Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Josh
()
Date: February 08, 2007 11:57PM
Hi Malcom and apostate. Thanks for the responses. I'll try to talk to you both in one post and try to keep it from getting too mixed up.
So do you think most of your differences are based on how you interpret scripture? Ie a policy would get set which you found to not be biblically compatible but others though was biblically compatible so they were ok with complying while you felt you could not?
Were you guys who are ex-members more exposed to what you call procedural abuses than the people who remain members or do you think the remaining members are just more tolerant of it?
So you don't think the Jesus Christians are really Christians at all? (Malcom I think I can tell from your post that you still consider yourself a Christian. Do you still consider yourself a Christian Apostate? I know there's been some todo about who Apostate really is. If you don't want to give away your identity and you think this question will don't bother answering it. I'd just like to know where you're coming from.)
How do you guys define Christianity, and what does a group have to do to qualify as being Christian?
If it's not too much of a departure from the subject of this thread. How did you come to that understanding? I admit I like the sound of your kingdom of heaven better, but all I've found in scripture describing the government would be "the Messiah ruling with an iron scepter". I can't be sure exactly what is meant by "ruling with an iron scepter", but it's never sounded very egalitarian to me.
I have learned to be slow to judgement, especially about people who I only know via an internet forum. The way you type doesn't sound stupid to me, and as far as I can tell you seem to at least believe what you are saying is true as do the Jesus Christians believe what they're saying is true. I am not judge between you and them and don't care to be involved in the fight you guys have going on since having absolutely no knowlege of the situations being fought over I am in no position to add anything to either side of the argument.
The reason for my questions (I probably owe you guys that much) is because it seems strange to me how you guys and the Jesus Christians could come to such a radically different understanding of how their group operates. From what I can tell the members of the Jesus Christians seem quite happy where they're at and quite excited about the work they're doing. I have met a few of them in person and they didn't seem crazy or brainwashed or anything. They weren't at all pushy with their beliefs which surprised me since I think my own mainline Christian denomination is more pushy to have people join than they were. I want to understand why the Jesus Christians seem to work well for some people but not for others. I'm already speaking to the people that the Jesus Christians are working well for, so I decided to hear from the others.
Quote
Malcom
I'd say the key difference is that they are prepared to accept directives from David McKay (in policy and direct instruction) which they consider to be bliblically compatible...and which I would not.
So do you think most of your differences are based on how you interpret scripture? Ie a policy would get set which you found to not be biblically compatible but others though was biblically compatible so they were ok with complying while you felt you could not?
Quote
Malcom
and which has led to a number of "procedural abuses" within the JesusChristians. (Such as some members of this site being "illegallly (by their own standards) being dismissed from the group)
Were you guys who are ex-members more exposed to what you call procedural abuses than the people who remain members or do you think the remaining members are just more tolerant of it?
Quote
Malcom
If the JesusChristians did not call themselves "Christians" or no longer actively sought membership I would probably not trouble to post as they are certainly entitled to do to themsleves whatever they see fit.
So you don't think the Jesus Christians are really Christians at all? (Malcom I think I can tell from your post that you still consider yourself a Christian. Do you still consider yourself a Christian Apostate? I know there's been some todo about who Apostate really is. If you don't want to give away your identity and you think this question will don't bother answering it. I'd just like to know where you're coming from.)
How do you guys define Christianity, and what does a group have to do to qualify as being Christian?
Quote
Malcom
I imagine that the Kingdom of Heaven will be as close as possible to a "pluralistic, inclusive democracy"
If it's not too much of a departure from the subject of this thread. How did you come to that understanding? I admit I like the sound of your kingdom of heaven better, but all I've found in scripture describing the government would be "the Messiah ruling with an iron scepter". I can't be sure exactly what is meant by "ruling with an iron scepter", but it's never sounded very egalitarian to me.
Quote
apostate
if you accept that I am not attacking, slandering, pouring forth vile untrue accusations, lying, or stupid.
