A lot of discussion is taking place on the Chris Butler thread concerning ISKON* and sects not related to Chris Butler which have broken away from ISKON.

*International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

If anyone has information to contribute about those sects, here is where to post that material.

Here's to help dispel the Krishna myth off your life. The mythology has been used as an effective ideological, sociological and psychological tool to subjugate the mind, the heart and politics of individuals and society for more than 3,000 years -- making it the longest living societal cancer in human history. Radhika is a darling sister in the struggle, Breaking Free is from ex ISKCON members, Dharma Kamata refutes interpolated versions of the Bhagavad Gita and AUM BEEP BEEP is about the ugly truth about Brahmanism and the evil of caste system.


Radhika Bianchi
[www.google.ca]

Breaking-free
[breaking-free.info]

Dharma kamata
[dharmakamata.blogspot.ca]

Aum Beep Beep
[www.aumbeepbeep.com]

Since all non-Hindus by birth are outcastes, therefore all the non-Indian Hare Krishnas are outcastes. The caste system is rejected by the Hare Krishna and by many Hindu traditions, it was one of the salient points made by the creator of the Hare Krishna religion, Chaitanya, 500 years ago - he was very anti-caste and was attacked for it, and that is his very well known legacy. If you want to criticize Hindu culture, fine, but pick your battles, Hare Krishnas are anti-caste and well known for it, just look up caste and Chaitanta, or Hare Krishna and caste, or go here https://goo.gl/TCVOjk

I have written a book on Hare Krishna, and the first chapter mentions Tulsi, if you want to know where I coming from this is a good place to start: http://monsterhotelkrishnaconsciousness.blogspot.com/

Pam Ho Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The caste system is rejected by the
> Hare Krishna and by many Hindu traditions, it was
> one of the salient points made by the creator of
> the Hare Krishna religion, Chaitanya, 500 years
> ago

It’s an ideological PR. I’ll be the first to laud ISKCON and the Vaishnava religion if they could put it into practice. First off, the Karma concept is one of their foundational truths to which caste system is rooted in. Every time external forces threaten to expose the religious elite’s foundational truth, of course, they adjust; but the core aim stays the same — to sustain domination over the masses. In the case of ISKCON, their clueless neophyte devotees. The caste system is untenable and a bankrupted doctrine anyway, abandoning it is conducive; otherwise, all the Sudras would have converted to the growing Muslims and Christian competitions. 3,000 years ago, 500 years ago or 68 years ago, ever since banned during India’s independence, it is still practiced, and no sign of it ever going away. Just as the Bhagavadgita’s late insertion into Mahabaratha, to salvage Hinduism from Buddhism which exposed their barbarism and sadistic theology. Religious cult has no place in modern society, period.

I don't agree with the assertion that the gaudiya movement is free from cast consideration at all.

Moreover, I'm happy to share light and showcase how this is practically and realistically not the case in at least half a dozen or more groups that I have been part of an associated with.

This is not even including all of the other behavior controlling tactics that are used by the Cults. Starting from the simple fact that all contemporary gaudiya cults aside from Butler's, focus on and promote the use of the Brahmin thread as a method of elevating its members.

Another Deluded Hare Krishna Yahoo ~ Santos Bonacci

Got a big plug on Sean Stone's YouTube show "Enter The Buzz Saw" (son of Oliver Stone).


"None of these American or Australian accents are going to heaven." at 25:26.

At 38:30 he claims the most demoniac influences in the world are meat eating, gravity, and the globe. Gravity is not a true law. Can't get into heaven if you eat meat. The earth is flat.

[sound of a coo-coo clock here]

Yahoo That Thinks He is Above the Law

If gravity does not exist, how will Bonacci explain why, when we defecate, the turds
fall down, rather than float or drift horizontally?

Or does Krishna's divine leela extend to guiding the trajectory of each devotee's turds?

Cracking Up here corboy!

I don't buy the assertion that chaitanya or any modern day krishna cult does not recognize the varna and ashram system as a ideological system. I was in this cult for many years with many gurus. There are hundreds of quotes from swami bhaktivedanta and beyond about the caste system and it's so called benefits etc. Siddhanta saraswati put much emphasis on the brahmans thread as well as positions like Sanyasi and so forth. Dramatic emphasis is put on dress and position in most gaudiya traditions. The butler cult perhaps broke away from this style-oriented preaching, but most, if not all off-shoot maths and missions in the gaudiya line emphasize this heavily.

