Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Dogmother ()
Date: December 27, 2007 10:21PM

I have decided on a day of silence while my thoughts and heart focus on the special young man we have all come to know as Zeuzsor.

Zeuzsor is an intense seeker of truth and of love. What more can any of us do?

Zeuzsor you are in my heart today and always.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: December 28, 2007 01:56AM

Yes, ........and thanks for all the (frustrating for you) efforts with the clips, Zeusor......much appreciated!!

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The Lucifer Effect
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: December 28, 2007 09:36AM

Some interesting suggestions for avoding the infleunce of evil taken from a book I am reading currently called "The Lucifer Effect... understanding how good people turn evil" written by Philip Zambardo. It is an extension of the Stanford Prison experiment. It offers sound ways of combatting "group think".

Resisting Influence

Prepared by Philip Zimbardo and Cindy X. Wang

Dr. Z’s 20 Hints About Resisting Unwanted Influences On You

(Here is a set of general advice that I typically offer to students at the end of my courses at Stanford University, whether the course is Introduction to Psychology, Mind Control, or Exploring Human Nature. They cut across the different varieties of influence and are really generic recommendations of how to become more influence savvy.)

1. Do not maintain an illusion of “personal invulnerability” – If it can happen to them, then it can happen to you too.

2. Be modest in self-estimates – it is better to perceive yourself as vulnerable and take necessary precautions than to go “where angels fear to tread.”

3. Engage in life as fully as possible, yet be mindful and aware, attuned to the moment, and prepared to disengage and think critically when necessary – people are generally good and trustworthy, but others make their careers as “influence professionals” who try to get you to do what they want.

4. Be aware of Cialdini’s contexts and principles of compliance; when you sense you are operating on one of the principles, look to the relevant context being manipulated on you and pull back; where the context is obvious, expect the principle to be activated.

5. Be ready to say the three most difficult phrases in the world: “I was wrong”, “I made a mistake”, and “I’ve changed my mind.” Cut bait, accept immediate loss of money, face, etc. that could lead to bigger long term losses – Dissonance and consistency then go limp in the face of such self-honesty.

6. Separate your ego from your actions; maintain a sense of positive self-esteem, that is independent form the occasional failure and your stupid actions at times (Laugh at yourself once a day. This is especially true for shy folks.)

7. Separate messenger from message in your mind, process each systematically not heuristically, be aware of being tired, a “cognitive miser,” wanting simple short cuts, giving in to non-verbal tricks. There are no free lunches and no quick and dirty paths to anything worthwhile – sloth and greed breed gullibility.

8. Insist on a second opinion, a delay in signing contract while thinking about it away from the situation; never immediately sign on the dotted line.

9. Develop ‘Discrepancy Detectors,’ alerting mental and intuition systems that stem from vague feelings of something wrong, something in the situation or the story you are being handed that does not fit to analysis to counteraction -> dissent -> disobedience.

10. Try playing devil’s advocate, be the deviant, to assess the reactions against you and that position, when the influence agent says he/she is only doing X for your good.

11. Avoid ‘Total Situations’ where you lose contact with your social support and informational networks (cults and the most powerful forces of social influence thrive there), you do not want all your reinforcers to come from these new sources.

12. In all authority confrontations: be polite, individuate yourself and the other, make it clear it is not “your problem” in the process, or situation; describe the problem objectively, do not get emotional, state clearly the remedy sought, and the positive consequences expected – hold off on the threats and costs to them or their agency as last resort.

13. When in some situation of authority encounter, you are being challenged – ask for identification, demand to see it, get person’s name (write it down) and all details about the encounter.

14. Never allow yourself to be cut off emotionally from your familiar and trusted reference groups of family, friends, neighbors, co-workers – do not accept putdowns against them.

15. Remember all ideologies are just words, abstractions used for particular political, social, economic purposes; be wary taking actions proposed as necessary to sustain that ideology – always question if the means justify the ends, and suggest alternatives.

