Good advice from Kate.

You dont owe them an explanation.

Repeat, you do not owe them an explanation. One thing that bad relationships and groups do is make us feel we owe an explanation. Then when we disclose we are leaving and try to explain why, that gives them an opportunity to launch shame attacks.

Worse, stuff you may have disclosed about yourself back when you still thought the group or person was trustworthy, might be used against you, in a custom designed shame attack that cons you into staying.

You might be accused of being a quitter, or hurting the Dharma, or something else you divulged when you still thought them trustworthy might be used against you.

They might claim you were just on the point of being approved for promotion or some kind of valued assignment.

Dont give them a chance of doing any of this. Leave quietly, and they'll probably be so distracted by the in group politics they wont notice you're gone and you will have some valuable breathing space.

Here is another way to look at it: If you have been involved at a DW center for some time, and have disclosed your hopes, your dreams, your vulnerabilities, all the things sincere practitioners would disclose---

PS No genuine buddhist community would EVER under any circumstances, make someone feel bad about leaving. Any sort of harassment would be out of the question.

Hi,

thanks for your good advice. My question wasn't so much about excusing myself, more in the hope to open the eyes of some others before I leave.
Since that was something being discussed earlier here. What can we do about the problems? I thought I could do at least a little bit before I go.

Cheers

Quote
vdesign
Alchi,

Reports of "miracles" are actually quite common in Vajrayana. You will find many texts referring to the super-natural deeds performed by Sakyamuni, Padmasmbhava, Karma Pakshi, Drukpa Kunley and other great realised beings. There are also many reports of quite recent "miracles" performed by various teachers. I seem to remember that Namkhai Norbu in "Crystal and the way of light" wrote about historical cases of Illusory Body in 1950s in China. And then we have numerous recollection of people who met 16th Karmapa - his drivers, attendants, students, passers-by - all telling a similar story.

Ole's recollections of 16th Karmapa are not that unusual. I cannot comment on whether what allegedly happened to Ole later (near-accidents on bike, climbing fall in the Table Mountains, parachute mishap) is factual. I was not there and will not speculate. My gut feel is that Ole is incapable of deliberate lying so this is really not an issue with me. If my connection with Buddhism depended on whether Ole Nydahl really saw Lopon Tsechu dissolve into space then I would drill deeper but it does not.

Re: 16th Karmapa "promoting" Ole there apparently was a letter he wrote to the Danish Queen when he sent Ole and Hannah to teach Buddhism in Europe. I understand that Ole and Hannah, upon returning to Denmark in 1970s, were granted audience with the Queen and handed the letter in. I also understand that 16th Karmapa paid two visits to Europe where he was hosted and driven around by Nydahls. This goes some way to answering your question whether 16th Karmapa supported Ole's work in Europe.

Cheers

Thanks for your post Vdesign


It is interesting to note that this letter hasn’t been published by the DWB. Just the sharmapa letter regarding Ole’s lama status. Even if the karmapa endosed Nydalh at one point this doesn’t excuse his today’s behaviour. It is one thing to have organised the karmapa’s visit in the 70s and another to claim all sort of miraculous things.
Miracles are common in Tibetan Buddhism; they are also common in the Islamic and catholic world. They are even more common in Hinduism and the guru movements.
Basically the more you encourage blind devotion is encouraged the more miracle claims you will get.
DW teachings are light on the intellectual and fascinating aspect of Buddhism and heavy on the guru devotion.
I haven’t heard someone like Robert Thurman claiming all sorts of things. He’s a close friend and collaborator of the Dalai Lama as well as a respected university scholar, he was also the first US citizen to be ordained monk in the 60’s. No dodgy claims about himself or the Dalai Lama, no hard to back up support or allegations about sexual misconduct or racist views. He just teaches the dharma and the cannons of the Sanskrit, Pali and Tibetan Buddhist literature. Period. Nobody calls him lama either. Do you see the difference?
The shamarpa issued a letter about Ole’s lack of qualification and his self appointed title of “lama” This was not much to start with but now it seems in the view of the recent exchange of letters it seems that the relationship has soured. The karmapa controversy has cool down somehow and I guess the shamarpa doesn’t want to be associated anymore with Ole in the view of the recent allegations against DWB.

