thanks Alchi - that is a very good point.

equally, to address Ole's quote that,""The Abrahamic religions, the ones that follow our constitution, treat women well, don't blow up people ... Judaism and Christianity are fine...."

1. there have been many campaigns in Europe highlightling domestic violence - aimed at caucasian Europeans. Clearly, violence against women is an issue and a concern which is much closer to home than Ole would like to admit.

2. there is currently in the news a lot about the issue of women bishops in the Church of England - clearly the issue of gender equality in these religions is not as clear cut as Ole makes out.

3. there have been many terrorist bombing campaigns by Christians - having lived in the UK during several IRA terrorist campaigns, I can only imagine that either Ole is suffering some kind of memory loss, or else his knowlegde of recent history is woeful.

4. the majority of weapons, artillery, land mines, etc. are manfactured and employed by members of these Abrahamic religions - one only has to look to the current situation in the middle east to see the indiscriminate shelling used by the Israelis, and the almost blanket condemnation of the Israeli blockade of the Gaza strip, even by their closest allies the United States.


So, to further Alchi's point, there seems to be a gross generalisation about them and us - black and white - guilty and innocent, which is naive to the point of stupidity. This serves to externalise all the ills of the world and project it onto a convenient scapegoat - no wonder Ole has no perception of any problems closer to home, he is too busy blaming others and pointing the finger.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 10:02PM by suenam.

I am brand new here and I spent the best part of yesterday reading this whole thread. I am not a member of the DW, I am the head of a Buddhist center from another Tibetan tradition. Being in a position to counsel former students of his and having done that for more than 10 years I can say that everything written about Ole Nyidahl and his organization is unfortunately true. In my country we have had problems with his organization for many, many years. His "teachings" are completely distorted and basically have nothing to do with authentic Kagyu Dharma. His followers are utterly ignorant of the Buddhist doctrine and are totally brainwashed. As was said earlier in the thread those who can get off early are the lucky ones. Those who stay for some reason or another seem to be hooked for life and no trace of reason is left in them. They become like machines, rambling about "unconditional love", "boundless mind" over and over, while becoming true extremists in views and staying deaf to the world outside.

Nydahl is no doubt an excellent organizer and manipulator. It is so sad what is happening in the world of Tibetan Buddhism these days. There are still a handful of genuine lamas in all four traditions, but the likes of Ole Nydahl and Sogyal are designing huge Dharma corporations and are starting to define Buddhism for westerners. At least Sogyal is inviting genuine teachers to teach at Rikpa. Nydahl on the other hand is creating a very powerful organization which has nothing to do with Buddhism and which is becoming very dangerous. Ignorance on such a big scale is always very dangerous. Now he seems to be breaking up with Shamarpa, who was the last anchor of tradition for him. The Young Thaye Dorje is no match for Ole. How very sad!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2010 10:43PM by Ayushman.

Hi Ayushman.

I just wanted to comment on your post and ask a couple of questions related to it.

As for Diamond Way Buddhism (I think it is DWB you refer to when you mention "a very powerful organiztion") having nothing to do with Buddhism isn't entirely true. I came into contact with some increadible teachers, Karmapa Thaye Dorje and Sharma Rinpoche to mention just two but also had the opportunity to sit and discuss dharma with visiting khenpo's. I also have to say that the meditation methods I was given do appear to have had a beneficial effect upon how I experience my life.

I will qualify your comment by saying that I also came into contact with many practitioners who had no understanding of basic dharma and were only able to regurgitate Nydahl's "vox pop" statements without really having an idea how it relates to dharma.

My experience within the group I attended in Liverpool was that several of the attendees did have a deep understanding of the dharma. But this was developed out of their own commitment and wish to develop and benefit others and was not encouraged by the leaders of the group. Nydahl's students who founded the centre never really encouraged attendees to study dharma books other than those by Nydahl (although the library does contain books by Kagyu masters). Students are encouraged to give 10 minute talks on a dharma point from one of Nydahls books. In fact there is an unhealthy emphasis placed upon reading Nydahl's materials.

So the short response to your statement about DWB having nothing to do with Buddhism is; there are genuine practitioners within DWB who have the intelligence to see through Nydahl's organization and use the experience in a way that is beneficial to them.

