Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 24, 2006 10:11AM
Quote
dwest
I agree that one size fits all does not work. But bring up SOS or SMART in an AA/NA/Al-Anon meeting and all heck breaks loose. You get those looks at you like "poor newbie doesn't get it". Some members may outright tell you that they are giving up on you.
It is very sad that the XA programs can not admit there are other 'truths' out there, and that people are different.
It is true that "one size does not fit all", that is why AA has no standard doctrine of the divine. AA members may chose their concept of a higher power.
Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good. Self delusion is a common characteristic of those with addictive behavior.
Some of the so called "alternative groups" that have sprung up have as a foundation an anti AA theme making them "reactionary" as apposed to positive and open minded. They will make a great dour way into AA providing a progressive path to the true bottom.
Try mentioning AA in a RR meeting. In 20 years of recovery I have NEVER heard any of the other programs mentioned in AA much less in a negative light. There is however a young gentleman that is a member of my home group who joined the "AA is a cult",cult and eventually drank for 2 years. He has since returned to AA and is now able to laugh at the manifestation of his hypochondria which sent him out into the paranoid wilderness.
If one can convince a horse thief to stop drinking then what you get is a sober horse thief. AA may not be the only "way" to get sober but any regiment that does not include the alcoholic getting honest and facing those he or she has hurt has scant chance for success.
The hard truth is that very few alcoholics get sober and very few stay sober the rest of their lives. AA has been profoundly successful, this simply cannot be denied.
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 24, 2006 10:17AM
[b:3d971cfcaa]The Doctors Opinion[/b:3d971cfcaa]
Alocoholics Anonymous.
The doctor writes:
"The subject presented in this book seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction.
I say this after many years' experience as Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction.
There was, therefore, a sense of real satisfaction when I was asked to contribute a few words on a subject which is covered in such masterly detail in these pages.
We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics, but its application presented difficulties beyond our conception. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge.
Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book came under our care in this hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical application at once.
Later, he requested the privilege of being allowed to tell his story to other patients here and with some misgiving, we consented. The cases we have followed through have been most interesting; in fact, many of them are amazing. The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them, the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit, is indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this alcoholic field. They believe in themselves, and still more in the Power which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of death.
Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.
We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.
Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.
If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cyni cal will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.
Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal: "Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I must stop, but I cannot! You must help me!"
Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach.
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight.
The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision.
There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could be written.
Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people.
All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
This immediately precipitates us into a seething caldron of debate. Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed.
What is the solution? Perhaps I can best answer this by relating one of my experiences.
About one year prior to this experience a man was brought in to be treated for chronic alcoholism. He had but partially recovered from a gastric hemorrhage and seemed to be a case of pathological mental deterioration. He had lost everything worth while in life and was only living, one might say, to drink. He frankly admitted and believed that for him there was no hope. Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury. He accepted the plan outlined in this book. One year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange sensation. I knew the man by name, and partly recognized his features, but there all resemblance ended. From a trembling, despairing, nervous wreck, had emerged a man brimming over with self-reliance and contentment. I talked with him for some time, but was not able to bring myself to feel that I had known him before. To me he was a stranger, and so he left me. A long time has passed with no return to alcohol.
When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a physician prominent in New York City. The patient had made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn determined to die. He was rescued by a searching party, and, in desperate condition, brought to me. Following his physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort, unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in the future he would have the "will power" to resist the impulse to drink.
His alcoholic problem was so complex, and his depression so great, that we felt his only hope would be through what we then called "moral psychology," and we doubted if even that would have any effect.
However, he did become "sold" on the ideas contained in this book. He has not had a drink for a great many years. I see him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of manhood as one could wish to meet.
I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."
Colter
Alocoholics Anonymous.
The doctor writes:
"The subject presented in this book seems to me to be of paramount importance to those afflicted with alcoholic addiction.
I say this after many years' experience as Medical Director of one of the oldest hospitals in the country treating alcoholic and drug addiction.
There was, therefore, a sense of real satisfaction when I was asked to contribute a few words on a subject which is covered in such masterly detail in these pages.
We doctors have realized for a long time that some form of moral psychology was of urgent importance to alcoholics, but its application presented difficulties beyond our conception. What with our ultra-modern standards, our scientific approach to everything, we are perhaps not well equipped to apply the powers of good that lie outside our synthetic knowledge.
Many years ago one of the leading contributors to this book came under our care in this hospital and while here he acquired some ideas which he put into practical application at once.
Later, he requested the privilege of being allowed to tell his story to other patients here and with some misgiving, we consented. The cases we have followed through have been most interesting; in fact, many of them are amazing. The unselfishness of these men as we have come to know them, the entire absence of profit motive, and their community spirit, is indeed inspiring to one who has labored long and wearily in this alcoholic field. They believe in themselves, and still more in the Power which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of death.
Of course an alcoholic ought to be freed from his physical craving for liquor, and this often requires a definite hospital procedure, before psychological measures can be of maximum benefit.
We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they cannot break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to solve.
Frothy emotional appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these alcoholic people must have depth and weight. In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.
