Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 01:02AM
[www.jesus-teachings.com]
12/06/2010 03:54
Interesting, very interesting indeed. Fran made this post just six months before the ''disbanding''.
I guess you decided to follow through with this plan, eh Fran?
12/06/2010 03:54
Quote
Fran
This is a classic illustration of the self fulfilling situation people like Brian and the cult busters create.
What would be the most natural response of any group to the kind of things that Brian is saying? Will it cause them to reveal MORE information about themselves or will it cause them to go further underground?
Do we have to change our names, cut all ties with family and friends, stop sending out newsletters, and disappear completely to ensure that people like Brian (and those who work with him) cannot get to us?
Interesting, very interesting indeed. Fran made this post just six months before the ''disbanding''.
I guess you decided to follow through with this plan, eh Fran?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: April 04, 2011 02:01AM
Well Fran,
The most natural response of an honest group would be to demonstrate how wrongs the things being said about the group are--if indeed they are wrong.
Changing names, cutting all ties with family and friends, stopping sending out newsletters and disappearing completely, for a group that is simply being criticised on an internet discussion board for its known behaviour-- not physically threatened in any way--- is indicative of something to hide, raging paranoia and the well-nourished persecution fantasies that Davejc has grandiosely instilled in the group over many years.
And to think that Davejc has so assiduously courted any publicity he could get all these years, only to turn tail and run--go underground--when his pathetic 'teachings' cannot stand up to a wider scrutiny than the small band of utterly confused and dependent sycophants he has enslaved to his own glory.
The need to disappear completely is just another grandiose fantasy that exists only in Davejc's head---that he should think himself so important that anyone but us would notice...........!!!
They could all completely disappear most effectively by becoming ordinary human beings like the rest of us, rather than posing as the vainglorious 'saviours' of the rest of the world that Davejc has manipulated them into believing they are.
Oh Vanity, thy name is Dave McKay.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 02:04AM by Stoic.
The most natural response of an honest group would be to demonstrate how wrongs the things being said about the group are--if indeed they are wrong.
Changing names, cutting all ties with family and friends, stopping sending out newsletters and disappearing completely, for a group that is simply being criticised on an internet discussion board for its known behaviour-- not physically threatened in any way--- is indicative of something to hide, raging paranoia and the well-nourished persecution fantasies that Davejc has grandiosely instilled in the group over many years.
And to think that Davejc has so assiduously courted any publicity he could get all these years, only to turn tail and run--go underground--when his pathetic 'teachings' cannot stand up to a wider scrutiny than the small band of utterly confused and dependent sycophants he has enslaved to his own glory.
The need to disappear completely is just another grandiose fantasy that exists only in Davejc's head---that he should think himself so important that anyone but us would notice...........!!!
They could all completely disappear most effectively by becoming ordinary human beings like the rest of us, rather than posing as the vainglorious 'saviours' of the rest of the world that Davejc has manipulated them into believing they are.
Oh Vanity, thy name is Dave McKay.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 02:04AM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 02:19AM
Quote
Stoic
Changing names, cutting all ties with family and friends, stopping sending out newsletters and disappearing completely, for a group that is simply being criticised on an internet discussion board for its known behaviour-- not physically threatened in any way--- is indicative of something to hide, raging paranoia and the well-nourished persecution fantasies that Davejc has grandiosely instilled in the group over many years.
Yet it's clear McKay has tried to create a fear factor within the cult. He has made it his ultimate goal to convince his victims/followers that there is a serious risk of violence. Later in that thread which I posted he continues the myth that his critics could turn violent.
It seems he has finally managed to convince his victims/followers that going underground is the only way to avoid a violent attack.
What would be in it for McKay if the cult went underground? That has to be the question.
Less interference from family and friends?
More control for McKay?
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: April 04, 2011 03:43AM
To the extent to which they buy into the paranoia, it consolidates his hold over them. Fearful, panicky people cannot think straight and will dumbly follow any confident voice that promises safety and salvation.
