saw a similar phenomenon when Ole’s plane was touching down in 1990s – a clearing over the airport in fully overcast skies for miles around.
Around 1996 I helped to organise Ole’s visit and after public talk the group drove my car to another place some 350km away. On the way the front wheel fell off. Those who know Ole’s style of driving must realise that this could have been serious if not fatal. However, the wheel fell off as they approached a settlement and had to reduce speed to 50km/h. The car rolled/slid for a while and came to a stop outside mechanical workshop. 30 minutes later they were back on their way. This is the story as I got it from all four people who were in the car. And yes, the damage to the car was consistent with the story.
I do not think these stories prove anything or are even particularly important in a wider context but this is what I personally witnessed. What does it have to do with search for the truth? Well, this is the truth – it has happened! Has it changed my life? Nope. Has it inspired me to confront my ego? Maybe.
I am also happy to share my views on the more controversial aspects of DW and will do so (unless culled by RR).
Cheers,
Hi vdesign
Sorry about my confusing statement regarding the shamarpa letter. What I wanted to say is that until this point Ole was indeed a self appointed "lama" (He has not completed the formal training including the 3 years retreat as far as I know)
Regarding the other documents you have mentioned, I haven't read them so I can't comment. If indeed the shamarpa or other high ranking Karma kagiu officials (of the minority side supporting Thaye Dorje) have issued more formal approval of Nydalh then it is only more embarassing for the shamarpa. Some people will argue that it is not the first time that he's showing lack of insight. I'm not a following the karma kagiu tradition anymore since my experience with DWB but the association of Nydalh with Thaye Dorje can only be damaging for the credibility of the later. I think this explain the latest remarks from the shamarpa regarding DWB. Although as mentioned earlier, people changes and people can show there real nature later on in life. Maybe some people including the shamarpa have been duped by Ole.He's a human being and lots of people find Nydalh to be really charismatic and charming at first. the support of nydalh at the height of the karmapa controversy was certainly viewed as useful by the shamarpa too. Now, with the ole's menace of libel, i don't think we will see more endorsement coming from the shamarpa!
Please note that I have nothing against the shamarpa or the people who chosed to follow his chosen karmapa. In fact I have met so people like lama Monlam in Switzerland and his sister in Nepal and they have been really nice, I haven''t heard any complaint about the bodhi tree centers either.
Anyway...This is really fascinating subject in context of the tibetan politics. But for me this has not much to do with DWB.
Regarding the Ole's miracles you've witnessed...As poetic as these are and with all my respect, I can't relate to them. For me these sound delusional but for a believer like yourself I am sure those make sense.
Regarding the most controversial aspects of DWB, yes please I and probably others here would like to hear your comments.
I am particularly interested in your take on the allegations of racism and white supremacy theories in the DWB.
Best,
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
herbieZH
()
Date: July 23, 2010 07:52PM
Quote
vdesign
Hi Steve,
A reasonable DWB practitioner? Is it not a contradiction in terms :-)? But seriously, Rick has held my last post so this one may also not go through. I guess we'll see. Plus this is a cult site so whoever is implicated becomes guilty by definition.
One more thing for the record - I only mentioned my experiences b/c you stressed how important it is to rely on what one has actually seen oneself, as opposed to relying on second-hand stories. You may invite Ole to drive a car 700km in a lab to see when a wheel falls off. I guess that would settle the score.
I share your concern about radical Islam. A more general issue has to do with what we are actually allowed to say in this PC world without being labeled racist, homophobic, sexist. As I see it the Islamic viewpoint is essentially incompatible with the Western lifestyle. For example Muslim men are allowed to marry up to four women which cannot be accommodated in the Western concept of marriage, inheritance, child custody etc. At the same time Muslim women are only allowed to marry one man which again does not fit in the Western concept of gender equality. This is not to say that the Muslim system is inferior. It is just different and incompatible with what we have in the West. A one-wife Islam is not Islam as Quran is to be accepted literally - if it says men are allowed four wives that is it. The same goes for the dress code, access to education, freedom to choose partners etc.
