Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: November 27, 2021 02:10AM
The only propaganda happening here is you repeatedly coming here and deflecting, distracting and vouching support for this destructive cult and ones like it (i.e. other gaudiya vaishnava groups that share the same basic ideology). Time after time you claim more context is needed to verify that such and such comment by the swami or butler is in some way needing more "context". The context is that a slew of male senior sanyasi disciples (future leaders of ISKCON) were in conversation with the swami and he said some stuff that can only be taken back by saying he was wrong (something he would never do because it would shatter his guru status) or, as we would all like to know, give some context for his views. But instead, more often than not, the swami would keep ranting and even get agitated and upset that he was being questioned. Same with butler. In fact, to question him was offensive. THAT IS THE IDEOLOGY they promote and what keeps people from thinking rationally in such a cult.
You claim Radhika was naive then and now. I would choose bold, heroic and thoughtful. Here is a girl who was born and raised in this utter mental clown act nonsense and she is finding the courage to say, "enough is enough" and show, unabashed, the lunacy of this crap. Why don't you start your own Youtube Channel and explain to people the "context" you claim is needed to understand that a woman likes to be raped expertly. Seems like the swami who translated 100s of books needs a fucking translator. Seems like the words of Prabhupada are not "perfect" and need further purports.
The details of your and mine political views or you taking offense at Polands very evident history of anti-semitic remarks, sentiment and racist views is laughable. If you are a Vaishnava, what do you care. By your mode of thinking all are spirit souls and there is no real difference in people except some surface issues. As you can see, in a very practical way, this is not the case. You obviously have a strong national identity to react so harshly in defense to my off-color comment. Which, I still stand by, by the way. It always humored me how anti-Semitic poles could be, even to this day (https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/15/poland-arrests-three-over-disgraceful-anti-semitic-demonstration). Does that mean every last pole is anti-Semitic? Obviously not. I am talking about a general national sentiment per-capita and history—BUT ABOVE ALL, TO POINT TO THE SILLY REPLY YOU LEFT THAT WENT ON AND ON ABOUT POLITICS AND SADO-MASICISM AND THINGS UNRELATED TO THE SWAMIS COMMENTS.
So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not distract this thread more by posting endless rebuttals to polish anti-Semitism. This has obviously changed more in recent times. We can discuss the nuances of that sentiment till we turn blue (preferably in private messages), but my overarching point and issue with you is that you even brought up such totally outlandish replies that only serve to detract, distract and avoid the topic at hand. I know that you are afraid to commit some offense by calling the swami's words on face value. That is you burden and cognitive dissonance. I am done subscribing to irrational, ideological lunacy to protect that which seeks no protection. Bhaktivedanta does not need you to back him up by painting an elaborate picture of socio-political jargon to defend his ignorant comments about very sensitive issues with overarching implications that have little to no place in modern cultures. It's not like in 1968 Bhaktivedanta was unable to get the most recent information about any number of sound scientific ideas. He CHOSE to be ignorant and spread that ignorance to his followers. Teaching people to sing and dance is kirtan is not education of the public. Nor do his books carry any rational advice for common problems plaguing society. To simply say "abortion is wrong", "Homosexuality is wrong", "sex for pleasure is wrong", etc etc is not rational solutions to anything. It's called IDEOLOGY and DOGMA. And to not allow people to question it or make them feel that they will "fall down" and "suffer" if they don't follow something to the T is dehumanizing and derogatory and creates mental illness issues.
Tadeusz Kosciuszko was a white man. BLM is a movement that wants to shed light on the systemic racism inherently present in the American mindset and social-polital landscape. Who knows why they defaced the statue. Maybe because many of them were ignorant about who he was or maybe because they are sick and tired of seeing monuments at major parks of famous white dudes. My point to you is who the hell cares? This is not a forum to discuss such things, not does it effectively provide an itoa of context for the swamis words. Do you honestly think Chris Butler is some educated man who has spoken all of his hateful ideas about Islam and Homosexuality based on sound research?