I have learned to be slow to judgement, especially about people who I only know via an internet forum. The way you type doesn't sound stupid to me, and as far as I can tell you seem to at least believe what you are saying is true as do the Jesus Christians believe what they're saying is true. I am not judge between you and them and don't care to be involved in the fight you guys have going on since having absolutely no knowlege of the situations being fought over I am in no position to add anything to either side of the argument.
The reason for my questions (I probably owe you guys that much) is because it seems strange to me how you guys and the Jesus Christians could come to such a radically different understanding of how their group operates. From what I can tell the members of the Jesus Christians seem quite happy where they're at and quite excited about the work they're doing. I have met a few of them in person and they didn't seem crazy or brainwashed or anything. They weren't at all pushy with their beliefs which surprised me since I think my own mainline Christian denomination is more pushy to have people join than they were. I want to understand why the Jesus Christians seem to work well for some people but not for others. I'm already speaking to the people that the Jesus Christians are working well for, so I decided to hear from the others.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 09, 2007 12:11AM
cultmalleus said,
FYI--There is no indication that Apostate has broken the rules by posting under more than one user name.
PtolemyGlenn/King Tut did that though and was banned.
Fran says,
Fran, given the controversy that surrounds Dave McKay regarding his behavior, the problems within his own family and the many people that have left the JCs, do you think Dave McKay may have failed to follow God, disobeyed God in some way and/or made poor choices? What examples can you think of?
Fran said,
Fran, can you recall specific examples to demonstrate how teams acted independently by directly going against the wishes of Dave McKay? What examples can you cite? What happened when they disregarded Dave McKay's opinions or ideas?
Quote
Boyd, whoops, I meant Tony, whoops, I meant Attila, whoops, I meant Craig, whoops, I meant Apostate secretly masquerading as Kevin or maybe he's really Dave using another IP???
FYI--There is no indication that Apostate has broken the rules by posting under more than one user name.
PtolemyGlenn/King Tut did that though and was banned.
Fran says,
Quote
There is no other option worth trying other than following God. I have spent most of my life trying out the option of disobeying God, and it was not for me. I've been there and done that. I firmly believe that following God is the only option worth choosing.
Fran, given the controversy that surrounds Dave McKay regarding his behavior, the problems within his own family and the many people that have left the JCs, do you think Dave McKay may have failed to follow God, disobeyed God in some way and/or made poor choices? What examples can you think of?
Fran said,
Quote
Most JCs are in independent autonomous teams where they can choose to do whatever they like.
Fran, can you recall specific examples to demonstrate how teams acted independently by directly going against the wishes of Dave McKay? What examples can you cite? What happened when they disregarded Dave McKay's opinions or ideas?
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Josh
()
Date: February 09, 2007 12:48AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Fran, can you recall specific examples to demonstrate how teams acted independently by directly going against the wishes of Dave McKay? What examples can you cite? What happened when they disregarded Dave McKay's opinions or ideas?
How does one tell the difference between a group of people who are brainwashed and a group of people who have assembled themselves around common ideals? Wouldn't a group of people with a similar, unique, view of life tend to naturally come to similar, unique positions on a majority of issues. Wouldn't that look nearly identical to a brainwashing cult to outsiders that are looking for a cult-like mentality?
What evidence could an outsider look at to see if the Jesus Christians are forced to donate a kidney, for example, verses just being a group with a set of common ideals that would lead to a greater percentage of altruistic donation than the population at large? Also what do you suppose would be the motivation for such a group to try and prove themselves to be one or the other?
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 09, 2007 02:20AM
Josh:
Let's wait to see what Fran has to say.
Here are some basic guidelines:
See [www.culteducation.com]
[b:f32db230d6]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:f32db230d6]
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Let's wait to see what Fran has to say.
Here are some basic guidelines:
See [www.culteducation.com]
[b:f32db230d6]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:f32db230d6]
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
apostate
()
Date: February 09, 2007 05:26AM
Quote
JoshQuote
Do you still consider yourself a Christian Apostate?
