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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 25, 2021 05:54AM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here is the video compilation of his lectures by
> Radhika Bianchi.
>
> [m.youtube.com]

Subjects are much more longer.

Each of the topics discussed requires much more explanation than just the abbreviated passages from A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. There is a question of audience knowledge and understanding from the point of view of psychology, systems analysis, and history.

I will comment:

1) Rape

Rape is not justified, it is not compatible with universal moral values. In contrast, perversion occurs in people's sexual behavior. No sexual arousal, burnout. People like variety. Sadomasochism from the Marquis de Sade or whatever it was for him. The stimulus is given by ideas which are then put into practice. In various pseudo-domination systems. One of the elements of prostitutes' offers is domination.

In turn, the mechanisms of the mind cause some form of rape to excite either party in the short term. Also the dominant side. There is a scene in the Polish movie "Popioly" / "The Ashes"

[en.wikipedia.org])

where the legendary beauty Pola Raksa plays a character who, after being raped, throws herself into the abyss. From the director's explanation of this scene, you can learn that his suggestion or expectation was for the actor to play a sensual / psychological conflict, where, having obtained denied or unwanted pleasure from rape she decides to choose suicide.

I also know the history oh one of the familiar wives who, bored with their sexual life with her spouse, cheating on him during an argument and a fight, felt an excitement towards her neglected husband.

2) Caring for women

Basically the social mechanisms are such that single women in certain social settings are victims of different behaviors. Disturbed self-esteem, low assessment of the environment, etc. In some more patriarchal cultures. But also in modern, corporate ones. I know stories from my friends where they told how in a corporation promotions were dependent on sexual relations with a group holding power. Trips were arranged, where the next victim received flowers and declarations of love during the game from one of the bosses at an alcohol company party. But it was just a game. In a hotel room, she was beaten, with bruises on her chest and her hair torn out. The whole situation and addictions made the corporate security services reluctant to take up the topic. And we are talking about a woman of recognized, outstanding intelligence, who was a well-known personality.

I also know the story of the rebellious wife of one of the devotee, who engaged in adultery breaking up or harming the welfare of at least three families. Of course, some psychology expert could explain in as a poor relation with mother.

3) Black race

The subject of the black race is long. For various reasons, there are wars in Africa and the economies are not as developed as in Europe. To a large extent, the cycle of seasons forced the inhabitants of a temperate climate to develop agriculture, housing, etc. In turn, the black continent was exploited by Europeans for many years, and colonies, for example, in the Congo, existed until 1960.

4) Dictator

Historical experience shows that an efficient ruler is more effective than the so-called democracy, an oligarchized state, etc. The oligarchs, having their own interests, succumbed to the influence of foreign states and magnates. In Polish history, the key words include liberum veto, i.e. the possibility of a complete disorganization of the parliament. Or "Swedish Deluge" where prince Boguslaw Radziwil, Swedish field marshal was considered a traitor and "Swedish Deluge" one of the greatest social and economic catastrophes in Poland. In turn, examples of great successes are, for example, the king of Poland, Stefan Batory, who was Hungarian. Or Jan III Sobieski, interestingly, surrendered initially to the protection of the King of Sweden. But ultimately he is known as the winner of the Battle of Vienna, where he himself lead the hussars charge and in 20 minutes of final strike destroyed the army of the Ottoman Empire.

Importantly, the victory was not used politically. So being an effective war leader does not mean perfecting in peacetime.

Another example is Marshal J. Pilsudski. Thanks to which Poland regained independence, and to whom the victory in the Battle of Warsaw (Miracle at Vistula) is credited with, that is, the defeat of the Red Army led by Marshal Tukhachevski. Poland was previously under three partitions - Prussian (German), Austrian and Russian.

On the other hand, during peace, the interwar period, that is before the Second World War, he was no longer able to control the situation of internal partyisation.

Another example is the leader and dictator Josip Broz Tito, the dictator of Yugoslavia who was able to cope with both in times of war and in peacetime. In occupied Yugoslavia, a mixture of South Slavic nations and religions (Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam) there were many factions and military groups, including the cruel Ustaše who defeated even the Nazis with their cruelty.

Josip Broz Tito, a Croat by his father, a Slovene by his mother, commanded an army of 800,000 at a critical moment. Thanks to this, most of Yugoslavia was liberated by its own inhabitants, and the Red Army of the USSR (Jozef Stalin, Iosif Vissarionovich Dzugashvili) had only a small share.Which made Yugoslavia much more independent of the USSR and Stalin than, for example, Poland or the GDR.

As a dictator, he ensured a long period of prosperity to the peoples of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia has never been very dominated by the USSR or by Western states.

After Tito's death and the collapse of the USSR, the countries of the former Yugoslavia, under the influence of many foreign agents and interests, plunged into chaos and fratricidal war.

5) Hitler and the Jews

This topic is also much longer. Hitler received power with the support of the Weimar Republic elite or representatives of big industry because of, among others, the threat from communism which spread in Europe and after 1917 the communists had full power in the USSR - the Bolsheviks got rid of the Mensheviks and Socialist Revolutionaries. Hitler was also supported by, for example, Americans, for example H. Ford. The Third Reich received financial support until 1942.

