Anyone wanna go to a ayurveda course?: [www.ayurvedicliving.com]

[www.statecraft.co.in]

[skepticalinquirer.org]

Quote: Ayurveda originated in India and is still widely used there. In a list of longevity by country, India ranked 125th. That suggests that the “science of life” hasn’t done a very good job of keeping people alive. But if the Indians see it differently and want to rely on “ancient wisdom” instead of on modern science-based medicine, it’s their funeral (sometimes literally!). Deepak Chopra is the most prominent proponent of Ayurveda in the United States. He was trained in India; in my opinion, America would have been better off if he had stayed there...

[skepdic.com]

Quote: Meditation is also a significant therapy in Ayurveda. According to Kurt Butler (1992):

The beliefs and practices of Ayurvedic medicine fall into three categories: (1) some that are obvious, well established, and widely accepted by people who have never heard of Ayurveda [e.g., relax and don't overeat]; (2) a few that proper research may eventually prove valid and useful [herbal remedies may contain useful drugs, but their dangers and limitations often have not been scientifically investigated]; (3) absurd ideas, some of which are dangerous [e.g., that most disease and bad luck is due to demons, devils, and the influence of stars and planets; or that you should treat cataracts by brushing your teeth, scraping your tongue, spitting into a cup of water, and washing your eyes for a few minutes with this mixture]. (Wheeler)

[www.quickanddirtytips.com]

—————————————————

The issue is not that there are not some good aspects or facts in Ayurveda/hatha yoga etc. Of course, there is. The issue is that there is often little to no real science behind it. No measurable verification beyond hearsay. That's not a rational method/system. In the end this often leads to misinformation or complete nonsense ideas. Bhaktivedanta wrote a letter to one of his disciples claiming that salt and milk cause leprosy. Butler forbid his followers to give asthma medication to their asthmatic kids. I had an ayurvedic doctor look at my irises in Vrindavan and claim I had smoked pot, which I had never done in my life. I had a "Vedic" Jyotish astrologer tell me all sorts of bullshit that never happened in my past and never happened in my future as I got older. Not even close. yet my guru at the time recommended I see him. In all cases, I spent money on these clowns. Meanwhile, I had a pre-cancerous lesion on my nose that I went to a dermatologist about and they gave me a steroid cream that killed the cellular aberration. Science comrades. God gave us brains, let's do the ultimate service and offer the utmost praise to the almighty and use that shit!

Haribol. Oh yeah, and RUN.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ayurveda has some use. Naturally. I should hope
> so. Why invest so much energy into systematizing.
> But it has nothing to do with the Krishna
> religion, and simply to do with human ingenuity.
> But naturally, there is much misinformation and
> utter nonsense in Ayurveda. In science and
> medicine, there is rigorous tests used to prove
> efficacy. If something has no curative value it is
> abandoned.

There are also many scammers in the domain of natural medicine enthusiasts, including Ayurveda. Which of course is very dangerous, at least for the wallet.

But in modern medicine, or rather healthcare, there are also many false promises. Most chemotherapy ends with death or destruction of the body. Some of the doctors in my family have been convinced by me not to give the last infusion to a sick person. The head of the clinic said that a possible herbalist from the nearby town would give 2 years of life. The person lived for another 12 years. There are such cases.

The pharmaceutical industry has its own rules. A dead patient doesn't pay. A healthy patient does not pay. A chronically ill patient pays regularly. And that governs many aspects of treatment.

For example, 1st generation neuroleptics such as haloperidol caused akathisia, facial nerve paralysis, defecation problems, drug addiction such as drug craving, problems with eye accommodation, etc. etc.

What I did in my illness was the use of modern and unconventional medicine, as well as the simple principles of Ayurveda. Plus the Ayurvedic doctor, great effort in rehabilitation. I didn't trust anyone. I researched the proposals. I chose the dose myself and so on and so on.


> Cancer is not a single disorder. There
> are literally thousands of cancers and each
> organism will respond to different treatments. Of
> which there are many and many do not work for one
> cancer versus another based on affected body
> system etc. So to say that Ayurveda helped your
> friend live 19 years longer is meaningless. And
> certainly, nothing related to Krishna
> consciousness.

