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You might also consider this:
The way in which you have responded to any questioning or criticism of AA is alarmingly similar to the methods by which other organizations, those considered "harmful", defend themselves from allegations of abuse or "cultishness".

Have you considered that your ax to grind with AA is "alarmingly similar" to religious persecution?

You [b:2cdee31294]assume[/b:2cdee31294] that when someone, anyone criticizes organizations of a religious or spiritual nature, branding them as cults, that the accuser is always right and immune to criticisms. My rebuttal to your characterizations are portrayed as [i:2cdee31294]a cult member just defending the cult.[/i:2cdee31294]

This dynamic which you have constructed, with parameters that you define leaves me handicapped from the outset to defend your accusations.

When I do respond I'm just a cult member with answers to everything.


I went back through some of the "Orange Papers" and was reminded of AA saying that alcoholics are an extreme example of "self will run riot though they usually don't think so," For someone to commit that much time to a[b:2cdee31294] negative assault[/b:2cdee31294] on the program of AA epitomizes self will run riot.


Here is my reply to the dark motives behind the Orange Papers:

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring--these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle--these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth".

Colter


Colter

colter:

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Have you considered that your ax to grind with AA is "alarmingly similar" to [b:43cca6d924]religious[/b:43cca6d924] persecution?

[b:43cca6d924]You assume[/b:43cca6d924] that when someone, anyone criticizes organizations of a religious or spiritual nature, branding them as cults, that the accuser is always right and immune to criticisms.

These statement are [b:43cca6d924]not sane[/b:43cca6d924].
How do you know what I "assume"?
You are making a blanket statement presuming to know what I think.

You have accused me of misrepresenting AA by relating stories of AA predation, which have been validated, [b:43cca6d924]on this thread[/b:43cca6d924], by references to AA awareness of same.
[www.guardian.co.uk]

You have hinted that you suspect I am a therapist, which is not the case.

You have made insulting statements that suggest that I and others are alcoholics who have not attempted to or succeeded to "work the steps" properly.

You have attempted to discredit me by insinuating that I am part of a "secular conspiracy".

And now you suggest that I am guilty of[b:43cca6d924] religious[/b:43cca6d924] persecution?

I'm sorry, but didn't you previously write that [b:43cca6d924]AA is not religious, but spiritual?[/b:43cca6d924] That AA's goal is to help the alcoholic achieve sobriety, and that atheism is allowed in AA?

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This dynamic which you have constructed, with parameters that you define leaves me handicapped from the outset to defend your accusations.

If you are indeed handicapped in this debate, it is by the weakness of your argument and the fact that [b:43cca6d924]you feel it necessary to resort to deceitful tactics and personal insult to attempt to strengthen your position[/b:43cca6d924].
(It isn't working, by the way.)

I have asked for some substantiation of your claims. You have given none, other than sermons from the "sacred text", (the big book), a "doctor's opinion" written in 1934, and some quotes that you have not referenced, most of which were[b:43cca6d924] intended to discredit those of us who criticize AA, and have nothing to do with the issues[/b:43cca6d924].

I am not posting here for your benefit, nor am I asking questions of you about AA.
It has become evident that the only responses you are capable of to any criticism of AA are [b:43cca6d924]personal attacks[/b:43cca6d924] on those posting the criticisms.
I have found it impossible to have any kind of meaningful exchange with you, as you obviously cannot engage in debate or discussion without "[b:43cca6d924]hitting below the belt[/b:43cca6d924]".

In a word, you [b:43cca6d924]cheat[/b:43cca6d924].

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Here is my reply to the dark motives behind the Orange Papers:

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. [b:43cca6d924]Evil[/color:43cca6d924][/b:43cca6d924] is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth.

Prove it.
Prove that I am misrepresenting the facts.
Prove that our allegations are a "premeditated perversion of the truth".
[b:43cca6d924]Prove that I (and others here) are "evil"[/color:43cca6d924].[/b:43cca6d924]

AA often tries to claim it is not a religion, but look how soaked in religious language and mentions of God Colter's arguments are.

And now he contradicts himself completely and says 12-steppers should have freedom of religion.

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Have you considered that your ax to grind with AA is "alarmingly similar" to religious persecution?