When it comes to murdered Jews in Poland or in Europe, a large part of them was poor. As Polish archives show, rich Jews treated this poor with contempt and disgust, they were ashamed of them. And they, in turn, were strongly integrated with the Polish community, often having Polish features.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2021 05:56AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 25, 2021 06:15AM

Another interesting example of a dictator was Enver Hoxha. Albania's dictator.

Josip Broz Tito believed that Albania was too small a country to remain independent. Enver Hoxha, not wanting to succumb to Yugoslav domination, took - surprisingly - Joseph Stalin and the USSR as his patron. At one point, this arrangement became uncomfortable and there was an Albanian-Soviet split, and Enver Hoxha adopted People's China as his big brother. This political friendship also ended - the Albanian-Chinese split, where Enver Hoxha announced that the Chinese had betrayed the ideals of communism and that it only exists in Albania.

Importantly, Enver Hoxha is known to significantly improve the position of women in Albania, who, especially in Islamic environments, had a position not much better than that of pets.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2021 06:35AM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 25, 2021 05:49PM

A good film showing the realities of Africa is the cult "Black Hawk Down". The dictator Mohammad Farrah Aidid - Polish wiki describes him:

Quote

Somali military commander, often described as a chief general and diplomat and chairman of the United Somali Congress (USC), later chaired the Somali National Alliance (SNA). Along with other armed opposition groups, he led the regime of President Mohamed Siad Barre out of Mogadishu, the Somali capital, during the civil war that broke out in Somalia in the early 1990s.

Quote

In 1992, Aidid questioned the presence of the United Nations and the United States military in Somalia. He was one of the main targets of Operation Restore Hope ("The Hope Restored"). It was a joint humanitarian operation by the United Nations and the United States, which tried to break the military siege in the country. After the end of operations, forcing UN forces to leave the country in 1995, Aidid himself appointed himself president of Somalia for several months, until his death the following year, 1996.

Aidid was born in 1934 in Beledweyne, into the Somali Habar Gidir clan, part of the larger Hawiye group. He was educated in Rome and Moscow. He served in the Italian colonial police in 1950. He later joined the Somali National Army [1]. Improving his military skills, Aidid studied at the Frunze Military Academy in the former USSR , an elite institution reserved for the most qualified officers of the Warsaw Pact troops and their allies [2].

Quote

General Aidid's son, Hussein Mohamed Farrah, immigrated to the United States at the age of 17. During his 16-year stay in the country, he eventually became a citizen of the country and then a US Navy soldier who served in Somalia. Two days after his father's death, the National Somali Alliance declared Hussein as the new president, although he was not internationally recognized. [17]

Great post cold war politics, chaos, destruction, stealing support etc.

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 26, 2021 01:31AM

DeWatcher—

Excuse my french, but what the fuck does any of this have to do with the swamis comments? there is no context for them, nor did he give any. His views on women and jews and blacks and rape/dictators/biology/cosmology/history have popped up numerous times with the same exact sentiment expressed. No context given besides his narrow, incorrect views on everything from cosmology to biology and history. In a naive attempt to play the part of "authority" he said some pretty outlandish, bluntly dumb stuff by even the standards of his day and time he lived. This forum is not about interesting dictators nor does it justify the swamis ignorant ideas/opinions.

Rape is wrong. Women don't like it. By definition. Consentual violent sexual play is not rape. Rape is rape and wrong and no one likes it. Maybe you like it. Maybe the swami likes it. He certainly had no issue raping his 12 year old wife. He even descrubes her crying and laughs about it with his male sanyasi disciples. I posted that some weeks back. Sick shit.

Women are not more or less intelligent by virtue of brain size. Zero science to back it up and many examples of women leadrs and thinkers.

Hitler was bad. Not "not so bad" or cool cause he read the gita and used a hindu swastika as his symbol. Jews died by the millions on his orders and under his rule. Poor and rich.

Dictatorships have no place in a modern society nor does casteism or varnashrama or any other archaic systems still causing upheaval in India till this very day.

Radical Islam, like Hare Krishna is a cult. That they treat their women like pets in radical, fanatical religious systems in other cults is neither here nor there in terms of this forum. All it proves is that it's a cult with damaging views like other cults.

A black person is no more meant to be kept as a slave or not allowed freedoms and rights than any other race. Stating as much, which the swami did, on many occasions, makes him a racist nut job. Especially considering he is preaching a philosophy of "you are not the body". That makes him a hypocrite. Just like his daily snuff tobacco use. Any woman, black person or Jewish person that follows him is willfully ignorant or plain stupid.

I'd say that Radhika sums things up pretty damn well and gets to the heart of the issues (and with wit!). These are not some off-color cultural glitches in the swamis upbringing. He chose to be ignorant about these things. It's not as if the information did not exist and if he did not have any knowledge about these things, the humble thing to do (since devotees are meant to be humble), is to admit they have no opinion on the matter. Just like Butler never once studies a word that Carl Sagan or any scientist said, but was quick to dismiss them as frauds and quote fake science and half-baked opinions while arrogantly smirking.

