Pam Ho, with all respect- you have no idea of what has transpired in this cult.
This forum is about ‘Cults, Sects and New Religious Movements” and
this thread is about “Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity”

It is not about a centuries old dissertation on semantics or ancient meanings, or how an old decrepit empire (British) lumped people together out of ignorance of a particular culture.

You should heed your OWN advice and learn a little bit more about what we are doing- take what we are posting here very seriously- this is about a destructive evil cult that has literally destroyed many families and involved themselves in many illegal and nefarious activities in order for ONE person to gain MONEY, POWER and CONTROL, using ANY means necessary.
And all of this is covered by the blanket of Hinduism, according to Tulsi or Bhakti Yoga according to Wai Lana, while Butler apparently has now aligned himself with ISKCON itself, after publicly denouncing ISKCON many times in the past.
This IS about child abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse and spiritual abuse.
This IS about domestic abuse, about misogynism, about marriages destroyed on the whim of a madman.
This IS about violations on a state and federal level, which would surely incriminate many people within the cult.
But most importantly this IS about trying to save just one child from having to suffer what Rama went thru or Eigenerherr. There are so many others who have yet to step forward; and when they do, it will be immense.

To say otherwise is an insult to all of us who have suffered at the hands of this so called Guru and the cult.

Yo Pam! I may understand where you come from a little better than most here, but you don't have a clue the true teachings within Chris Butler's group.

They are not on any websites and none have even leaked out here.

But if you saw my mum's stockpile of suitcases full of "members only" lectures you'd see the true teachings, hateful, abusive, homophobic. Hours upon hours of Chris Butler in filthy pornographic detail describing and deriding homosexual sex acts. These lectures I was raised on.

You never mention anything negative about Butler.

I read one of your comments trying to discredit this forum. You said the only legitimate person open about their identity was Cara James. You went into every detail of her story, saying how she just wanted her boyfriend, etc.
You knew all that but didn't breathe a word about me, I came on this forum before Cara and was very active that whole time. There is no way you knew all that about her and not everything about me.

You are extremely guilty of omitting the truth and obscuring, absolutely consciously, the abuse I personally suffered at the hands of Chris Butler.

You are the one with an agenda to make Chris Butler out as a benign Hare Krishna guru.

You are either far too ignorant about him to even begin to broach the subject, or consciously omitting the full scope of the nature of the Chris Butler cult.

For what, so you can have a female Hare Krishna in office at any cost necessary?

I do love you, I harbor no resentment and I truly do support you in saying the Guru is unnecessary in today's world.

But I think because you think they only have a limited influence, and are unnecessary you downplay the potential a guru mind controller like Butler has to absolutely dominate the thinking of every serious disciple, Tulsi Gabbard is the tip of that spear, this is fact.

If Butler wasn't an absolute mind controlling cult leader

WHY HAVE I LOST MY ENTIRE FUCKING FAMILY???
WHY AM I TO GO THROUGH THE REST OF MY LIFE COMPLETELY FUCKING ALONE?

Oh, you won't mention that, and if you do you shrug it off with "all the gurus in India are worse"

That is absolute bullshit. All for your little infatuation with Tulsi Gabbard you exert your energy to deny my experience.

I hope my pain is all worth your successful untarnished image of Tulsi Gabbard and Chris Butler.
At least I'm just a dumb western kid who should feel lucky that I didn't have it as bad as all the abusive gurus in India.

And backing Rama up, There's my story too. I have been completely open about who I am and my experiences as well as giving lots of evidence of the indoctrination and abuse we suffered.

Dismissiveness couched in faux discussion/debate is still dismissiveness and it completely undermines the experience of the people here. Yet you yourself claim you have no dog in the fight, so why do you think you have any right to put down other people's experiences? Especially when they are completely relevant to this thread. If you have no dog in this fight, what exactly are you trying to achieve here? To correct our understanding of our own experiences? Isn't that a little presumptive to say the least?

