Thank you Truth Wins.

First of all, I want to get out of the way that I am in no way negating anyones mystical experiences, for whatever they are worth and have contributed to your life.

The problem with mysticism and the so-called mystical experience is that everyone can claim to have one.

This is problematic for a few reasons:

1. No one else can truly relate or testify to your experience.
2. Nothing about the process is going to systematically result in a similar experience for others. In other words, what exactly were you doing at the time to deserve or produce such an experience? Can others hope to achieve the same? And is there a functional benefit to such an experience? Does it help you with your relationships or make you a better person or answer any of life's big questions?
3. Because there is no way to verify, it's the classic scenario of your word against mine.
4. And finally, what constitutes a mystical experience? What is mystical to you can be very easily explained by science or psychology or any manner of rational explanations. But because there is no agreed-upon definition of what mystical is—beyond an irrational experience happening to you—it can literally be almost anything you consider "mystical".

We alone are responsible for creating divine forces in our lives, no others exist besides the ones we muster up. It's called taking responsibility for our experience. When a buddha character or Jesus character claims they experience some particular "state", we assume they mean a state of mind. At best, we assume the experience happened to their "soul", which is some sort of hidden self that the average person has little to no functional realization or experience of—if you are being honest with YOUR SELF. Its presence is alluded to by playful manipulation of language. We call it consciousness, life force, awareness, brahman, atman, jiva, and so on. But these are mostly playing on words and actually individually are explained variously by assorted philosophies and spiritual traditions. In that sense, all religions are ultimately cults and all spiritual paths that try to dictate what path leads to some summum bonum are simply cults as well. Because they have to use coercive methods to try to override your natural intuition of what makes sense to you. Just as a child is not born believing in any god or guru, these things are mostly, if not exclusively, planted in our minds by those personalities in our life we are socially programmed to believe are superior in intellect or social status, etc.

Putting weight in supernatural or psychotic breaks in our mind usually holds few usable and functional secrets. The mind is first and foremost subject to suggestion and a master of distortion. Many have dissolved their ego (through intense breathwork or meditation or drugs or simply malfunctions in the brain). It usually leaves them fragile beings who can only maintain a sense of sanity or sense of security within the construct of the cult or the specific rituals and mechanisms they used to achieve the so-called mystical state (i.e. chanting every day on repeat or saying some prayer or engaging in some ritual or meditation).

I would argue that the goal of life is to embrace ego and all that it reveals. Lest we succumb to self-delusion and pointless rhetoric. When the krishna god says to surrender to him, he means to flow with that which is already flowing. Even beyond the krishna faith. It's simply a stepping stone to a much larger narrative. If you don't believe that, look where you are now.

I was a pujari for 3 years. Very intimate contact daily with the deity. I had times were I felt deep sentiment and emotion. I had times where I cried in frenzied prayer and I did it all with total focus and love. In such a state there were times I felt the diety engaging with me. A glance, wink, subtle flute song. Something object moved or a food item seemed to shift or even disappear.

Of course, this was all mental projections. I wanted it to be true. Confirmation bias and a mind consumed by fanatical thinking will eventually play tricks and manifest some mental play. Like the person in a concert crowd who is convinced the rock star looked directly at them and winked or waved. Complete self-delusion. Metal/wood/plastic statues don't do a thing. And, it's not like the rest of my life became blessed or better because of it. In fact, there was nothing about the experience that was functionally useful. There is a lot of implication to consider when we start to believe that God will break the laws of physics to somehow interact with us as if we are specifically special in some way. Perhaps the one true thing that manifests from it that is positive is that I can say I witnessed firsthand the effects of religiuos fervor and fanatical sentimentalism hijacking my mind and sense organs. And I have seen this many times. I recall one woman who claimed that the Jaganath deity on the rath cart was telling her to sew some clothes for him. She was in utter tears and blubbering madly. I later found out she was experiencing her kids going off to college and any nuber of major life changes. I could not help but consider that much of that was at play in her emotional outburst and manufactured "mystical' experience. And I would argue that in most cases, if not all, such experiences are exactly there for that reason: To connect us with our deeper emotions and shake us up to make some adjustments and move beyond patterns of thinking that were not working for us.