If any feel that as psychiatrists directing a hospital for alcoholics we appear somewhat sentimental, let them stand with us a while on the firing line, see the tragedies, the despairing wives, the little children; let the solving of these problems become a part of their daily work, and even of their sleeping moments, and the most cyni cal will not wonder that we have accepted and encouraged this movement. We feel, after many years of experience, that we have found nothing which has contributed more to the rehabilitation of these men than the altruistic movement now growing up among them.
Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery.
On the other hand-and strange as this may seem to those who do not understand-once a psychic change has occurred, the very same person who seemed doomed, who had so many problems he despaired of ever solving them, suddenly finds himself easily able to control his desire for alcohol, the only effort necessary being that required to follow a few simple rules.
Men have cried out to me in sincere and despairing appeal: "Doctor, I cannot go on like this! I have everything to live for! I must stop, but I cannot! You must help me!"
Faced with this problem, if a doctor is honest with himself, he must sometimes feel his own inadequacy. Although he gives all that is in him, it often is not enough. One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change. Though the aggregate of recoveries resulting from psychiatric effort is considerable, we physicians must admit we have made little impression upon the problem as a whole. Many types do not respond to the ordinary psychological approach.
I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight.
The classification of alcoholics seems most difficult, and in much detail is outside the scope of this book. There are, of course, the psychopaths who are emotionally unstable. We are all familiar with this type. They are always "going on the wagon for keeps." They are over-remorseful and make many resolutions, but never a decision.
There is the type of man who is unwilling to admit that he cannot take a drink. He plans various ways of drinking. He changes his brand or his environment. There is the type who always believes that after being entirely free from alcohol for a period of time he can take a drink without danger. There is the manic-depressive type, who is, perhaps, the least understood by his friends, and about whom a whole chapter could be written.
Then there are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people.
All these, and many others, have one symptom in common: they cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity. It has never been, by any treatment with which we are familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
This immediately precipitates us into a seething caldron of debate. Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed.
What is the solution? Perhaps I can best answer this by relating one of my experiences.
About one year prior to this experience a man was brought in to be treated for chronic alcoholism. He had but partially recovered from a gastric hemorrhage and seemed to be a case of pathological mental deterioration. He had lost everything worth while in life and was only living, one might say, to drink. He frankly admitted and believed that for him there was no hope. Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury. He accepted the plan outlined in this book. One year later he called to see me, and I experienced a very strange sensation. I knew the man by name, and partly recognized his features, but there all resemblance ended. From a trembling, despairing, nervous wreck, had emerged a man brimming over with self-reliance and contentment. I talked with him for some time, but was not able to bring myself to feel that I had known him before. To me he was a stranger, and so he left me. A long time has passed with no return to alcohol.
When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a physician prominent in New York City. The patient had made his own diagnosis, and deciding his situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn determined to die. He was rescued by a searching party, and, in desperate condition, brought to me. Following his physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort, unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in the future he would have the "will power" to resist the impulse to drink.
His alcoholic problem was so complex, and his depression so great, that we felt his only hope would be through what we then called "moral psychology," and we doubted if even that would have any effect.
However, he did become "sold" on the ideas contained in this book. He has not had a drink for a great many years. I see him now and then and he is as fine a specimen of manhood as one could wish to meet.
I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through, and though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 24, 2006 12:56PM
It is of interest to note that those who wish to question the doctrine of AA and the behavior of its members have chosen to do so primarily through the use of anecdote, relating personal experience, and citing scientific research by people with credentials.
In return, these people have been accused of fabrication, have been labeled with various personality defects, have been slandered, and have otherwise been attacked not on the basis of the facts presented, but by [b:45c25d79ff]character assassination.[/b:45c25d79ff]
[b:45c25d79ff]This is a common technique used by cults (and other groups) in an attempt to silence detractors and discredit information that that do not wish others to know.[/b:45c25d79ff]
You can read these kinds of ad-hominem arguments and slanderous attacks on any of the other cult topics. The defenses used to discredit those who speak out by those who are adherents of the various cults are remarkably similar.
Calling someone insane, or evil, or attributing to them some devious reason for posting the information they choose to relate does not discredit said information. [b:45c25d79ff]It merely points out the inability of the person making the slanderous accusations to engage is civilized debate, and supports the premise that there are those in AA who would indeed make of it a cult.[/b:45c25d79ff]
As to "the doctor's opinion", it was written, if I am not mistaken, in the first half of the 20th century, during the 1930s.
Certainly no educated, or indeed even sane person, would deny that great strides were made in the practice of medicine over the latter half of the 20th century. Widespread use of antibiotics, for instance, did not come into practice until the 1950s, after which time many lives were saved.
[b:45c25d79ff]Shall we then take the writings of Dr. Silkworth, written in 1934, as the last word in research and medical practice for the problem of Alcoholism? [/b:45c25d79ff]Well, that's what many AA members would have us do.
This is one glaring way in which AA resembles a cult; the sacred text has been written, the sacred leaders chosen, the sacred instructions should be viewed as inviolable.
As to the "spiritual solution", medical and scientific research do not support the existence of a [b:45c25d79ff]moral[/b:45c25d79ff] cause for alcoholism.
As I posted previously, there is much disagreement as to whether or not an "alcoholic personality type" even exists. Whether the alcoholic is more "immoral" than the non-alcoholic is highly debatable.