So its really a continuation of what he has already been laying as groundwork all these years, although it is an escalation which doesn't augur well for anyone still believing in him.
I think we have to hope, as Malcolm says, that being left to their own devices for a while even with Davejc's carefully planted paranoia floating in their heads, some of the more grounded ones will begin to doubt the Apostle's word and kickstart some personal thought process again.
The younger, newer converts are more likely to do that than the old-timers who have heavily invested in the Davejc version of the world, simply because it is easier to change the course of a lifetime earlier rather than later in that lifetime.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 03:54AM by Stoic.
So its really a continuation of what he has already been laying as groundwork all these years, although it is an escalation which doesn't augur well for anyone still believing in him.
I think we have to hope, as Malcolm says, that being left to their own devices for a while even with Davejc's carefully planted paranoia floating in their heads, some of the more grounded ones will begin to doubt the Apostle's word and kickstart some personal thought process again.
The younger, newer converts are more likely to do that than the old-timers who have heavily invested in the Davejc version of the world, simply because it is easier to change the course of a lifetime earlier rather than later in that lifetime.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 03:54AM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 03:48AM
Hopefully Joe will grow some balls and get the hell out of there.
Mrs Johnson has suffered enough. It's about time Joe started putting his mother first instead of that vile old pervert McKay.
Mrs Johnson has suffered enough. It's about time Joe started putting his mother first instead of that vile old pervert McKay.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 06:53AM
Are the JCs a cult?
The group focuses on a living leader who gets members' zealous, unquestioning commitment - CHECK
Recruiting new members is very important to the group - CHECK
Making money is very important to the group - CHECK
Mind-numbing techniques (including meditation, chanting, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used - CHECK
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged, even punished - CHECK
Members are controlled through guilt - CHECK
Members are told how to think, act or feel (what to wear, how to discipline children; who to befriend, date, marry, or work for) - CHECK
Members cut ties with family or friends - CHECK
Members give up personal goals and activities they once cared about - CHECK
The group claims special or exalted status (The leader is seen as divine or "chosen"; the group or leader has a special mission) - CHECK (''Apostle'' David)
The group has a polarized mentality (us vs. them) - CHECK
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are mainstream military and religious leaders) - CHECK
Members are encouraged or required to live or socialize only with other group members - CHECK
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group - CHECK
The group focuses on a living leader who gets members' zealous, unquestioning commitment - CHECK
Recruiting new members is very important to the group - CHECK
Making money is very important to the group - CHECK
Mind-numbing techniques (including meditation, chanting, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used - CHECK
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged, even punished - CHECK
Members are controlled through guilt - CHECK
Members are told how to think, act or feel (what to wear, how to discipline children; who to befriend, date, marry, or work for) - CHECK
Members cut ties with family or friends - CHECK
Members give up personal goals and activities they once cared about - CHECK
The group claims special or exalted status (The leader is seen as divine or "chosen"; the group or leader has a special mission) - CHECK (''Apostle'' David)
The group has a polarized mentality (us vs. them) - CHECK
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are mainstream military and religious leaders) - CHECK
Members are encouraged or required to live or socialize only with other group members - CHECK
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group - CHECK
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: April 04, 2011 04:12PM
'to ensure that people like Brian (and those who work with him) cannot get to us?'
I think that Fran knows, on some level, that he has backed a loser in Davejc--but he is clinging so desperately to the party line ---for fear of being an ordinary, uncertain person like the rest of us again---that he cannot admit this to himself.
He's been at this so long that he cannot allow himself to doubt the 'Apostle', even though the evidence of his own eyes must tell him that Davejc is fallible and no more a divine conduit, no different to any of us.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 04:12PM by Stoic.
I think that Fran knows, on some level, that he has backed a loser in Davejc--but he is clinging so desperately to the party line ---for fear of being an ordinary, uncertain person like the rest of us again---that he cannot admit this to himself.