In the big scheme of thing Josh, does it really matter what an individual "calls" themselves? What difference does a badge make in the end, except to make fellow badge wearers feel more at ease with each other. I think that such things are inconsequential, and as a result I will answer your question in a similar fashion to Gandhi. "I am a Hindu, a Christian, a Muslim, an atheist, a Jew, a Siekh..." Being part of something invisible Josh, one does not look for walls of division, only actions of unification.Quote
How do you guys define Christianity, and what does a group have to do to qualify as being Christian?
First I would say that Jesus was NOT a "Christian". That being said, it would logically follow that many non Christians are doing good, good enough to bypass "pharisees" on a road leading to life. So if Jesus was NOT a Christian I would encourage people to not look for ways to "qualify" on how to be a "Christian". I am more concerned on whether such groups are doing right by each other and those outside their ranks than whether they qualify as "Christian". If I determine that such groups are not doing right, then I would say that they are unhealthy and as such generate more discord and harm than good. I consider the group which calls itself "Jesus Christians" to be a group which is currently generating more discord and harm than good.QuoteQuote
Malcom
I imagine that the Kingdom of Heaven will be as close as possible to a "pluralistic, inclusive democracy"
If it's not too much of a departure from the subject of this thread. How did you come to that understanding? I admit I like the sound of your kingdom of heaven better, but all I've found in scripture describing the government would be "the Messiah ruling with an iron scepter". I can't be sure exactly what is meant by "ruling with an iron scepter", but it's never sounded very egalitarian to me.
Hmm, does it matter if something is not egalitarian to you Josh? Are you a person who believes in a principle of equality amongst humanity? If so how do you respond to the above scripture you quoted. Is the above scripture enough to cause you to turn away from a principle of equality amongst humanity?
In answer to how I came to this understanding... by empathy. Imagine being on the receiving end of an "iron scepter" for a moment. In order to weld and "iron scepter" one has to either dehumanise the person subjected to it, or to use "end justifies the means" approaches.Quote
I have learned to be slow to judgement, especially about people who I only know via an internet forum. The way you type doesn't sound stupid to me, and as far as I can tell you seem to at least believe what you are saying is true as do the Jesus Christians believe what they're saying is true. I am not judge between you and them and don't care to be involved in the fight you guys have going on since having absolutely no knowlege of the situations being fought over I am in no position to add anything to either side of the argument.
Thank you Josh. I respect what you have said, and am happy to answer your questions.Quote
The reason for my questions (I probably owe you guys that much) is because it seems strange to me how you guys and the Jesus Christians could come to such a radically different understanding of how their group operates.
In some ways Josh it could be comparable to a family which looks good on the outside, but on the inside a different story is revealed by members of that family. On the outside you may hear words like "autonomous" "Free" "democratic" "equality" describing life in the group but quite a different picture emerges once one is inside the group.
I think the different perspectives result from a definite power imbalance between the one claiming "divine authority" along with those that accept such a claim, and those who do not. If one accepts that exercising power from a "top down" position is the best way to go then that belief will naturally generate a different perspective to those who favour a "bottom up" position and way of operating. Those coming from a "top down" position will deem their actions benevolent and for the "good" of those beneath, while those beneath will view such actions as paternalistic and disconnected from reality. Those coming from a "bottom up" position may see their actions as being based upon concepts of equality, while the one in a position of power deem such actions as being the work of "rebels". It is a common political pattern which repeats itself endlessly. For myself I operate froma "bottom up" frame of reference and am prepared to be branded rebel as a result.Quote
From what I can tell the members of the Jesus Christians seem quite happy where they're at and quite excited about the work they're doing.
Being happy and excited about what one does is all well and good, but it is possible to be happy and excited and in error.Quote
I have met a few of them in person and they didn't seem crazy or brainwashed or anything. They weren't at all pushy with their beliefs which surprised me since I think my own mainline Christian denomination is more pushy to have people join than they were.
