Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 26, 2021 11:25PM

By the way, I am about to finish so as not to upset your truthfulness - as we are with Poles and African Americans. "Tell me why Babylon".

Why did African Americans try to destroy a monument to the Polish and American hero - Tadeusz Kosciuszko.



A close friend of Thomas Jefferson's, with whom he shared ideals of human rights, Kosciuszko wrote a will in 1798, dedicating his U.S. assets to the education and freedom of the U.S. slaves.


In the will, Kosciuszko left his American estate to be sold to buy the freedom of black slaves, including Jefferson's own, and to educate them for independent life and work.[105]


Don't bother, just rhetoric.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2021 11:26PM by DaWatcher.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 27, 2021 02:10AM


The only propaganda happening here is you repeatedly coming here and deflecting, distracting and vouching support for this destructive cult and ones like it (i.e. other gaudiya vaishnava groups that share the same basic ideology). Time after time you claim more context is needed to verify that such and such comment by the swami or butler is in some way needing more "context". The context is that a slew of male senior sanyasi disciples (future leaders of ISKCON) were in conversation with the swami and he said some stuff that can only be taken back by saying he was wrong (something he would never do because it would shatter his guru status) or, as we would all like to know, give some context for his views. But instead, more often than not, the swami would keep ranting and even get agitated and upset that he was being questioned. Same with butler. In fact, to question him was offensive. THAT IS THE IDEOLOGY they promote and what keeps people from thinking rationally in such a cult.

You claim Radhika was naive then and now. I would choose bold, heroic and thoughtful. Here is a girl who was born and raised in this utter mental clown act nonsense and she is finding the courage to say, "enough is enough" and show, unabashed, the lunacy of this crap. Why don't you start your own Youtube Channel and explain to people the "context" you claim is needed to understand that a woman likes to be raped expertly. Seems like the swami who translated 100s of books needs a fucking translator. Seems like the words of Prabhupada are not "perfect" and need further purports.

The details of your and mine political views or you taking offense at Polands very evident history of anti-semitic remarks, sentiment and racist views is laughable. If you are a Vaishnava, what do you care. By your mode of thinking all are spirit souls and there is no real difference in people except some surface issues. As you can see, in a very practical way, this is not the case. You obviously have a strong national identity to react so harshly in defense to my off-color comment. Which, I still stand by, by the way. It always humored me how anti-Semitic poles could be, even to this day ( Does that mean every last pole is anti-Semitic? Obviously not. I am talking about a general national sentiment per-capita and history—BUT ABOVE ALL, TO POINT TO THE SILLY REPLY YOU LEFT THAT WENT ON AND ON ABOUT POLITICS AND SADO-MASICISM AND THINGS UNRELATED TO THE SWAMIS COMMENTS.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not distract this thread more by posting endless rebuttals to polish anti-Semitism. This has obviously changed more in recent times. We can discuss the nuances of that sentiment till we turn blue (preferably in private messages), but my overarching point and issue with you is that you even brought up such totally outlandish replies that only serve to detract, distract and avoid the topic at hand. I know that you are afraid to commit some offense by calling the swami's words on face value. That is you burden and cognitive dissonance. I am done subscribing to irrational, ideological lunacy to protect that which seeks no protection. Bhaktivedanta does not need you to back him up by painting an elaborate picture of socio-political jargon to defend his ignorant comments about very sensitive issues with overarching implications that have little to no place in modern cultures. It's not like in 1968 Bhaktivedanta was unable to get the most recent information about any number of sound scientific ideas. He CHOSE to be ignorant and spread that ignorance to his followers. Teaching people to sing and dance is kirtan is not education of the public. Nor do his books carry any rational advice for common problems plaguing society. To simply say "abortion is wrong", "Homosexuality is wrong", "sex for pleasure is wrong", etc etc is not rational solutions to anything. It's called IDEOLOGY and DOGMA. And to not allow people to question it or make them feel that they will "fall down" and "suffer" if they don't follow something to the T is dehumanizing and derogatory and creates mental illness issues.

Tadeusz Kosciuszko was a white man. BLM is a movement that wants to shed light on the systemic racism inherently present in the American mindset and social-polital landscape. Who knows why they defaced the statue. Maybe because many of them were ignorant about who he was or maybe because they are sick and tired of seeing monuments at major parks of famous white dudes. My point to you is who the hell cares? This is not a forum to discuss such things, not does it effectively provide an itoa of context for the swamis words. Do you honestly think Chris Butler is some educated man who has spoken all of his hateful ideas about Islam and Homosexuality based on sound research?

