So, the games within games within games have caught up and involved everyone on the xJC's--total confusion.

That very long spoon is sometimes useful for more than keeping some distance a sharp rap on the knuckles(metaphorically speaking, of course) has its place.

Davejc is threatening court action now over the use/misuse of an anonymous pseudonym on a public forum, he is truly puffed up on his own importance--or should that be 'impotence?'--trying to label that 'identity theft'. It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

It makes one aware, yet again, of the benefits of having clearly established boundaries--and enforcing their recognition-- to ensure a minimum standard of civilised behaviour.

Quote

It is seductive to believe that all poor outcomes could be prevented if only some key person had spoken up at the appropriate time but that is as realistic as claiming to possess the qualities of 100% hindsight-

This is a valuable point.

All the energy spent thinking 'if only I had spoken up or done this'--is a distraction from facing the horror of recognizing that the group was designed to keep a person from from ever having enough accurate information, support, or agency to speak out.

And blaming oneself for not speaking out can be a way to feel a sense of agency when faced with the horror of facing the extent to which one was used as a mere object by
the leader.

When blaming oneself, one feels a sense of personhood, but at the expense of not fully seeing that the group was a rigged game that subverted personhood.

Its like calling oneself stupid for losing a fortune at cards rather than facing the greater pain of seeing that a friend one has trusted put you in a game where the cards where marked.

Most of us would rather face the manageable pain of self blame rather than the greater horror of discovering one was betrayed and how powerless we actually are when not
given full truth by someone we have loved and trusted.
If a set up has years of bad history, a history that went on decades before you ever joined, and if that group (or relationship) existed all along with a hidden agenda to
serve the needs of its leader, no one person
within the group would ever have had a 'right time' to make a difference.

And if a group has effective ways to 1) prevent and or 2) trivialize dissent and 3)
the leader controls information and communication--its hard for more than one
troubled member to identify each other and create a discussion group.

Its no accident that people usally have to leave a group or bad relationship to get sufficient information to speak out and not have this squelched.

Thinking we could have said or done something to change an oppressive group is like small kids who break their own little hearts being convinced that if only they had been nicer, quieter or done something better, Daddy would not have become alcoholic, or had a heart attack.

A wee kid has to hang onto a sense of personal agency and rather than face his or her family and the Big People are totally out of control, will convince him or herself that something a tiny kid can do or say will Change Everything.

Its like believing one can sweep the waves back out to sea by using a push broom.

But in chaos or total oppression, magical thinking is what many people take to.

This is not to say one cannot try to fight back. But the resistance fighters of
World War II worked as members of adult networks, could listen by radio to information from outside sources, created underground newspapers to keep fellow citizens informed and in Poland, at least even created a system of underground universities to educate their young for roles in a future after Poland was liberated from the Nazis.

The Nazis failed to ID and eliminate enough of the persons who had leadership skills
and those who remained created resistance networks.

You cant fight off a rigged card game or dicatatorship by your lone self.

(Jan Karski-Story of a Secret State)

Their objective was to keep their fellow citizens from being scared into regression by the Nazis by imagining a way to live as citizens of a nation that had a long and noble history --a history the Nazis forbade teaching and that the underground made sure to teach in its floating colleges.

They didnt want Poles to blame themselves--they wanted them to have a sense of adult patriotism and fight back!

Back to this thread. Stoic made a valuable point--one can get paralyzed by believing in 100% hindsight and by believing one could have Done Something.

Still--important point. If a person does something defiant in a group it might be a radicalizing memory for those who remain.

But..remember this: Many bad leaders take care to do selective recruiting. They find ways to filter out or kick out anyone who shows dangerous qualities such as leadership talent, kindness that make a leaders nastiness look bad, subversive humor, creativity, levels of competance that make the leader look bad.

This was reportedly done in POW camps by the North Koreans. The Communist Koreans wanted to prevent a set up in which America POWs could organize resistance (as enough Poles did under the Nazi regime)

Method: ID and sequester potential leaders.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Colin Wilson's book Rogue Messiahs.

Wilson said he was told something by Robert Ardrey that was, for some time kept classified during and after the Korean War. It was a key component to the success that the Communist Chinese and North Koreans had in pressurizing POWs to take on the Communist belief system.

This is an important component of what was done: Closely observe the captured soldiers and officers.

Identify the ones (regardless of rank) who showed leadership, initiative, ability to take risks, refusal to respect or fear authority and coercion.

These persons were the ones who were identified ASAP and removed from the general prisoner/POW group and segregated as hard cases.

By identifying and removing the potential leaders, the ones capable of defying the authoritarian belief system (whether by smirking, looking bored, making jokes, digging
escape tunnels and making weapons)--that meant the larger group of prisoners were
much more docile, once this tiny but very important subset of potential leaders and dissidents was 1) identified and 2) removed and segregated.

The docile remainder, without their leaders (and in house jokers, the ones who scribble subversive graffiti, make faces, rude remarks or rip a fart right when the virtues of Communism are being extolled) were that much more easily controlled and manipulated--they were, neurologically, a more uniform group once the leaders and disruptors had been identified and removed.

So. see if your former employer found ways to identify and kick out leaders.

Its especially ugly if a bully not only removes people with leadership potential but cons them to feeling bad about themselves and distrustful of their own talent--a talent the bully does not have.

