upsidedown:
[b:3757acb0c8]Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion, other than you opinion that it should not be taking place here?[/b:3757acb0c8]
Many of us [b:3757acb0c8]do[/b:3757acb0c8].

[www.schaler.net]

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CULT-BUSTING?Jeffrey A. Schaler, Ph.D.

ABSTRACT
Psychological characteristics of[b:3757acb0c8] cult [/b:3757acb0c8]membership are discussed. The [b:3757acb0c8]cult[/b:3757acb0c8] nature of Alcoholics Anonymous and disease model of addiction ideology is examined. Patterns of response by individuals who believe strongly in the disease model of addiction when their ideology is challenged are analyzed.

[religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu]

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1. For 40 years since its inception in 1935, AA and the Twelve Steps were the only national self-help organization for alcoholics. The religious aspect of the program was a matter of concern for some agnostic, atheist, and religious minority alcoholics who needed help but didn`t want to betray their spiritual beliefs. In 1975 sociologist Jean Kirkpatrick, after trying AA twice and feeling it was too male-dominated, founded Women For Sobriety , a program designed to address the self-esteem issues in female alcoholics. Kirkpatrick solidified her program into the Thirteen Statements of Acceptance , aimed at creating positive self-esteem rather than re-building it. There is not a trace of religiosity in the statements, proving WFS the first significant dissatisfaction and subsequent departure from AA (Bufe: 124). In 1988, WFS expanded to help men in a separate program, Men For Sobriety.

[www.freedomofmind.com]

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The “alcoholism [b:3757acb0c8]cult[/b:3757acb0c8].” That’s what Sheldon Bacon, for many years the director of the Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, called overly avid supporters of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[www.netdoctor.co.uk]

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Treatment for addiction problems
If you have any concerns consult your doctor, who has a range of treatment options at his disposal.
The 12-step approach of AA is useful for many people though not for everyone.

[www.clearhavencenter.com]

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12-step programs have very little research to prove their effectiveness, consider the following:

• The rise in the number of 12-step programs, members and the inclusion of 12-step philosophy in treatment programs are evidence only of its popularity, not of its effectiveness.
• AA contends that upward of 75% of its members maintain abstinence. However, the evidence for this claim is typically testimonials of long-term, abstinent participants.
• By not considering dropouts, who may be more likely to continue or resume drug and alcohol abuse, the effectiveness of 12-step programs is probably exaggerated.
• Approximately 50% of AA participants drop out within the first 3 months of attendance, and only about 13% of initial attendees will maintain a long-term relationship with AA.

[www.clearhavencenter.com]

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The Moral Model
The downside of the moral model has become increasingly clear over the years. Alcohol prohibition (in the United States) failed to eliminate drinking behaviour and increased criminal activity through black market sales of alcohol. A program in British Columbia that required people addicted to heroin to undergo compulsory treatment was considered unsuccessful and was discontinued in the 1970s.108 The “War on Drugs” has led to the highest incarceration rate in American history with little evidence of reduced illegal drug use as a result.109,110 People with addictions problems are stigmatized and are often demoralized by feelings of self-blame, shame, and guilt to the extent that they are unwilling or unable to seek help or treatment.

[www.fed-soc.org]

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The arguably religious (though non-sectarian) nature of AA has led to constitutional challenges when alcoholics convicted of crimes have been required to attend AA as a condition of parole or other privileges. Last year, in Griffin v. Coughlin,(4) the Court of Appeals held that an atheist prisoner could not be deprived of eligibility for expanded family visitation privileges on the basis of his refusal to participate in the prison's only rehabilitation program, where that program used many of AA's religiously-oriented principles and activities.(5) Last month, in Warner v. Orange County Dep't of Probation, the Southern District of New York held that the county could not order a convicted drunk driver to attend AA as a condition of probation.(6)

[www.law.cornell.edu]

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Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d  674 (June 11, 1996).
CONSTITUTIONAL LAW - ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE - ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
AN INMATE'S EXPANDED VISITATION PRIVILEGES MAY NOT BE CONDITIONED UPON HIS MANDATORY PARTICIPATION IN A SUBSTANCE ABUSE REHABILITATION PROGRAM THAT IS BASED ON THE RELIGIOUS-ORIENTED PRACTICES OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

[www.peele.net]

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The Stanton Peele AA Defense Package

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barabara

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The worshipful communion of an AA meeting

What are you talking about?
What exactly does "worshipful communion" mean for you?