These are simple observations which seem obvious but will expose one to allegations of racism, if shared publicly. Assuming you have children would you be ok with your daughter(s) living according to the laws of a country like Yemen or Saudi Arabia? What if Europe became more like Saudi Arabia? Impossible? I think not. There are already calls to allow ethnic communities in France and GB to live by sharia. This is what I believe Ole means when he says that Islam is a major threat to the Western way of life.
Of course nothing is simple and the West accepted mass immigration from other cultural spheres because the Western world did not produce enough children. This was a result of the me-first attitude of people indulging in the joys of life without thinking about who is going to pay for their pension. Socialism is not sustainable unless the pool of taxpayers keeps growing to pay for the election promises.
You asked me some direct questions about the attitudes among the DW crowd but where I live I am a bit sheltered from the mainstream dogma. There are 5-6 people in my local group, all good friends, and the nearest centre is 600km away. I am sad if anyone mindlessly bags other cultures. I am equally sad if people cannot think clearly and do not see threats which may deprive the next generation of the freedoms we all take for granted.
Does it make any sense?
Cheers,
Hi vdesign,
even if I agree to some degree with your arguments and concerns, my question to you is: Is any kind of "campaigning" in this direction appropriate within a buddhist group?
I would say NO! If people come to DWB because they are interested in buddhism and meditation, then give them just this and nothing more. Otherwise you'll turn this group into a strange mixture of buddhist group and political movement. Leave the two apart. Found an independent political group and get active there if you feel the need to campaign about the spread of Islam. Don't bother members of a buddhist group with that even if they share the same ideas about it with you! Period! Otherwise you will provoke all kinds of unwanted group dynamics that distract people from what they had really come for!
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 23, 2010 11:00PM
Quote
vdesign
There appear to be two issues with Ole’s contentious statements about Islam, sex, homosexuals, Africa etc. Firstly – are these statements verifiable/objective/factual/true and, secondly – is it acceptable to publicly voice these views? I will start by dissecting what Ole says about homosexualism.
Whenever asked Ole proclaims to be completely heterosexual and thus having little first hand experience in the subject matter. When pressed he usually adds that according to Buddha’s teachings one is born gay as a result of bad relationships with the opposite sex in past lives. Ole also usually explains that one’s sexual orientation is not that important as all beings can attain Enlightenment. He basically presents homosexuality as just another karmic condition which has a cause and can be worked with on the way to recognising the nature of mind.
You may ask what the big deal is? Well, Ole gets caned by gay organisations for judgementally attributing homosexual tendencies to bad actions in past lives. But this is a complete misunderstanding of Buddha’s teachings! We are ALL reborn humans as a result of confused actions, predominantly driven by desire. The Buddha even gave guided tours of samsara to his students explaining why kings, beggars, lepers were reborn the way they were. His teachings are full of comments on causes of particular karmic dispositions. As in: short life (through illness, abortion or accident) as a result of killing others, inherited wealth as a result of generosity etc. My favourite one is bad mouth odour as a result of bad-mouthing others. The reason that people with bad mouth odour are not up in arms about this claim is that, unlike gays, they do not fight (as a group) for social recognition.
So are Ole’s statements about homosexualism true? According to Buddha’s teachings – yes. Are they socially acceptable? Well, is it acceptable to say that the aborted had once killed others? That those born into poverty once were wealthy but did not share? You be the judge.
Cheers,
To quote from the accepted meditation - "... it is up to us what will happen. Former thoughts, words and actions became our present state and right now we are sowing seeds for the future."
Now, reading your post, and indeed Ole's comments, there seems to be an emphasis on looking backwards, which provides a fatalistic reading of Karma. The emphasis is clearly on the bit about how our present state is seen as a consequence of our past - the part about what we do here and now seems to get overlooked, so that this view seems to border on the idea of Karma being a sort of moralistic punishment.