For them means much. Also their kids. Even everything can say.

> Babjis living in the forest in an altered state of
> consciousness is not a goal in life. If it is,
> what purpose does it serve? Of what service are
> they to the average human, society, and this
> world? They live in an altered fantasy removed
> from the functions and realities of this world.

Human society is more like animal. Cruelty etc. The domination of coterie, oligarchs, corporations, parties, mafia systems, etc. Nothing great.


> Anyway, what are we talking about? There is no
> such babajis. Have you met babajis in vrndaban?
> They all have cellphones. Any western babji is
> simply sitting on Facebook all day spewing
> political views and krishna memes. Lets be serious
> man. Harinam Chintamani captured my fancy as well,
> as did the Tattva Sandharbas and many other
> "esoteric" Vaishnava works. WHEN I WAS UNDER THE
> INFLUENCE OF THIS CULT.


Basically, from the things I had the opportunity to learn, you can find absurd behaviors in the category of e.g. security (handling of equipment). It is also astonishing, for example, forcing offerings (since according to the Bhagavad Gita, even a small thing should be sacrificed with love). Well, but priests in Catholicism also force sacrifices. At the sacraments. Somewhere at some stage, the institution has its headquarters, infrastructure and, as you wrote, it needs money. And then the divine "Somewhere two gather in My Name, I am there among them" disappears - because the church that needs money for electricity, water and a roof is gathered. So these are strange behaviors that are repulsive and different.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2021 05:11AM by DaWatcher.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uncondotional love? Yes sure!

Yes, I no longer believe in this unconditional love in SIF. Lots of examples of a lack of empathy. But for the record - festivals. Nice kirtans, all sorts of activities, that's cool. Bombing with love. But for those old members who were helping to do this, there was not enough thank you. Oh, recruitment. But definitely a plus - nice ideas and, above all, kirtan. And the rest is a bit of a facade.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For people already struggling with mental health
> issues or who have a history of trauma, such cults
> can be even more damaging, Which is really sad
> considering that it is such people who are most
> vulnerable and attracted to such groups.
> Inevitably they build their entire identity and
> life around the cult only to, naturally, have to
> face their shortcomings full head when they
> eventually arise, sooner or later.

True

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The beliefs and practices of Ayurvedic medicine
> fall into three categories: (1) some that are
> obvious, well established, and widely accepted by
> people who have never heard of Ayurveda [e.g.,
> relax and don't overeat]; (2) a few that proper
> research may eventually prove valid and useful
> [herbal remedies may contain useful drugs, but
> their dangers and limitations often have not been
> scientifically investigated]; (3) absurd ideas,
> some of which are dangerous [e.g., that most
> disease and bad luck is due to demons, devils, and
> the influence of stars and planets; or that you
> should treat cataracts by brushing your teeth,
> scraping your tongue, spitting into a cup of
> water, and washing your eyes for a few minutes
> with this mixture]. (Wheeler)

What interests me is the reduced dynamics of the system that is the human organism. So if someone knows the basics of the basics of control theory and knows what are the solutions to the equation
dX / dt = AX (t) + BU (t). Homeostasis and stability. Chemical, physical, electrochemical, etc. Dynamics reduction. Reliable stability margins. Trajectories etc. This area.

I hear you DaWatcher. Yes, ayurveda and any number of arts and sciences associated loosely with the Veda and finding its origin in ancient India are absolutely worthy of scientific consideration and review. There is no doubt useful knowledge that results in thousands of years of development. That being said, I am mostly interested in how the cults use this type of stuff as a tie-in to the larger cult ideas. The fact remains that none of the Ayurveda or contemporary hatha and even most meditation practices as taught by SIF or similar Krishna cults is really relevant to its core ideology and it is by no means some timeless revelation. It's slow, incremental evolution/development of various quasi-sciences, art forms and philosophies. I think one of the big issues is that they promote it all as some homogenous revelatory download. It's not. Vastu, Jyotish, Ayurveda, mathematics, philosophy etc, developed in India much like it developed in other parts of the world. Slowly, over the course of thousands and even millions of years. Along with the advent of written language and agricultural development there was no "advanced" prehistory. The pyramids were built over a loooooooong period of time. Many people died slaving to build them. Devotees often approach the veda as some sort of pyramid that landed from space all in one piece. The same logic wold apply to the evolution of the Krishna god, not mentioned in any original vedic tects, by name or otherwise. Let alone radha and Chaitanya and everything else your average bhakta burps up as "fact".