Your use of loaded language isn't lost on me. "Your speculative opinions" - no, experience is not speculative, it's fact based opinions based on a very real understanding and experience of the cult we are talking about. If you have no experience with the cult, the only speculative opinion is yours. I cannot be "mistaken" about the things that I have experienced as a result of the science of identity foundation - being denied an education, having my family unit destroyed, watching the extreme secrecy that this group operates in, including having my sisters location withheld from me when I asked to send her a congratulations card on the birth of her son, all because she is near Chris Butler. Or having to destroy letters we received, lectures tapes we received. Or the daily reminder that we are not allowed to talk about our experiences in the cult or else. Well Rama and I both chose "or else" and we lost our entire families because of it. And we aren't the only ones, there are many others, we just speak for them through our experiences. Would you like to dismiss those as well?

The trouble with people like you is that no amount of proof, no amount of people's hurt will ever be enough for you to open up your eyes. You'll always try to shut people like myself and Rama and the rest of the people on this thread up by trying to discredit us with irrelevant "facts" that show our apparent ignorance of a wider history we're getting wrong. You're right, I am ignorant of those things, because I only know what I was allowed to know. Chris Butler hated ISKCON, anyone with any experience of him like Rama and I had, knows this very well. We were not allowed to dress like them, act like them and I remember many conversations when they were openly mocked. We were taught Chris Butler's special brand of "Krishna Consciousness". That's all we know of it, and personally all I care to know of it. I don't wish to know more because the abusive nature of it was enough for me. You can have it and all the history that goes with it and be an expert in it for all I care. It's not going to change anything of how I grew up and what I know specifically of Chris Butler and his teachings.

The rest of what you say is gibberish and irrelvant to this thread. If you want to argue the symantics of the Hare Krishna philosophy, kindly do it somewhere else.

This thread best serves the First Amendment by staying focused on its
stated topic.

That topic is Chris Butler and all matters directly related to him.

Those who wish to examine ISKON and the recondite* history of its origins
its doctrine, and other breakaway sects can go to the new discussion thread here.

A note to readers, both here and those who read and comment within
Hawaii's Civil Beat.

Quote

*recondite: rec·on·dite/?rek?n?d?t,ri?kän-/ adjective adjective: recondite
(of a subject or knowledge) little known; abstruse.
"the book is full of recondite information"

So, folks, how about some more detailed, recondite information concerning Chris Butler, Science of Identity and Butler's political and financial data?

Hawaii's voters will be interested in this and take it seriously.

This thread is already being taken seriously.

Let us keep that happening. By focusing on Chris Butler.

And by focusing on first person accounts by former disciples
who, with no choice of their own, were born into Butler's dictatorial
world.

Because minor children are still serving time in Butler World.

Children born citizens of the United States of America.

Focus on them.

Because persons born into Butler's world have exercised their First
Amendment rights by attempting to question Butler and his demands upon
their parents.

And, they have been rejected by their families and cut off -- harsh
punishment indeed for exercising First Amendment rights.

Shayam Dodge, born into Butler's world, reportedly received death threats
after he left and spoke up.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

When Shyam Dodge published his memoirs in 2009, “Wet Hot and Wild American Yogi” about his life growing up in Butler’s cult, he stated that some names were changed to protect the innocent. He obliquely describes life in the cult without "outing" Mr. Butler by using common euphemisms understood by the mainstream yoga community. He only refers to him as Sai, and shares little of the practices of the cult. He never mentions Katyayani by name and she is clearly described in the book. He speaks of “ashrams” instead of the reality of Butler’s decentralized system of house cells, compounds, and yoga centers. He speaks of being a Hindu monastic or monk instead of using the term brahmachary. He does not expose the cult head on. It is a cult of secrecy and masks. His book reflects a culture not accustomed to full disclosure.

Yet it is an authentic description and indictment of Butler’s cult. Those who were there know of whom and what he is talking about. He validates everything that has been reported on this forum. For example, he describes how over time Butler became more authoritarian, remote, and orthodox until he became flat out OCD crazy.

Even with all of his precautions he has been severely punished by the cult as a aparadha or blasphemer. He received death threats from Butler followers. He has blood relatives who will not speak to him. At one point, he was not allowed to be in the same room alone with his little sister after the book was written, because he was thought of as "crazy" and might rape her... The majority of the people with whom he grew up (friends and relatives) no longer speak with him. These were instructions coming from his guru and other "leaders". These leaders need to be exposed, even more so than the unfortunate followers.

Shyam Dodge is an outcast to most everyone he knew.... because he chose to write a book about his experiences. He was raised from a very young age to be a guru where people bowed down to him and thought him a saint… only to be thrown out like a piece of trash for telling the truth.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2015 10:12PM by corboy.