You made a comment that really shows how you are blinded by the complete lack of rational thought concerning prabhpadas words. In fact you almost parrot his naive sentiment. You said:
"I've already commented on it. Different brain structure, greater dominance of emotions, less tendency to take risks, etc. Which does not mean lack of intelligence, but has different priorities or bonds."
Wow, you really have women figured out. I assume you're still a brahmachari? Again, what does this have to do with the swamis direct sentiment that women ARE LESS INTELLIGENT and SHOULD ONLY SERVER THEIR HUSBANDS and LIKE RAPE????
You are also incorrect in stating total nonsense that a women is dominated by "emotion" and "takes less risk". Have you given birth to a child? Woman have everything to lose and risk when having a child (every man ever born came form a woman. That is every soldier and risk-taking man). Child-rearing is inherently risky. Historically a woman was taking a great risk in starting a family. Women have been taking massive risks since time in memorial. Fighting in a war does not show a man to have the ability to take a risk, it shoes that he is a mindless ape unable to use peaceful discourse to solve problems rationally. Something that women have been doing pretty expertly for millions of years.
By the way, I am 100% polish and my wife is 100 times more of a risk taker than I will ever be.
I'm just trying to understand here, are you saying this type of stuff to be supportive of the swami or to distract the conversation? What is the use of even stating such a thing? The words the swami spoke affect ISKCON to this day. In all likelihood a revival of his rhetoric will be coming soon unless people speak up NOW. ISKCON is already writing "codes of conduct" for their followers. Much of this stuff is based on ideological stances by the swami. It's only natural young fanatical devotees will want to re-create the good-ol-days at some point.
I had a similar issue with Whirlwind. I think it's very disingenuous to come on this particular thread and pretend that there is some aspects of this ideology that are cool and others not and the we need to consider the context of the swamis words etc. What is the context for Krishna's many shady pastimes or countless scriptural verse, that they take literally, that spell discord and create trauma? What "context" is there to Krishna stealing clothes from 12 year old girls bathing in a lake? What is the grand lesson here that we will learn? That god is a jerk? That god likes to agitate us for no reason? That god is a pervert? That god is pleased by looking at makes prepubescent girls? Or is some swami brainwashing you to see it as "sweet eternal pastimes of the all-attractive!"?
Take a slice of that pie and apply the same mechanism to chanting 16 rounds or any other BS they peddle. and tell me honestly if there is any contextual reason that can be rationally explained as to why anyone should do any of this and a REAL example of it actually having some profound, transformative, awakening, and enlightening effect on people.
As Frozen nick posted as well: There is a forced "happiness" that they try to use to recruit people. An outwardly performance of "love". But this is to the real deal once you are well in the cult. This fades and is replaced by actually a rather harsher reality. AND, lets not forget an even harsher one not too long ago where kids were being forced to wake at 4 am, take cold bucket showers, and chant like automatons and told to bow and worship some guy they never really met or had any meaningful, real relationship with. Many of these kids were abused physically, sexually, emotionally and many parents and mothers and wives also suffered. Many families are broken up, and in general a life outside the dynamics of the cult are viewed with near terror and lots of fear and unwarranted paranoia.
Those that do leave, feel they are giving up the "highest treasure of Devine love!" and live in self deprecation, self vilification and irrational fear of the 'material world". They find it hard to form relationships, may even turn to drugs to avoid facing the awkwardness they feel, self hatred and anger.
It's incredibly hard to shed something that you were born into or began at a very young age. That is why folks like Gaura Rader, Rama and Radhika and MANY MANY others are an inspiration to me personally. They did it. Some less successfully than others, but they looked this bullshit in the eye and said: THIS IS LIE. I HAVE BEEN LIED TO. I DO NOT NEED THIS GARBAGE TO FEEL WHOLE. I DO NOT NEED THIS MIND SCRAMBLE TO LOVE MYSELF, LOVE LIFE, LOVE OTHERS and FIND PEACE.
Running helped a lot.