16. Think hard before putting abstract principles before real people in following other’s advice to act in specific ways against what they represent.

17. Trust your intuition, gut feelings when you sense you are becoming a target of influence, put up your counter-arguing mentality, and dig down for sources for resistance.

18. Rules are abstractions for controlling behavior and eliciting compliance and conformity – challenge them when necessary: ask, who made the rule? What purpose does it serve? Who maintains it? Does it make sense in this specific situation? What happens if you violate it? Insist that the rule be made explicit, so it cannot be modified and altered over time to suit the influence agent.

19. When developing causal attributions for unusual behavior – yours or others – never rush to the dispositional, always start by considering possible situational forces and variables that are the true causal agent, and seek to highlight them and to change them where possible.

20. Imagine Dr. Z as your conscience, your personal Jiminy Cricket (from Pinocchio) sitting on your shoulder and saying be cool, be confident, be collected—to avoid becoming a Jack Ass.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2007 09:39AM by apostate.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Jack Oskar Larm ()
Date: December 28, 2007 10:52AM

Thanks for list, Apostate. If you don't mind, I'll stick this on one of the LGAT threads.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: December 28, 2007 03:19PM

I've been wondering about that image on the top of most JC web site pages, the one of money burning. It looks like a high quality commercial photograph.

That's because it is. It's a copywrite image created by Bob Bauer, for of all things, a Credit Union brochure!!!

You can see it here,


where he says:

"Brochure Cover for Credit Union. Headline: "Have You Got Money To Burn?" Referring to all of the extra charges that you must pay with a bank."

He also says:

"All Photographs are Copyright © Bob Bauer 1999 and cannot be used
for any purpose without the express written permission of Bob Bauer or his agents or assigns."

Not suggesting that David McKay and the Jesus Christians don't have that written permission, of course, but his email address is up there on the page if anyone cares to email him to ask him if he did, indeed, give written permission for a high-demand cult to use his image all over their web site.

Judging by how he describes his own values and lifestyle on his web site, I don't think it is very compatible with the JC's. Here's Bob's page of links to sites he likes!!! Hahaha. Sounds like my kind of guy!


So the anti-money (sort of) JC's are using an image created for a Credit Union eh?

Funny. Anyone care to email Bob?


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: December 28, 2007 05:04PM

Anyone care to capture some pages off the Jesus Christians web site, without live internet links, in a format that shows that the web pages have been up there for ages, and send them to Bob? I've saved some, but I'm not that savvy to know what format to save them in. Might be a good idea in case the JC's decide they'd rather not get their pants sued off, and suddenly pull the image down.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2007 05:05PM by Blackhat.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: December 28, 2007 05:15PM


Design a new logo for the JC's web site and post it here.


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Blackhat ()
Date: December 28, 2007 06:43PM


"We were looking for something which illustrated our outlook on life, and it was a web site for the Jesus Christians that someone who wasn't me was doing, and well, we all thought that image summed it up....and she knew how to do it......

I had nothing to do with the choice of icon............."

Conversation soon to be had!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Dogmother ()
Date: December 28, 2007 09:15PM

Blackhat, thank you so much. That's indeed a brilliant "discovery" you shared with us. I'm most impressed.

I have not yet had time to return to what I was writing about, (Reinhard) but I will soon.

Apostate, thank you so much for the nice posts about my daughter. She is a decent person and a leader in all of her undertakings. (Comes from a long line of strong women on both sides of her ancestry.)

My daughter will make good use of her bad experience with Dave and so will my grandchildren.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2007 09:18PM by Dogmother.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Dogmother ()
Date: December 28, 2007 09:39PM

My husband and I were quite amused over our morning coffee....reading about the Credit Union.

He--my husband--quipped that SPANGEBOB SQUAREPANTS may be a good imagination is working in overdrive. I can already see the new logo....SpangeDave....

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