The biggest issue is not that people believe in this nonsense or that. The issue with most of these groups, specifically in terms of gaudiyas is that their history is very cloudy and undefined. It's an utter mishmash. Emphasis is on modern day acharyas and on so-called chaitanya and the mythological radha krishna. Meanwhile, other deities are worshipped as well: Narasimha (dasavatar), shiva, ganesh, and various demigods, saints and rishis. There is very little in the way of logic that dictates or spells out what is proper or correct in these traditions. A unanimous teaching is simply to follow a "bonafide" guru and chant the so-called holy name(s). The mantras and verses associated with any evidence for any of this are few and far between and the sources questionable and confusing at best.

While traditional gaudiya vaishnavas huddled in forests and around mayapur, puri and vrndavana and had few if any disciples—focusing mainly on their simple practice and belief system, there is much emphasis in modern day movements on worldwide preaching and initiations of thousands of "disciples". Many of which spend no more than a few hours a year with their guru/teacher and basically spend the rest of their "krishna conscious" time "praying" to little pictures/deities on their altars or banging through their "rounds". Even the so-called lineage is questionable and no clear answer exists about who is who and what their contributions were. No one has any clear picture of anything. Once you get to Gaurakishor baba it's pretty much a crapshoot as far as who was who and what is what. There is no logical explanation for basic practices like keeping a sikha, dressing in dhotis/saris, wearing neck beads etc... Other than affiliation to a group—all very worldy and materialistic concerns. Just because you say it's for "god" does not make it any more "special"—it's still someone giving a shit about how they look for the sake of belonging to a "group" and identifying with their body all the same. People have been doing that for millions of years. Tell me something good...

Controversy also abounds in the cult(s). Not only in the time of Bhaktivinode, but going way back there is so many contradicting stories and events that don't add up to a clear picture of the tradition. What to speak of modern day groups/offshoots that are riddled with controversies, internal strife and replete with oddities of the highest order. It's like the catholic church times 10. Major arguments abound about silly things like the origin of the soul (you would think that one would be spelled out early on—seems important enough), what style tilak, sikha, color saffron, guru's preaching styles, sanyassi businessmen, multimillion $$$ temples, properties, document fraud, pedophilia, questionable relations with trusting disciples, the list goes on and on... but as long as you chant—well, it's all good. 16 rounds baby. Ok, maybe 4... as long as you are serving the vaishnavas! And what does that typically consist of? Giving money, cooking food, feeding the devotees, bowing down, cleaning after them, giving them gifts etc. Not giving poor people food, or donating to some social need, building businesses that can maintain the temple for years (rather than having devotees slave at airports and collect money by lying to people that they are engaged in some social welfare). Most of the money is to maintain expensive temples, build more temples and have the guru travel, buy surfboards, boats, cars, more properties etc. I recently had a fellow approach me for doing some design work for a multimillion dollar temple. Millions of dollars are spent on building a structure to house some small group of devotees or in most cases, a statue. A statue that they claim is god. I'm sorry, is god not in your heart and in the holy name? Isn't that what you preach? Yet, millions of $$$ are spent erecting fancy temples to impress outsiders and get more $$$. Many devotees travel to India at least once a year. This is expensive. Why don't they just move there? Because they like their material life and comfort in the west. Even in ISKCON they have built apartments in Vrndavana to sell to old devotees so they can live in nice air-condition rooms and enjoy their western accommodations. Just like the saints of yore!

There is little to no outside records or documentation of chaitanyas life aside from the very fancifully written accounts of the chatanya charitamrita and chaitanya bhagavat/mangal (even Leonardo Da Vinci has more evidence-based documentation of his life and habits). No other works or historical records really point to the existence of such a personality who "made the earth tremble in ecstasy" and so forth. Sure, there are temples that claim to have been visited by chaitanya or have in their possession the lota and slippers he wore, but India abounds in these types of cheap-frills exhibitions. Every other temple in mayapur, puri and vrndavan claim to have some "special" artifact or story associated with it. The evidence for such things is sorely lacking or non existent of fabricated so that the temple priests can get their lak$hmi. I still have not visited one of these places where it didn't feel just slightly off, crooked and shady. They don't even have a clear unified story how chaitanya died? Certainly if the Kaviraj who wrote caritamrita knew the various details of the reformists antics and habits, he would have recorded accurately the cause of death. Gee, even krishna is described as having died from an arrow shot to the foot. Jesus even has a clear death described. It's all hodgepodge.