Regarding the racist claims I think these go beyond standard islamophobia, just read “Entering the Diamond Way” and the ludicrous comments about “hopeless” Africa where foreign help are being wasted and “the regions surrounding the Equator” (sic) where people with bad karma are being reborn, the over population of Asia and the lack of natural selection caused by the use of penicillin and the automatic rifles… And the Buddha with blue eyes and fair hair whose Aryan ancestors where coming from Ukraine…Why not Denmark? :) Are all of these simplistic and unproven facts really essential in a book about an introduction to Tibetan Buddhism?

Hi Herbie.

If you wish to leave DWB then just stop attending. I personally have not been harrassed by anyone from DWB since I was "shown the door". In my case I was told that it might be best if I took my practice elsewhere because I didn't see Ole Nydahl as my root lama.

I have been told by founders of another centre that not holding Nydahl as my root lama should not exclude me from a Diamond Way centre but the founder of the Liverpool centre saw things differently.

So I guess each centre will have a different view on your decicions to practice elsewhere. I think it is best to leave offering your sincere best wishes to all concerned within DWB.

For all of his foibles Nydahl does give many people their first taste of Buddhism and for this fact alone I can't harbour any ill will to him. In fact I do respect him for this one thing.

If they wish to know your reasons for leaving then be honest. If this causes some anger and resentment then this is their problem not your. I wouldn't offer any explanation.

As Kate has said I have heard statements such as 'not being ready', 'afraid of freedom', 'mentally ill', 'having ego problems' or being a 'confusion type' being made of people who question Nydahl.

As for trying to open the eyes of others..... karma dictates that this will only happen when the conditions for such a realisation come together. Your posts and the posts of others on this web site provide enough information to hopefully help individuals cast a critical eye on any DWB. After this they are free to choose to follow DWB or not.

Hi Herbie

I heard Ole ask people to promise to defend the Dharma against Islam several times. I just made a promise to myself to "defend" the Dharma whatever defend means. I prefer to think of it as passing on the Dharma rather than defending it. So I think a promise to yourself to help preserve the teachings so others might benefit I think is OK.

But I completely understand your concern and am always impressed when someone uses their own critical thinking rather than follow like a sheep.

One of the first courses I attended was the inauguration of the stupa in Benalmadena. I refused to go and take a blessing off Ole and the pressure I was place under was unacceptable. People I didn't know were touching my head with mala's and other buddhist trinkets, I guess in an attempt to pass on some mystical blessing?

I refused several times and in the end I applied the following logic; that unless I went and experienced a blessing from Nydahl that I was in no position to cast a judgement on his alleged "powerfield". So I decided to take the experiential approach and recieved blessings from him, several times, to see what all the fuss was about.

I know very little about Kalachakra I'm afraid. Sorry I can't be of any help there.

As for finding teachers.....

At a course some years ago, (actually on an occassion when I travelled with Nydahl to check him out up close) I met Sharma Rinpoche. I have to say it was an experience that still touches me to this very day. Since then I have regarded Sharmapa (and of course Karmapa) as my teacher. He has Bodhi Path centres in Switzerland, France, Italy and Germany. He might be worth checking out. A root lama is a very personal thing and requires patience and critical wisdom. I wish you much luck on your search.

Your observation about DWB lacking truly independent and critical thinking people does appear to have a great deal of truth in it. I did meet several critical thinkers, even critical of Nydahls Islamic rants, who just never challenged him or his devotees. I can only speculate as to why but it still strikes me as strange as to why they would oppose his sweeping views on Islam but still attend his Dharma talks? Nydahl himself often states that when he's not teaching, his political views are his own and his students need not follow his advice. But as his anti-Islamic speeches are normally delivered in the middle of a Dharma talk it is difficult for students to know what is Dharma and what are his own personal views?

Sadly critical thinking is discouraged when used to examine Nydahls statements. His word is to be taken as unquestionable truth within DWB. It doesn't matter how many times he says he wants independent, critical thinking students what is really required within DWB are unquestioning devotees. My own experience of being told to take my practice elsewhere due to my doubts about Nydahl illustrate this point clearly.

In response to vdesign.

I would have to say that from my investigation that Nydahl did indeed have the support of 16th Karmapa and was encouraged to offer Kagyu teachings to those who had no previous knowledge.

I will however temper this by saying that most of the documented evidence of this support is to be found in the self penned accounts of Nydahl himself in his books. If someone has independent evidence to support Nydahls claims I'd be interested is reading it. But my doubts about DWB and Nydahl do not centre around this claim.