You say that you have had problems with DWB "in your country" for many years. Can I ask which country this is? It's just that I have speculated why I think there is a strong right wing element from Nydahl's eastern European students and am interested to know if this also attracts students in different countries?

Also I am curious as to the kinds of things you have had to counsel ex-DWB members on. I think it would benefit anyone considering attending DWB groups if they had an idea of the kinds of things to be wary of.

Thanks

Quote
SteveLpool

You say that you have had problems with DWB "in your country" for many years. Can I ask which country this is? It's just that I have speculated why I think there is a strong right wing element from Nydahl's eastern European students and am interested to know if this also attracts students in different countries?

Yes, we are in Eastern Europe. You may have a point here, but I have heard these same stories from all over Europe.

Quote

Also I am curious as to the kinds of things you have had to counsel ex-DWB members on. I think it would benefit anyone considering attending DWB groups if they had an idea of the kinds of things to be wary of.

Thanks

The shift from Ole Nydahl's version of Dharma to the traditional Tibetan way of studying and practicing Dharma (be it Kagyu, Nyingma or whatever) is extremely hard for most people. Some go as far as to request refuge again. It usually takes several years of heavy damage control. People who manage to get out of his organization usually experience a limbo for quite a long time since developing trust again is (understandably) difficult for them. It is the same with any cult, of course.

As for learned people inside his organization, well, there are some people who have read books. But no sane person who really starts to study with genuine teachers will stay there and such people just leave the organization. Those who stay are not that learned at all. Otherwise they would not be there. But yes, there are people there who think they know everything. The same way Ole is convinced that he knows what it is all about. It is a self defeating situation.

You mention Shamarpa as a genuine teacher, which he certainly is, but you are probably aware that the way his own centers are running is very much traditional and has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in the DW centers. And, as I mentioned, it is obvious that Ole feels that he is powerful enough by now to even give him ultimatums. Well, nothing good will come out of this, for sure.

Ayushman, what you described here is very interesting, as it suggests a very great difference between what people learned whilst at DW and what they find they must learn and practice when shifting into traditional Tibetan methods of studying and practicing Dharma.

Quote

The shift from Ole Nydahl's version of Dharma to the traditional Tibetan way of studying and practicing Dharma (be it Kagyu, Nyingma or whatever) is extremely hard for most people. Some go as far as to request refuge again. It usually takes several years of heavy damage control.

If you could describe this in more detail, it might be very helpful for readers following this thread.

1) Are there areas where ex-DW students find they were well prepared?

2) Are there areas where ex-DW students find that essential elements were left out or taught to them inaccurately?

(For example, do ex-DW people discover any differences between what they were told about the Bodhisattva Precepts in DW vs the traditional Tibetan paths? )

3)If this can be done without disclosing personal details, what has lead some ex-DW persons to request taking refuge again after leaving DW and embarking upon traditional Tibetan Dharma study and practice?

4) Are there areas where former DW students typically find themselves surprised or dismayed after they begin traditional practice and study in Tibetan Buddhism?

5) Do DW students begin guru yoga with the necessary foundational instruction and practice experience vs traditional Tibetan Yoga Paths? As in do they do this earlier than is customary or later than customary?

An analysis of all this published either here, or elsewhere on the web might be helpful to other ex-DW students.

Well, I didn't plan on writing much here, but I will try to help in the shortest way possible.

Quote
corboy

1) Are there areas where ex-DW students find they were well prepared?

Not really. Most of what they know is from Ole Nydahl's books, and there is not much Dharma there, if at all.

Quote

2) Are there areas where ex-DW students find that essential elements were left out or taught to them inaccurately?

In pretty much every field of Buddhist knowledge. They know next to nothing about the traditional Kagyu teachings and absolutely nothing about the other lineages of Tibetan Buddhism. They also have no idea what it means to be a Dharma practitioner form a traditional point of view. They have no background in basic Buddhist philosophy; they know nothing about Madhyamaka or the sutra teachings in general, and they know nothing of the traditional meditation systems and cycles connected to the development & completion stages of Anuttara. And, they know nothing about Mahamudra - neither the sutra system of Gampopa, nor the tantric Mahamudra system of the Indian siddhas. They have no real knowledge about the six yogas of Naropa. They have heard some things related to the phowa Ole teaches, but this is a whole new topic and I better not start it here. Anyway, they basically have no clue about any of the core doctrines of their own school.