Pam Ho wrote
" What is it that you think is hidden about their agenda?"

Lots and lots of things Mrs Pam ...just reading about Rama life story or Eigenher life story...should be anoff.. I visited Bhakti the brother of Tulsi in jail a few years ago when he was incarcerated for multiple drug offenses in Las Vegas ...the poor guy was such a sad sad case of braiwashing that did not work ...for the whole family was practically force to worship Butler as the "PURE DEVOTEE" ...He was going crasy and he told me so ...Are you freaking kidding when you say "You just have to read Butler web site"
Will you read there that is early disciple Paramahansa was the biggest dope dealer in the world ....and maintain Rama parents as personal cook of Butler when he was living in Sedona .
Is it on the web site that he and now dead Gaursundar sold the Honolulu temple without the permission of Swami Bhaktivedanta and abandon the sacred tulsi plants and split(stole the money ) with Gaursundar. Is it on Butler web site that he and Mike Gabbard
took hundreds of thousands of dollars from right wing fanatics to organise anti homosexual propaganda...are all the stories on his web site of people being shaun in the cult
because they do not believe anymore that Butler is a Paramahansa ?
You say "I have no dog in this fight "...darling you got a big big dog in this fight he is call "IGNORANCE"....or maybee "BLIND AS A BAT "

I really don't understand the hostility. You say you don't mind mistakes being corrected, but it seems that isn't true. And I get bashed for it, what gives you the impression I don't know what Butler teaches? I don't get it.

Well, I do know what Butler teaches, I can recite it to you if you want. I have been around his group and his teachings since 1979 when I moved to Hawaii and went to a few of his gatherings, I was never a follower, but I have seen many of the videos when they used to air on public access here in Hawaii, I have read his lectures and his books years ago because they used to give them out freely on book stands in the front of all their stores. I know exactly what he teaches. Why would you think I don't? What have I said that is wrong in your estimation?

One of the things I have had to correct because it is a common mistake is the idea that Butler has invented something, he hasn't, what he teaches is the same as Bhaktivedanta Swami, chapter and verse. You think he was coarse, so was Bhaktivedanta, that is where Bulter got it from - and not just towards gays, Bhaktivedanta was coarse to heterosexuals as well, have you seen the comments he made, "Vagina licking civilization," and so on. Here let me educate you:

"No, we... "It is voluntary. In our society we find so many brahmacaris, [celibate students] so many grhasthas [regulated householders] And if you cannot stop this itching sensation, all right, marry one girl and live peacefully like a gentle... What is this nonsense, every three weeks divorce? We are not so rascal. If we accept one girl as my wife, I take full responsibility. Because I require a girl or woman, so this woman, that one... We are not so rascal that at home I have got woman, I am searching after another woman, another naked woman. We are not so madman. The sex pleasure is there at home, and I am seeking after sex pleasure in here, here, in the club, in the... What is that? Is that vagina is different? You are so fool. You require vagina; take one vagina. Be satisfied. And lick it. Why you are going here and there, here and there, here and there? Even old man is going to the nightclub to lick another vagina. Is that civilization? You are proud of your civilization." Tell them like that. "Licking of the vagina, different, obnoxious smell. You are less than the dog. The dog likes to smell the vagina. You are like that. What is business of going another vagina? You require vagina. Take one and be satisfied. That is intelligence. First of all there is no need of vagina. But if you want, take one and be satisfied. Why you are searching after dog vagina, this vagina, that vagina, that vagina? Is that civilization?" Expose them like that. "Your brain is filled with so much stool, so we are washing it. What is the wrong there?" You should take this argument and expose them at least in the court, licking of the vagina civilization, like dog. Yes animals do that. We must expose them, that's all. This is our business. This is a good opportunity in the court, so that it will be published. People will know what is our philosophy. Licking of vagina civilization, this. Publish."


And about Cara James, Rama, I didn't remember any other people then her, and I didn't even mention her name either since I didn't remember it, I just said a girl who was seeking revenge because she said her boyfriend was stolen from her, I remembered her saying so, and I remember her losing a court case when she was sued by them. What did I say that was wrong? Nothing I said is incorrect as far as I can see. If you believe otherwise please state exactly what you believe I have said is incorrect. Just saying I don't criticize Butler, well, I don't have to, you guys have said everything. I just try to stick to the facts you get wrong because you do get stuff wrong, I don't try and hide anything about his group, I am not a member. I don't deny the true things you guys get right, I only correct the things you get wrong. He did promote crap schools just like ISKCON; but that was because he was following their lead. He did promote separating from family members if they weren't part of the cult - again the same as ISKCON used to do (they don't anymore, they have changed a lot since the 1980s).

