King Tut/Glen said,

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i did have another log in here, but i created it at work, than i forgot the password, so i thought might as well create another account.
What was the other user name?

Did you ever post under that user name?

Are you the "Glen" that posted this?

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used to troll Christian chat rooms... I always used vlper until I got banned then I'd come back under another name, troll around with a few seemingly supportive posts then start again. Come to think of it... eventually my whole ISP got banned from some chat groups.

Cultmalleus, Gladitzover, Matilda and all of us ex-JCs, being on this forum is a responsible thing to do, just like Matilda said. It shows indeed we have moved on and, as I can see from our many interesting posts we live in our communities--wherever they are in the world--hard-working, with honesty and integrity. As for myself, I also live simply and in harmony with nature and the environment. My world is big and beautiful. I live in peace. A far cry from the convoluted, isolated, small "world of Dave."
Two messages for Dave and his crew, one is from a ... no, scrap that...Dave has heard me say those words before, and it will clue him who I am. I kind of enjoy that he doesn't. And he has often been wrong, as we all know.

Below is a post from the JC forum from someone named "Steven". I thought it was very interesting.
[welikejesus.com]


about 5 years ago I was contacted by Dave (and Cherri I beleive) via email, in an unsollicited response to a posting I had made on a secular board about my being a live kidney donor.

I am also a practicing Christian, and have occasionaly shared my faith as a foundation to what motivated my actions.

Long story short - I come from a Jehovah's Witness background (17 years) and there were things about Dave, in how he addressed me, that set off warning signals. I felt very much like I was being recruited and Dave even included me in their philosphies as a fellow brother, although I did not know the group. Just because soembody claims to be a beleiver does not make them so.

I told Dave that I was not comfortable with his approach.
Dave proceeded to respnd with scriptural quotations and teachings that seemed to lean on his own interpretation being quite authoritive, in that If I was truly a beleiver in Christ then I would recognize his annointed voce (Dave).

I didint dig that, at all. VERY JW styled. I also do not recal the biblical text stating "THALL SHALL NOT REFUTE DAVE".

Dave and I went back and forth for a short period, until I literally told him "I aint one of you Jack" I also got a phone call from a very young follower of Dave, I think the kid was Australian, cant remember his name but it might have been Jeremy??? cant remember. He was coming to Los Angeles, where I lived at the time. I remember that the kid was very bright, very sincere, he reminded me of ME - in my young JW days. That also bothered me.

Dave however bothered me the most, because after our back and forth was proving to be unfruitful - he started to pitch shift on me.

The more I disputed his authority in doctrine, the more spiritually thrteatening he became, quoting scripture pertaining to God's wrath and being cast aside. Dave was attempting to scare me into yeilding to him, which in effect only solidified my beleif that Dave had quite an ego and a ravenous group of followers feeding it.

I called Dave on his behaviour, and his instensity only grew.

If you want to piss off a leader people, simply question their authority, that's really all you have to do. At that point, whatevr they do next will tell you what's most important to them.

Dave could have shaken the dust off of his sandles in regard to me, but he was angry, so he shot some attempted fear missles my way. Took him a few passes to realize that I was not imopressionable, nor was I ignorant to what I beleive are cult-like attributes in terms of authority and leadership. We agreed to leave each other alone. But I did take his survivors book (its in my library) and I do read your newsletter from time to time.

And every time I do, I am further convinced that Dave is what I thought he was, and like I told him before "I aint one of you Jack."

Had Dave truly been gifted with spiritual authority, he'd have known I was a waste of time from the very beginning. But he did not. And, he sought ME out, not the other way around.

Dave's attempts to put the fear of God (with Dave as God's voice) into me showed me several things:

1) Fear of a wrathful Jehovah is not the root fo Christ's ministry, but it sure works great as plan B if these hard heds are not getting it.

2) Control is always at the heart of a substitute for faith and trust. I know the Jesuschristians lead a lifestyle that seems to place all trust in God, and I repsct this, much like I respect the followersd of the JW's as opposed to the leadership. But what God ordains shall always come to pass. What was ordained between Dave and I? For what purposes?

3) Faith in God can indeed lead one to take risks, such as is the case with Kidney donations. I can accept that to a degree, and to a degree dave and I share a common viewpoint. However, my decision came from a quiet place within the confines of my faith, no charasmatic leader led me to it, or introduced the concept as part of a set of personal ideals. It is also not a critical identifyer in my faith and walk with God. I have done many risky things because of my faith, many of which are much more dangerous than giving an organ. Those thigns too, remain with me, as the text quotes to "Not let you left hand know what your right hand is doing". Dave's approach seems to be quite different. The who internet knows what his right hand is doing.