Not all AA members are determined to make of AA a cult.[b:45c25d79ff] There are those who view it as a social support system rather than the revelation of God's word.[/b:45c25d79ff] These types do not feel the need to defend the alleged sacred perfection of the program at the expense of the truth.
Unfortunately, it is the fundamentalists who are generally the most vocal in the defense of AA.[b:45c25d79ff] That so why criticism of AA is so often viewed as heresy, and those who question its doctrines as blasphemers.[/b:45c25d79ff]
In return, these people have been accused of fabrication, have been labeled with various personality defects, have been slandered, and have otherwise been attacked not on the basis of the facts presented, but by [b:45c25d79ff]character assassination.[/b:45c25d79ff]
[b:45c25d79ff]This is a common technique used by cults (and other groups) in an attempt to silence detractors and discredit information that that do not wish others to know.[/b:45c25d79ff]
You can read these kinds of ad-hominem arguments and slanderous attacks on any of the other cult topics. The defenses used to discredit those who speak out by those who are adherents of the various cults are remarkably similar.
Calling someone insane, or evil, or attributing to them some devious reason for posting the information they choose to relate does not discredit said information. [b:45c25d79ff]It merely points out the inability of the person making the slanderous accusations to engage is civilized debate, and supports the premise that there are those in AA who would indeed make of it a cult.[/b:45c25d79ff]
As to "the doctor's opinion", it was written, if I am not mistaken, in the first half of the 20th century, during the 1930s.
Certainly no educated, or indeed even sane person, would deny that great strides were made in the practice of medicine over the latter half of the 20th century. Widespread use of antibiotics, for instance, did not come into practice until the 1950s, after which time many lives were saved.
[b:45c25d79ff]Shall we then take the writings of Dr. Silkworth, written in 1934, as the last word in research and medical practice for the problem of Alcoholism? [/b:45c25d79ff]Well, that's what many AA members would have us do.
This is one glaring way in which AA resembles a cult; the sacred text has been written, the sacred leaders chosen, the sacred instructions should be viewed as inviolable.
As to the "spiritual solution", medical and scientific research do not support the existence of a [b:45c25d79ff]moral[/b:45c25d79ff] cause for alcoholism.
As I posted previously, there is much disagreement as to whether or not an "alcoholic personality type" even exists. Whether the alcoholic is more "immoral" than the non-alcoholic is highly debatable.
Not all AA members are determined to make of AA a cult.[b:45c25d79ff] There are those who view it as a social support system rather than the revelation of God's word.[/b:45c25d79ff] These types do not feel the need to defend the alleged sacred perfection of the program at the expense of the truth.
Unfortunately, it is the fundamentalists who are generally the most vocal in the defense of AA.[b:45c25d79ff] That so why criticism of AA is so often viewed as heresy, and those who question its doctrines as blasphemers.[/b:45c25d79ff]
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 24, 2006 09:09PM
Quote
As to "the doctor's opinion", it was written, if I am not mistaken, in the first half of the 20th century, during the 1930s.
Certainly no educated, or indeed even sane person, would deny that great strides were made in the practice of medicine over the latter half of the 20th century. Widespread use of antibiotics, for instance, did not come into practice until the 1950s, after which time many lives were saved.
Shall we then take the writings of Dr. Silkworth, written in 1934, as the last word in research and medical practice for the problem of Alcoholism? Well, that's what many AA members would have us do.
This is one glaring way in which AA resembles a cult; the sacred text has been written, the sacred leaders chosen, the sacred instructions should be viewed as inviolable.
Quote
As to "the doctor's opinion", it was written, if I am not mistaken, in the first half of the 20th century, during the 1930s.
Certainly no educated, or indeed even sane person, would deny that great strides were made in the practice of medicine over the latter half of the 20th century. Widespread use of antibiotics, for instance, did not come into practice until the 1950s, after which time many lives were saved.
Shall we then take the writings of Dr. Silkworth, written in 1934, as the last word in research and medical practice for the problem of Alcoholism? Well, that's what many AA members would have us do.
This is one glaring way in which AA resembles a cult; the sacred text has been written, the sacred leaders chosen, the sacred instructions should be viewed as inviolable.
Barbara,
I have repeatedly asked you to provide examples of how the AA program is so "flawed" as you put it but you have not demonstrated anything about AA's 12 steps, or 12 traditions that would be unhealthy.
Please, Just what is the malfunction about the program that should be changed? How would you make AA a better place? Would you eliminate our faith in God and substitute faith in skepticism as a solution to alcoholism?
Show everyone here where the medical profession has come up with the cure for alcoholism?
BTW, there is nothing "sacred" about the medical profession either. All of my clients in my profession are doctors and intensely human.
As an aside for those reading this thread I have experienced the phase of AA dogmatism that Barbara speaks of. I shared it much earlier on this thread. There certainly can be people in AA that are dogmatic, overly zealous, self righteous etc......but again that's a common phase that people of many kinds of spiritual movements might go through......it is not the AA program. There are safeguards within the program to prevent "guru" or "ego driven" individuals from gaining to much power.
AA Book:
"Many alcoholics are enthusiasts. They run to extremes. At the beginning of recovery a man will take, as a rule, one of two directions. He may either plunge into a frantic attempt to get on his feet in business, or he may be so enthralled by his new life that he talks or thinks of little else.