Overarching evidence is there of the founder of the modern hare krishna movements (Swami Bhaktivedanta) various horrendous statements about women, homosexuals, africans, slavery, dictatorship, war, randomly the moon landing, and so forth. Not to mention countless lectures where varna and ashram are stated as ideal systems of governance that society would do well returning to. Even in their own initiation process the thread and brahminical gayatri is dispensed as a method of becoming "second born" and moving up through the temple ranks. It's a very visible hierarchy. You have your bhakta's, your first initiates, second initiates, sanyasis and babajis and so forth. It's by no means a "we're all equal" approach to life (shoot, i've seen more serious bhaktas than so-called brahmins).

Sure, you're costumery "Namaste" is offered to the bhaktas, but the full dandavat pranams are offered to the "prabhus" and the "maharajas". Most likely because they have been around longer but also because of external status symbols: Brahmin thread, saffron cloth etc. Or is it that they have chanted more rounds (have you ever heard papa chanting tapes of prabhupada? You can't even hear what he's saying. many devotees also just wander about chanting and all you really hear is slur of indistinguishable babble as they band through their ordained rounds)? Or that they distributed more books? Or is it that they have converted more followers or are "experts" in the verses of the gita? Who knows. I mean, it's not so much about that as it is about the garb they wear and what everyone else is doing around you (aka—bowing down).

I guess the fundamental flaw, for me, lays in the lies. Gaudiyas may say that they reject caste systems or that their saints/avatars where somehow "reformers", but yet the stories in the bhagavatam and other vedic works that they believe in, contain very blunt references to these practices. Not to mention animal sacrifices, human sacrifices, belief in silly pagan deities like surya, indra and vayu and outlandish stories of monkey armies, getting loaded on Soma juice, sati-rights, holy wars, marriage of thousands of queens, slaying of gigantic demons and stairways to heaven... My point is, where is the evidence? How can one just outright, without any sense of foolishness and doubt, believe in this stuff and consider themselves sane?

I understand it feels good to tout a philosophy of "servitude", "devotion", "surrender", "dedication" etc. Sure, it sounds noble. But service, surrender, dedication, and love of what? A glorified santa clause tale?

If hinduism is shrouded in so much "mystery" and is "the oldest religion", then certainly it behoves us to study and analyze and try to understand it's origins.

From a barbaric, simple nomadic peoples with beliefs in nature gods, to the development of village deities like krishna during the dawn of agriculture, and through to the systematic development of a complex pantheon (influenced heavily by existing greek, egytian and Aryan gods of the time), and eventual philosophical and ritual-based systems developed to segregate and give clear hierarchy to the social structure. You can trace much of so-called vedic civilization through the recorded histories of the rest of the work during that time period. You can say that the vedic scripture down to the contemporary writings of the gaudiya masters are "revealed" and beyond "senses perception" and "mental interpretations". Here is a fact: Anyone who has a body in this world, is flawed by the limitations of that vehicle (even the gods, great devotees, and god himself show in their tales the flaw of their human encumburment). Think about that for a minute... Ok, minutes up! Think of rama. Even he, who was apparently god—the infallible vishnu incarnate, had to enlist the monkey warriors and hanuman to "help" him... Oh, but he did that because it's his pastime! He did that to engage his devotees in service (which is all they want to do cause they love him ever so much!)... Ok, well, I have to say, that for as huge as the universe is, god sure is human like in his focus on us, his focus on evil, his focus on caring etc... At the same time, he does not seem to give two shits about the catastrophic trauma and drama that is unfolding in the universe and here on little ol' earth... Sure, he apparently killed some kamasa and ravana and hiranyakashipu, but somehow failed to care much about Donald Trump or George Bush or Hitler... Why? Well, cause it's just not time folks... We need to wait some several thousands of years so he can come as "Kalki"! Why? Well, cause it says in the "big book"... What book is that? Is it in one of the 4 major vedas of India? No, no, no.... It's in the puranas... The stories...Ok...Thx god... We'll be here... Suffering and waiting... Have fun in krishna loka with all them gopis! Certainly there is WAY more devotees on earth now, than ever in history. There is way more ardent believers. All of them praying for the "lords mercy", yet, somehow that's not enough to waken the great narayan from his cosmic slumber. And why does he need to sleep so much anyway? Heavy night of drinking soma?