Anyway, I think you get my drift. And I get yours. I just want to stay on point in what makes this cult so elusive and how it often casts a wide web. If Ayurveda helps you or you have some systematic and scientific understanding of some aspects of it, I totally get that. I did herb enemas and drank cow urine for years under the order of an ayurvedic doctor recommended to me by fellow devotees (for anxiety attacks—which miraculously went away when I freed my mind of this cult). It did NOTHING for me. I appreciate its place in history and I do believe that certain aspects of it are common sense. And that is my main point. LIfe should be lived in accordance with common sense and works for you uniquely, not what is supposedly touted to work for everyone, but obviously does not.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hear you DaWatcher. Yes, ayurveda and any number
> of arts and sciences associated loosely with the
> Veda and finding its origin in ancient India are
> absolutely worthy of scientific consideration and
> review. There is no doubt useful knowledge that
> results in thousands of years of development. That
> being said, I am mostly interested in how the
> cults use this type of stuff as a tie-in to the
> larger cult ideas.

That's true. They use it for recruiting, they don't know it well. Here I gave an example of a form for "getting to know your dosha". The form was done haphazardly. Without explanation, etc. Belief in Ayurveda was blind, not supported by thorough knowledge.

> homogenous revelatory download. It's not. Vastu,
> Jyotish, Ayurveda, mathematics, philosophy etc,
> developed in India much like it developed in other
> parts of the world. Slowly, over the course of
> thousands and even millions of years. Along with
> the advent of written language and agricultural
> development there was no "advanced" prehistory.
> The pyramids were built over a loooooooong period
> of time. Many people died slaving to build them.

They weren't technically advanced, but they knew Pythagorean law here and there.

> Devotees often approach the veda as some sort of
> pyramid that landed from space all in one piece.
> The same logic wold apply to the evolution of the
> Krishna god, not mentioned in any original vedic
> tects, by name or otherwise. Let alone radha and
> Chaitanya and everything else your average bhakta
> burps up as "fact".

That is a thing to investigate.

>
> Anyway, I think you get my drift. And I get yours.

Yes

> went away when I freed my mind of this cult). It
> did NOTHING for me. I appreciate its place in
> history and I do believe that certain aspects of
> it are common sense. And that is my main point.
> LIfe should be lived in accordance with common
> sense and works for you uniquely, not what is
> supposedly touted to work for everyone, but
> obviously does not.

I understand you.
For me, Chris Butler's lectures were inspiring. Kirtans. The atmosphere was good at first. I met extraordinary people who, in the flood of capitalism, chose to search for transcendence. Strange behaviors began to appear, rude and incongruous with the spiritual seriousness. Fanaticism.

Ultimately, the hierarchical arrangement is questionable. Guru idol in Hawaii, a family that does not show seriousness because it lived off the marijuana trade, incidents. Below, the initiated caste is also layered. Those in advance can only smell Wail Lana mango over the internet and so on.

And the uninitiated. Working in dedication for 25 years. It is difficult for a sane person to accept a sanga where an initiated disciple does not care for a sick wife, does not pay the debts to ordinary sheep. He denies their existence. How is it possible that he has been initiated? Or another initiate reminds an uninitiated devotee who repeatedly helped him with a $ 25 debt that appeared 5 years ago, insulting him when that devotee forgave no less than 30,000 other SIF debtors, he helps repeatedly. When they broke up, the first one strenuously tries to feed on him by third parties. Or 25 years of devotional servant who they told him to be a horse, then he was a horse, be like an ape, then he act like an ape, etc. either a father of a family doing outreach or one employing many devotees. Great seriousness and responsibility. Still not initiated...So many years.

And initiated couple. Son. Marriage. Guy goes to young woman...