I'm tired of you confusing this thread with your apologetics masquerading as being anti this cult. You have some nerve to come here and write confusing, unrelated and misinformed words like the above. I mean, what the hell are you even writign about? Jewish people with strong polish features and bullshit stories about poor jews versus rich jews. Most rich jews escaped out of europe. Poland is a largely anti-semetic country. Your views on history are probably just as skewed as the swamis. One thing is for sure, the krishna faith, like many cults, is a breeding ground for conspiracy theorists.

You want to do system analysis? It's very simple. The hare krishna system does not work. It's guru's are fanatical, delusional, naive nutjobs who literally think they are going to become 12-year-old cowherd girls. Nothing to analyze, it's in their scriptures and the words of their teachers. If it's not what they really mean, they should not say it. Very simple.

Why even speak of ethics when gods like krishna suggest to arjuna to kidnap his sister Subhadra against her will? What type of barbaric culture takes a woman against her will to marry her? Do you see anything like this happening in modern times and is considered normal (and please don't tell me it's a "transcendental pastime" we cannot understand with our minds—because again, what is the point of even mentioning such stories if people cannot grasp them in any rational way)? Even older versions of Mahabharata describe Krishna and Balaram in incestuous relations with their sister Subhadra—and many other such tales. Brahma, the head of the Braham Gaudiya Sampradaya had several incestuous relations). Is there some deep system analysis required here to see that this is all a load of useless bullshit? That there is nothing spiritual or remotely noble about any of this? Does stealing clothes from bathing 12 year old girls so you can check out their breasts strike you as a great and noble example to humanity? Does Bhaktivinoda locking himself in a samadhi kutir and imagining that he is a little gopi girl strike you as some profound spiritual awakening? Are we meant to "system analyze" every verse in an already very long Vedic body of work before we get some clarity on what the fuck is exactly going on? I thought that vyasa was trying to make it simple for everyone in kali yuga. That is not simple. We should not have to system analysis thousands of verses to find "truth". Truth should be self-evident, make sense, be rational and simple. Not confusing, arduous and trite. Ask even a child if it is OK to steal clothing from people who are bathing and they will say no. As even a child can see how boring and unnatural it is for a parent to be sitting and chanting 16 rounds over and over.

Rational thought and science asks that we test, verify and build a sound theory or establish a law/fact. When that proves to be wrong, we reject it and move on. This is how knowledge works. This is how reliable systems are built and this is the dynamics that form ration thought. If the vedas say that even one time chanting the "holy name" will make you see god and become purified in your mind, yet after years of sincere chanting and crying like a child in prayer to Krishna you are still not seeing anything and feeling any real shift in consciousness, then the answer is that it is not working. Simple. If being a pure devotee and full of knowledge and bliss means you lock yourself in a tinfoil beach house or say that black people should be slaves and jews deserved to get killed and Hitler was not so bad, well, I am sorry to fucking say, something about the process is not working. At all.

Meanwhile, nutter Gab-bard: [twitter.com]

Her great service to the public is standing up for a gun-happy white boy who killed people and then went bar-hopping with white supremacists and throwing around white power signs for the camera. Great vaishnava hindu aloha-bot.

Butler's eternal talking head. Butler sits all day in his tin foil beach house and watched news channel after news channel while he channels krishna and snorts crushed tulsi leaves.

Butler LOVES news and baseball (he knows more names of baseball stars than characters in the scriptures he peddles). There is not a moment in his house where there is not some newspaper scattered on the floor, tables or a TV blaring a news channel in one room or another. If anyone touches his newspaper he gets rabid and fines people, makes them wear paper bags on their heads. Gods great representative on earth. Jagad Guru.

Meanwhile, his wife is down the block getting dolled up with 2 tons of makeup to make her latest and greatest horror movie, er, music video while feasting on cyanide cassava chips.

Followers swoon at the thought of these transcendental pastimes and nibble on toe-nail chips of gurudev! jai jai jai!

The fruit does not fall far from the tree. Butler and the ISKCON guru's are direct proof in the pudding of what their guru gave them. These men were closest and most intimate in association to their master. When the swami dies, he put them in charge. Butler broke off and slapped the "prabhupada" title on his already long name and claimed he was the real deal. This is the glories of dictatorship, which Prabhupada "preferred". The fallout? Countless confused followers, hurt children and borderline schizophrenics.

Enjoy your delusion and system analysis.