In any given AA meeting members are welcome to share their diverse experiances with faith or doubt. We are not controled by one persons faith or skeptescism. In a Rational Recovery meeting are members encouraged to shere their diverse faith in God? their struggles with faith, and doubt?
These are the safegaurds of AA.
AA's 12 Traditions
1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends on AA unity.
2. For our group purpose there is one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
3. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.
4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.
5. Each group has but one primary purpose - to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
6. An AA group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the AA name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divery us from our primary purpose.
7. Every AA group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
9. AA, as such ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or commmittees directly responsible to those they serve.
10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the AA name ought never be drawn into controversy.
11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, and films.
12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
QuestionEverything
()
Date: July 24, 2006 11:34PM
Colter,
I agree with Barbara that there are some serious flaws with AA "doctrine." She has provided numerous links, such as orange-papers, which provide a critique of the 12-steps and, whether you agree with the critiques or not, provide support for her position. I think that if alcoholism is truly a disease as AA contends, then saying that the remedy lies in faith in God, makes about as much sense as saying that the remedy for diabetes lies in faith in God. Personally, since I value my ability to think freely and skeptically, I would never again set foot in an anonymous meeting. I do not think belief in God makes a person any more or less moral or ethical. I think AA, at the very least, is dishonest in presenting itself as a non-religious entity, when it obviously has everything to do with a religious perspective on life.
Also, your statements about secularism do not indicate that you know much about it. If you really want to know what secular humanism is about, I suggest you visit some of their websites.
QE
I agree with Barbara that there are some serious flaws with AA "doctrine." She has provided numerous links, such as orange-papers, which provide a critique of the 12-steps and, whether you agree with the critiques or not, provide support for her position. I think that if alcoholism is truly a disease as AA contends, then saying that the remedy lies in faith in God, makes about as much sense as saying that the remedy for diabetes lies in faith in God. Personally, since I value my ability to think freely and skeptically, I would never again set foot in an anonymous meeting. I do not think belief in God makes a person any more or less moral or ethical. I think AA, at the very least, is dishonest in presenting itself as a non-religious entity, when it obviously has everything to do with a religious perspective on life.
Also, your statements about secularism do not indicate that you know much about it. If you really want to know what secular humanism is about, I suggest you visit some of their websites.
QE
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 25, 2006 12:25AM
As to whether or not AA is indeed a cult, I cannot offer an opinion of my own. It depends on your definition of cult. Under some definitions it undoubtedly fits. By other definitions it may not.
If a single, living, charismatic leader were the criteria required for each harmful organization here on this forum, there would be no LGATs mentioned, and no pyramid schemes, among others.
[b:30e2ce9389]For the newcomer to this thread:[/b:30e2ce9389]
[b:30e2ce9389]I and others have previously gone into a great deal of detail about exactly why we feel the 12 steps can be interpreted in harmful ways.[/b:30e2ce9389] We have posted a variety of links to articles that support our premise.
The fact that there is a single pro-AA poster who continually avers that we have [b:30e2ce9389]not[/b:30e2ce9389] done so does not make it true. [b:30e2ce9389]Such is the power of denial.
[/b:30e2ce9389]
It is obviously so important to an AA fundamentalist big-book-thumper that critics be silenced that they are willing to follow us to a forum thread hoping to do just that and repeatedly spam the thread with assassinations to our character, false statements about us, huge assumptions as to our character and motivation, and lengthy sermons from the text in question.
[b:30e2ce9389]I am certain that the intelligent and interested reader will make note of this fact and research the organization for him/herself.[/b:30e2ce9389]
If you find the orange papers link too adversarial, there have been numerous links given to scientific and socialogical research about AA. I hope the reader will visit these links for themselves.
If a single, living, charismatic leader were the criteria required for each harmful organization here on this forum, there would be no LGATs mentioned, and no pyramid schemes, among others.
[b:30e2ce9389]For the newcomer to this thread:[/b:30e2ce9389]
[b:30e2ce9389]I and others have previously gone into a great deal of detail about exactly why we feel the 12 steps can be interpreted in harmful ways.[/b:30e2ce9389] We have posted a variety of links to articles that support our premise.
The fact that there is a single pro-AA poster who continually avers that we have [b:30e2ce9389]not[/b:30e2ce9389] done so does not make it true. [b:30e2ce9389]Such is the power of denial.
[/b:30e2ce9389]
It is obviously so important to an AA fundamentalist big-book-thumper that critics be silenced that they are willing to follow us to a forum thread hoping to do just that and repeatedly spam the thread with assassinations to our character, false statements about us, huge assumptions as to our character and motivation, and lengthy sermons from the text in question.
[b:30e2ce9389]I am certain that the intelligent and interested reader will make note of this fact and research the organization for him/herself.[/b:30e2ce9389]
If you find the orange papers link too adversarial, there have been numerous links given to scientific and socialogical research about AA. I hope the reader will visit these links for themselves.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 25, 2006 12:57AM
Hello QuestionEverything,
Barbara has [b:6c6128def8]not said specifically[/b:6c6128def8] what her position is other than AA is "flawed", AA is "manipulative", AA is a "cult". So I can't answer her questions.
Proceeding with the idea that alcoholism is a physical and mental kind of "disease", and then trusting God (as we understand God) works.