A consequence of this can be seen in an analysis of Ole's discourse - where is it leading? - does it aim at harmony and reconciliation with those who oppose us, or does it instead fan the flames of divisiveness and intolerance?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2010 11:02PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
vdesign
()
Date: July 24, 2010 06:39AM
I will conclude my brief comments on the major groups of contentious statements by Ole by touching on his references to sex.
Reading Shamarpa's letter was a shock to me. I have never heard Ole give any techings on yab-yum to anyone or suggesting that a certain attitude to sex is a prerequisite to Buddhist practice. Quite contrary, he regularly advises his students not to have too many concepts about sex and just share the joy of union with their partners. I distinctly remember how, when asked about tantric sex, Ole explained that it is an incredibly subtle process and for a start both partners have to be able to consciously draw their life energies into the central channel. This is what happens at death so, in effect, both yab-yum adepts have to be able to almost die in meditation to be able to practice it. Ole also commented that the weekend tantric sex workshops are a joke. Additionally I am not aware of any tantric sex activity in DW curriculum.
Where the confusion comes from is Ole's relaxed attitude to sex as part of a normal life of lay people. He himself is completely open about his lifestyle which has always included having multiple sex partners. As you may know this has never been as issue with Hannah who knew about and got on well with Ole's other consorts. I am not aware of any bitter ex-girlfriends or love children from Ole's relationships with women. From where I am this looks like a string of temporary relationships between consenting adults who appear to be happy with the deal both during and after fact. One example is Cathy who used to be Ole's consort but now is with another man while remaining Ole' personal assistant and student. I have absolutely no problem with this whole issue. Those who insist on receiving teachings only from celibate or monogamous teaches should be getting plenty of warning and run for the hills - Ole is really completely transparent in that regard.
If RR's patience with my ranting holds I will next respond to questions in the recent posts.
Cheers,
Reading Shamarpa's letter was a shock to me. I have never heard Ole give any techings on yab-yum to anyone or suggesting that a certain attitude to sex is a prerequisite to Buddhist practice. Quite contrary, he regularly advises his students not to have too many concepts about sex and just share the joy of union with their partners. I distinctly remember how, when asked about tantric sex, Ole explained that it is an incredibly subtle process and for a start both partners have to be able to consciously draw their life energies into the central channel. This is what happens at death so, in effect, both yab-yum adepts have to be able to almost die in meditation to be able to practice it. Ole also commented that the weekend tantric sex workshops are a joke. Additionally I am not aware of any tantric sex activity in DW curriculum.
Where the confusion comes from is Ole's relaxed attitude to sex as part of a normal life of lay people. He himself is completely open about his lifestyle which has always included having multiple sex partners. As you may know this has never been as issue with Hannah who knew about and got on well with Ole's other consorts. I am not aware of any bitter ex-girlfriends or love children from Ole's relationships with women. From where I am this looks like a string of temporary relationships between consenting adults who appear to be happy with the deal both during and after fact. One example is Cathy who used to be Ole's consort but now is with another man while remaining Ole' personal assistant and student. I have absolutely no problem with this whole issue. Those who insist on receiving teachings only from celibate or monogamous teaches should be getting plenty of warning and run for the hills - Ole is really completely transparent in that regard.
If RR's patience with my ranting holds I will next respond to questions in the recent posts.
Cheers,
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 24, 2010 01:19PM
We seem to live in a culture of blame and recrimination - apportioning guilt and making judgements accordingly - scaremongering and inventing demons to crusade against, this is how the majority of the media behaves - it is commonplace.
It has also been quite common in the past for religions to preach forgiveness and yet act in exactly this hypocritical, judgemental and inflammatory way. Personally, that it is one of the major reasons why I sought out Buddhism as an alternative spiritual practice.
The concept of forgiveness is present in all major religions, and Buddhism gives very detailed instructions - this is particularly noticeable in precisely the form of Buddhism that is supposed to be practiced by DWB, which emphasises the strength of one’s view, and the fact that it is us who are in full control of how we choose to see things. DWB’s practice also emphasises fearlessness.