I'll be here running.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Frozen Nick91 ()
Date: November 26, 2021 04:53AM

Thank you Run for making clear, that the Bhaktivedanta quotes from Radhikas video do not need any context to see that they are absolutely terrible. I was thinking the same when I read Watchers answer to it. I do not mean to gang up again DaWatcher here, but being in an ISCKON group as a child myself (for 2 years) i can only agree with Runs statement, that ISCKON is attracting many disturbed people and still today you can also see them all around the internet. Almost any video or post from other hindu groups or foundations that e.g. worhsip rather Shiva or are engaged into Monism - there is always a comment that talks down this particular school of thought or group in favour of ISKCON and Bhaktivedanta - and I think this says already a lot about the people who are in favour of ISCKON. And this is just a small example. During my time, everything else that is not ISCKON was slammed as being untruthful. Of course, anyone could claim now, that all religious groups also within hinduism are slamming against each other, but the quantity and the intensity of ISKCON followers is particularly extreme and obvious. So when I stumbled over the Butler group I was confronted with the same sort of arrogant, blind people who are not actually religious or really sincere whorshippers. They whorship themselves and their problems more than Krishna. This is what makes them so miserable inside of these groups. Before they entered the group they were "sooo misunderstood by others" and since they were kides they were "always lookig for the truth in life". And now they found this "wonderful group of people that finally shares their genius"..etc. So this attitudes, mixed with self-pity/inferiorness and then arrogance (to compensate) - this is what they worship, not God. And in these groups they find justification for their own misery and then they can be miserable together. And they never have to deal with their problems and traumas, by actually traumatising themelselves even more into "blindness". And if I think my misery is something "good" and it is "justified" i can believe any shit to keep this wheel rolling forever, because then i never have to look at myself actually. Sorry if I am hurting anyone now, but I think it is important to understand the psychology of those who are in these groups. It is remarkable, how antagonistic and at the same time overely frightened people are in ISCKON and SIF. Reasons for these behaviours are only and always personal. So who do I woship then? My own personal problems and reasons. I take them as an incentive to justify smth that feels rotten und fishy. They can never be divine. We do not need divinity if divinity is hatred and exclusion of others who do not want to join the choir of self-pitiness and self-destruction. It was bloody painful, and still is for me, to understand these meachnisms of "liying to yoursef" for your own "self-pity" that becomes the center of your "worship and your friendship with the group members"---! "Oh Krishna help me, I am so sinful, the other people are so bad to me, nobody understands that i just want to be with you." This is the monotheism of mental illness to me, i cannot see Kirshna here anywhere. And now I am catching myself anatgonising them! Yes, I can definitely see that. But at the moment, there is no other way for me to clear my message out here about what I witnessed and what I try to disown, actually. I can freely admit, that I am a mental one too. But a mental one who got bored of this whole charade.

AH yes before i forget: Another overcompensation mechanism from these groups is their bountifulness and their "love" and that they share everything and are communcative and nice. This whole show, many people do not look through, because also in our "atheist" world, everyone just plays a show to be nice. If I am a really nice person and I love others I do not have to make a show out of it and try to do door-to-door selling with my wonderful love Being stuck in this group, because the people are allegedly nice is a reason for many followers I have talked to.So again what are they worshipping actually? Is it Krishna, or the group? So many fake monotheisms.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2021 05:21AM by Frozen Nick91.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: November 26, 2021 08:09PM

I ask myself a question.
Is there truly hope for people who have developped such faith than they are willing to ingest a guru’s toenails with a glass of water that was used to wash their feet?
Is this truly spiritual life?
What a very strange system of worship? I think the gods have a very good sense of humor.
But guess what? We can either play these stupid games in exchange for some bliss or refuse paying such high price to get rewarded by crack like high.
Lucidity is quite painful and bitter. Being brainwashed, gaslit, abused and used is not that sweet either.
But hey who cares? Self is crap, self is fallen, self is envious, self deserves a horrible karma from 100000000 lives we do not remember, self is not even deserving of holy toenails.
Self is just a sinful servant by nature who deserves even worse. A servant who has forgotten that there is only one number one.
And that the Lord and his guru(s) can do whatever the heck they want out of love for you.
Suffer abuse today so that you can enjoy eternal love and freedom. After your body perishes from cancer, autoimmune diseases caused by years of fear, guilt, suppressing emotional and spiritual abuse, lack of sleep...
Just chant and be happy and do not question anything. It is all normal. Just shut up and increase your rounds. Your mind is your worse ennemy sucker!
Cause if you do, you are a filthy atheist. Because how dare you go deeper and wonder what the actual F is this non sense?
Brahmans are constantly afraid of going to hell. Shamans visit hell every single day.
The veil of Maya is amazingly thick and ruthless. It is what keeps us enslaved.
Whoever enjoys their slavery more weakness to you my friend.
Keep your heads in the sand as long as needed. It is quite safe down there. Especially if it is Maha sand.
Hold on to every non sensical words that come out of guru’s mouth. Because there is also much wisdome that come out of scripture and guru’s mouth.
However we are not authorized to discern. To judge that guru is not perfect.
This is where you are at. I have been there and I understand.
There is truly one way to drink this coolaid and it is to never question.
And this is why they insist:
This is the absolute truth, do not look anywhere else, curiosity killed the cat..
But no bullets will stand in my way of exposing the non sensical sides of religions.
And I do highly appreciate the good sides of religions and gods of religions.
Just do not brainwash me into thinking that religions and the gods of religions have only created a POLARIZED material realm. That duality is only man’s.
They are in my eyes as polarized as this material world they rule over.
All I ask for is honesty. No more fooling the masses.
Keep your spiritual macular degeneration to yourselves my friends with all due respect.
“Abandon all varieties of religions and surrender onto me. I shall give you all protection”.
Yes. All protection except from criminal gurus who fine and abuse your devotees.
And who boldly declare that they are the 33rd Acarya descending directly from you.
That filth bag deserves worship. But I must be punished for trying to find a path that empowers me instead of taking spiritual abuse and bowing down till there is a hole in my pants.
You want me to unconditionally love such a partial being?
Ok. I will. Maybe after all, masochism is the only ticket out of the material realm and back to the big boss upstairs.
I will work really hard to find my fallen position beautiful and joyful.
The fact that I have no appreciation for all the misery and torture is because I am a demon.
I hope that god will have mercy upon my soul. To make me appreciate that it is an only once in a lifetime boon that I can come across such a pure medium as butler and his divine grace.
I may be sarcastic but unfortunately this is exactly how hard core devotees think.
Once again, sorry if my words are not like honey to your ears. My life ain’t so sweet either thanks to the wrath of the gods.
I am not here to distribute candies but truth as hard to swallow as straight oil of oregano on the tongue.
There are 2 ways to look at this mess:
Some call it spiritual life. I call it spiritual death.
The fact that I was semi happy in such conditions only tells me one thing. I must have been injected by Maya’s heroine. And hypnotized by the maha mantra.
Otherwise how the heck can anybody find pleasure in living in fear, guilt, self doubt, policing, lack of sleep, giving more than you can afford... is this heaven or hell?
It is the greatest lie ever told. Period.
This post is not me joining the conversation. It is to whom it may concern.
Maybe there are amazing, loving, no non sense bhakti gurus out there. Maybe I could have known a very necrtarian side of this path.
Unfortunately fate threw me in Iskcon’s offshoot crap hole.
If krishna is as merciful as he says he is, I am sure he will get it.
I feel closer to him now in my honsest disgust and disappointment than my illusory, forced unconditional acceptance.
If having butler as my guru is/was my karma, to holly hell with that karma and karmic contract.
I flush it down the toilet along with the ripped pages of his books, pictures and booklets.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 26, 2021 10:06PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DeWatcher—
>
> Excuse my french, but what the fuck does any of
> this have to do with the swamis comments? there is
> no context for them, nor did he give any. His
> views on women and jews and blacks and
> rape/dictators/biology/cosmology/history have
> popped up numerous times with the same exact
> sentiment expressed.