Alcoholism doesn't make sense, the problem is a riddle and the solution is a paradox.
AA is not for people who need it it is for people who want it. By all means don't go if you don't want to.
Nor does belief in the tooth ferry. The only way we can demonstrate the existence of God is in the lives that we lead.
AA has no orthodox views on God. AA has no apostles creed type or ritual compliance statement. AA is most certainly a spiritual program, it is based on seeking God as a way of life, as the solution to an incurable mental illness.
If people don't like AA because it is God centered then it's perfectly ok to say so instead of vilifying it as some kind of dangerous cult.
The word "cult" has taken on a decidedly negative connotation in the 20th century because of religious movements like Heavens Gate, Jones Town, suicide groups etc. People us the term AA cult as an insult , not as a helpful definition.
Here is the "secular tool kit" for sobriety. Many of these have been harvested from AA or at least I have heard them over the years in AA meetings.
[b:6c6128def8]SOS[/size:6c6128def8] [/b:6c6128def8]
Your Sobriety Toolkit
Tool: A means by which something is done or obtained.
Did you ever try to fix or adjust something without the proper tool? These are some tools of sobriety. There are many more. Look into the population of alcoholics and the field of alcoholism and you will find a tool for whatever needs fixing or adjusting. If you don’t find just the right tool, fashion one yourself.
No matter what — there is no valid reason on earth to drink again.
Here’s sobriety — there’s everything else — separate and prioritize sobriety.
Seriousness — this is nothing less than life or death.
Determination — there is no turning back, especially if it gets rough. You’ve gotten another chance at life. How many really have that chance? Sobriety doesn’t fix everything, but it makes it possible.
Information — retrain your brain; stimulate it with things related to alcoholism: books, audiotapes, videotapes, movies, pamphlets, brochures, meetings, plays, television and radio, newspapers and magazine articles, etc.
People — human contact is powerful. Try to meet people, at least one, and be sure to meet other alcoholics. Interaction fights the old patterns of isolation.
Honesty — this is the time to get things into the open. Get rid of the shadows and darknesses of the past. Put light on the dark things and they lose their power. Things can be dealt with reasonably when they’re seen as they truly are.
Listening — especially to people with long-term sobriety.
Take notes — anytime; but especially in early sobriety when memory can be tricky.
Meetings — be with people who want better lives and are taking actions to get what they want. Meetings are a good place to establish or re-establish social skills in a supportive environment. There is a lot to learn and feel in a meeting. You are not alone. You have not done the worst or been the most; there are always those who have ‘bettered’ you. Think about what you hear and see, but better yet is to feel what you hear and see at meetings.
Folk wisdom and slogans — don’t underestimate them.
Commitments — if you make them, keep them. You show yourself and others a lot by doing so.
Personal ‘program’ — develop your own recovery process from what you hear and see. It has to be what works for you, not anybody else.
Sharing — surprisingly therapeutic when done honestly. Free yourself from holding things in.
Phones — get plenty of phone numbers of other alcoholics and use them.
Willingness — allow yourself to change. You have nothing to lose.
Openness — Don’t reject ideas without at least considering them.
Approachability — isolation can be deadly.
Ask questions — no matter how foolish you think they seem. Never be afraid to ask other alcoholics about things.
Nutrition — improve it any way you can.
Exercise — however little, even just moving around.
Help other alcoholics — you really can keep it by giving it away.
Joy — it’s great to be alive and sober.
Perceptions — it’s all real, not diluted or distorted. A keen, rich mind versus a drugged, limited mind.
Easily obtainable goals — success breeds more success. Reach for the moon later.
Call-up — remember, visualize, and image behaviors and incidents from your drinking days that are repellent and associated with alcohol. Replace ‘alcohol good’ with ‘alcohol bad’. This is especially useful when you feel seduced by alcohol or cocksure about sobriety.
Live in the present — visits to the past are okay, but don’t freeze your life there.
Abstinence — the only sure way to stay sober. Any statement to the contrary is hypothesis or commentary. Don’t drink, no matter what.
Avoid ‘slippery’ places, people and things — reinforce ‘alcohol bad’ by avoiding the places, people and things you associate with ‘alcohol good.’ If you can’t avoid, you must be aware that they are dangerous to your sobriety and proceed with caution.
Safeguard your sobriety — don’t be concerned with what others think of how you do it. Don’t be embarrassed if what you need to do to stay sober is ‘un-adult,’ ‘uncool,’ ‘weak,’ or ‘stupid’ in the opinion of others. You are rebuilding and recreating yourself. You want to own your life, not be a slave to alcohol. It’s your life and your sobriety. Try to avoid things like homicide and robbery as tools to keep you sober, but be as flexible as you can in using whatever it takes to safeguard your sobriety. Be aware.
Acceptance — of your alcoholism. Think of the things you used to do that were related to alcohol and the need to drink. Were they normal? Does anyone but an alcoholic do these things? Know that you are an alcoholic like someone with diabetes or allergies knows his or her reality. Don’t be ashamed, be aware.
Fear — use it if you get it. Don’t live in fear, but use it. The same goes for horror, shame, regret or any other negative thoughts or feelings that may come when you think about your drinking days. Don’t stifle or deny these states of mind. Use them as tools to reinforce yourself, not stumbling blocks.