I would think if the group is on the street 6 days a week pushing their beliefs by distributing literature they would not find a need to be so pushy after hours.Quote
I want to understand why the Jesus Christians seem to work well for some people but not for others. I'm already speaking to the people that the Jesus Christians are working well for, so I decided to hear from the others.
As mentioned earlier Josh, I think it comes down to what a person is prepared to accept in this life. If a person has lower standards of equality and sees that it is justifiable to use "top down" "end justifies the means" approaches towards others then such people will see it as working well for them. Those who do not will not.
Please feel free to ask more questions Josh. It is good to have a healthy discussion about these matters.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Punky B
()
Date: February 09, 2007 05:45AM
Quote
Malcom
I encourage you to look through their teachings (although I personally cannot recommend their site in general) and see for yourself.
It's good that you want Josh to look through the JC teachings, but why do you not reccommend their website?
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
free of DM
()
Date: February 09, 2007 08:20AM
Quote
cultmalleus
I think there are times Dave tries to be good, but .....
[i:5c33e5d010]' Good people shine from afar like the peaks of the Himalayas'[/i:5c33e5d010]
Dhammapada
They never try to get in jail jail for publicty.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
cultmalleus
()
Date: February 09, 2007 09:15PM
Thanks for sharing, Fran.
I say I am following God much better being outside the group, you say following God means staying in the group.
You will never publicly air your disagreements with Dave. You probably don't air them at all, to avoid long painful grievances.
I believe the "autonomous communities" thing is not true, just a facade to make people think you are free. You will, of course, tell me you're really free.
The problem is that while you are in the group you have to always demonstrate loyalty to the group for the outside world. Even if you are sad, you will tell us how happy you are. You end up having to defend things like the whipping of a thief. You weigh things up and think that overall the group is better than anything else but increasingly you have to go along with all sorts of stuff you wouldn't go along with if you were independant.
In the end most of us decide we just cannot keep denying our consciences and the balance of the percieved good and bad gets to a breaking point.
So that's why the majority of people who join the Jesus Christians leave. I'll emphasise that. There are many more ex members than current members. On the surface it sounds great. Dig deeper, live it, and you find it's not so good. You think it might get better. But it doesn't.
The amazing miracle is that after leaving, and after post group culture shock, life gets better and better. It's not like life before the group, when you might have been vulnerable and practically a teenager. You can make many more decisions yourself, you can practically help many more people, and really love and care and be kind. You can have a holiday or a rest if you want. You can experience the grace of a loving God who wants to be kind to you.
I tell you, you'd be amazed at the weight that can lift off your shoulders.
I say I am following God much better being outside the group, you say following God means staying in the group.
You will never publicly air your disagreements with Dave. You probably don't air them at all, to avoid long painful grievances.
I believe the "autonomous communities" thing is not true, just a facade to make people think you are free. You will, of course, tell me you're really free.
The problem is that while you are in the group you have to always demonstrate loyalty to the group for the outside world. Even if you are sad, you will tell us how happy you are. You end up having to defend things like the whipping of a thief. You weigh things up and think that overall the group is better than anything else but increasingly you have to go along with all sorts of stuff you wouldn't go along with if you were independant.
In the end most of us decide we just cannot keep denying our consciences and the balance of the percieved good and bad gets to a breaking point.
So that's why the majority of people who join the Jesus Christians leave. I'll emphasise that. There are many more ex members than current members. On the surface it sounds great. Dig deeper, live it, and you find it's not so good. You think it might get better. But it doesn't.
The amazing miracle is that after leaving, and after post group culture shock, life gets better and better. It's not like life before the group, when you might have been vulnerable and practically a teenager. You can make many more decisions yourself, you can practically help many more people, and really love and care and be kind. You can have a holiday or a rest if you want. You can experience the grace of a loving God who wants to be kind to you.