I also agree with your point about not needing to believe in miracles as a condition for your/our connection to Buddhism. I do however feel that there is an over emphasis upon these stories coming from Nydahl and consequently I have, on many occassions, had his students recount these stories of miracles to me in an attempt to "blow away" my doubts and critical assessment of him. When I explain that without having had first hand experience of these miracles themselves then they might be better to regard them with some objective scepticism I have been rebuked for showing a lack of repect and devotion.

I do not understand what purpose stories of miracles have in our search for truth?

As for Nydahl being "incapable of deliberate lying"? We are all capable of a deliberate lie. Do not delude yourself otherwise. What I think Nydahl is guilty of is embellishing the truth in order to illustrate a point or to impress upon his students his own enthusiasm for Buddha's teachings (I do not doubt his passion for Dharma). The danger of this is that his students then assume the development of supernatural powers is the goal of Dharma practice.

Hi Alchi and SteveLpool,

Thanks for your well reasoned posts. I am offering some comments on your recent contributions.

Firstly the official support for Ole’s effort over the years by Tibetan hierarchy is not limited to “the shamarpa letter”. The official endorsements I can think of are:
1. Letter by Karmapa to the Danish Queen
2. First letter by Shamarpa
3. Introduction to Ole’s “Ngondro” book by Goshir Gyaltsap
4. I seem to remember intro to another of Ole’s books by Tai Situ (not 100% sure though)
5. Letter by Khenpo Choedrak
6. Second letter by Shamarpa
7. Long life prayer and many public statements of full support by Lopon Tsechu
8. Statements of (general) support by 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje
I am not saying that the official endorsement is all that important but if one mounts argument based on lack thereof then perhaps it is worth setting the record straight. Alchi’s reference to Shamarpa’s “letter about Ole’s lack of qualification and his self appointed title of lama” is rather confused. The letter clearly states the exact opposite i.e. confirms Ole’s credentials and the legitimacy of his “lama” title.

Re: “miracles” performed by HHDL I have heard of quite a few (chasing away swarm of bees, stopping forest fire, protecting village from elephants etc). These stories may not have come from Robert Thurman but probably from HHDL’s other students.

Steve’s mention of the value of first hand experience prompts me to recall what I actually saw some time ago. I am simply relating the situations I was close to.

In early 1990s I took phowa from Ole at a rural location in Poland. It was a miserable wet summer but somehow rain did not interfere with the proceedings. On the last day of the course I noticed that a group of local farmers with families occupied the back rows. This was quite unusual in a staunchly catholic country but I have not thought much of it. I later learned that the local farmers were the only ones in a large area who did not lose potato crop to rot – it rained everywhere but within a few km’s of the phowa tent. After a week of watching the wall of rain in the distance they decided to check out what went on in the tent. I saw a similar phenomenon when Ole’s plane was touching down in 1990s – a clearing over the airport in fully overcast skies for miles around.

Around 1996 I helped to organise Ole’s visit and after public talk the group drove my car to another place some 350km away. On the way the front wheel fell off. Those who know Ole’s style of driving must realise that this could have been serious if not fatal. However, the wheel fell off as they approached a settlement and had to reduce speed to 50km/h. The car rolled/slid for a while and came to a stop outside mechanical workshop. 30 minutes later they were back on their way. This is the story as I got it from all four people who were in the car. And yes, the damage to the car was consistent with the story.

I do not think these stories prove anything or are even particularly important in a wider context but this is what I personally witnessed. What does it have to do with search for the truth? Well, this is the truth – it has happened! Has it changed my life? Nope. Has it inspired me to confront my ego? Maybe.

I am also happy to share my views on the more controversial aspects of DW and will do so (unless culled by RR).

Cheers,

There appear to be two issues with Ole’s contentious statements about Islam, sex, homosexuals, Africa etc. Firstly – are these statements verifiable/objective/factual/true and, secondly – is it acceptable to publicly voice these views? I will start by dissecting what Ole says about homosexualism.

Whenever asked Ole proclaims to be completely heterosexual and thus having little first hand experience in the subject matter. When pressed he usually adds that according to Buddha’s teachings one is born gay as a result of bad relationships with the opposite sex in past lives. Ole also usually explains that one’s sexual orientation is not that important as all beings can attain Enlightenment. He basically presents homosexuality as just another karmic condition which has a cause and can be worked with on the way to recognising the nature of mind.