Watch for tools — everything can be a tool to help maintain sobriety. Train your mind to see and hear tools. Don’t doublethink yourself. If it works for you, use it. If you feel it may work for you, try it. You are fighting for your life, nothing less. You are the owner of your life. You are responsible for the caretaking of your life and you have decided to find better ways to live. Other people have gone before you and put together their own ‘tool kits.’ Ask them to share.
Do it now — procrastination is an anti-tool, feeding the negative and working against self-esteem.
Credit yourself — for your attainment and maintenance of sobriety. Others may have helped, but you did it.
Enjoy life — you can be dead any time. Drinking is slow suicide. Life is a banquet. Depth, complexity, the full fabric of life is yours to experience. The blinders and mufflers are off. Think of yourself as a child occasionally. Experience wonder and intensity.
It’s right — when you are sober, you feel ‘in your spine’ that it is right. Believe your guts on this when the feeling comes.
Care about yourself — things you do for yourself tell you at a gut level that you care about yourself. You have the option to make things bad or good for yourself.
Alcohol is not a tool — everything you were able to do under alcohol’s influence came from between your ears. Don’t think you are less creative, a lousy dancer, etc.
Remind yourself — even when you think you have ‘got it,’ remind yourself. Never again. Keep it fresh.
Imagery — for example, be mad at alcohol. Hate it for what it has done to you and those you care about. Being free of a horrible nightmare, knowing you are sober, is far better than the relief of waking from a bad dream. You were running on empty; as your drinking progressed, you were getting closer to the end of your life.
Make concepts real — if you are having a bad day, start it over, anytime, any number of times.
Visualize — for example, drunk living is wimp living.
Expect good things — they happen when we expect them. Mindset in a positive light gets us to perceive positive, helpful things rather than negative, destructive things.
Interrupt negative thoughts — identify them as ‘drinking thinking’ or some such. Change them, turn them around, obliterate them.
Look at drunks — especially when they are trying to pass as sober. Listen to what they are saying. Is that a wonderful life?
Action — no matter how small it seems.
Very best wishes to those who choose sobriety and life. If you really want to get and stay sober, there are people who will help you. You will be truly surprised at the lengths to which people will go to help you when you are for real.
Colter[/quote]
Quote
I agree with Barbara that there are some serious flaws with AA "doctrine." She has provided numerous links, such as orange-papers, which provide a critique of the 12-steps and, whether you agree with the critiques or not, provide support for her position.
Barbara has [b:6c6128def8]not said specifically[/b:6c6128def8] what her position is other than AA is "flawed", AA is "manipulative", AA is a "cult". So I can't answer her questions.
Quote
I think that if alcoholism is truly a disease as AA contends, then saying that the remedy lies in faith in God, makes about as much sense as saying that the remedy for diabetes lies in faith in God.
Proceeding with the idea that alcoholism is a physical and mental kind of "disease", and then trusting God (as we understand God) works.
Alcoholism doesn't make sense, the problem is a riddle and the solution is a paradox.
Quote
Personally, since I value my ability to think freely and skeptically, I would never again set foot in an anonymous meeting.
AA is not for people who need it it is for people who want it. By all means don't go if you don't want to.
Quote
I do not think belief in God makes a person any more or less moral or ethical.
Nor does belief in the tooth ferry. The only way we can demonstrate the existence of God is in the lives that we lead.
Quote
I think AA, at the very least, is dishonest in presenting itself as a non-religious entity, when it obviously has everything to do with a religious perspective on life.
AA has no orthodox views on God. AA has no apostles creed type or ritual compliance statement. AA is most certainly a spiritual program, it is based on seeking God as a way of life, as the solution to an incurable mental illness.
If people don't like AA because it is God centered then it's perfectly ok to say so instead of vilifying it as some kind of dangerous cult.
The word "cult" has taken on a decidedly negative connotation in the 20th century because of religious movements like Heavens Gate, Jones Town, suicide groups etc. People us the term AA cult as an insult , not as a helpful definition.
Quote
Also, your statements about secularism do not indicate that you know much about it. If you really want to know what secular humanism is about, I suggest you visit some of their websites.
Here is the "secular tool kit" for sobriety. Many of these have been harvested from AA or at least I have heard them over the years in AA meetings.
[b:6c6128def8]SOS[/size:6c6128def8] [/b:6c6128def8]
Your Sobriety Toolkit
Tool: A means by which something is done or obtained.
Did you ever try to fix or adjust something without the proper tool? These are some tools of sobriety. There are many more. Look into the population of alcoholics and the field of alcoholism and you will find a tool for whatever needs fixing or adjusting. If you don’t find just the right tool, fashion one yourself.
No matter what — there is no valid reason on earth to drink again.
Here’s sobriety — there’s everything else — separate and prioritize sobriety.
Seriousness — this is nothing less than life or death.
Determination — there is no turning back, especially if it gets rough. You’ve gotten another chance at life. How many really have that chance? Sobriety doesn’t fix everything, but it makes it possible.
Information — retrain your brain; stimulate it with things related to alcoholism: books, audiotapes, videotapes, movies, pamphlets, brochures, meetings, plays, television and radio, newspapers and magazine articles, etc.
People — human contact is powerful. Try to meet people, at least one, and be sure to meet other alcoholics. Interaction fights the old patterns of isolation.