So, for example, in the story of Buddha and a mad elephant which had already killed and was on the rampage, without fear Buddha faced the elephant and radiated loving-kindness towards it, thereby placating it.
He certainly didn’t run around fear mongering, claiming he would protect people, or bellowing a warning about the dangers - thereby increasing the level of fear and panic.
He didn’t reprimand the elephant or blame it for it’s murderous rage - calling for something to be done less the situation escalates.
He didn’t focus purely on the elephant’s past actions, attempting to justify antagonism as a response to antagonism.
He didn’t attempt some daredevil feat in the face of this danger, and them claim that a miracle had occurred when he escaped by the skin of his teeth.
He was calm and kind, he revealed his nature and lead by example so powerfully that the elephant followed and became calm.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 01:20PM by suenam.
It has also been quite common in the past for religions to preach forgiveness and yet act in exactly this hypocritical, judgemental and inflammatory way. Personally, that it is one of the major reasons why I sought out Buddhism as an alternative spiritual practice.
The concept of forgiveness is present in all major religions, and Buddhism gives very detailed instructions - this is particularly noticeable in precisely the form of Buddhism that is supposed to be practiced by DWB, which emphasises the strength of one’s view, and the fact that it is us who are in full control of how we choose to see things. DWB’s practice also emphasises fearlessness.
So, for example, in the story of Buddha and a mad elephant which had already killed and was on the rampage, without fear Buddha faced the elephant and radiated loving-kindness towards it, thereby placating it.
He certainly didn’t run around fear mongering, claiming he would protect people, or bellowing a warning about the dangers - thereby increasing the level of fear and panic.
He didn’t reprimand the elephant or blame it for it’s murderous rage - calling for something to be done less the situation escalates.
He didn’t focus purely on the elephant’s past actions, attempting to justify antagonism as a response to antagonism.
He didn’t attempt some daredevil feat in the face of this danger, and them claim that a miracle had occurred when he escaped by the skin of his teeth.
He was calm and kind, he revealed his nature and lead by example so powerfully that the elephant followed and became calm.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 01:20PM by suenam.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
vdesign
()
Date: July 24, 2010 01:49PM
herbie,
Thanks for your feedback. I never thought I would last that long on a cult website but there we go.
First an honest disclosure. Yes, I am a DW troll. I "contracted" TB through Ole and now after 25+ years he is still my main link to buddhadharma. In saying that I understand most of the objections voiced on this thread. There is a more comprehensive analysis of the various fine points of the DW dharma on the famous e-sangha thread and anyone afflicted by DW-iaitis should go there to have a look. Unfortunately I ran afoul of the e-sangha rules and my posts have largely been deleted. But you can still study the insightful contributions by Lama Dave (who is now banned on this forum).
Is there a place for socially enagaged activities at a Buddhist centre? It is not well known but Sakyamuni spent a lot of time teaching the kings how to govern their subjects, tradesmen how to run their businesses and spouses how to relate to each other and bring up their kids. He made no distinction between sacrum and profanum - they are both sides of the same samsaric coin. It is an idealistic Western notion that Buddhism is a bunch of lofty ideas which deal with the top four inches of a human body (and definitely above the waist line). In fact Buddhism is a total process - individual and collective, spiritual and corporal.
[...] [Moderator's note: Please staty on topic, which DW and OleNydahl, not your beliefs or Buddhist history]
You asked how best to quit DW. My advise: if you do not feel comfortable with the style of DW just leave and if anyone hassles you (I cannot imagine why they would) be sure you are dealing with their ego side. We all have ego, you know... But if after a while you find out there is nothing better on offer do not blame me. Dealing with imperfect teachers, confused co-travelers on the spiritual path, slimy politicians, cheating car dealers is just part of a human condition. Would it not be great to be sitting on Sakyamuni's lap, eh? How come we are not? Let me think... karma?