He's been at this so long that he cannot allow himself to doubt the 'Apostle', even though the evidence of his own eyes must tell him that Davejc is fallible and no more a divine conduit, no different to any of us.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 04:12PM by Stoic.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 05:50PM
It would seem they are taking a similar route to that of the Jim Roberts cult which is never a good sign. Family members may find it almost impossible to track them down which will suit the old pervert. Family members have always been a hindrance to McKay.
They appear to have accepted defeat in their online campaign to recruit. I imagine they may now be hitting the univerisities in the hope of recruiting new victims/followers. That may be their only option if they have gone underground. The worrying thing is you'll always find the odd naive, anti-establishment, hippy-loving, brats who think it is their duty to ''serve Jesus'' and to ''save the world'', much like Grace. I just hope they can see through the Apostle, which to be fair, most do.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 06:11PM by Apollo.
They appear to have accepted defeat in their online campaign to recruit. I imagine they may now be hitting the univerisities in the hope of recruiting new victims/followers. That may be their only option if they have gone underground. The worrying thing is you'll always find the odd naive, anti-establishment, hippy-loving, brats who think it is their duty to ''serve Jesus'' and to ''save the world'', much like Grace. I just hope they can see through the Apostle, which to be fair, most do.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 06:11PM by Apollo.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 04, 2011 06:40PM
That's why it's important that we continue to highlight people like the Gianstefani's and of course McKay's soft approach towards Paedophile's.
This will be one of the first port of calls for any potential victim/follower.
They need to know exactly what and who they're getting involved with. These potential's may even have children.
They need to know that they too could end up like the Gianstefani's if they join the cult. Neglecting your own children becomes second nature to JCs victims/followers. Children will never be the priority. You quite simply cannot be a JCs victim/follower if you choose to put your child first.
They need to know that any children they have (or plan to have) will be at serious risk of harm due to the Apostle's soft approach towards paedophile's.
A minimum of 19 children have been abused due to ''Apostle'' David John McKay's soft approach towards paedophile's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 06:41PM by Apollo.
This will be one of the first port of calls for any potential victim/follower.
They need to know exactly what and who they're getting involved with. These potential's may even have children.
They need to know that they too could end up like the Gianstefani's if they join the cult. Neglecting your own children becomes second nature to JCs victims/followers. Children will never be the priority. You quite simply cannot be a JCs victim/follower if you choose to put your child first.
They need to know that any children they have (or plan to have) will be at serious risk of harm due to the Apostle's soft approach towards paedophile's.
A minimum of 19 children have been abused due to ''Apostle'' David John McKay's soft approach towards paedophile's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2011 06:41PM by Apollo.
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by:
Apollo
()
Date: April 05, 2011 07:25AM
Quote
Apollo
That's why it's important that we continue to highlight people like the Gianstefani's and of course McKay's soft approach towards Paedophile's.
This will be one of the first port of calls for any potential victim/follower.
They need to know exactly what and who they're getting involved with. These potential's may even have children.
They need to know that they too could end up like the Gianstefani's if they join the cult. Neglecting your own children becomes second nature to JCs victims/followers. Children will never be the priority. You quite simply cannot be a JCs victim/follower if you choose to put your child first.
They need to know that any children they have (or plan to have) will be at serious risk of harm due to the Apostle's soft approach towards paedophile's.
A minimum of 19 children have been abused due to ''Apostle'' David John McKay's soft approach towards paedophile's.
Below hello/Franky provides a few testimonies. Franky is someone who has spent a huge amount of time in the company of the JCs British branch which includes Roland and Sue Gianstefani. She highlights the child abuse within the JCs cult. She describes how Sue Gianstefani confided in her regarding a case of child abuse within the cult in which the man was ejected (to protect the name of the cult) rather than reported to the authorities. Franky rightly points out that this man was free to abuse again, which for all we know may be continuing to this day. She also describes two underage kidnappings involving Roland Gianstefani.