Or trust the leader who leaves the room when the child cries and yells "that if someone does not silence the child, he will choke him with these hands."

It's hard for someone in his right mind to accept this arrangement. This forces you to suspect that the Guru is not there, is imprisoned or substituted by someone, etc.

Sorry liers. Never ever.

Farewell.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2021 04:31PM by DaWatcher.

Run Forest Run, Everybody in that cult has built their identity around K consciousness.
Not only the mentally ill and those who have a history of trauma.
Of course their identity is built around it. We are told that our identity is eternal loving servant of Krishna.
The cult is full of extremely sane, talented, no past trauma people who hold very good jobs.
They were still brainwashed and mesmerized by butler.
When we have a history of abuse and mental illness, we have a tendency to put up with abuse more easily and normslize it. This is the only difference.
I know a girl who plays her cards like a champ and all she did was to travel from one center to the other. Mix this path with being a nomad who enjoyed krishna tourism.
Take the bliss and leave the rest. Like a bee.
She never answered to anybody. She had boundaries as solid as steel.
I know people who entered sane and left with anorexia and temporary insanity.
That girl had it all: good family, beauty, nice personality. She was the favorite of the leader of the center...
She held her crap together externally but on the inside she was pushed beyond her limits by one of butler’s most dear disciples.
She ended up running away and the police had to look for her.
I entered that vortex solely because I was a very sincere seeker of the truth.
I am a loner and hated with all my being to be surrounded by people every day.
What made me stay from the beginning was the way I felt. I was very quickly thrown my first supernatural phenomenon in order to make me beleive that this path was extraordinary.
I stayed because I was also benefitting from the path as much as I was destroyed by it. Fully in love with the deities and butler.
Islam and Christianity were forced upon many via the sword.
Krishna consciousness was very gently and in a discreet way brought into the west.
What were Bhaktivedanta’s weapons: The Maha Mantra, Bhagavad Gita and other names of the deities.
If people think these mantras are ordinary. Then good luck.
A path that is so seemingly beautiful and innocent turned out to be this amazing mess.
The Krishna consciousness started as a peaceful crusade. But the goal remains the same: Worship and Obedience.
Religions are boxes where the soul must accept one scripture, one deity, one teacher.
Bible/New testament=Jesus (the god of jesus is a bit kinder)
Torah=Moses (the angry god of israel)
Koran= Mohammed (The merciful Allah)
Bhagavad Gita= Disciplic succession (The thief of hearts Krishna)
As much as all these paths elevate us, offer good values, transcendental happiness..., they also limit us.
Is it a coincidence that the birth of Jesus and Krishna are rather similar?
Immaculate conception, persecuted by nasty kings...
The fact that Jesus is a hebrew mystic Yogi. That his teachings are close to bhakti?
The fact that Muslims also chant on beads, bow down, take their shoes before entering the mosque, require the same proper behavior between male and female, encourages women to be modest....
That the black cube on the head of jews is also present in the Mecca?
I spent all my life since I was a child respecting and loving the god and all the religions.
I wore the Allah, the star of David, aspired to be a nun, celebrated the birth of Jesus (not my religion) then ended up in the fantasy land of Krishna and his 16,108 wives.
I never saw a separataion between any of these religions and found happiness in relating to that higher power.
Be it a formless god or a krishna, balrama, radha, nitia gaur...
It was all quite nice and my faith carried me for many years until I took the red pill and there is no turning back.
I leave each person to reach their own conclusions. I did my best to make others understand that this reality is much more fringe that it seems.
That the beings on the altar are next level supernatural.
They are patiently waiting to see when I will forfeit. And I have not come to that conclusion very lightly.
As a person who hates the ordinary, I guess it is better to play a dangerous consciouss game of chess with the gods (architects of this reality) than to be an unconscious pawn in the hands of of butler.
Sorry I wasted the time of all of you on this forum with my long “fringe” stories.
I am not sure I made any valuable contributions by going deeper than the abuse, lies, brainwashing.
I was once told I have too much to say. Lol! That was when I was 19.
I must be a nightamre by now. Giving you all a well deserved break.
See you on the other side of the veil of lies and the science of mind control.