Believers in God must increasingly learn how to step aside from the rush of life--escape the harassments of material existence--while they refresh the soul, inspire the mind, and renew the spirit by worshipful communion.

I feel that I can relax in AA, that people their understand me. I can let down the guard of competitiveness that is so common in the world. I am among others who believe in God and are open about their weaknesses in the flesh.

"The will is strong but the flesh is weak"....but weak flesh can be made stronger by the intervention of the spirit and the communion with others.

Sometimes I can go to a meeting when I'm in a funk or have had a relapse of low self esteem (tunnel vision of my self worth) and get re energized. I may not even here anything in particular at the meeting but leave refreshed and reminded of why I go to meetings in the first place.

It's not good to "live alone" with our problems. After all these years I can still get up in my head and get muged.

For me and my faith I can sit at a meeting and express "worship" and gratitude for for the gift of sobriety as I hear others being sincere.


Colter

I think that the reason we have such diametrically opposed views on AA meetings is that many I have been to have often been either "fundamentalist/judgemental", or confrontational, dis-functional, aggressive, and seemingly psychotic.
From your accounts, the ones in your area are more restrained, self-controlled, and "religious".
Like I said, I've even witnessed violent physical aggression,[b:8c7c840d96] during[/b:8c7c840d96], (not before or after), meetings.

I have been to meetings that were relaxed and "refreshing".
Most of the meetings were unremarkable, a few were inspiring, many were aggressive and confrontational, but those ones were memorable for the level of anxiety produced in a large percentage of the attendees.

It is true that different areas of the country have different styles of AA.

"Cultishness" varies from place to place and from meeting to meeting as well, from what I have seen.
Too bad there isn't a Michelin or Fodor's guide to AA meetings so that the cultish and/or confrontational ones could be avoided by the newcomer, and others.

[b:8c7c840d96]The author of this essay obviously does not believe AA is a cult, and yet she does not feel the need to attempt to silence or invalidate the feelings and experiences of those who do.[/b:8c7c840d96]

Although I do not necessarily agree with her analysis, I find it remarkable in the way she has succeeded in remaining objective and has not resorted to attacking those who disagree with her assessment.
[mentalhelp.net]

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[comments from readers about the preceding article]

[b:8c7c840d96]Where there is a cohesive group there is a way to be abused within the group or excluded from that group.[/b:8c7c840d96] When abuse occurs it can be very hard to separate from the group because one has attached her identity to the group. This abuse or pain does not define a cult- it defines a harmful group experience. Exclusion from a cohesive group (that one has been a part of) is also universally painful and can be very emotionally damaging.

[b:8c7c840d96]The hard part is that two people in the same group can have very different experiences.[/b:8c7c840d96] One can experience it as abusive and another as supportive. Sometimes abuse is clear (as in the case of physical abuse or rape) but most cases it is a subjective experience that cannot be ‘proven’ either way. [b:8c7c840d96]This in no way makes it a less valid experience.[/b:8c7c840d96]

[b:8c7c840d96]The problem, I believe, is that people who have experienced a group as abusive feel invalidated and begin to look for support for their feelings. [/b:8c7c840d96]

People who have chosen to define a group as a cult often resort to the brainwashing theory’s language and infers that members are somehow stupid, unable to think for themselves, or weak.[b:8c7c840d96] This is often very hurtful to people who still have a positive affiliation to the group.[/b:8c7c840d96]

I agree with you Barbara, that's why in one of my earlier post I mentioned that " I get it" I get what your saying. When I said that "your not crazy" I was trying to say that I have heard your criticisms of what you have legitimately experienced in AA meetings with predation, corrupt sponsorship, and "cult like" behavior by sick alcoholic AA members.

What you here in me is not my frustration at you as a critic of AA but rather my frustration at the sorry ass representation that those AA members who you have encountered presented. So I have been trying to distinguish the difference between AA culture and what AA actually says.

There are times when people come to AA and don't want to do any of what is suggested and they think were all screwed up and out to get them.