4) These lashes taken in the Joe situation.....seems to me, that if a charasmatic leader set himself up for reputable martyrdom that allowed him to be punished and bled for the sake of others in a christ like manner, yet allowed him to retain working authoritive control fo a group of followers, you'd really have something. Daves decision to receive the lashes could certainly elevate his divine nature to his followers. Especially since he took on the greatest share fo the punishment.

We have one mediator allready. One lamb. Dave, your not it.

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Moderator,
I'm not positive but, I don't think that this is the same "Glen". If I recall correctly the other "Glen" was the JC's friend Jinny the Squinny.

Of course, Glenn can answer from him self. :?

Glenn,
Thanks for answering people's questions. There is good and bad in everything. None of us would have joined our groups if there wasn't something good that initially attracted us. There seems to come a point when we have to ask ourselves which is the greater here...the good or the bad.

I have read some posts on the JC forum where you have questioned their stance or Dave's authority on something. Sorry I can't remember exactly where it was. I hope you recall it. Anyway, it gave me flash backs reading those exchanges. That was probably your first experience of a "grievance" with Dave but most of us here have had MANY and they all go the way of that exchange you had. Dave wears you down until it becomes very clear that you either agree that you are wrong or you hit the road. It isn't always (but usually) worded that way . If that happens once or twice...no big deal. We are supposed to be humble as Christians. When that happens continually for years and years...even in areas where you should have the authority to make decisions e.g. with your wife, or family. Then it can be spiritually dangerous for everyone... including Dave.
It has been said here before...he will have to account to God for the way that he has meddled in people's families, live and marriages. He has taken on authority that he has no business to take.

It would be nice to meet with you and discuss things more. Unfortunately, I am far, far away. I hope your quest for Truth takes you to safe and peaceful places.

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KingTut
I'll try and answer all your questions in one reply.

Apostate: They are very work orientated. They are very concerned if you hurt yourself and you will have many run to offer to help you with touch healing.
I just want ot say also you dont see me on an ex-scientologist site, being bitter towards them. I see it as it wasnt for me and i've moved on, i've spoken to a few current scientolgists but its best not to as it will cause more trouble for them, as they are not to associtated with people who "blow" (a term used for those who go AWOL)

And sorry i have seen a few posts where some of you guys were wanting to be character witness or whatever you call it for the family who violently beat Reinahd, im sorry in my eyes this is someone you knew when you were a member and to see that he deserved it, is quite tacky. I have noticed that you do seem to be more level headed than a few of the others.
I have also spoken to Dave about loving your enemies and those stuff that you mentioned and it was quite the opposite of what you said.

And why havent i become a JC yet? I dont jump into things that's what got me into the position years ago with Scientology. I am taking my time reading the articles and getting to know the members before i make such a change in my life. And unlike Scinetology Dave is not pushy about it, he is very open to answering my questions and discussing from the bible.

Thank you for responding Glenn.

It is good that you have spoken to Dave about Loving his enemies; so he has changed his position on targetted killing of a person who runs amok in his justifiable murder riot scenario has he? He seemed pretty solid on the issue when it was a point of hot discussion on his forum. So much so that you felt a need to oppose him, and I compliment you for that.

I have to agree with Cultmalleus on the ex member "bitterness" accusation that is being bandied around by JC's. It is a clever silencing ploy. You have chosen to not go to ex scientologist web sites where ex members of that group get to voice the hurts to someone who will listen, and with a broad and judgemental brush have said that to do so is to show evidence of bitterness, as though that was somehow wrong. If all ex scientologists did as you have done they group would not be exposed as the cult it is today... can you see that? Thanks to some brave souls speaking out about their expeiences others have been forewarned. Do you go to such sites and tell ex scientologists that they are being bitter and that they should stop talking negatively about the Scientologists?

I think you mentioned that you work with youth, correct me if I am wrong. If the youth you were working to support experienced the loss of their parents and was expressing anger and rage about it, would you tell them their emotions were out of place? I doubt you would. My point being, even if an ex member was experiencing some bitterness towards their time in the JC cult... so what? It is a valid and normal reaction to hurt suffered, and with the opportunity to express that hurt in a safe non judgemental accepting environment that bitterness will subside. Some ex members have said that they find posting here to be a therapeutic experience.