Results may wildly vary, should be their disclaimer.

Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen lesen Sie die SOI-Packungsbeilage aber besser fragen Sie Ihren Arzt oder Apotheker.

Exactly:
For information on risks and side effects, read the SOI package insert, but it is better to ask your doctor or pharmacist.

The concept of the moiety, becoming whole only in conjunction with the object of love/affection/desire/focus/meditation and any number of variants on the theme are not new, but rather as old as day. Early myths recognized the paradox of life, the yin and yang structure of macro and micro, of space, time, of being and non-being, of light and darkness, love vs. lust etc. These concepts and varying notions of it have expressions in many if not all major religions, primal myths, cults and philosophies and poetry. It's really a fundamental concept. How it is applied, practiced and realized varies by tradition, culture, philosophy and religious doctrine. But suffice it to say, it's at the crux of most spiritual systems.

We can argue its origin and who gets it has the right idea, or if it's even the right idea to begin with. Some try to experience this practice through intense emotional states created by sex, drugs, breathwork, meditation, cold exposure, kirtan, japa, reading the love stories of krishna and radha/gopis or Samkhya, Advaita, yoga and other processes. The goal is essentially the same. To dissolve one's sense of self/autonomy/difference/separateness and unify it with the

The whole point of a religious doctrine is to establish a system/blueprint for how to go about realizing/experiencing that state or reality. And religions/cults go to great lengths to really complicate that. You will be asked to chnat on 108 beads, some mantra, 16 times, follow xyz rules, shave your head, leave a sikha, tie the sikha, wrap the brahman thread 3 times around your thumb, take achman 3 times, while fucking twirling around and clapping behind your back. You will be asked to read all manner of crazy myths and told that they are factual historical people, events and situations. You will be asked to wash your gurus dirty jocks, make complicated videos for him, post them on social media to "purify humanity" and vote for his political candidate. You get the idea.

When all is said and done you will be standing on your head, offering a ghee lamp clockwise to a plastic statue while being no closer to any realistic state described above. It's not that you will not have your blissful moments or get used to and comfortable with your new reality. Unfortunately, youu will. You may even reject the reality at hand altogether and pretend it is "Maya" and live in a mild state of fear of engaging with the world around you. Or you may tend more towards a practical approach of "karma yoga" and engaging in your "dharma" and living a "saatvik" life. And these are all nice and usful ways to remain a part of society. In fact, it can be argued that the gita largely advocates karma yoga, i/e/ doing your duty, engaging in that which you are naturally talented and trying to just be an all-around responsible, decent person. I'm all for that. But i take it a step further that you need not really fill your mind and time with all the other stuff these cults proote to be that. You can in fact and should in fact study and question why your cult even requires you to do half the stuff it does and by what authority and measurable process. The answer will be a resounding echo.

The scriptures of all faiths suggest a simple idea when all is said and done: Man proposes, God disposes. Krishna, god, reality, the universe, brahman—reacts to our ebb and flow because we have invented and created them. And so we can argue them or find a reason for them into our existence. The varying expression of reality that we have, are as unique as we can imagine them to be. But until we have valid proof or a consistent method with uniform reuslts and application, it is simply an opinion and can be taken as such. No need to hang up your coat if it is not something that makes sense to you or makes you feel like you are stuck, emotionally, spiritually or materially.

I see on here many comments that devotees are kind or successful or do good welfare work etc etc. Yes, that's great and if that is what their Krishna consciousness helps them to be and they need it to be that way, by all means. But it is not the Krishna consciousness that is responsible for those things. Some of the most intelligent, kind, generous, and happy people I know as well as successful and inspirational are not devotees. Not by a long shot. Sp we can say it is their karma, their choice etc. But all that aside, karma, reincarnation and any number of ideas we like in Gaudiya Vaishnavism are not the philosophical property of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Even the achintyabedhabedha concept is not new. Yin Yang is precisely that and predates any Chaitanya saint or Nimbarka or others.