It's not that the the vedas, and pedants and the puranic stories are somehow meaningless or lack value. It's just that they meant more to the indigenous people that developed these beliefs, rather than modern day people. We may culturally lack a connection with nature and tradition and ritual, but certainly adopting the archaic culture of a bygone era is not the answer. We may benefit from taking some examples here and there: Using yoga for stretching, pranayama breath techniques to gain mindful awareness of our bodies, eat a high-veg diet, respect and honor nature and all living things, live a life of gratitude and appreciation and perhaps even study the wisdom and observations of the thinkers and artists of the past. But to wholesale accept everything and fall line-hook-sinker for every ounce of it. I don't know what to say. Good luck? Have fun? Be safe? I feel for you? I dunno. I'm wary of that approach to life. Certainly the great sages and thinkers of the past did not stop at one given point and say "this is it boys! We've reached the end of all there is to know!" No, they explored further, tried to understand it from different angles, disagreed, revised, and eventually agreed on one infinitely correct answer: There ain't one. That's why the hindu faith appeals to so many and just about anyone, from the sex-starved tantra hippie to the ganja smoking shivite can find something there. But the gaudiyas try to paint a view that it is all nonsense and they have the key. This is the general mood of the devotees. At least Shnakara recognized that all these different offshoots where viable and recognizable as people worshipping the same basic thing: The unknown, the source, the all encompassing. Giving it form was not only illogical, but offensive, as it negated the fact that a god cold revel themselves differently to different souls. That is at least a more organic teaching and peaceful. And it makes sense as Shankar was trying to synthesize bhuddist thought into the brahmical context. What better way to do that then to say, "hey guys, it's more about being cool and chill and not fighting. Try not to be attached to stuff to much. Be a nice person. Worship who you like. Don't attack others for believing in their thing. Focus on your thing".

Now, don't get me wrong. My favorite thing EVER, was to cook and wash dishes and perform complex puja ceremonies on the altar. I knew all the mudras and was very diligent in my 3xs/day gayatri and so forth. I memorized all the needed verses and relished the writings of bhaktivinode thakur. I was a big fan of Jiva Dharma and had my godbrothers shave my head just right. I cried every vyasa puja. My sentiments were replete with "your divine cooling rays and the shelter of your gentle lotus feet". I walked barefoot around govardhana hill and bathed at 4am in the cool kaveri/jamumana/ganjes. I spent my brahmacari years pouring cold buckets of water on my sleep little head and rushed to the temple to squeeze in my 16 rounds a day... So what went wrong? Well, for starters, it never felt real. I felt like I was trying to impose an alien culture on my mind. Many devotees would say that this is the "purification" process. But after 15 years I suddenly startled myself. I jolted to a stop and asked a simple question: What is all this? Why can't I wrap my head around it after 15 years? Why does it feel so awkward and artificial and fake? It's only fun when we're all doing it (me and my struggling vaishnava comrads). I wasn't some video game playing, second gen krishna kid. This was it for me. It was this or hell. Either a hell in this lifetime of not being in the service of the "pure vaishnavas" or a hell in Yamaraja's care... Well guess what? I'm here today to tell you it's all bullshit folks. I'm happy. Sure, I have my days and things can get rough at times. But at least it's my day to day true to life learning process. I'm forming my own ideas and trusting in concepts that are not being spoon-fed to me. I'm, ahem, using the brain between my ears. It's actually fun. It feels, shall I say, pleasant, nay, ecstatic! There is real-life, factual and evidence based things I do that are good for me and feel "right". My relation with my family is based on reality. I can speak to them about love, death, growth, happiness, anxiety, anger, etc—all form a place of genuine personal experience or progressive realization. I don't need to rely on some guru or verse to solidify my stance in life. Sometimes I can just say, " I honestly don't know", or my favorite, "I don't give a flying rats ass!". The point is, empirical evidence, or transcendental revelation—none of this is really applicable. Not because it does not make sense, but because things should be done according to ones level of experience and from a place of genuine authenticity. Honestly, what use is something is it's just going to confuse you and leave you empty handed. It's got to be in accordance with something that sinks in. Getting a bunch of drugged up hippies to believe what you are saying is not successful conversion. It's praying on the innocent.