You are right, I am lucky to live in a town with a diverse and vibrant AA community both young and old, male and female, black and white. All and all I think there is a lot of quality sobriety in my area. Par for the course though we do have the "thumpers" that will go on a sermon in the meeting and explain that people need to do it their way or they will get drunk and turn into chain saw murderers. These rigid thumper types are people too and we need to tolerate them until they can come to see the error of their ways. Luckily in AA we all go around the room and give varying views of the fellowship so that newbies can see a different face of AA then the fundamentalist view.

You may be aware that back when AA was younger and had no traditions GSO asked all the groups to send in a list of rules that they thought should be enforced in AA meetings. What they realized though was that if all those rules had been in place at once none of us would be allowed in meetings so the Traditions evolved out of that realization. You are a member if you say you are and nobody in AA can tell you how to think.

The other cool thing about AA is that if we don't like any of the meetings that we are going to we can start our own with a core of like minded people and try to present the best atmosphere for people who come in. We can have our own preamble including any "ideals" that we want.


The attitude that I take is that when I'm in an AA meeting the chair I'm in is mine, I paid for it and I have the right to be there. I refuse to be run off by "trendy" fanatical types. I've learned that if I stick around long enough the people that annoy me will either get well or get drunk. If it's AA it will stay if not IT will go away.

Colter

I also feel that "rules" for meetings are not the answer.

I think it needs to be made very, very clear to the newcomer that it is up to them to protect themselves, that there are no "gurus", (in the sense that no one can give you enlightenment), and that not every one in the rooms is compassionate, kind or trustworthy.

I truly do believe that the "cultishness" that some people experience is the result of having been given bad guidance by [b:26f602dae8]some[/b:26f602dae8] older AA members, and that if a newcomer is taught [b:26f602dae8]not[/b:26f602dae8] to drop their guard, if or when they get love-bombed by the [b:26f602dae8]minority [/b:26f602dae8]of well-meaning fools or the predators, they can avoid a lot of the mental anguish that they might otherwise experience.

I was dead serious when I posted my suggestions for "a warning to newcomers".
I know some people have taken and will take offense at this suggestion, but I meant it as a possible solution, not as an insult to AA.

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barabara
I also feel that "rules" for meetings are not the answer.

I think it needs to be made very, very clear to the newcomer that it is up to them to protect themselves, that there are no "gurus", (in the sense that no one can give you enlightenment), and that not every one in the rooms is compassionate, kind or trustworthy.

The only problem is the sponsor is such an important part of the XA program, don't ask me why. You are also told to look out for the "winners" which are ususally those, IMO, who are the ones who are often addicted to the program.

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I truly do believe that the "cultishness" that some people experience is the result of having been given bad guidance by [b:62847dfe73]some[/b:62847dfe73] older AA members, and that if a newcomer is taught [b:62847dfe73]not[/b:62847dfe73] to drop their guard, if or when they get love-bombed by the [b:62847dfe73]minority [/b:62847dfe73]of well-meaning fools or the predators, they can avoid a lot of the mental anguish that they might otherwise experience.

Personally, one of my major problems is the love-bombing. Its not just the minority that do this, they whole program surrounds around "the most important person is the newcomer."

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I was dead serious when I posted my suggestions for "a warning to newcomers".
I know some people have taken and will take offense at this suggestion, but I meant it as a possible solution, not as an insult to AA.

I did not take it as an insult myself. I think many small changes would take the cult-like parts out of XA, and even make it a successful program.

[www.aa-uk.org.uk]

The no-holds-barred funniest review of AA I ever read.
Subtle, dry, surprisingly accurate, and Oh, so very British, from the AA UK website.

Did anyone ever actually post the 12 steps?

Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

5. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

7. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

8. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

9. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of

10. His will for us and the power to carry that out.

11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

12. Other twelve-step groups have modified the twelve steps slightly from those of Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to problems other than alcoholism.

Other twelve-step groups at times may have modified the twelve steps.

The twelve steps above have some very confusing typos, ones that may obscure the intent of the steps.
Here they stand corrected:

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1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ? that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I didn't post them because there are some major differences in the steps of XA groups. For example, in AA step 1 is powerless to alcohol, whereas NA is powerless to our addiction.

The difference between being powerless to a substance and powerless to a problem/spiritual/moral deficiency changes a core part of the program.

RR, I have never seen your steps, even in AA literature. May I ask where you found them?

This is what I got off the official AA site:

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1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Also important are the 12 traditions, the other half of the 12X12

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1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority — a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.