To con a gifted person into distrusting his or her talent for hard work and leadership is the ultimate and poisonous revenge of a bully.

Most of us dont know nearly enough about Lifton's criteria. But the added element of identifying and removing potential pranksters leaders and escape savvy people would tremendously enhance the impact of the cultic features itemized by Lifton in his list.

What we are seeing at XJCs now demonstrates how abusive groups and relationships can do some good, to some people, to some degree, for some time. Virtually no abusive group or relationship is completely negative. This is the very reason why it is often so difficult to leave an abusive group or relationship. The member thinks "But there is so much good here! How can it be bad?" Recovery therefore, must include extensive examination of the teachings and practices of the group, and determination as to whether they are good or bad, true or false, healthy or unhealthy.

Notice how DM switches back and forth between "buddy mode" and "boss mode" in his postings. He does it repeatedly and without warning or reason. This tends to throw his audience off balance, so they do not know from one moment to the next how he will address them. Thus they end up subconsciously deciding to pay attention and comply with whatever he says or asks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 11:19PM by zeuszor.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
Sorry Zeuszor, but may I ask you for the reference on this forum for the comments Joe confidentially made to his friend about Reinehardt fabricating the extent of his injuries...

Will write directly to you be email about the other matters...

It's somewhere around here, if I am not mistaken...

[forum.culteducation.com]

Everything else has been deleted from the old welikejesus now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2011 11:43PM by zeuszor.

Like the hackneyed 'good cop/bad cop' routine (which still works, however hackneyed) the unpredictability of "buddy mode" and "boss mode" works to undermine self-possession and instil fear.
Its the same dynamic that also works so well at keeping women subjugated in 'battered wife syndrome.' The women eventually find it hard to distinguish between feelings of fear and genuine interest, it all blurs into one stimulus.
Distinctions are important.

Here is a statement, the first I think, by Davejc that I do believe--or at least believe the bolded part:

'I think that Cherry and I are extremely relieved that Kevin has left this forum, and we are praying that it is something to do with his conscience. What I have probably done a very poor job of over the years since it started, was try to get him to look at the people he has been working with, and where all of this is leading. He did stand up to people from time to time, but it did not really stop things from getting worse.'


It could of course be a covert challenge to Kevin to return to defend himself against his father.

This last bit illustrates another technique that DM employs in order to influence the XJCs. He switches back and forth between two styles of writing: "buddy mode" in which he is casual and humorous as if to say "We can be relaxed about this; we don't have to take everything so seriously. I can act like your uncle or even as your friend"; and boss mode," in which he writes in short short phrases and choppy sentences, with an elevated tone, much like an NCO giving commands to the younger soldiers, even though he is only communicating misinformation, and not giving orders or rebuke.

When some one goes into "boss mode" while simply giving information, cognitive dissonance is created. It reads as if he is giving commands and rebuke, when in fact he is only presenting misinformation. As a result, the audience experiences growing tension, even stress, that either causes them to pay closer attention to what is being communicated and accept what DM is communicating, or else comply with what the DM requests of them (the usual response) or causes them to rebel against him, either inwardly or outwardly (the unusual response). In the present case, it seems like most of the XJCs are prepared to comply with McKay's demands.

Quote
Stoic
Like the hackneyed 'good cop/bad cop' routine (which still works, however hackneyed) the unpredictability of "buddy mode" and "boss mode" works to undermine self-possession and instil fear.
Its the same dynamic that also works so well at keeping women subjugated in 'battered wife syndrome.' The women eventually find it hard to distinguish between feelings of fear and genuine interest, it all blurs into one stimulus.
Distinctions are important.

Basic social psychology is at work here. At this point, since most of the JCs (past and present) have made public statements praising David McKay and the Jesus Christians "community" it will be much harder for them to admit that it is abusive. It is humiliating to have to "eat one's words" and the JCs will more than likely redefine the abuses as "discipline" designed to improve the Jesus Christian member who was whipped or otherwise mistreated.

This is very much like what happens with a woman who is abused by her husband, physically or otherwise. Having expressed her love for him and committed herself to living with him "for better or for worse" she finds it impossible to entertain the thought that he could and would deliberately hurt her. So she redefines the abuse and views it either as discipline to make her a better wife and mother, or as a punishment she deserves for failing to please her husband.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 02:50AM by zeuszor.

Quote
Stoic
Its the same dynamic that also works so well at keeping women subjugated in 'battered wife syndrome.' The women eventually find it hard to distinguish between feelings of fear and genuine interest, it all blurs into one stimulus.

Brilliant. Another very valuable point. Thank you for your help and input, Stoic.

Here we go---the first mention of the real agenda from Davejc:

[jcs.xjcs.org]

'If people want to win back some integrity here, I suggest you just dump this forum and either let someone else start a new one (Anita perhaps?) or you start one yourself, but you install some checks and balances on yourself, like a good leader would do. You establish rules, set up a "board" of several moderators, and make yourself accountable to one another. And THEN you can get back into whatever it is that you all most enjoy doing here.

Not trying to tell you how to do your business here (Otherwise, I would be challenging what it is that you all most enjoy doing here! lol) but I am suggesting something that might patch up some of the damage.'


This is the price that Davejc demands for a continuing 'dialogue,' of course (tongue in cheek) not trying to tell them how to do their business.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2011 06:25AM by Stoic.