Cheers,
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 07:30PM by rrmoderator.
Thanks for your feedback. I never thought I would last that long on a cult website but there we go.
First an honest disclosure. Yes, I am a DW troll. I "contracted" TB through Ole and now after 25+ years he is still my main link to buddhadharma. In saying that I understand most of the objections voiced on this thread. There is a more comprehensive analysis of the various fine points of the DW dharma on the famous e-sangha thread and anyone afflicted by DW-iaitis should go there to have a look. Unfortunately I ran afoul of the e-sangha rules and my posts have largely been deleted. But you can still study the insightful contributions by Lama Dave (who is now banned on this forum).
Is there a place for socially enagaged activities at a Buddhist centre? It is not well known but Sakyamuni spent a lot of time teaching the kings how to govern their subjects, tradesmen how to run their businesses and spouses how to relate to each other and bring up their kids. He made no distinction between sacrum and profanum - they are both sides of the same samsaric coin. It is an idealistic Western notion that Buddhism is a bunch of lofty ideas which deal with the top four inches of a human body (and definitely above the waist line). In fact Buddhism is a total process - individual and collective, spiritual and corporal.
[...] [Moderator's note: Please staty on topic, which DW and OleNydahl, not your beliefs or Buddhist history]
You asked how best to quit DW. My advise: if you do not feel comfortable with the style of DW just leave and if anyone hassles you (I cannot imagine why they would) be sure you are dealing with their ego side. We all have ego, you know... But if after a while you find out there is nothing better on offer do not blame me. Dealing with imperfect teachers, confused co-travelers on the spiritual path, slimy politicians, cheating car dealers is just part of a human condition. Would it not be great to be sitting on Sakyamuni's lap, eh? How come we are not? Let me think... karma?
Cheers,
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 07:30PM by rrmoderator.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
zara11
()
Date: July 25, 2010 09:07AM
It is such a shame that Lama Ole decides to protest agains Islam in the name of Buddhism, and shame on the disciples of Lama Ole as well. It is very embarassing to know that some people may get to know Buddhism trough this protests and manifestations against Islam, instead of the real compassionate pacific Buddhism.
I agree to the fact that Islam has some dangerous practices that promote violence against women and this shouldnt be allowed in the West, but, I do not agree with the fact that Lama Ole has to use the name of Buddhism to go and protest against this.
I agree to the fact that Islam has some dangerous practices that promote violence against women and this shouldnt be allowed in the West, but, I do not agree with the fact that Lama Ole has to use the name of Buddhism to go and protest against this.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
suenam
()
Date: July 26, 2010 12:09AM
Quote
zara11
It is such a shame that Lama Ole decides to protest agains Islam in the name of Buddhism, and shame on the disciples of Lama Ole as well. It is very embarassing to know that some people may get to know Buddhism trough this protests and manifestations against Islam, instead of the real compassionate pacific Buddhism.
I agree to the fact that Islam has some dangerous practices that promote violence against women and this shouldnt be allowed in the West, but, I do not agree with the fact that Lama Ole has to use the name of Buddhism to go and protest against this.
While I agree with what you write here Zara, I would like to add, more than the fact of the protest, it is the form that this protest takes which reveals a lot about Ole and his organisation - it's both reactionary and absolutist, and for me that's why it completely misrepresents Buddhism.
I think it is telling that my experience of DWB was that it was both misogynistic and fundamentalist, and yet these are two of the major objections that DWB raises against Islam - perhaps then it is unsurprising that these two ideoloogies clash, as they seem to be fighting over the same territory.
Re: Ole Nydahl and Diamond Way Buddhism
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: July 26, 2010 06:09PM
Quote
vdesign
Hi Steve,
A reasonable DWB practitioner? Is it not a contradiction in terms :-)? But seriously, Rick has held my last post so this one may also not go through. I guess we'll see. Plus this is a cult site so whoever is implicated becomes guilty by definition.