The mind generates all types of fantasy. It's perhaps not entirely useless, so I take that back, but its function and usefulness are often considered from the cult dynamic. So a dream or vision or seemingly very real experience that is trying to jolt us away from the dependence on the cult, ends up being interpreted only within the context of the cult. This losing it's imprt and meaning. That is why we often will have such experiences but rarely do anything forward-thinking about it. Instead, we chalk it up to "krishna and gurudev want me to do this!".

When you abandon such dependant thinking, these types of experiences will often reveal that we have a rather unhealthy mental dependence on the cult dynamics. We actually give more meaning and clout to these gods and gurus than makes any logical sense for what we actually have gotten in return. Again, to me, the proof is in the pudding. I see no devotees who are in any meaningful way better off than they were 20-40 years ago. If anything they are simply more and more out of touch with reality and life has sailed them by.

I don't feel like you have not addressed the mystical side of the krishna faith. You have and others have chimed in. The problem is that sich experiences don't really reveal any deeper realities about the krishna religion. Nor does the krishna religion ever stipulate that these experieces are unified in their expression and reveald in some very specific way. As i mentioned before, there is no explanation for how the person is revealed their so-called spiritual body. And when we read such a phrase as "revealed spiritual body" from an objective and rational standpoint we are technically speaking about the height of insanity, psychosis and losing all touch with reality. How is it functional to be a 40-year-old male with 2 kids, a wife and a job and experience yourself to be in actuality a 12-year-old gopi girl (or since people don't like that one, maybe a flip flop of Subala Sakha in vraj?), It feels to be like the goal needs to be reassessed because that is what they are selling to the general public. Not some ambigious "love of god" and peace and self-realization. That is absolutely not what they are selling.

So my plea of reason to you, Truth Wins, is not to abandon the fact that your mystical experiences are real, they undoubtedly are. But rather to try to understand their deeper import outside the context of the krishna god, gurus and scriptures. And see if they reveal something deepr about what you should be doing and how these types of mystical revelations are there to reveal specific things to you, about yourself. Not about you in context to made-up gods and gurus that were planted in your brain by a cult.

In less mystical news:

Just leaving this here. So-called "Vedic culture" at work:

[www.bbc.com]
[www.cnn.com]
[www.hindustantimes.com]
[timesofindia.indiatimes.com]
Same Fanatic saying this: [twitter.com]

And then we have conspiracy nutjob Tulsi Gabbard concerned that the word "women" is somehow vanishing from our daily vocabulary based on an article that actually mentions the words women", as well as "her", "she", "daughter" numerous times. Tell me that these types of tweets by Gabbard don't stink to high heaven as total conspiracy fishing? She's a master at creating BS narratives and division in her constituents and fanatic followers. [twitter.com]

By her own religious dogma, what does it matter if we recognize women or men or what we call them? Are we not all spirit souls—she should be happy that society is dissolving such labels? All of a sudden it's a big deal to seek conversational equality by modifying the language we use to be more inclusive? I don't have an opinion either which way. I don't think we can ever weed out such lingo, so it's a non-concern to me. But apparently, it really rubs Butler and Tulsi the wrong way that some random news outlet used PC lingo in their headline. To her, it's symbolic of some deeply rooted sinister motive. Give me a break.

The hypocrisy and diplomacy in the dealings of Tulsi, her guru, SIF and other senior leaders and followers of Butler and similar Krisha groups is astounding when contrasted with their rhetoric of purity and absoluteness. It confuses followers, creates unnecessary tension and division and paints an odd picture of a cult confused about what it actually stands for. On one hand, they tout the so-called glory of Vedic knowledge and "Hinduism" (as they now clamor to stand behind this label even though not once in the history of western Gaudiya Vaishnavas did they ever refer to themselves as Hindu until somehow it suited their narrative) yet it's difficult to find any true expression of anything glorious about it. As recent as 2021 we have dramatic reports of Dalit caste-based rapes running rampant in India and ass-backward pro-vedic rhetoric of a woman's place being baby-making slaves to their husbands. jai ho!

So much for Aham Brahmasmi.