My points have been to show that the mistakes people have made about him is in thinking he is inventing stuff, when what he is doing what he learned from Bhaktivedanta from his time in ISKCON. As for Tulsi, I think her agenda is not hidden, nor is Butlers, whereas you guys seem to think it is, I simply disagree. That is all. I see them very open with what they believe and what they want. What is it that you think is hidden?

I would rather have new agey bhakti yoga types in political office, even though they may carry some baggage from a wacky guru in the past, then typical corporate machine boot lackeys who are your typical politicians. If that makes me bad, so bet it.

I penned a gangsta rap song about Chris Butler inspired by N.W.A. and an altered logo a friend sent me.

I will not sully this forum with the explicit lyrics or a particularly dangerous photoshop I just pulled off.

Check it out

STRAIGHT OUTTA THE CULT!

I had a bit of a back and forth with Pam on my facebook page that was a bit revealing.

I had messaged Pam tons, laying out my story, etc, initially before they showed up here. Pam could not once at any point acknowledge directly any of the abuses of Chris Butler, it took a while to see the pattern, but on my facebook post it came out.

I was showed one of the Chris Butler 1988 insane cult letters and Pam's response was

"I know he was or is bossy and demanding, so are lots of people when they get in positions of power. I mean have you ever read the riders from rock stars? Riders are what is given to event organizers when they do a show, it is a list of requirements, here is a small list (provided link to unrelated diversion article)"

I replied:
"Rama Ranson: Jesus Christ, Pam! You are unbelievable... How much are they paying you? Is it all for a Tulsi Gabbard autograph?

You are the white wash specialist!
You are the whitest of all white washers, you one Haole washa!"

"Chris Butler is a little beyond a crazy rock star.

Rock Stars don't mind control my mother to indoctrinate and brainwash me.
Rock Stars don't order all mothers to not give their asthmatic babies inhalers like my mother did to me

https://flashlightonroaches.wordpress.com/2015/07/06/voice-of-a-victim/

Now for fuck's sake, interact with and acknowledge the abuse within the Chris Butler cult instead of your insane diversion tactics."

Pam replied with:
"Rama, seriously WTF? Are YOU the cult leader demanding everyone do as you say, hate who you hate? Where is the whitewash of anything? You just want people to join your gangbang of victimization and hate - sorry if I won't join in, I have better things to think about then whining about some guru who wants only the brown m & m's, like grow up and move on, learn to laugh at it cuz"

I responded: (I tried to play nice, I gave it my absolute best, I swear.)
"---- off, was my article about M&M's? ---- head.
I'll have you know your line there about "are YOU the cult leader demanding everyone hate who you hate" is verbatim a talking point on behalf of the cult that surfaced in a letter sent to me a month or two ago by cult members George and Nanda Ormond in New Zealand. Of course you don't know them, and I don't think you are in the Butler cult, but you are receiving the same info stream to suggest that talking point.
Or just of the exact same mentality.
Do you see anybody not affiliated with Hare Krishna's ever reacting like you? Fuck no! You don't even understand what the definition of a cult and a cult leader is.
Speaking your mind and speaking harshly has nothing to do with it, you are such a ------ tool. Just like nandeez!"


Now it gets interesting, as Pam's line of
"Are YOU the cult leader demanding everyone do as you say, hate who you hate?"

It is a paraphrased repeating of a line Nanda Ormond wrote in his response e-mail, which was obviously heavily injected with cult talking points, cut and pasted bulletpoints chelated from my entire run here of all my juciest quotes. Not the product of some impromptu research by Nanda Ormond, rather a file forwarded to him compiled by Chris Butler's cult members who monitor this forum.

Hi, SOI spooks! Run tell dat!