Honesty — this is the time to get things into the open. Get rid of the shadows and darknesses of the past. Put light on the dark things and they lose their power. Things can be dealt with reasonably when they’re seen as they truly are.
Listening — especially to people with long-term sobriety.
Take notes — anytime; but especially in early sobriety when memory can be tricky.
Meetings — be with people who want better lives and are taking actions to get what they want. Meetings are a good place to establish or re-establish social skills in a supportive environment. There is a lot to learn and feel in a meeting. You are not alone. You have not done the worst or been the most; there are always those who have ‘bettered’ you. Think about what you hear and see, but better yet is to feel what you hear and see at meetings.
Folk wisdom and slogans — don’t underestimate them.
Commitments — if you make them, keep them. You show yourself and others a lot by doing so.
Personal ‘program’ — develop your own recovery process from what you hear and see. It has to be what works for you, not anybody else.
Sharing — surprisingly therapeutic when done honestly. Free yourself from holding things in.
Phones — get plenty of phone numbers of other alcoholics and use them.
Willingness — allow yourself to change. You have nothing to lose.
Openness — Don’t reject ideas without at least considering them.
Approachability — isolation can be deadly.
Ask questions — no matter how foolish you think they seem. Never be afraid to ask other alcoholics about things.
Nutrition — improve it any way you can.
Exercise — however little, even just moving around.
Help other alcoholics — you really can keep it by giving it away.
Joy — it’s great to be alive and sober.
Perceptions — it’s all real, not diluted or distorted. A keen, rich mind versus a drugged, limited mind.
Easily obtainable goals — success breeds more success. Reach for the moon later.
Call-up — remember, visualize, and image behaviors and incidents from your drinking days that are repellent and associated with alcohol. Replace ‘alcohol good’ with ‘alcohol bad’. This is especially useful when you feel seduced by alcohol or cocksure about sobriety.
Live in the present — visits to the past are okay, but don’t freeze your life there.
Abstinence — the only sure way to stay sober. Any statement to the contrary is hypothesis or commentary. Don’t drink, no matter what.
Avoid ‘slippery’ places, people and things — reinforce ‘alcohol bad’ by avoiding the places, people and things you associate with ‘alcohol good.’ If you can’t avoid, you must be aware that they are dangerous to your sobriety and proceed with caution.
Safeguard your sobriety — don’t be concerned with what others think of how you do it. Don’t be embarrassed if what you need to do to stay sober is ‘un-adult,’ ‘uncool,’ ‘weak,’ or ‘stupid’ in the opinion of others. You are rebuilding and recreating yourself. You want to own your life, not be a slave to alcohol. It’s your life and your sobriety. Try to avoid things like homicide and robbery as tools to keep you sober, but be as flexible as you can in using whatever it takes to safeguard your sobriety. Be aware.
Acceptance — of your alcoholism. Think of the things you used to do that were related to alcohol and the need to drink. Were they normal? Does anyone but an alcoholic do these things? Know that you are an alcoholic like someone with diabetes or allergies knows his or her reality. Don’t be ashamed, be aware.
Fear — use it if you get it. Don’t live in fear, but use it. The same goes for horror, shame, regret or any other negative thoughts or feelings that may come when you think about your drinking days. Don’t stifle or deny these states of mind. Use them as tools to reinforce yourself, not stumbling blocks.
Watch for tools — everything can be a tool to help maintain sobriety. Train your mind to see and hear tools. Don’t doublethink yourself. If it works for you, use it. If you feel it may work for you, try it. You are fighting for your life, nothing less. You are the owner of your life. You are responsible for the caretaking of your life and you have decided to find better ways to live. Other people have gone before you and put together their own ‘tool kits.’ Ask them to share.
Do it now — procrastination is an anti-tool, feeding the negative and working against self-esteem.
Credit yourself — for your attainment and maintenance of sobriety. Others may have helped, but you did it.
Enjoy life — you can be dead any time. Drinking is slow suicide. Life is a banquet. Depth, complexity, the full fabric of life is yours to experience. The blinders and mufflers are off. Think of yourself as a child occasionally. Experience wonder and intensity.
It’s right — when you are sober, you feel ‘in your spine’ that it is right. Believe your guts on this when the feeling comes.
Care about yourself — things you do for yourself tell you at a gut level that you care about yourself. You have the option to make things bad or good for yourself.
Alcohol is not a tool — everything you were able to do under alcohol’s influence came from between your ears. Don’t think you are less creative, a lousy dancer, etc.
Remind yourself — even when you think you have ‘got it,’ remind yourself. Never again. Keep it fresh.
Imagery — for example, be mad at alcohol. Hate it for what it has done to you and those you care about. Being free of a horrible nightmare, knowing you are sober, is far better than the relief of waking from a bad dream. You were running on empty; as your drinking progressed, you were getting closer to the end of your life.
Make concepts real — if you are having a bad day, start it over, anytime, any number of times.
Visualize — for example, drunk living is wimp living.
Expect good things — they happen when we expect them. Mindset in a positive light gets us to perceive positive, helpful things rather than negative, destructive things.
Interrupt negative thoughts — identify them as ‘drinking thinking’ or some such. Change them, turn them around, obliterate them.