Run Forest Run thank you for your response. I appreciate your deep thinking.
Yes my experiences are mine and they do not really benefit anyone else.
I do not think you imagined those experiences with the deities.
I have had experiences pretty much all my life and even before I entered the path of Bhakti Yoga.
I do not think they have made me a better person other than making me realize that there is more to this reality that we can see witn our material eyes.
What happened to me last summer was beyond anything anybody can imagine. And it was not just one single experience.It was every single day for close 4 months.
The only way I could share them, is to make them pass for scifi in a movie.
I will in no way be able to make anybody believe it was true. And this is not the goal.
I am not sure I became a better person but I may have become stronger and gained a great understanding of how reality works.
Before last summer, I never had a desire to expose butler or enter at war with them.
I almost had this invisible cord that attached me to them and the path.
I always thought maybe one day I will go back but keep distances.
But I knew about some of the things in here. I had looked at Rama’s blog, Henri’s interview....
suddenly I was thrown into fearlessly confronting them. I never knew how it happened and I am still puzzled.
I was minding my own business and I hate confrontations
It was very intense and painful and I am amazed I was able to stand on my feet.
When I came on here and started reading the pages one by one, I realized how dangerous butler is and the importance to shed light on his covert abuse.
As if there is not enough overt abuse. I was sick to realize that a veil had covered my eyes for so many years.
I felt a great sadness to see that my brothers and sisters are blissfully accepting the abomination. That they think it is ok to work for free and getting fined.
They Lie, cheat, steal, abuse... all for guru and krishna. It is Akarma of course.
When I see Tulsi on TV shamelessly lying and pretending that the Elite is controlling others, I cannot take it.
And when she teamed up with Iskcon and got millions of donations. Those we were never to associate with are allies now?
How do they even look in the mirror? How is it possible to be so fake?
What? Your guru is a cult leader and you guys have your own Elite system.
What the hell do you care or dare caring about the welfare of the american people.
First care about the devotees who do not sleep at night to make money for your guru before you worry about the cabal.
I think that the deities reward anybody who worships them. And butler possibly has his own relation despite all he has done.
I sometimes feel as though they are like the genie in the bottle. Whoever polishes it, the genie comes out. Both Krishna and the Aladdin genie are blue.
The only difference is that the genie serves and Krihsna wants to be served.
He may not be lying. He may truly believe he is the chosen one. As you explained it, anybody can trip hard with these deities. No need for LSD.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The mind generates all types of fantasy. It's
> perhaps not entirely useless, so I take that back,
> but its function and usefulness are often
> considered from the cult dynamic. So a dream or
> vision or seemingly very real experience that is
> trying to jolt us away from the dependence on the
> cult, ends up being interpreted only within the
> context of the cult. This losing it's imprt and
> meaning.

I will only humorously and factually quote that, for example, neighbors of one of the centers, partially negative about devotees due to loud kirtans, sometimes appreciated congregational chanting (some liked it, some did not). Sometimes they commented on the practice as "Hary mary" (paraphrase "czary mary" in english: "abracadabra" or "hocus-pocus").

In turn, police officers from the drug department sniffing green oil in the lamps on the altar of the center did not find anything illegal or transcendental ...

> That is why we often will have such
> experiences but rarely do anything
> forward-thinking about it. Instead, we chalk it up
> to "krishna and gurudev want me to do this!".

People in front of the court say, "The devil told me to do this." Mother-in-law ordered to do. Wife ordered to do. Risky to do what others tell you to do. Well, but that's what the military is based on. Order.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 04:55PM by DaWatcher.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What? Your guru is a cult leader and you guys have
> your own Elite system.

There was such an atmosphere and such a narrative, even in the mouths of the most important leaders in Poland, that all "on site" are close to the Guru and all pure devotees. Of course, when you read the rejection list, this dogma becomes technically and logically problematic. But likewise, the children were to be pure and holy. And then the question arises again why the son of one of the icons is in prison until 2030.

The future is not problematic. When he comes out, Mr. Tibby will make him a successor, because Patrick may be worn out by then.