Everything. If you are a system analyst you can see it. Where Swami is inaccurate, abbreviated, where it is wrong or the information is incomplete. What is this girl's vision, also what is her psychological profile, etc. These examples also refute the "vision of an effective peace" proposed by Tulsi Gabbard and cult. When you know what system reductionisms are and where they include e.g. system trajectories etc ...

But of course you can't see it easily. At least similar - it has to be realized. Like a trained soldier, he knows the theory, but implements it in mortal danger. Training helps, but it is death that allows you to establish the right proportions, the value of tactics, etc.


No context given besides his
> narrow, incorrect views on everything from
> cosmology to biology and history. In a naive
> attempt to play the part of "authority" he said
> some pretty outlandish, bluntly dumb stuff by even
> the standards of his day and time he lived. This
> forum is not about interesting dictators nor does
> it justify the swamis ignorant ideas/opinions.

This is in the subject. If you don't like this version, it is a hostile motive and not an objective view.

>
> Rape is wrong. Women don't like it. By definition.
> Consentual violent sexual play is not rape. Rape
> is rape and wrong and no one likes it. Maybe you
> like it. Maybe the swami likes it. He certainly
> had no issue raping his 12 year old wife. He even
> descrubes her crying and laughs about it with his
> male sanyasi disciples. I posted that some weeks
> back. Sick shit.

Nowhere have I written that rape is ok or that women like it. I have described the mechanisms. Bizarre Mind Mechanisms. On the other hand, the fact of assigning me further shows that you are under the control of hostile motorists and therefore, just like the cult, you will also be willing to transfer it to someone who writes objectively. You easily fall into a simple trap. In a serious game, you'd be just a puppet.

>
> Women are not more or less intelligent by virtue
> of brain size. Zero science to back it up and many
> examples of women leadrs and thinkers.

I've already commented on it. Different brain structure, greater dominance of emotions, less tendency to take risks, etc. Which does not mean lack of intelligence, but has different priorities or bonds.


> Hitler was bad. Not "not so bad" or cool cause he
> read the gita and used a hindu swastika as his
> symbol. Jews died by the millions on his orders
> and under his rule. Poor and rich.

Did i write he was good?


> Dictatorships have no place in a modern society
> nor does casteism or varnashrama or any other
> archaic systems still causing upheaval in India
> till this very day.

Maybe yes maybe no. It is Israel that has ruled out 65 countries to which it can sell the Pegasus system. Due to overly autocratic political systems. Where is the line between autocratism and dictatorship - fluid as always.

>
> Radical Islam, like Hare Krishna is a cult. That
> they treat their women like pets in radical,
> fanatical religious systems in other cults is
> neither here nor there in terms of this forum. All
> it proves is that it's a cult with damaging views
> like other cults.