You made a comment that really shows how you are blinded by the complete lack of rational thought concerning prabhpadas words. In fact you almost parrot his naive sentiment. You said:

"I've already commented on it. Different brain structure, greater dominance of emotions, less tendency to take risks, etc. Which does not mean lack of intelligence, but has different priorities or bonds."

Wow, you really have women figured out. I assume you're still a brahmachari? Again, what does this have to do with the swamis direct sentiment that women ARE LESS INTELLIGENT and SHOULD ONLY SERVER THEIR HUSBANDS and LIKE RAPE????

You are also incorrect in stating total nonsense that a women is dominated by "emotion" and "takes less risk". Have you given birth to a child? Woman have everything to lose and risk when having a child (every man ever born came form a woman. That is every soldier and risk-taking man). Child-rearing is inherently risky. Historically a woman was taking a great risk in starting a family. Women have been taking massive risks since time in memorial. Fighting in a war does not show a man to have the ability to take a risk, it shoes that he is a mindless ape unable to use peaceful discourse to solve problems rationally. Something that women have been doing pretty expertly for millions of years.

By the way, I am 100% polish and my wife is 100 times more of a risk taker than I will ever be.

I'm just trying to understand here, are you saying this type of stuff to be supportive of the swami or to distract the conversation? What is the use of even stating such a thing? The words the swami spoke affect ISKCON to this day. In all likelihood a revival of his rhetoric will be coming soon unless people speak up NOW. ISKCON is already writing "codes of conduct" for their followers. Much of this stuff is based on ideological stances by the swami. It's only natural young fanatical devotees will want to re-create the good-ol-days at some point.

I had a similar issue with Whirlwind. I think it's very disingenuous to come on this particular thread and pretend that there is some aspects of this ideology that are cool and others not and the we need to consider the context of the swamis words etc. What is the context for Krishna's many shady pastimes or countless scriptural verse, that they take literally, that spell discord and create trauma? What "context" is there to Krishna stealing clothes from 12 year old girls bathing in a lake? What is the grand lesson here that we will learn? That god is a jerk? That god likes to agitate us for no reason? That god is a pervert? That god is pleased by looking at makes prepubescent girls? Or is some swami brainwashing you to see it as "sweet eternal pastimes of the all-attractive!"?

Take a slice of that pie and apply the same mechanism to chanting 16 rounds or any other BS they peddle. and tell me honestly if there is any contextual reason that can be rationally explained as to why anyone should do any of this and a REAL example of it actually having some profound, transformative, awakening, and enlightening effect on people.

As Frozen nick posted as well: There is a forced "happiness" that they try to use to recruit people. An outwardly performance of "love". But this is to the real deal once you are well in the cult. This fades and is replaced by actually a rather harsher reality. AND, lets not forget an even harsher one not too long ago where kids were being forced to wake at 4 am, take cold bucket showers, and chant like automatons and told to bow and worship some guy they never really met or had any meaningful, real relationship with. Many of these kids were abused physically, sexually, emotionally and many parents and mothers and wives also suffered. Many families are broken up, and in general a life outside the dynamics of the cult are viewed with near terror and lots of fear and unwarranted paranoia.

Those that do leave, feel they are giving up the "highest treasure of Devine love!" and live in self deprecation, self vilification and irrational fear of the 'material world". They find it hard to form relationships, may even turn to drugs to avoid facing the awkwardness they feel, self hatred and anger.

It's incredibly hard to shed something that you were born into or began at a very young age. That is why folks like Gaura Rader, Rama and Radhika and MANY MANY others are an inspiration to me personally. They did it. Some less successfully than others, but they looked this bullshit in the eye and said: THIS IS LIE. I HAVE BEEN LIED TO. I DO NOT NEED THIS GARBAGE TO FEEL WHOLE. I DO NOT NEED THIS MIND SCRAMBLE TO LOVE MYSELF, LOVE LIFE, LOVE OTHERS and FIND PEACE.