You may ask what the big deal is? Well, Ole gets caned by gay organisations for judgementally attributing homosexual tendencies to bad actions in past lives. But this is a complete misunderstanding of Buddha’s teachings! We are ALL reborn humans as a result of confused actions, predominantly driven by desire. The Buddha even gave guided tours of samsara to his students explaining why kings, beggars, lepers were reborn the way they were. His teachings are full of comments on causes of particular karmic dispositions. As in: short life (through illness, abortion or accident) as a result of killing others, inherited wealth as a result of generosity etc. My favourite one is bad mouth odour as a result of bad-mouthing others. The reason that people with bad mouth odour are not up in arms about this claim is that, unlike gays, they do not fight (as a group) for social recognition.

So are Ole’s statements about homosexualism true? According to Buddha’s teachings – yes. Are they socially acceptable? Well, is it acceptable to say that the aborted had once killed others? That those born into poverty once were wealthy but did not share? You be the judge.

Cheers,

In the last days I tried to think more abot what kind of group dynamics is going on in the sangha with the example of Ole's
rants on Islam. I am curious about your views on my analysis. Maybe it leads to possible strategies to overcome some
of these problems within DWB, at least in the long term:

I think the members of DW can be grouped into four categories:

1. Those who always had the same views and feelings about Islam before entering DWB.
-> no problem for them, they will immediately feel comfortable there.
2. Those who had other views before but are easily convinced by Ole to take another view.
-> maybe short period of feeling unsure, then feeling comfortable after adopting Ole's view.
3. Those with other views but who would not let convince themselves by Ole to change their view.

Group three may be divided in two subgroups:
3a. Those who remain in the sangha with constant bad feelings about it.
3b. Those who take the consequence and leave immediately or after some time.

I guess these categories apply to different aspects than just the topic on Islam.

I would estimate that cat. 2 dominates the sangha but I know there are a lot who belong to 3a as well. And
I feel sorry for them because they are in a constant moral conflict about staying or leaving because of that.

Which brings me to Ole's role here:

There are two possiblities (maybe more but these are the ones coming to my mind):

a. Ole has no clue about all this happening.
b. Ole is aware of it but accepts it happening.

I think a. is more likely. This would questions his "awareness" of everything. But thats what people always
claim in saying Ole knows so much and is aware of so much, he must be aware of things we do not see.
Independent on the way you lok at it: It questions his awareness and thus his trustworthiness in the role he has taken.
If b. would be the case that would even more question his trustworthiness in my point of view.
I would be really curious how he would respond if someone would challenge him with this (if my perception is correct)!

Hi vdesign.

Thanks you for your post. I am aware that a letter from Sharmapa states that "it is absolutely appropriate for Lama Ole Nydahl to hold the title of Lama" so I would have to say that Alchi's comment is a little confusing.

Thanks for recounting your experiences of Nydahl's miracles. I apprecitate that these are your own personal experiences and I do respect your views regarding these. For me these are weather phenomena and I'm sure are easliy explained... much like I consider rainbows to be weather phenomena and not a display of a teachers powerfield or other mystical influence. I saw a rainbow around the sun when attending a course with Karmapa. This is known as a sun dog and they are quite common. The people on the course saw this a miraculous sign and I was ridiculed for pointing out it was common weather phenomena. These people are free to choose what they believe. I choose this forum to offer what a I hope is a balanced arguement.

The whole debate could be settled if these "miracles" could be performed at will in the presence of scientists under controlled conditions. I may not have the facts 100% right but James Randi has a metal bar in a glass case and has offered a 1 million dollar prize to any psychic who can bend it with the power of their mind. This prize has gone unclaimed for nearly 30 years and I believe many have tried.

From your posts you come across as a reasonable DWB practitioner so I would like to ask you for your opinion on several matters.

I have already stated in previous posts that I agree with Nydahl's criticism of radical Islam. Where I have problems are with the generalised comments which demonise all Muslims. This does bother me. But what alarms me the most is the fact that these statements seem to attract students who are clearly racist. I know because I sat and argued with many of them. Travelling teachers who spoke of blowing mosques up with Muslims in them or commenting on how "black people serve no useful purpose within out societies". I promise you these conversations took place.

At a course in London a year and a half ago a group of his students were queuing with their children for blessing when Nydahl announced over the mic, "it's good to see you people having babies otherwise our western cities would start to look like Africa". I thought the use of the word "look" was quite significant.

So I wanted to ask what you thought about Nydahl's comments on people of colour and also if you think that the travelling teachers statements, and indeed the racist rants I've heard from a significant number of his students, have an place within a Dharma setting?

Thanks for your contribution to the debate thus far.

Steve