If they treat women like pets there are fanatics. But keeping to the facts of, for example, the cult in Poland, most of the leaders were women and you could see the prejudiced treatment of men. There was a suspicion that they might be hidden lesbians. In some cases, we know the answer ...

>
> A black person is no more meant to be kept as a
> slave or not allowed freedoms and rights than any
> other race. Stating as much, which the swami did,
> on many occasions, makes him a racist nut job.
> Especially considering he is preaching a
> philosophy of "you are not the body". That makes
> him a hypocrite. Just like his daily snuff tobacco
> use. Any woman, black person or Jewish person that
> follows him is willfully ignorant or plain stupid.

Quote

The statement is controversial. But the white race has stood out in these 2 millennia with nothing good. Take, for example, the spectacular slaughter performed by Hernan Cortes in the hospitality of Montezuma II:

The advantage of the Indians was 10,000 to 1, but many refused to fight Cortés because of the brutal human sacrifice carried out by the Aztecs. Some Indians who hated the Aztecs joined the newcomers for a chance to retaliate [2] [3]. After a few months, he made an alliance with the local tribes of Tlaxcala, Huejotzincan and others.

Cortés took the capital of the Aztecs - Tenochtitlan without a fight (November 18, 1519) [4], crowds of Indians watched it, the most honorable inhabitants welcomed the conquerors, Montezuma II himself greeted Cortés. The Spaniards were accommodated in the Axayacatla Palace, opposite the temple in honor of Huitzilopochtli. On the other side of the palace there were animals, which were thrown at the bodies of people sacrificed, and moreover, streams of blood ran down the steps of the temple, all this terrified the Spaniards [5].

On Sunday, November 13, after mass, they decided to climb the temples, saw statues of Aztec gods who were sacrificed thousands of lives [6]. Two days later, Cortés decided that Moctezuma should be arrested as a hostage, as he feared they would be killed by the Aztecs. Nonetheless, human sacrifice continued until January 1520, when the Aztec king agreed to set up an altar, a cross, and an image of the Virgin Mary inside the temple. In response, the priests threatened war if they were not allowed to sacrifice humans and the symbols of Christianity were not removed. Despite this, no human sacrifice was made for the next three months [3].

Things were tense in the city, however, which was in part due to Cortés's absence. More Spanish troops landed, and their commander Narvaez was to take over the position of Hernan temporarily. Soon afterwards, Cortez's deputy, Pedro Albarado, slaughtered several hundred Indians when he learned of the alleged planning of an attack on the Spaniards [3]

>
> I'd say that Radhika sums things up pretty damn
> well and gets to the heart of the issues (and with
> wit!).

She was naive in the cult, she is still naive. It scores well on controversial points, but there is no explanation.


> These are not some off-color cultural
> glitches in the swamis upbringing. He chose to be
> ignorant about these things. It's not as if the
> information did not exist and if he did not have
> any knowledge about these things, the humble thing
> to do (since devotees are meant to be humble), is
> to admit they have no opinion on the matter. Just
> like Butler never once studies a word that Carl
> Sagan or any scientist said, but was quick to
> dismiss them as frauds and quote fake science and
> half-baked opinions while arrogantly smirking.
>
> I'm tired of you confusing this thread with your
> apologetics masquerading as being anti this cult.



> You have some nerve to come here and write
> confusing, unrelated and misinformed words like
> the above. I mean, what the hell are you even
> writign about? Jewish people with strong polish
> features and bullshit stories about poor jews
> versus rich jews. Most rich jews escaped out of
> europe. Poland is a largely anti-semetic country.

Oops. That's propaganda. Why did they read Gazeta Wyborcza, once the greatest daily. After all, the editors are mostly Jews.

You are offensive against Poles who are leaders on the list of "Righteous Among the Nations". During World War II, many of them paid their lives for hiding their Jewish friends. There is indeed a present reluctance, but it just so happens that the apparatus of the Stalinist security service was, unfortunately, statistically dominated by Jews ...

Since you insult Poles, your seeing is not worth shit. Sorry to say.This is the propaganda of the hypocritical circles of the "Holocaust Industry" who, instead of taking care of their poor Jewish brothers in Israel, are trying hard to spread their lies to extort their property from which a poor 5% goes to poor Jews. Only they cannot cope with the fact that the victims of hilterism in Poland were 3 million Polish citizens - Poles and 3 million Polish citizens - Jews ...

My grandmother was a soldier. At the age of seventeen, she fought in the Warsaw Uprising - the Second Uprising. Earlier there was the uprising of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Her Jewish friends were murdered. After the war, the family had so much respect for their absent neighbors that they would not dare to live in their abandoned apartments. She lived humbly, went to Church weekly, and confessed weekly. She cut food scraps into millimeter-sized pieces for animals.

Hence, I say to the swamis from America or other American authorities - you NOTHING to give. NOTHING.


> Why even speak of ethics when gods like krishna
> suggest to arjuna to kidnap his sister Subhadra
> against her will? What type of barbaric culture
> takes a woman against her will to marry her? Do
> you see anything like this happening in modern
> times and is considered normal (and please don't
> tell me it's a "transcendental pastime" we cannot
> understand with our minds—because again, what is
> the point of even mentioning such stories if
> people cannot grasp them in any rational way)?