Running helped a lot.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 27, 2021 02:11AM

Today I am taking my daughter to a Hare Krishna temple. I want to show her what I grew up believing. She is going to shit her pants and either laugh at me or feel sorry for me or wonder why the hell I did that. I am going to have to tell her that this is what my mother wanted for me and I had little to no choice in the matter. And that this led to years of feeling isolated, not seeing my father or any old friends and family, jumping from one ashram, guru and group to another and finally taking very small but intentional steps to free my thinking, and associations from this cult. She is going to ask me why there is people dressing up big barbie dolls and bowing to a plastic statue of an old man. I will tell her that that old man wrote many storybooks and one such story is of god stealing clothes from girls her age so that he can check them out naked. and that this was not enough and this same god married 16108 wives and this still was not enough so he cheated on them with, among many others, his Aunt, Radharani. And then I will hold my daughter's sweet little face in my hand and tell her: RUN!!!!

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 27, 2021 02:12AM

“I think ideology is toxic, all ideology. It’s not that there are good ones and bad ones.
All ideology is toxic, because ideology is a kind of insult to the gift of human free thinking.”

– Terence McKenna

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: DaWatcher ()
Date: November 27, 2021 02:53AM

> DeWatcher,
> The only propaganda happening here is you
> repeatedly coming here and deflecting, distracting
> and vouching support for this destructive cult and
> ones like it (i.e. other gaudiya vaishnava groups
> that share the same basic ideology).

That words make you a false liar. Where the cult or members have broken the law - they must go to jail. You're a liar. You are swimming false. What I'm not doing is totally condemning philosophy. I don't throw people into one bag.

Where worship has destroyed life - there should be punishment. Where he continues to recruit for funding and engaging in unpaid and no-nonsense work - this must be stopped.

But no - I am not going to question philosophy as a whole. There are inconsistencies, leaders have failed. But why should we challenge religion because of the behavior of members or leaders? The same as, for example, Christianity after, for example, the Inquisition burned at the stake 20 thousand. Jews and 110,000 she sent to the galleys. Of course, it has its drawbacks. Categorizing as candala etc. May be offensive etc.

If someone voluntarily accepts it, his choice. if leaders use manipulative techniques and destroy members, it is a crime.

You are an angry lier and a slanderer. Which I don't really care.
You are not much different from cultists. Dichotomous perception. Blind Believer - Strongly Rejecting. Dichotomies.

Sorry to say. No more to say. Or a little.

> It's incredibly hard to shed something that you
> were born into or began at a very young age. That
> is why folks like Gaura Rader, Rama and Radhika
> and MANY MANY others are an inspiration to me
> personally. They did it. Some less successfully
> than others, but they looked this bullshit in the
> eye and said: THIS IS LIE. I HAVE BEEN LIED TO. I
> Running helped a lot.

At age 10 i realized word is a place of misery and death gives life no more meaning than compassion. Buddhist perception from a child brought up in Catholicism. I found myself in cult AFTER I DECIDED to give up worldly ambitions. I have tried, I have had a traumatic experience, and I go on.

No more to say. Farewell on the Eternal Path.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: November 27, 2021 06:50AM

For - Run Forest Run- Truth Wins & Frozen Nick
BRAVO, Gentlemen !!!

And this:

"and this is my fear and what I suspect, they are literally being dictated to by their guru who believes that the same rules of life apply now as they did in 1200 BC. Not everything can be fixed with an aloha, namaste or a haribol. Sometimes stupid, is as stupid does." RFR

And ALL these cult bots be stupid for long long time...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 28, 2021 02:19AM

Oh man, Vox, this is a full time job sometimes fighting the random, out-of-left-field comments on here...

There are countless pages of many Puranas dedicated to discussing the low nature of women and praising them in another (most if not all caste-related injunctions). These types of verses lead to cognitive dissonance. A body of scriptures that says one thing here and another there is simply revealing that it is composed by many divergent authors. Not one. Unless that person is schizophrenic or has multiple personality disorder.

The various sampradayas focus on assorted scriptures they deem to support their views. This is called confirmation bias. And if the support does not exist, then they create one by "discovering" some hidden pages in some obscure temple.

Take the Tulasi plant. The plant, a type of mint, is considered "sacred". In India, the plant is historically used to keep bugs out of grain stores. Is it any wonder it became such a "sacred" plant to them? It was valuable and helped them.

Same for the cow. The cow was a valuable commodity in agrarian societies. As time went on such animals in Inida took on mythical proportions in lore. Just as in ancient cave paintings we find many images of animals that were important to the survival of those people.