To this day, the hare krishna are not taken seriously and pretty much struggle at every step to present their religion in a cohesive, rational and tangible way. Their repeated and futile attempts at somehow positioning "krishna consciousness" as being a historically viable religion is shrouded in desperation as they make quasi-associations to the ancient vedas that are littered with caste ideologies, fanciful worship and sacrifices of horses and humans alike along with flawed tales of the origin of species, the cosmos and so forth. They attempt to highlight science as flawed, when in fact their complete lack of viable science is what needs questioning. It's actually laughable that a group of people who cannot logically explain what shaving a head and wearing neck beads has to do with any meaningful social change and so-called spirituality should even have an opinion on the topic of science.

The classic argument of "the vedas are revealed and beyond the influence of man/sense perception" is flawed in an of itself considering we don't have much more to go on except our eyes, brains and mind to interpret them. These are the very same tools the "guru" and "saints" and compilers of the vedas had to rely on: Imperfect senses. Often blunted even further by the intoxicating "soma juice" that no doubt helped in pushing the auto-trip they were on.

It's really pointless in discussing any of this with your garden variety krishna devotee or any religion-minded person. You will be labeled a "karma", "Aparadhi", offender, lacking sukriti, lacking faith and so forth. Basically any questioning of the practices and beliefs and stories of the hare krishna is met with immediate opposition and distaste. Yet not many if any hare krishna have ever read the pagan and very tribal rig veda and other subsequent vedic works. They have barely scratched the surface of their very new version of the bhakti movement. Their reading of the purnanas and suplimentery vedic works is clouded by their gurus purports and blind loyalty. Rarely is one encouraged to question, dissect and truly study the scriptures through and through. Most of the focus is on the modern day version of the teachings with the occasional mention of the past scriptures as support for the legitimacy of the historical place of the bhakti movement. But of course this is rarely done with any convincing language other than: Chant and be happy.

We say that caste does not play a role in so-called gaudiya vashnavism yet chaitanya himself was born to a family of brahmins and accepted sanyas as a social platform for his preaching. The shikshastika verses are a cry and plea for the "lower casts". Verses like "I am not a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra. I am not a brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha or sannyasi. What am I? I am the eternal servant of the servant of the servant of Lord Krona" were a way to create social unity but it barely put a dent in the caste system that even has a hold on many indian villages to this day. So while it may have been a noble effort, the fact that it's associated with the vedas and has it's organ and history in the worship of krishna, a vedic god that spoke and ordained vranashram, according to the vedic scriptures and throughout the purnaic texts, is well, confusing and rot with double-standards.

Verses like "O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed." [Sukadeva Goswami] SB 1.1.10 give the impression that there was a time when people where somehow less so. I cannot think of a medieval story in any culture that did not revolve around warfare, destruction, pillaging, rape, sacrifices, suffering and downright bad decisions based on "gods law"—going back thousands of years. Tribes of primitive people with zero education and any true sense of human rights had a hold on many parts of the globe and india was absolutely no exception. The Indo Aryan peoples were a barbaric group that ruled by force and eventually settled down and rewrote their history in a "noble light", as most cultures try to do.

Anyway, I find it very frustrating to talk with most 2nd and 3rd gen cult kids about this stuff. They literally lack the capacity to try to see and understand that their religion and gods are mythical, like Zeus and all the rest. They fail to see the fanciful nature of the stories of their scriptures and literally believe that by chanting and hanging out at rathe yatra festivals they will somehow end of on some "transcendental planet" and play happily with krishna forever. They have fully convinced themselves and had their ability to question and find answers for themselves blunted. They consider their scriptures and the words of their very obviously flawed gurus to be "absolute truth". It blows my mind.