The point is that every novel concept is simply a remix of a previous novel concept going back to the day some ape discovered how to control fire, harness the ability to make sounds, communicate in a language, create art, music and discover and convey concepts of what beauty is, what truth is, what meaning, purpose and life is about. And trust me, every culture, prehistoric and contemporary has played and toyed with these ideas endlessly to "remix" what they consider paramount and of utmost importance.

India, the "holy land" and where this particular faith and others like it find their orgin is not superior/better or in any way blessed in any meaningful way because of these religions/philosophies. Like everyone else, they are subject to the raw realities of an often unloving, uncompassionate, and very violent universe. It's greatest and lasting and standing contribution is found primarily in Brahma vidya and Samkhya systems of philosophy. All other religions that grew out of that to encompass theistic ideas are somehow directly or indirectly a remix of those central ideas—with added layers of complexity often totally irrespective and irrelevant to the core tenants. it's almost as if the idea was too simple for man to grasp so they needed to make it more complicated. And then the endless remixes started. But as is often the case, the remix is never really as good as the original. And the fact is that the remix would have never existed had there not been the original to begin with.

Another observation:

Many devotees will often take to drugs and alcohol when they leave the cult or even remain in the cult as fringe devotees doing these things because lets face it, the practices/philosophy did not leave them any happier, blissful or content. Some even engaged in such activities because they hate themselves and feel fallen and well, what the fuck, I'm just a worm in stool so might as well get shitfaced. Maybe then God will finally notice me. After all, Nitai is the savior of the most fallen, so might as well be as fallen as I can be. Such people will continue to go to the temple/center and pretend it is purifying them etc. In fact, we are even told such nonsense in the cult that when we are sincerely chanting "many impurities rise to the top of our consciousness". As a general rule this is why sometimes these practices are really not the best way to deal with mental health issues. They create a sort of vortex of spiraling emotional states that are hard to contain and often lead to depression and self-loathing. and in extreme situations suicide or severe mental breaks/psychosis etc. Ex devotees or those in between cults can often find themselves in a very lonely and isolated space as there are not many people who can relate to what they went through and experienced. Krishna consciousness can be a very complex web of rituals, rules, philosophical concepts, traditions, cultural nuances etc—this can literally scramble your brain over time and make it difficult to relate to anything and anyone outside the structure of the cult dynamic. Floundering bhaktas will keep wearing neck beads, keeping sikhas or occasionally chanting a round in desperation. and it's near impossible to explain to a therapist the details of your situation let alone anyone outside the cult. To make matters worse, the cult, from an institutional standpoint, has no mechanisms/process, or systems in place to help such devotees. They are essentially "on their own". There is no unbiased party that can hear their plea, doubt, argument or views without risking judgment, ex-communication or cheap-n-fast advice that butters over the crux of the issue, "just keep chanting Prabhu! All will be revealed in due time by gurus grace".

Anyway, it's a tragedy I'm sorry to say the state that most find themselves in, in such groups. And to say that it "works for some" is highly subjective. What exactly is working for them? Some temporary aspects may work for them for some time. Everything that is new is a novelty in the beginning. So the badge of honor in any such cult is defined by the length of time you've been in it. No one wants to admit that wasted their time for 20, 30, 40 years. In the beginning, Prabhupada was everything to his followers. But when he passed it became quickly apparent that they really just sort of built their life around this personality/persona with little in the way of any personal growth/advancement. To perpetuate the illusion/sentiment, they made plastic statues of the founder and put them in every temple. Old-time disciples, endlessly recount the grand stories of the past that have since taken on almost mythical tones. Not much unlike the old man at the bar who is reminiscing about the good-old-days. But of course, they paint such recollections as "transcendental" because it recounts the pastimes of their perfect teacher. But what kind of life is this? The devotee sitting on FB recounting the good-ol-days of early ISKCON or Butlers group is trying to appeal to the new generation by posting on Facebook or Instagram and everyone blindly shouts "jai jai" and moves on to the next post. Is this a substantial spiritual life? Is this even remotely what the sages of the past were trying to discuss and convey? Emoji namastes and rabid haribols?

These are the things I ponder when I look at it all and it gladdens me I no longer have to worry about it. Well, besides trying to convey it to all of you and ask, "is it not so?"