Anyway, Nanda's line:
"Hey maybe we could Start our OWN cult! You sure seem to know lots about them, and you sound and act exactly like a deranged CULT fanatic who has to force his views on everyone, and if they don’t respond or agree then FUCK THEM. Are you not exhibiting everything you’re supposedly fighting against?"

https://ramaransonvsthecult.wordpress.com/2015/07/23/nanda-ormond-response-e-mail/

Pam's line:
"Are YOU the cult leader demanding everyone do as you say, hate who you hate?"

I am willing to accept this is coincidental, but bottom line is Pam Ho, in the face of my account of the child abuse I suffered by Chris Butler, Robyn Ranson and Jan Ormond, said "He's bossy, demands brown m + m's, get over it grow up"

That is so insane. Pam Ho I would suggest is a tireless public relations specialist for Tulsi Gabbard. Hired particularly because they are a seasoned (and completely desensitized) Hare Krishna, not affiliated with Chris Butler. I would suggest Pam has been charged with the task as painting Tulsi as being exactly the same as every other Hare Krishna who do not have to deal with the "cult" problem like Tulsi does.

The amount of words typed by Pam in comments on every single Tulsi article is enourmous. The amount of omitted truth about this cult on Pam's behalf is staggering, especially now.

Pam has not even said "Yes, Chris Butler is a deluded guru, seems pretty abusive like some of the worst ISKCON guys (who fell decades earlier) but Tulsi is her own person and cannot be judged by the actions of this man."

No, instead when faced with discussion of the abuse within the Chris Butler group, Pam says"Whatever, its not that bad, get over it..."
Pam does nothing but change the subject by throwing a reference to a peculiar behavior like "So what, he demands only brown m&ms" when I linked an article describing the sick and extremely abusive and traumatic treatment ordered on me while under Chris Butler's control as a 3 year old child.

Pam Ho, everyone! The lone voice of reason lulling you into Tulsi Gabbard's groovy trance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2015 08:40AM by Rama Das (slave name).

Pam Ho's response to the Chris Butler cult internal letter:

"I know he was or is bossy and demanding, so are lots of people when they get in positions of power. I mean have you ever read the riders from rock stars? Riders are what is given to event organizers when they do a show, it is a list of requirements, here is a small list"

And

"Rama, seriously WTF? Are YOU the cult leader demanding everyone do as you say, hate who you hate? Where is the whitewash of anything? You just want people to join your gangbang of victimization and hate - sorry if I won't join in, I have better things to think about then whining about some guru who wants only the brown m & m's, like grow up and move on, learn to laugh at it cuz"

Now compare this to this response to the same letter from my friend who knew my Mum and Dad for years and years on Maui, he worked for my Dad and lived at our house.
He addresses my mother Robyn Ranson in his response:

"Oh my god. Is this for real? How on God's name would you continue to 'follow' this guy when he spouts this drivel? He's telling them that he's sick as a direct result of his disciples lack of commitment to follow his rules? What the hell? What a crock of shit. Robin, snap out of it! This guy is a mediocre narcissist and manipulator, nothing more. He's very much a child and ridiculously selfish and arrogant. Why on earth did you ruin your family over this
lowlife? You've lost both of your sons because of this worthless jerk. Seriously, just snap out of it already. If you think that someone of elevated consciousness could speak in such a basal, selfish, and adolescent way, you truly are lost..."

" How sad. Fuckin shit Rama. That's so upsetting. It just goes to show, this is brainwashing 101. Now that they are past the initial indoctrination, he can now say anything. Here he attacks their self esteem and makes them responsible for all that's wrong in the world and they just accept it without question and do his bidding, sacrificing themselves in the process, and never once having a thought of their own. The psychology of all this is downright fascinating, but the reality of it is completely upsetting."

I responded to my friend: " Right on, ---------. Well said, man. It's SO interesting, which I hope at some point propels the story further, but sure does suck knowing the cool, nice people who totally bought all this.

It is insane, and it's part of the cognitive dissonance to accept his rampant hypochondria and paranoia (and complete laziness) as truthful, the sure signs of a fragile, sensitive pure devotee.
They actually believe this stuff is real, and proof he is "very very sensitive" like it's part of gods plan to make them have to serve him so cautiously.
Careful not to do this unrelated thing in your own life, it will cause pain to this holy man... Almost like a Jesus suffering your sins type of dynamic.
But unlike Jesus, Chris Butler can't stop bitching about it!
It should be the subject of a comedy series, I'm talkin arrested development type shit."