I am not against any group or sampradaya. I am against willful ignorance. That once one has been show that some philosophy or ideology or ritual is flawed or based on a silly and weak rhetoric, then you abandon it or in the least admit its place in history and acknowledge it holds no innate value on its own in contemporary society. When a child wearing neck beads has to explain to "karmi" friends that a random mint plant is sacred to them because god randomly likes that plant or animal more than others, it sounds ass-backward. It makes a person look like a fool no matter what other things they may say that sound interesting or intelligent.

When a devotee wears a sikha and can barely provide a single rational verse in support of such an illogical hairstyle, and simply say that their guru wants them to do it, it sounds like you're a mindless automaton just following orders but yet you want others to listen to you about what life is really about?

Take this verse from the Garuda Purana, a Vaishnava text. Garuda stambas are in most ISKCON temples and butler devotees love a good Garuda story and tattoo. So the bird must be pretty important to them:

Hari Said:

If a woman has brown hairs curling upwards over her body, she is destined to become a slave even if she is born a princess.

(an auspicious women's) Vagina shall be broad like a leaf of a Atvattha tree, the navel deep and curling to the right, three curls of hair curling to the right, breast free from hair...

Anyway, you get the idea. And this is just a small sampling of such texts. Butler has barely read the entire Bhagavad Gita let alone the "Veda", so how is he an authority on the veda? Bhaktivedanta translated a handful of Puranas and Chaitanya Charitamrita. Yet they claim allegiance in the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya. What that essentially means is that they have picked and chosen what made sense to them and pieced together a philosophy and spiritual system that supports their specific claims and ideology. Nothing wrong with that. Until it affects people negatively. And when it does, and people start to point it out and all you can do is justify it by making roundabout excuses reaching and making mental leaps that are the equivalent of a Cirque de sole performance to justify it all, it's pretty scary to witness that level of fanaticism and fundamentalism.

I applaud the devotees well versed in their scriptures, but if you listen to what they are quoting with a critical mind and keep asking questions: Who wrote this text? Why does this text say this in one place and another in another place? Why do the guru's in your own line diverge in how they interpret seemingly straightforward ideas about jiva tattva and guru tattva? Why are so many scriptural stories so over-the-top and fantastical to the point of being cheesy or breaking fundamental laws of physics for seemingly no reason other than to put on a show? You quickly see that all they can do is hide behind the wall of silence or plead the "prabhpada said" rebuttal.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: November 28, 2021 04:27PM

The greatest achievement in world cinematography: Hellraiser.


Much better than Dawn Till Dusk from Tarantino and Clooney. You know whose spiritual and sanctified daughters had a relationship with the Tarantino ...

So be it...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: November 28, 2021 10:55PM