Most cult kids, especially in butlers cult, have never even been to india or the "holy places" of their chosen path. To them it's truly this fantastical, magical land where cows are giving rivers of milk and the dust is singing the glories of god... Many krishna cults in the west set up shop in places like hawaii and mexico and warm climates where people live simple lives and are receptive to the yoga and chanting and free food culture that the cults promote. Preaching going on in places like Russia and China are ripe for the taking. People have been prosecuted for so long for their beliefs that anything that promises a better, less oppressed life is viewed as heaven-sent. As soon as laws free up religion in these countries there is a line of gurus ready to take the masses for a transcendental ride.

When I was a child and my mother, who grew up in communist poland and was going through a rough patch where-in she was suffering and becoming disillusioned with life in the west, was approached by a butler disciple, one vishnu das. Meditation, vegetarianism, the promise of peace of mind by chanting mantras and serving a guru who was god on earth was a pleasant sounding prospect. Escapism at its finest no doubt. We quickly started reading gita, set up our little altar with deities and chanted to our hearts content. Then, as years passed we eventually left butler for a more traditional krishna guru in hawaii. We became disciples and dressed in dhotis/saris, wore a sikhs, got the thread and I became a pujari at the temple. Overtime, we made acquaintances with other gurus and groups. As time went on, it became apparent that these gurus did not like us "jumping around" from guru to guru. Words were spoken, fights were fought. Eventually my mother settled on one govinda maharaja, disciple of sridhara maharaja. This was an indian guru. The flavor of the "yoga, mantra meditation, guitar playing" cult we knew gave way to a more "authentic" expression of gaudiya vaishnavism.

Over time I saw that there was a lot of "guru appointment" issues that arose. Acharyas were now made by appointment. I was always told this was not something that can or should be done. Yet here we were, accepting this new method of guru-making. Various claims to authenticity were always highlighted. Many followers felt very firmly that their guru was the "one" true heir to the gaudiya line. Others were shown to be faulty or flawed or in someway lesser. Yet one thing remained true—wherever you went, everyone claimed to have the right guru and belong to the right clan. When issues arose disciples simply jumped to the next best one. When the guru's passed away, they appointed in some cases several gurus in their place. The gurus then fought amongst themselves or vied for a top post. This is going on all over the place. And many of these gurus will adopt some stylistic nuances: Larger sikhas, different neck beads, emphasis on service rather than rounds you chant, preaching radha bhav, gaura bhav, anti-sahajiya, etc. They all have their style and claim to fame. Some of these gurus even write their own gita commentaries and other books that promote their flavor of gaudiya ideas. They all claim that they understood it best and in the truest light. what they fail to see is that you can frame bullshit in any light you like but in the end it's still very much bullshit.

So, to recap—no, the so called chaitanya cult down to prabhupada and so forth all peddled variation of the caste tale. When convenient they adjusted their whistle, but at this point it's in black and white in the many purports, lectures and commentaries they have left behind. No going back as they say. And the bottom line is that it's not even about the caste stuff. It's the whole package: The rascal god krishna who does not follow any of the rules, the excessive sex and scientifically fallacious ideas presented in the vedic, puranic and vedantic texts, the fantastical tales that have no correlation to historical events and the contradiction after contradiction, excuses, different versions of every story from one scripture to the next, silly guru fights, disciple fanaticism and crazy rituals, habits and practices. Hogwash of the highest order and some. You can tell someone their going to go to hell and suffer lifetime after lifetime (usually starting when they are just little children) and they will believe anything. You tell someone you know what happens after they die and everyones ears perk up. It's what religion is made of. Fear masquerading as love. People are afraid of going to hell and of what comes after they die and once you have them well situated in that zone they will believe ANYTHING you feed them.

The closest thing to a true path and viable so-called spiritual tradition is perhaps buddhism and even that has sadly suffered from a heavy dose of BS. Society would do best by unlearning it's religious past, giving it up and building out a new way of understanding the evolving world around us. It's one thing to take cues from old traditions and weave an approach to life that is respectful of your fellow human and the earth, it's something very tragic to take wholesale some archaic and convoluted idealism and pretend that it can solve all of societies troubles while basically peddling the very thing that has been wrong with religion from time immemorial—a system of fear masquerading as some deeper truth or devotion.