It is good that you are taking your time assessing the situation Glenn before you join the JC's. Being here will show you an alternative perspective to what is presented on the JC forum. From which you will be able to make a more informed decision.

Another question for you Glen: what do you think about Dave's "Honest to whom" teachings? Being an ex member I know he has used it as a justification for illegal behaviour previously.

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rrmoderator
King Tut/Glen said,

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i did have another log in here, but i created it at work, than i forgot the password, so i thought might as well create another account.
What was the other user name?

Did you ever post under that user name?

Are you the "Glen" that posted this?

Quote

used to troll Christian chat rooms... I always used vlper until I got banned then I'd come back under another name, troll around with a few seemingly supportive posts then start again. Come to think of it... eventually my whole ISP got banned from some chat groups.

No that wasnt me, and my name is Glenn with 2 NN's i get very fussy about that

Hi Apostate.

Im not sure what you meant in your first paragraph sorry. All i know is my opinion is if someone attacks me i will fight back to protect myself. I dont belive Jesus wants us to stand there while we get a beating, or shot or cut up by somebody. Of course Jesus stood by and let himself get beating, lashed etc etc, but he had to do that to save us.
Fighting back to protect yourself i belive does mean you can still love your enemy, you just dont have to be stupid.

I am all for ex members of group getting together in person or on forums to talk about there problems, to uplift and help each other, and i have done the same in the past. You all have seemed to miss what i really mean, this forum should be used for good, okay if you want to tell people not to join a group thjat is fine as long as you back it up with hard evidnece, not just because you had a personality clash.
As someone said your ex-members but at one point you were members, and there must have been something there that you liked.
You asked me what was positive about Scientology, I ask you now to do the same about the JC?

But some of the posts some of you have posted have actually been very vile, even childish, if your all well adjusted adults im sure you can keep at at a level which doesnt lower itself to feeding of a leech.

The ex-scientologists i have seen we have talked of happier things about the great things we are doing. We know we dont like that cult anymore and we know they are controlling etc but there has to be a time you say " Oaky it was bad, but im bigger and better than they are, if you keep rehashing the bad, your doomed to be trapped in that box.

I was a youth leader at my church for 2 years, of course i would let them get angry and spill everything to me, but you cant keep going in that circle of hate, sometime you have to move on. There parents would want them too right? My main point with the bitterness is this aint people who left in the last year, we are talking 5+ and they are still bitter, a word of advice seek a counsellor i did and it worked wonders.

I have no idea what you mena by Dave's illegal activties from what i have gathered from both sides illegal stuff was done by members, and i think its pretty selfish for them to blame Dave for things they have done
As i said on the JC forum if Dave farts sme of you guys blame him for all the woes with the Ozone Layer

Dear King Tut,

I am also happy to meet up with you in Melbourne around the middle of the year although it may not be a very pleasant meeting.

It's difficult to take you seriously...are you simply gullible? Or has David prompted you to become a new "front" for him.....? ( ...I can't tell if its' head man or head job here????)

Hey look haven't you heard? I've decided to "move-on".....I'm going to form a new religious organization called the Christians-Jesus which takes the teachings of the scriptures to new heights of literal obediance....all you need do to become involved is to give me all that you have financially, (which I'll use to fund the on-going activities of my organization), years of your life without any recompense and then when you start to question the truths I've revealed in the scriptural record....I'll conspire to "vote" you out of my little empire (as I always make sure that I control the "numbers").....and don't forget if you complain about any of this, I'll just have cause to remind you of how "bitter" you have become!

Until you have literally done this, you have God- damn nothing to say to those on this forum who have been through years of such "heart ache"...

Take your "hate and vile" obseiance back to the garden party of syncophancy and in the circle of wilful obsfucation, you can drown in the conceptual sewerage that constitutes the "debate" therein.....

Dear Matilda,

I realize that in some respects all these activities became "fronts" for David, however the "Free Community Work", the programs in India and even possibly the some of the work in Kenya today are, or were, all worthwhile programs that the JC's have, or even are, still involved in.

Eventually those who are genuine with God and themselves, obviously end up leaving....but that may take some time to occur and in the meantime, I think that the "prayers of the righteous" may still avail some, even in the midst of the deception of the JC's.

Malcolm