People must find out who butler really is behind his sweet lectures.
When he does that closing his eyes real hard and makes it look he is so sincere and humble.
And the OSCAR for best actor goes to:
chris butler for his role in “The 33rd Acarya”.
Who is the real person behind the misleading emotions and signals we get in our hearts that he is a pure devotee... Because sincerely this is how I accepted him.
I remember one of the nuggets I got, was a mind blowing synchronicity in a lecture.
Butler said:
“my relationship with my students, disciples is transcendental.For exemple if you are In such and such country and I am in such and such country, we are still connected”.
And he specifically mentioned the country I lived in and the country I was intending to go to. This is just one exemple.
This is how I believed he was not ordinary. I accepted him so fast that people were shocked.
Eveything that lured me to him and this process was based on mystical experiences and off the charts emotions.
I am almost sure that this is what happens to most people.
Exposing butler and his non sense is essential. But we must make others understand how one gets trapped in the first place like I did.
We must go deeper and this is why I want to bring that awareness to the public.
butler is a rather ordinary person with some extraordinary forces behind him.
If he was truly a supernatural entity, he would not fear death so much.
And there is also a huge veil of illusion that blinds the followers and nobody ever questions the insanity.
So yes butler is very protected and this protection has made it so he is able to manipulate souls for 40 years.
The cult solely runs on emotions and transcendental experiences. Period.
butler is just a front man the same way tulsi is his front woman.
I like the picture of the gunas that are playing puppet master. The 3 modes of material nature. And the guru is supposed to be beyond those modes.
Look at butler. He is surely a puppet of all those modes himself.
A man who needs to travel in an astronaut suit and spend the money of his followers on booking the whole business class for him and his wife, is JAGAD GURU.
The liberator of the whole planet.
We have no choice but to laugh about it. No screenwriter can come up with this.
He spent all his life fearing diseases and getting killed by Iskcon.
And he dares saying:
The devotees are fearless knowing Krishna is in control.
Oh no please! I am laughing so hard my stomach hurts.
Maya is so damn rutless. How could people get trapped in such non sense?
butler quote:
“coming across the pure devotee of krishna is like hitting the jackpot”.
What jackpot FOOL?
You mean coming across you is the greatest fraud and joke in the krishna consciousness history?
Those poor sincere souls. May the rest in peace. Thankfully they are too blissed out to accept the dark reality.
Sorry people. I sometimes write these things in the hopes that his minions will read them. I hope they are. And maybe by a miracle, it will help them see through the thick walls of illusion.
I think at this point tibby is too scared to look at this site. His spiritual life will be over.

Da Watcher that woman who helped the homeless for 20 years and was never initiated, is one of the lucky ones.
To officially give your life to butler is the greatest misery a soul can go through.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People must find out who butler really is behind
> his sweet lectures.
> When he does that closing his eyes real hard and
> makes it look he is so sincere and humble.
> And the OSCAR for best actor goes to:
> chris butler for his role in “The 33rd Acarya”.
> Who is the real person behind the misleading
> emotions and signals we get in our hearts that he
> is a pure devotee... Because sincerely this is how
> I accepted him.
> I remember one of the nuggets I got, was a mind
> blowing synchronicity in a lecture.
> Butler said:
> “my relationship with my students, disciples is
> transcendental.For exemple if you are In such and
> such country and I am in such and such country, we
> are still connected”.
> And he specifically mentioned the country I lived

In The Bhagavad Gita there is a base for relation- come closer to self realised person, ask submissive questions and serve with devotion.

I asked a person that came to SIF more than 30 ty years ago - how many letters did you write to Jagad Guru and how many answers received? Did not write any.


Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Da Watcher that woman who helped the homeless for
> 20 years and was never initiated, is one of the
> lucky ones.
> To officially give your life to butler is the
> greatest misery a soul can go through.


Great entity. In this selfish worldly emptiness great entity that offered her life, not only for spiritual gifts but just take care for people that have no home, no food and stink. What is interesting she had such a deep serving attitude that many around her often engaged her in their "devotional service". Could not stop themselves. She colud not chant her rounds.great associates from the best sect in the world that only knows the truth could not display a tiny bit of empaty..

So..One of SIF Poland "reformers" asked once if the cult could count on some more credit. Answers was NO.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 09:38PM by DaWatcher.

Never forget to have compassion for our brothers and sisters who got abused by this monster.
Kitcen policies 1996 (possibly New Zeland or Australia)

Rule D 5:
Don’t be late with dinner delivery. Every minute late is 10 dollars (6.98)us dollars.

Those heartless ........ even converted the currency

Rule D 27:
Don’t talk to S or V unless totally necessary to ensure them of their privacy.


I cannot tell you how much I wanted to cry when I saw the rules to deliver food to these 2 fake pure devotees.
How could they do this to people for so many years?
Who the hell do they think they are?
They never thought that this list could land in the RIGHT HANDS.
Sorry bro. Karma is a bitch!

Robots can do that.

And this is the end of the story. Not so horrible like this below, but poetry 3:54 suits. Farewell friends.

[youtu.be]