Acutally visiting some Sanyasis saw 6 different forms of Krishna. Which Krishna is which? Krishna is God or is He not? I have not seen with my own eyes, I have no confirmation, I do not know.

So I won't answer these hostile questions because I don't know :)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2021 10:21PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 26, 2021 10:29PM

Frozen Nick91 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you Run for making clear, that the
> Bhaktivedanta quotes from Radhikas video do not
> need any context to see that they are absolutely
> terrible. I was thinking the same when I read
> Watchers answer to it. I do not mean to gang up
> again DaWatcher here, but being in an ISCKON group
> as a child myself (for 2 years) i can only agree
> with Runs statement, that ISCKON is attracting
> many disturbed people and still today you can also
> see them all around the internet.

Generally, SIF Poland was dominated by the hostile narrative of the leaders in relation to ISCKON. Meanwhile, in Poland it had its stages of development. Transformation. One of the leaders in the 1970s was forced by the Security Service to emigrate. He was arrested, books were taken from him, incense, etc.

When it comes to SIF Poland, women dominated. There was Tapasya das and Vishnu das, charismatic leaders and a circle of female adoration.

I am going to quote here again the story of how a woman from ISKCON came to one of the centers in Poland, mentally broken down because her guru forced her to have sex. In SiF Polska, she did not receive any help - eg filing a notification of a crime, etc. She came, went, chose ISKCON herself for her fault.

End of the story.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 26, 2021 11:25PM

By the way, I am about to finish so as not to upset your truthfulness - as we are with Poles and African Americans. "Tell me why Babylon".

Why did African Americans try to destroy a monument to the Polish and American hero - Tadeusz Kosciuszko.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

A close friend of Thomas Jefferson's, with whom he shared ideals of human rights, Kosciuszko wrote a will in 1798, dedicating his U.S. assets to the education and freedom of the U.S. slaves.

Quote

In the will, Kosciuszko left his American estate to be sold to buy the freedom of black slaves, including Jefferson's own, and to educate them for independent life and work.[105]

[www.youtube.com]

Don't bother, just rhetoric.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2021 11:26PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 27, 2021 02:10AM

DeWatcher,

The only propaganda happening here is you repeatedly coming here and deflecting, distracting and vouching support for this destructive cult and ones like it (i.e. other gaudiya vaishnava groups that share the same basic ideology). Time after time you claim more context is needed to verify that such and such comment by the swami or butler is in some way needing more "context". The context is that a slew of male senior sanyasi disciples (future leaders of ISKCON) were in conversation with the swami and he said some stuff that can only be taken back by saying he was wrong (something he would never do because it would shatter his guru status) or, as we would all like to know, give some context for his views. But instead, more often than not, the swami would keep ranting and even get agitated and upset that he was being questioned. Same with butler. In fact, to question him was offensive. THAT IS THE IDEOLOGY they promote and what keeps people from thinking rationally in such a cult.

You claim Radhika was naive then and now. I would choose bold, heroic and thoughtful. Here is a girl who was born and raised in this utter mental clown act nonsense and she is finding the courage to say, "enough is enough" and show, unabashed, the lunacy of this crap. Why don't you start your own Youtube Channel and explain to people the "context" you claim is needed to understand that a woman likes to be raped expertly. Seems like the swami who translated 100s of books needs a fucking translator. Seems like the words of Prabhupada are not "perfect" and need further purports.

The details of your and mine political views or you taking offense at Polands very evident history of anti-semitic remarks, sentiment and racist views is laughable. If you are a Vaishnava, what do you care. By your mode of thinking all are spirit souls and there is no real difference in people except some surface issues. As you can see, in a very practical way, this is not the case. You obviously have a strong national identity to react so harshly in defense to my off-color comment. Which, I still stand by, by the way. It always humored me how anti-Semitic poles could be, even to this day (https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/15/poland-arrests-three-over-disgraceful-anti-semitic-demonstration). Does that mean every last pole is anti-Semitic? Obviously not. I am talking about a general national sentiment per-capita and history—BUT ABOVE ALL, TO POINT TO THE SILLY REPLY YOU LEFT THAT WENT ON AND ON ABOUT POLITICS AND SADO-MASICISM AND THINGS UNRELATED TO THE SWAMIS COMMENTS.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not distract this thread more by posting endless rebuttals to polish anti-Semitism. This has obviously changed more in recent times. We can discuss the nuances of that sentiment till we turn blue (preferably in private messages), but my overarching point and issue with you is that you even brought up such totally outlandish replies that only serve to detract, distract and avoid the topic at hand. I know that you are afraid to commit some offense by calling the swami's words on face value. That is you burden and cognitive dissonance. I am done subscribing to irrational, ideological lunacy to protect that which seeks no protection. Bhaktivedanta does not need you to back him up by painting an elaborate picture of socio-political jargon to defend his ignorant comments about very sensitive issues with overarching implications that have little to no place in modern cultures. It's not like in 1968 Bhaktivedanta was unable to get the most recent information about any number of sound scientific ideas. He CHOSE to be ignorant and spread that ignorance to his followers. Teaching people to sing and dance is kirtan is not education of the public. Nor do his books carry any rational advice for common problems plaguing society. To simply say "abortion is wrong", "Homosexuality is wrong", "sex for pleasure is wrong", etc etc is not rational solutions to anything. It's called IDEOLOGY and DOGMA. And to not allow people to question it or make them feel that they will "fall down" and "suffer" if they don't follow something to the T is dehumanizing and derogatory and creates mental illness issues.