Quote

(For example, do ex-DW people discover any differences between what they were told about the Bodhisattva Precepts in DW vs the traditional Tibetan paths? )

They are not taught the Bodhisattva precepts. In fact they are taught no precepts. If you ask an average DW student about the upasaka vows he/she would not have a clue of what you are talking about. Some people these days start to lean these things from Shamarpa and some other teachers but the general situation is a disaster. Ole Nydahl himself does not know anything about the Bodhisattva vehicle. He has never, ever given a teaching on bohichitta in his entire career.

Quote

3)If this can be done without disclosing personal details, what has lead some ex-DW persons to request taking refuge again after leaving DW and embarking upon traditional Tibetan Dharma study and practice?

They just realize that they are making contact with Dharma for the first time, so some are requesting refuge. Apart from that over the years I have seen several Tibetan teachers who customarily give refuge on their own accord to people who come from DW. Honestly, to me this seems quite proper.

Quote

4) Are there areas where former DW students typically find themselves surprised or dismayed after they begin traditional practice and study in Tibetan Buddhism?

They usually are quite shocked when they learn about the amount of information, teaching and practices they have been denied access to.

Quote

5) Do DW students begin guru yoga with the necessary foundational instruction and practice experience vs traditional Tibetan Yoga Paths? As in do they do this earlier than is customary or later than customary?

Guru Yoga is a tantric practice and in a certain way it can be said that this is the core practice on the Mahamudra and Dzogchen paths. Traditionally this practice is connected to samaya and if we want to be strict, people should do it after forming a samaya relationship with the lineage and a tantric master through a major Anuttara level Abisheka. This is the way it has usually been done in the Kagyu and Nyingma traditions. Nothing like this is happening in DW. These people have no clue about samaya or transmission. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Guru Yoga of the 16 Karmapa is harmful done without a link to the lineage blessings. There could probably be some therapeutic relative benefit. However, this is not Guru Yoga, it is just some form of new age self hypnosis.

Quote

An analysis of all this published either here, or elsewhere on the web might be helpful to other ex-DW students.

Maybe, but what really would be helpful to them is to go and talk with some of the genuine Karma Kagyu teachers of the older generation - not about Ole Nydahl, but about the Kagyu doctrine and the traditional stages of the path. If they do that they will find themselves most surprised.

Hi Ayushman.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate that you do not wish to write in great detail but wnat to thank you for your insights.

In hindsight reading my post it may appear that I suggest that racism is rife in eastern Europe. I wish to clarify this by saying that my main contact with eastern Europeans was through DWB and I met many who held extremely racist views. I do not wish to suggest that this mindset is common amongst eastern Europeans and I apologise if my comment appears to suggest this. What I am suggesting is that Nydahl's opinions on race and colour may well appeal to those members of society who harbour racist views which is why I came into contact with many such individuals at DWB events. I am aware of many in the UK who also harbour racist views and they are not exclusive to DWB.

I think your comments about people finding the shift from Nydahl's version of dharma to the traditional Tibetan methodology and of people finding themselves in "limbo" after leaving DWB are very insightful.

My own experience backs this up. I have struggled to maintain a regular practice since leaving DWB and limit myself to shinay practice and studying genuine teachings from the books of Kagyu masters (I never read Nydahl's books more than once anyway). This may be due in part to the fact that there are no Bodhi Path centres in the UK and I refuse to continue to follow the DWB curriculum. Can you tell us how DWB meditations fall short of the potential of the meditations given by Sharma Rinpoche for example? At first glance there appears to be very little difference in the text for the Vajrasattva meditation between Sharmapa's booklets and Nydahl's. In what way are DWB meditations harmful for practitioners?

I do have Sharma Rinpoche's daily practice program but admit I do struggle with the shift from Nydahl's approach. For myself I feel I must go through a period of "cleansing" before I can fully apply myself to a committed daily practice. It has only been 8 months since I left DWB.

Personally I have no problem with developing trust for genuine dharma. I put this down to the fact that I never had any trust in Nydahl during my seven year involvement. I remained critical and always deferred to the wisdom of Sharma Rinpoche, Karmapa and the books of genuine Kagyu masters. I also stayed with them, and even lived in the Liverpool centre for a year, with the intention of making sure new comers had a balanced introduction to the dharma rather than the heavy emphasis on Nydahl's version. I only encouraged practitoners to read the books of other Kagyu teachers and was always open and honest about my experiences of Nydahl and his followers.