Pam Ho take some damn notes. Real people respond like my friend there.
You actually end up coming across only like my parents and other cult members do, I suggest you are so conditioned to accept the cult leader gurus in your 40 years a Hare krishna. you are a desensitized white washing apologist completely cold to the experience of abused individuals if that abuse originated within any off shoot of Gaudiya Vaishnavaism. A religion that is, as far as I can see, a system of cults well before Bhaktivedanta Swami. Every holy guru in disciplic succession promotes the fundamental cultic teaching that you must not only completely disassociate from anyone challenging your cult or questioning your cult leader, you are justified in attacking or even killing someone who causes offense to Krishna or whichever deranged cult leader assumes the role of the "Bonafide Guru".

Pam Ho parrots the line of "You are religious bigots" just like all other SOI cult members. Well so fuckin what. SOI are bigoted in the same way. All Chris Butler does is attack and deride every other religion and every other guru within his own religion. That is also religious bigotry.

Chris Butler does not let his Bigotry stop there. He is a homophobic bigot to levels unrivaled I would suggest. SOI are also philosophical bigots. Anybody sharing any philosophy are believed to be totally fake and bogus on the fact that they are not Chris Butler. My parents pulled me aside and had a stern talking to me when I invited my mother to a Wayne Dyer lecture on Maui.

Hare Krishna's who accept Bhaktivedanta's teachings are also racist bigots, looking down on darker races as fallen. Hare Krishna's are also sexist chauvinist bigots, too. Do not forget that, women have half the brain size and just LOOOOOOOVE them a little rape.

Pam Ho, this is america, learn the rules, dude.
You are free to be a "religious bigot" here and I choose to level my most honest criticism and anger at the hideous faux religion I was fanatically raised within.
If I was not abused by this group, I wouldn't give two shits about Krishna or the dullards that follow him. The problem is, Krishna demands a lot of abuse, and the abused kids of the Hare Krishna's have every right to speak their minds and expose the disgusting and negative shit within this stupid religion.

Freedom of speech. Trumps all your stupid assumed etiquette used to shield abusive mind control cults. We don't care to please your "religious bigotry" complaints.

Put it this way. If we rewind time to me first posting on this board, ignorant to the fact I would be excommunicated and had my parents and Chris Butler at the very least not cut off communication with me, this forum would not need to exist.

If they could have still talked to me, accepted me for who I am and not demand I remove all my words about them, I would have made a handful of posts about my weird upbringing and moved on with my life, with my family.

I bet the term "cult" would have never even been leveled at these guys by me. They boggled my mind in their actions after I posted here. They proved the point that they are insane cult members in the past 10 years, over and over and over again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2015 09:17AM by Rama Das (slave name).

I am also backing up the statements of eigenerherr and Rama Das (slave name)
I was born into this cult, I am second generation.
I watched as my parents minds got slowly taken from them by Chris Butler.
I am from 3 broken families because of all the internal arranged marriages within the cult.
As a child I were neglected, physically abused, spiritually blackmailed, not educated, made to work as a slave.
All this for "devotional service". I was made to think the only way to achieve happiness is to be serving and thinking about how to please the guru Chris Butler, 24/7.

I was taught not to love my family members because they were "demons" "karmis" "materialists" because they believed different.
I was taught to operate on a level of secrecy and to not divulge any information I had that could put any doubt about Chris Butler in anyone's mind.
do not question. follow. obey. serve. surrender.
I have bowed down and kissed the feet of Chris Butler.
I have tried to recruit many youths into the group, some successfully.

I was born and raised a slave.
I am free now. there are others like me, we are growing and we are angry.
SOI is on its swan song. they will die in my lifetime.
It is only a matter of time.


I have attended the indoctrination schools on two continents.
I too have lost my family for having voiced out how I felt about it when i grew older, cut out cold. as ice. nothing. just done. this is not a normal group.
It is as evil and manipulative as it can get.
people within the group have killed themselves.
People within this group have surrendered their identities to be given another one by the leader, also a form of spiritual suicide.
this is all classic cult member mind control

sPam Ho(e) take your BS somewhere else because you are either a spinner for Tulsi Gabbard or a Chris Butler lover on the payroll, doing it as devotional service.

Evidence or gtfo.
we are not having your BS pollute this forum.
this isnt Scandal and you are not Olivia Pope.