Where have I heard that thinking before? Oh yes, in terms of others that are involved in/defend 'cult-like' organizations.

As I have said, I am religious so my problems with XA have nothing to do with that. My problems have to do with the fact the most recent studies have shown it is less than effective and that I felt as if I was being brought into a 'cult-like' group.

My problems have to do with the fact I felt I was being brainwashed, and that some XA members admit it. I've heard this more than once: If XA is doing brainwashing, then my brain must need a good washing.

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You assume that when someone, anyone criticizes organizations of a religious or spiritual nature, branding them as cults, that the accuser is always right and immune to criticisms. My rebuttal to your characterizations are portrayed as a cult member just defending the cult.

Wrongo. When someone critizizes a religion I don't belong to, I don't automatically think "oooh cult!". In fact, I personally don't think the LDS church is a cult although I don't agree with them.

I didn't think my religious beliefs had anything to do with a discussion of the ills of AA.

After all, AA is not a religion, is it?

My religious beliefs,( and yes, I do have them), are my own concern.

I do not believe that the courts, the psychiatrists, AA, or the people on this forum have the right to pry into my spiritual beliefs and attempt to change them.

(ps. I was raised in a protestant church, and never had any objections to it.
I went to bible school, and liked it.)

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kath
AA often tries to claim it is not a religion, but look how soaked in religious language and mentions of God Colter's arguments are.

And now he contradicts himself completely and says 12-steppers should have freedom of religion.

AA is centered on faith in God as that is defined by the individual. It has similarities to religion in it's customs but no stated orthodox doctrine.

Weather one considers it a religion, a spiritual fellowship or a self help group, persecution of it's members by referring to us as "predators" or "indoctrinated cult members" is persecution:

1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; [u:b9d2c9be29]specifically[/u:b9d2c9be29] : to cause to suffer because of belief.

The slant of this thread is not to inform but is rather mean spirited in it's characterization of AA as a destructive organization populated by predators and actually causing the mental illness that AA members spend countless millions of man hours trying to assist with.

There is nothing at all wrong with someone seeking help outside of AA for drinking or any other problem but that is not enough for those bomb throwers who feel the need to trash AA on the way out the dour.


Colter

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In a word, you cheat.
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Here is my reply to the dark motives behind the Orange Papers:

"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth.

Prove it.
Prove that I am misrepresenting the facts.
Prove that our allegations are a "premeditated perversion of the truth".
Prove that I (and others here) are "evil".

Barbara,

That was my respose to the guy at Orange Papers. I relplyed to that becaue you have sourced it and then made mention that I don't reply to your posted materil.

I was not dirrecting that at you but rather I think that the Orange Paper guy is Evil.

You seem to be reading something into my post that isn't there, I'm not makeing any personal attacs on you.

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(ps. I was raised in a protestant church, and never had any objections to it.
I went to bible school, and liked it.)

That being the case why do you have so much objection to the AA program, it is chock full of the teachings of Jesus.


Colter

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That being the case why do you have so much objection to the AA program, it is chock full of the teachings of Jesus.

Read my previous posts for the answer to your question.

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The slant of this thread is not to inform but is rather mean spirited in it's characterization of AA as a destructive organization populated by predators and actually causing the mental illness that AA members spend countless millions of man hours trying to assist with.

[www.guardian.co.uk]
The infamous memo.

Even AA admits that their are predators among its ranks.
It just doesn't do so [b:5724d6210f]publicly[/b:5724d6210f], and, (to judge from the reactions of members like colter when other do bring this to the attention of the public), AA does not like it when the public becomes aware of this fact.

If you talk about bad things that go on at meetings or afterwards among AA members, you might be accused of "religious persecution".

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barabara

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That being the case why do you have so much objection to the AA program, it is chock full of the teachings of Jesus.

Read my previous posts for the answer to your question.

I don't get it???

Were basically doing in AA what Jesus taught his followers to do.....but we would avoid the turning of water into wine. :lol:

Colter

Jesus said that the only way to reach God was through him.

Are you saying that the only way to reach God is through AA?

Or are you saying that AA teaches that the only way to reach God is through Jesus?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

I thought AA was about staying sober.

So, is AA religious, after all?