I suspect that the people I refer to as having an interest in genuine dharma practice only stay there because there are no other groups nearby they can attend. At least non with the same level of organization as DWB. The centre I attended was good at organizing events. Shortly after I was told to take my practice elsewhere due to my lack of trust in Nydahl the centre held a meeting. I asked those present to raise their hands if they regarded Nydahl as their teacher. Not one person raised their hand. So I think in Liverpool the centre is populated with people who remain critical but attend as there is no sensible alternative.

In my opinion the founders of the centre in Liverpool had certainly read a lot and were able to regurgitate what they had read. But I saw little evidence of them actually putting their dharma to practice for the benefit of others. The emphasis within DWB is on building centres, it's more about quantity than quality.

I also think that Nydahl delivering ultimatums to Sharmapa does not bode well for the future! I suspect that both Sharmapa and Karmapa will continue to put some distance between DWB and themselves. I fear it won't be long before DWB centres will have no Karmapa to align themselves to.

Many bows, Ayushman

For further reading

Bodhichitta

[www.berzinarchives.com]

[www.google.com]

Bodhisattva Vow

[www.berzinarchives.com]


Dr Berzin lists stages of Bodhichitta. Dont be dismayed. As we begin, we learn the alphabet.

All this is to provide a context for current and former DW members

Next, words. Then composition of sentences.

It is a natural progression.

Dear Steve, it's Shamar Rinpoche, not Sharma Rinpoche. Shamarpa. Please get this right.

The problem in Eastern Europe is not racism at all. People in this part of the world are quite tolerant in fact. The only problem here is just that very few genuine teachers come, so there is a great lack of authentic information about the Buddhadharma. Hence, frauds like Mr. Nydahl can recruit and can present their views and teachings without any concern of being exposed. That is what is going on.

Quote

Can you tell us how DWB meditations fall short of the potential of the meditations given by Sharma Rinpoche for example? At first glance there appears to be very little difference in the text for the Vajrasattva meditation between Sharmapa's booklets and Nydahl's. In what way are DWB meditations harmful for practitioners?

Well, all these practices are connected to Vajrayana. The only entrance into Vajrayana on this level is through receiving Abhisheka. There is no Vajrasattva practice, or any other tantric practice without such an empowerment. It is not particularly harmful doing the DW practices (although certain practices could be), it is just plain useless. Wangdrag had explained all this in detail earlier in the thread. He seems to me to be quite knowledgeable, please look at his posts. Ole Nydahl can not give any abhisheka since he is not qualified at all. In fact if the rumors that he has started giving Kalachakra initiation reach the years of the senior Tibetan Lamas they would probably not believe it. It would be a huge scandal.

I don't want to be a bad prophet but the time when Ole Nydhal will announce independence is clearly approaching. He probably will establish a school of his own in one way or another. He just has to figure out a way to present his falling off with Shamarpa to his students. This might prove quite difficult but I have no doubt that he will succeed. Shamar Rinpoche made a very bad judgment associating himself with Ole. It was probably all about the money and influence in the West, combined with certain noble intentions to save his students. I am sure the situation is very painful for him right now, but he can't win. Neither can Thaye Dorje. The latter will either become a puppet of Ole, or be left completely alone, with no significant support neither in the West, nor in Asia.

All in all, my personal advice for people trying to practice Kagyu at this point is to look at the other branches of the tradition - the Shangpa Kagyu and especially Drukpa Kagyu. The fact is that there currently are so many broken samayas in the Karma Kagyu because of the Karmapa controversy, that the whole lineage is on the verge of collapse.

The Upasaka Vows

Quote

. When lay people practice meditation, it is good to have taken the five-layperson vows, which in Sanskrit are called the upasaka vows.

These are to avoid:

killing
stealing
lying
harming others sexually
and drinking alcohol and taking drugs.

From

Seven Points on Meditation by Kunzig Shamar Rinpoche

Published in Buddhism Today Volume 1 & 2, 1996

[www.dhagpo-kagyu.org]

(entire article is a helpful overview and written by a Kagyu)



[www.dhagpo-kagyu.org]