Hello Glenn, If I was in Melbourne I would love to have a meal with you as we chatted about my history with the JC's. It would be my shout :) But maybe discussion on this thread will have to suffice.

I understand that you may veiw this thread and some postings on it as being unfair. You pointed out that a couple of issues you had with the Church of Scientology was that you got told off for falling a sleep in a study period, or that you couldn't ring your dad without a member being present. Similar things took place within the JC's with ex members and would continue today with members. What positive things do you have to say about the Church of Scientology? You ask us to be fair in our assessment of the JC's after all.

Do the negatives of the Church of Scientology outweigh any positives you may have experienced? I think they must, otherwise you would most likely still be with them. Can you not see that your experience with them is similar to what ex JC's experienced with the JC's? Where is your empathy in this matter?

It is your right to feel as though we have not moved on. From what I understand it is the JC's/Dave who has not moved on. He continually fills his followers minds with tales of how badly he was treated by ex members. As recently as last month Ross was berating Indian female ex members by using some publicly made slanderous charge of them being greedy for Western materialism by which they seduced their Western husbands away from JC truth! From my way of thinking such statements border on racism, as well as being outright untruths.

Ex members are simply responding to the attacks launched upon us by Dave and his crew.

No-one here has said Reinhardt deserved the beating he received. Of course he did not. The division of opinion between ex members and the JC's has simply become more public since Dave ordered the whipping of a volunteer in Africa for a sin committed against the JC's, and since his forum was made available to comment from ex members.

I have been banned from the JC forum because I stood my ground over it being incorrect of Dave to assert a situation where he as a follower of Jesus could KILL someone. I find it funny that he now has the audacity to have a thread related to JC's and Non violence when I know how long such an ideal would last... hence my complaint that they actually teach followers to IGNORE the teachings of Jesus regarding loving their enemies, turning the other cheek, or forgiveness.

Regarding what I do now. I do the same as you. I work with people helping to make their lives more meaningful. This I do 5 days a week.

I am now able to see more clearly how while in the JC's I had become a hard nut ignoring the suffering of others, as my JC understanding of love involved people complying with the doctrines I was promoting. As I mentioned in my slant of your dream... I had grown cold over time by allowing myself to believe the lie of "end justifies the means", "honest to whom" ideaologies.

So that is a little about me. What questions do you have Glenn?

I will ask you a question, if you do not mind. Why have you not joined the JC's?

KingTut wrote

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I must say also very patient as im not the easiest person to get a;long with, due to me have very strong opinions and beliefs, and they have been nicer than some of the people in here, who have falsly labelled me a JC when i am not.

I may have missed something, but when were you falsely labelled a JC?

I know that I suspected you were one because of your need to curb and question the motivations of those who post here. I know this thread is HUGE, but, to be fair, don't label the dialogue here as hateful and bitter unless you're able and willing to read everything written.

When it all boils down, we're a bunch of individuals. Can't say the same about the JCs ... but that's just my strong opinion based on personal experience and research.

I think Apostate's query is a good one: what did you find positive about Scientology? I have strong opinions about CO$, too.

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jason25
yes he is a jc, he's not king tut, he's king david.
he maybe banned from posting as dave mckay but he he can join up under any other name

We all make mistakes.

Consult your friend on all things, especially on those which respect yourself. His counsel may then be useful where your own self-love might impair your judgment.
Seneca
Roman dramatist, philosopher, & politician (5 BC - 65 AD) [/size:7b392d751c]

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Jack Oskar Larm

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jason25
yes he is a jc, he's not king tut, he's king david.
he maybe banned from posting as dave mckay but he he can join up under any other name

We all make mistakes.

That is correct we ALL make mistakes.

Dave has continually attacked Tony Barry thinking he is me; when poor old Tony has never even posted on either site, or even visited them. When his own son told him I was not Tony, Dave continued asserting I was... in the face of all evidence to the contrary because he thinks he will lose face by acknowledging his "gift of discernment" was wrong.

I am still keen to speak with you Glenn. You never know, we may be a kindred spirit. :)

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KingTut
Funny how it's ok for some people as Dogmother says to be able to say what they want, when they want. And the only thing that bubbles out of their mouths are hate and vile sewerage.

I wonder what does it take to join this bitter for life garden party?

Staying in the same rut does nothing but fuels bitterness which in the end will make you sick inside because you cant move on with your lives. Than again im guessing you dont want to move on with your lives, you scream victims and thats the label you want to be for the rest of your lives.

You are all aware the more you stay in this circle of bitterness over DM or whoever else upset you, the other party will always win. It is rather sad that none of you have the idea what the words "move on" mean as you rather just stick to what you know and that is hate.

Sorry for the mistake Glenn, I have been reading your replies on the jc forum and you sound like a very reasonable person. Nothing like the king tut post quoted above, and since i'm familiar with the different faces of Dave and his rantings I came to the wrong conclusion.
Sorry again
Jason

People who ask our advice almost never take it. Yet we should never refuse to give it, upon request, for it often helps us to see our own way more clearly.
Brendan Francis
Irish poet, author, playwright[/size:ea41d340fd]

I'll try and answer all your questions in one reply.

Apostate: They are very work orientated. They are very concerned if you hurt yourself and you will have many run to offer to help you with touch healing.
I just want ot say also you dont see me on an ex-scientologist site, being bitter towards them. I see it as it wasnt for me and i've moved on, i've spoken to a few current scientolgists but its best not to as it will cause more trouble for them, as they are not to associtated with people who "blow" (a term used for those who go AWOL)

And sorry i have seen a few posts where some of you guys were wanting to be character witness or whatever you call it for the family who violently beat Reinahd, im sorry in my eyes this is someone you knew when you were a member and to see that he deserved it, is quite tacky. I have noticed that you do seem to be more level headed than a few of the others.
I have also spoken to Dave about loving your enemies and those stuff that you mentioned and it was quite the opposite of what you said.

And why havent i become a JC yet? I dont jump into things that's what got me into the position years ago with Scientology. I am taking my time reading the articles and getting to know the members before i make such a change in my life. And unlike Scinetology Dave is not pushy about it, he is very open to answering my questions and discussing from the bible.


Jason: It's fine we all make mistakes, its just that you made a post without even asking who i was, just assuming, but like i said thats fine.

Jack: Pretty much what I said to Apostate can be directed at you also, it saves me having to type it all out again.

The word "bitter" has been bandied around ad nauseum, almost as if us ex JC's were labelled "communist" in the McCarthy era. We are "bitter", but JC's are "concerned". It's convenient "ingroup-outgroup" labelling to deflect valid criticisms. It comes from a theology that says "once you have tasted the waters of salvation and turn away, you become a bitter and twisted person who has rejected God." They believe their group is the only salvation (in practical terms) so if you leave the group you must be bitter. Their "truth" is defined by Dave despite evidence to the contrary.

I know many ex members. We are all very grateful to be out of the deep and oppresive control of Dave. We are all happier and more cheerful. I cannot recall any ex member who is not happier after leaving the group than what they were in it.

In the end it is not usually about differences in beliefs that divide ex members from the JC's. It is about getting free from domination, getting free from dishonesty, getting free from being forced to be cruel to others in the name of Jesus. It is about becoming free to love other people freely, unconditionally, becoming free to accept others as they are, becoming free to follow one's conscience.

There are ex members who live more simply than the JC's and truly rely on God's provision.

There are ex members who work harder than the JC's.

Every ex member spends more time with their family.

The point is, now we can freely choose.