I know that it is really tough to swallow red pills because going down the rabbit hole, connecting dots, critical thinking are very “life” shattering.
The pull of the krishna consciousness is the strongest I have ever experienced and I get it why some cannot let go.
As I have been living in a very hellish (by design) life since I left, there are days I still think of the good times, inner satisfaction, happiness I felt from my sevice.
I miss the security of thinking that at the moment of death I will be greeted by the beautiful spiritual plane and see my gurudeva, all the devotees back there in Krishna loka.
As well as saving 100 generations before me by being faithful to Krishna.
I truly get why some put up with the fear, misery, control, fatigue... to stay.
Especially those such as myself who are single and do not have much comfort in the material realm.
Putting up with abuse in order to get security and some glimpses of peace and happiness is a betrayal of self and soul.
It seems as though we are forced to always sell our selfhood in this realm in order to suffer less. We are blackmailed both from above and below and kept quite small.
We have put up with nastiness and injustices because it is just the way it is.
God does whatever the heck he wants in all scriptures. And don’t you dare question the big guy cause his plan is perfect.
Suffer today so that you gain eternal life after.
I am tired of this BS. Tired of the lies and putting up with material as well as spiritual narcissism.
No amount of scriptual debate and being called an atheist can cancel all that I have experienced on a level that has shattered all my illusions.
I still in my heart try to convince myself that there is a greater plan that I cannot see. That there must be some justice somewhere.
I know from experience that everything in here is designed to switch off the critical thinking of humans.
We are constantly fragmented via trauma and drama.
The fact that we get traumatized in spiritual communities also, tells me that something is truly wrong.
Why is this realm so predatory and why is it so hard for the soul to discover who they truly are without buying a prefabricated program?
That tells me that the controllers of this reality we call gods, are not as benevolent as we think they are.
I do not waste my time reading 100000000 pages of scripture.
I know that there is a huge amount of truth in all of them. That they offer good guidleines and solid moral codes.
But blind faith does not satisfy me anymore.
I appreciate the honest relation I have with the only gods I have known in this lifetime. If there is a perfect loving source beyond the gods of religions, I do not know that force.
I do not need to be afraid of them and tell them exactly what I think of them. Even if it comes at a high price.
Being real, honest, solid from within does not make one popular.
It is a very lonely place where the gods do not like to reside because they know that I have seen their true faces and that I can no longer be fooled.
I have no issues with butler being half caring and half abusive. Pretty much like the masters he serves.
Let us openly admit that these gurus are only patially qualified to cure the mental hopsital patients. That they are not worthy of worship.
That they themselevs suffer from some issues and they are not divine incarnations.
Bhakti yoga is a very powerful bandaid. And an amazing spiritual drug.
However looking at iskcon and soi, it shows that it is a veey flawed system.
I would gladly try to forgive butler and his minions if they publicly admit what a bunch of posers, liars, misled sheep they are.
But this will never happen. So we do the job for them.
If this reality is an experiment, then next time around, they must do a better job with their religious systems.
Unless making souls suffer, be confused, used and abused is the purpose.
In that case please do not change anything.
Unconditional love, forgiveness are not easily achieved.
There is nothing romantic nor noble about forgiving ennemies. There is nothing heroic about accepting abuse because we are as low as the straw and others must urinate on us.
The healing only begins when we no longer feel deserving of such abuse. That we no longer allow others to abuse and lord over us.
We should neither carry the cross for others nor put the cross other people’s backs.
It is time to let go of that BS programming and spiritual bliss addiction.
Chris butler offers a fentanyl laced version of spiritual life.
He is a gangster and criminal who hides under the protection of Maya that has blinded devotees. He may do some good but he is no saint. He may have been given some little siddhis but he is not a demigod.
Maya does not blind you with pepper spray. She does it sweetly by making a narcissist pass for a modern Jesus.
Even if our efforts lead nowhere an evil seems to reign supreme , at least we are fighting a just cause.
Reality can be a nightmare but it is best to face a nightmare than to be a puppet in the westworld dream of a crazy guru.
No need to read and quote 10000000000 pages of scripture.
As long as one is forced to fear god (whoever that entity is) it is messed up.
You can call that fear spiritual fear to beautify it. Nothing justifies this distortion.
Better die fearlessly than to live like a coward.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: November 29, 2021 03:14AM

Run Forest Run, I have not read the comments in here for a while.
I just saw what you wrote about taking your daughter to the ashram.
I had no idea you were dragged into this by your mother. I felt as though you entered the butler group as an adult as I did.
I truly find it mind blowing how Krishna can get away with everything he does and make us beleive that whatever he does is pure, but for us it is perverted.
I truly feel very sad for how the truth is hidden from us.
Those who let go of religion, tur to extraterrestrial wisdome.
Some people charge 600 dollars for a one hour channeled session.
I try to respect the beliefs of others and their quest to find the truth and seek solace and shelter.
I myself found great purpose in my years of chanting. It was part of my journey.
However making the seekers suffer, use and abuse them is not something that I lightly accept.
There is nothing wrong in extracting the best of each philosphy (religion) and build our own path.
The essence of bhakti yoga is good. Having a kind heart, treating others nicely, living a rather clean life...
I did not regress on that path. I did davance but the butler cult is making it into a sweatshop and control system.
I got damaged in some other ways.
I found a wailana cookbook in my boxes and it made me smile.
How others have slaved for free to make that book. Then she puts her picture on the cover and she pretends to cook in some pictures.
I sometimes feel sorry for all of them. But I know that they feel sorry for me.
It must be quite a trip to have thousands of people think you are the direct link between humans and god.
That by having them serve you, you are allowing them to get purified and that your abusive words is benefitting them.
He is imho also in a great illusion and I am almost convinced that he gets spiritual strength from his polluted service.
As we have been told in the vedas, many demons have attained powers through austerity.
I feel as though deities are non partial and they just reward anybody who relates to them.
This is why wailana and butler will always think that their abuse is mercy.
No matter how much they use others for free, they still get the bliss showers and krishna hugs plus devotee adoration.
How sweet to be able to get away with such crap. Both spiritually and materially.

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