One more thing for the record - I only mentioned my experiences b/c you stressed how important it is to rely on what one has actually seen oneself, as opposed to relying on second-hand stories. You may invite Ole to drive a car 700km in a lab to see when a wheel falls off. I guess that would settle the score.
I share your concern about radical Islam. A more general issue has to do with what we are actually allowed to say in this PC world without being labeled racist, homophobic, sexist. As I see it the Islamic viewpoint is essentially incompatible with the Western lifestyle. For example Muslim men are allowed to marry up to four women which cannot be accommodated in the Western concept of marriage, inheritance, child custody etc. At the same time Muslim women are only allowed to marry one man which again does not fit in the Western concept of gender equality. This is not to say that the Muslim system is inferior. It is just different and incompatible with what we have in the West. A one-wife Islam is not Islam as Quran is to be accepted literally - if it says men are allowed four wives that is it. The same goes for the dress code, access to education, freedom to choose partners etc.
These are simple observations which seem obvious but will expose one to allegations of racism, if shared publicly. Assuming you have children would you be ok with your daughter(s) living according to the laws of a country like Yemen or Saudi Arabia? What if Europe became more like Saudi Arabia? Impossible? I think not. There are already calls to allow ethnic communities in France and GB to live by sharia. This is what I believe Ole means when he says that Islam is a major threat to the Western way of life.
Of course nothing is simple and the West accepted mass immigration from other cultural spheres because the Western world did not produce enough children. This was a result of the me-first attitude of people indulging in the joys of life without thinking about who is going to pay for their pension. Socialism is not sustainable unless the pool of taxpayers keeps growing to pay for the election promises.
You asked me some direct questions about the attitudes among the DW crowd but where I live I am a bit sheltered from the mainstream dogma. There are 5-6 people in my local group, all good friends, and the nearest centre is 600km away. I am sad if anyone mindlessly bags other cultures. I am equally sad if people cannot think clearly and do not see threats which may deprive the next generation of the freedoms we all take for granted.
Does it make any sense?
Cheers,
Hi Vdesign,
Nydalh’s (and your) understanding of karma is simplistic. The karmic concept is much more subtle than that. Same with your vision of Islam and homosexuality. Gross generalisation is extremely non Buddhist and intellectually wrong... Some clarification is needed regarding some of Nydalh’s favourite claims: Islam is intellectually inferior to Judaism and Christianity etc... (I.e. his famous quote regarding the lack of Muslim scientific Nobel prizes) Firstly, what about the Buddhists or Hindus? I am certain there’s much more Christian or Jewish modern scientists with Nobel prizes…What is his point? Are the Nobel prizes a kind of intellectual Olympic Games on which you judge different cultures or countries achievements? In this case the USA are well above every other nation with 320 laureates…
Modern medicine and mathematics have been developed and systemised in the Muslim world between the 10th and 15th century. Before then, modern maths were first developed in South India…By Hindus. My point being that you shouldn’t simplify history to fit your own theories. Everything and everyone are interlinked.
Regarding Islam again: People forget that Islam has not a monolithic identity, there are different views and flavours within Islam. Unfortunately the extremist Wahabist version is getting more leverage (and more press) today because of socio-political reasons I’m not going to explain here.
Another remark regarding racism in DW. It his interesting to note that countries where DW is the more active are countries where immigration and multiculturalism is low: Poland, Russia, Slovenia, Czech Republic, Germany or Denmark. I guess the fear of the unknown is at play.
Regarding Africa and dismissing a whole continent on karmic principles or claiming the Caucasian origin of Sakyamuni Buddha etc…I’m leaving it here for people to judge if these are proven theories or baseless and twisted fantasies.
On the issue of sexual relationship between teachers and students and Ole’s simplistic views on it, I think it is wrong. Period. Yes, you can fall in love with someone and it happen to teachers too, but the groupie culture in DWB is indeed surprising and it is symptomatic of Nydalh’s massive ego.
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