I tell you, you'd be amazed at the weight that can lift off your shoulders.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Fran
()
Date: February 09, 2007 11:52PM
Cultmalleus,
I am not sure where our conversation is going, because we are both firmly stuck in what we are saying, and I especially don't appreciate it when people twist my words to make them say something that I have not said. (e.g. claiming that I said following God means staying in the group. No, following God means following God.)
You imply that I am a slave, brainwashed, controlled, sad little puppet. I say I am free and am trying to follow God.
You say that even if I am sad and miserable, I will always proclaim that I am happy to be in the JCs. I say that even if I am happy in the JCs, you will always proclaim that I am sad and miserable.
You say that we don't really have autonomous teams that make their own decisions. And yet we do. The difference is that I am speaking from reality, and you are speaking from speculation.
I think that much of what you say against me is just an attempt by you to project yourself onto me. You have probably never met me, and yet you claim to be an expert on my relationship with God. If you really want to know what I believe, why don't you go to our music page and hear the songs I have put up on the site? I wrote many of the songs there (and I didn't have to ask permission to write them!). Then again, you might get brainwashed... :roll:
You say that the majority of people who leave the JCs did so because their conscience tells them to. I'm sorry, but that has not been my experience in the last nine years. I can't remember anyone who even claimed they were leaving for such reasons. I think the people during the split may have come close to that, and they were going to go off and show us just what following Jesus was all about. They lasted a few weeks together. Their leader later publicly blasphemed against Jesus, teaching that Jesus is a hypocrite and a false prophet. He was truly apostate.
All the things that you are experiencing now outside the group, I have been experiencing within the group. This is not to say that I am loyal to the JCs for life. I am not. I am loyal to God, and I experience his grace regardless of what group I am in or out of.
Finally, you say
That seems to be the source of your entire grievance against me. I can live with that.
I am not sure where our conversation is going, because we are both firmly stuck in what we are saying, and I especially don't appreciate it when people twist my words to make them say something that I have not said. (e.g. claiming that I said following God means staying in the group. No, following God means following God.)
You imply that I am a slave, brainwashed, controlled, sad little puppet. I say I am free and am trying to follow God.
You say that even if I am sad and miserable, I will always proclaim that I am happy to be in the JCs. I say that even if I am happy in the JCs, you will always proclaim that I am sad and miserable.
You say that we don't really have autonomous teams that make their own decisions. And yet we do. The difference is that I am speaking from reality, and you are speaking from speculation.
I think that much of what you say against me is just an attempt by you to project yourself onto me. You have probably never met me, and yet you claim to be an expert on my relationship with God. If you really want to know what I believe, why don't you go to our music page and hear the songs I have put up on the site? I wrote many of the songs there (and I didn't have to ask permission to write them!). Then again, you might get brainwashed... :roll:
You say that the majority of people who leave the JCs did so because their conscience tells them to. I'm sorry, but that has not been my experience in the last nine years. I can't remember anyone who even claimed they were leaving for such reasons. I think the people during the split may have come close to that, and they were going to go off and show us just what following Jesus was all about. They lasted a few weeks together. Their leader later publicly blasphemed against Jesus, teaching that Jesus is a hypocrite and a false prophet. He was truly apostate.
All the things that you are experiencing now outside the group, I have been experiencing within the group. This is not to say that I am loyal to the JCs for life. I am not. I am loyal to God, and I experience his grace regardless of what group I am in or out of.
Finally, you say
Quote
cultmalleus
You will never publicly air your disagreements with Dave.
That seems to be the source of your entire grievance against me. I can live with that.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Gladitzover
()
Date: February 10, 2007 12:00AM
Quote
From what I can tell the members of the Jesus Christians seem quite happy where they're at and quite excited about the work they're doing.
As a JC member, I only ONCE spoke to another member about how I really felt about the group. I admitted that i sometimes felt like leaving...the other person said that they often did too. It was a rare moment of honesty. The unfortunate thing was that the other member then "turned me in" and my comments were thrown back in my face in a grievance meeting.
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