Quote
hello/Franky
I'm sorry I'm so late to respond to your curiosity! As some of you know I may look at the forums or may not. ( Busy is all )
I'm not ever wanting to deliberately ignore someone. In my opinion what Nick did was unethical. It reminded me of how I felt when one of the JC's dishonestly accessed my forum accounts and published a private email between myself and Kevin. No one ever had the decency to fess up and no one rushed to say it was wrong. There was never an apology from anyone. I found the best thing was to let it go. Forgive.
In this case there were no children being sexually molested. There wasn't an entire community being complicit in the cover- up of child abuse. For a community that prides itself on being willing to ' err on the side of caution ' - it seems you're willing to take some mighty huge and tragic risks when it comes to innocent children.
I hope everyone will pray that the paedophile in your midst isn't still working with vulnerable third world children in Africa. Who's keeping an eye on him now?
A MINIMUM of five children have been sexually molested at the hands of three one time JC's. When all is taken into account that could easily be in double figures. Your community set the tone so that Alf/ Monty was MORE concerned about the reaction of a mother than the harm to innocent children or the rehabilitation of the man himself.
I doubt that concerns Alf/ Monty or any of you at all- because you're all so high on your morality fix.
Children were sodomized , raped , forced to perform oral sex on one of your members - which you furnished with Easy Listening books ( books that are attractive to children ) and sent to India- home of some of the most vulnerable children on the planet. Your community enabled this to happen and the leader didn't even resign and so far has shown NO remorse.
By the time I met the community ( early 2004 ) - there were TWO more cases. One involving ' x' and one involving another member with learning difficulties. At no time was any proper rehabilitation offered to these people.
Instead , as long as they sold enough books Dave happily let them masturbate and fantasize with his blessing.
Quote
hello/Franky
Roland and Sue- that you saw on ' Wifeswap'- have been involved in two cases of ' kidnapping' - both involving underage boys. I once sat with Sue where she told me how one of their community members had sexually molested a young boy- the JC's response was to eject him from the community. The man in question was free to molest again- the only issue they had was that he shouldn't be associated with the JC's. Sue's defence seemed to be that the man' was slow'- though I don't doubt that she was telling the truth- it never occured to her as a Christian to get him some help- so that he couldn't do it again.
Appearances are foremost to the JC's.
What the JC's lack- and it makes them extremely dangerous- is any emotional understanding of situations. They have put themselves in a repressive environment- where they have extremely rigid boundaries- and because they are taught to deny their own emotions- after a while- can no longer recognise the emotional needs and rights of others.
For example- in ' Wifeswap' we have Sue trying to force a little girl to eat a mushy bowl of cereal. A little girl who would have been missing her Mum terribly. Someone with a healthy understanding of relationships and emotions would have dealt with this situation in a completely different way. Sue was there to promote Freeganism- not to bully little girls.
What would have endeared her more to the family and all those watching- would've been if she had of eaten the cereal herself and asked the little girl to hold her hand- as everyone knows- mushy cereal - if you're a little girl- is horrible. There are so many situations that could've been avoided if the JC's showed a bit of compassion and understanding instead of rigid groupthink.
Quote
hello/Franky
I thought I'd better mention that sexual abuse has taken place in the JC community. A male member molested a young boy. The JC's response was to tell the man he had to leave the community. Their justification was that the man was ' slow'- though he had responded to the teachings. As a mother, what I find shocking is that they left this man free to molest again.
I'm not into corporal punishment- nor do I believe that this man- should be condemned- but I believe they had a responsibilty to see the situation through. If the man was ' slow'- he needed help and support from the proper authorities. They basically washed their hands of him- which wasn't helpful to him, the child- or any future child he happens to molest.
Also the JC's have been involved in two cases of kidnapping- both involving underage boys. I'm sure if you ask them- they'll tell you how their behaviour was totally ' above board' etc.
However, if you're familiar with Jung- you'll understand that sometimes people do things without admitting their real feelings to themselves- let alone others. The fact remains- all THREE of these incidents have Roland involved and present. I'm sure he has a reasonable explanation.
I don't believe that having a wife' lovingly' by your side on public view, means that you're not capable of abuse.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2011 07:28AM by Apollo.
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