Tadeusz Kosciuszko was a white man. BLM is a movement that wants to shed light on the systemic racism inherently present in the American mindset and social-polital landscape. Who knows why they defaced the statue. Maybe because many of them were ignorant about who he was or maybe because they are sick and tired of seeing monuments at major parks of famous white dudes. My point to you is who the hell cares? This is not a forum to discuss such things, not does it effectively provide an itoa of context for the swamis words. Do you honestly think Chris Butler is some educated man who has spoken all of his hateful ideas about Islam and Homosexuality based on sound research?

You made a comment that really shows how you are blinded by the complete lack of rational thought concerning prabhpadas words. In fact you almost parrot his naive sentiment. You said:

"I've already commented on it. Different brain structure, greater dominance of emotions, less tendency to take risks, etc. Which does not mean lack of intelligence, but has different priorities or bonds."

Wow, you really have women figured out. I assume you're still a brahmachari? Again, what does this have to do with the swamis direct sentiment that women ARE LESS INTELLIGENT and SHOULD ONLY SERVER THEIR HUSBANDS and LIKE RAPE????

You are also incorrect in stating total nonsense that a women is dominated by "emotion" and "takes less risk". Have you given birth to a child? Woman have everything to lose and risk when having a child (every man ever born came form a woman. That is every soldier and risk-taking man). Child-rearing is inherently risky. Historically a woman was taking a great risk in starting a family. Women have been taking massive risks since time in memorial. Fighting in a war does not show a man to have the ability to take a risk, it shoes that he is a mindless ape unable to use peaceful discourse to solve problems rationally. Something that women have been doing pretty expertly for millions of years.

By the way, I am 100% polish and my wife is 100 times more of a risk taker than I will ever be.

I'm just trying to understand here, are you saying this type of stuff to be supportive of the swami or to distract the conversation? What is the use of even stating such a thing? The words the swami spoke affect ISKCON to this day. In all likelihood a revival of his rhetoric will be coming soon unless people speak up NOW. ISKCON is already writing "codes of conduct" for their followers. Much of this stuff is based on ideological stances by the swami. It's only natural young fanatical devotees will want to re-create the good-ol-days at some point.

I had a similar issue with Whirlwind. I think it's very disingenuous to come on this particular thread and pretend that there is some aspects of this ideology that are cool and others not and the we need to consider the context of the swamis words etc. What is the context for Krishna's many shady pastimes or countless scriptural verse, that they take literally, that spell discord and create trauma? What "context" is there to Krishna stealing clothes from 12 year old girls bathing in a lake? What is the grand lesson here that we will learn? That god is a jerk? That god likes to agitate us for no reason? That god is a pervert? That god is pleased by looking at makes prepubescent girls? Or is some swami brainwashing you to see it as "sweet eternal pastimes of the all-attractive!"?

Take a slice of that pie and apply the same mechanism to chanting 16 rounds or any other BS they peddle. and tell me honestly if there is any contextual reason that can be rationally explained as to why anyone should do any of this and a REAL example of it actually having some profound, transformative, awakening, and enlightening effect on people.

As Frozen nick posted as well: There is a forced "happiness" that they try to use to recruit people. An outwardly performance of "love". But this is to the real deal once you are well in the cult. This fades and is replaced by actually a rather harsher reality. AND, lets not forget an even harsher one not too long ago where kids were being forced to wake at 4 am, take cold bucket showers, and chant like automatons and told to bow and worship some guy they never really met or had any meaningful, real relationship with. Many of these kids were abused physically, sexually, emotionally and many parents and mothers and wives also suffered. Many families are broken up, and in general a life outside the dynamics of the cult are viewed with near terror and lots of fear and unwarranted paranoia.

Those that do leave, feel they are giving up the "highest treasure of Devine love!" and live in self deprecation, self vilification and irrational fear of the 'material world". They find it hard to form relationships, may even turn to drugs to avoid facing the awkwardness they feel, self hatred and anger.

It's incredibly hard to shed something that you were born into or began at a very young age. That is why folks like Gaura Rader, Rama and Radhika and MANY MANY others are an inspiration to me personally. They did it. Some less successfully than others, but they looked this bullshit in the eye and said: THIS IS LIE. I HAVE BEEN LIED TO. I DO NOT NEED THIS GARBAGE TO FEEL WHOLE. I DO NOT NEED THIS MIND SCRAMBLE TO LOVE MYSELF, LOVE LIFE, LOVE OTHERS and FIND PEACE.

Running helped a lot.

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