Look at drunks — especially when they are trying to pass as sober. Listen to what they are saying. Is that a wonderful life?
Action — no matter how small it seems.
Very best wishes to those who choose sobriety and life. If you really want to get and stay sober, there are people who will help you. You will be truly surprised at the lengths to which people will go to help you when you are for real.
Colter[/quote]
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
IndieQueen
()
Date: July 25, 2006 08:17PM
Secular Humanism and the secular model for sobriety are two entirely different things. Try looking up some information on Secular Humanism rather than looking up SOS.
I got a packet from James Christopher early this week and I'm still wading through it. Barbara, I haven't forgotten about posting some information here once I have a few minutes to sit down and transcribe some of it. One thing he told me on the phone was, the entire organization was vilified for years by people in AA. They knew nothing of the group and what they did, but they weren't AA, so they're bad. Funny, you don't see people from SOS or SMART launching in to personal attacks against people who don't agree with them.
I got a packet from James Christopher early this week and I'm still wading through it. Barbara, I haven't forgotten about posting some information here once I have a few minutes to sit down and transcribe some of it. One thing he told me on the phone was, the entire organization was vilified for years by people in AA. They knew nothing of the group and what they did, but they weren't AA, so they're bad. Funny, you don't see people from SOS or SMART launching in to personal attacks against people who don't agree with them.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 26, 2006 01:54AM
Thank you, Indie queen.
I would certainly be interested in any carefully researched and intelligently presented information you have to offer.
I would certainly be interested in any carefully researched and intelligently presented information you have to offer.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 26, 2006 03:07AM
Quote
IndieQueen
Secular Humanism and the secular model for sobriety are two entirely different things. Try looking up some information on Secular Humanism rather than looking up SOS.
Hi IndieQueen,
Indi, I feel that you and Barbara have taken my debates to personally. I have no ill will for either of you. I admire Barbaras intellect and tanacity. I told her and I will tell you, this is not personal, [u:8256a79f03]it's a debate.[/u:8256a79f03]
AA has been trashed on this thread and I don't think that is fair.
I've taken some time to educate myself about SOS considering I had never heard about it before. I felt a sence of compassion for Christopher as I read his bio and the program that he built barrowing heavily from AA, barrowing everything exccept God :wink:
He seems like a good person to me and I feel no animosity towards him or SOS members. I'm still thinking over the SOS "idea" as relates to my own phylisophocal world view, liberal theology, belief in the "inspired evolution of mankind" and humanism.
Their are clearly people staying off of alcohol in SOS, that is a very possitive thing.
Bill Willson, the founder of AA was a secular humanist before his spirtual experiance, that was the birth of AA. Many of us in AA are former secular humanist.
I'm affraid that "humanism" and the "secular model for sobriey" are certainly related:
"He moved the SOS International Clearing House to Buffalo, New York, in June 1990, [b:8256a79f03]accepting sponsorship by CODESH, an international humanist organization.[/b:8256a79f03] The SOS movement is separately incorporated as a non-profit organization and has been publishing a quarterly newsletter since 1987."
CODESH link
[www.secularhumanism.org]
SOS
A BRIEF HISTORY
"During my first years of sobriety I questioned a number of alcoholics, searching for the common thread of their successes in maintaining a lasting sobriety. When I was about three years into my sobriety I began to challenge the concepts of Alcoholics Anonymous.... By the time I was sober five years I had compiled an extensive file of responses and, four years to the present day, I've collected data from more than two thousand « sobrietists ». Both from this research and my own experience of recovery, I have put together a specific secular approach to achieving and maintaining long-term sobriety. I call it the « Sobriety Priority ». I wish to offer it here as « a » way (beware of anyone who offers « the » way) to achieve and maintain sobriety for life” James Christopher, 1986.
The SOS movement began with an article in the Summer 1985 issue of FREE INQUIRY magazine, the leading secular humanist journal in the USA. James Christopher, the son of an alcoholic, and a sober alcoholic himself, wrote « Sobriety Without Superstition », an account of the path he took to sobriety.
[b:8256a79f03]This path led Christopher from seventeen years of a fearful and guilty alcoholism to a fearful and guilty sobriety with Alcoholics Anonymous.[/b:8256a79f03] Christopher felt that there must be other alcoholics who wanted to achieve and maintain sobriety through personal responsibility and self-reliance.
[b:8256a79f03]He also felt that turning ones life over to a « Higher Power » was not compatible with current research which indicated that addiction is the result of physiology[/b:8256a79f03], not [b:8256a79f03]psychology[/color:8256a79f03] [/b:8256a79f03] .
Colter asks:
Is the program of SOS not psychological?[/color:8256a79f03]
As a result of the tremendous response to the article from those who wanted to maintain sobriety as a separate issue from religion, Jim Christopher founded the Secular Organizations for Sobriety.
Today there are SOS groups meeting in every state in the USA and throughout the United Kingdom, Belgium, Australia and Israel. SOS has gained official recognition from health professionals, clinics and US court system. In 1987 the California courts recognized SOS as an alternative to AA for recovery programs and the Veterans Administration has adopted a policy which prohibits mandatory participation in programs of a religious nature. In 1998, the American Association of Psychiatrists published a chapter written by James Christopher in its main professional textbook "Substance Abuse".
Colter
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.