Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 26, 2006 07:02AM
colter states:
When you accuse your fellow debaters of misrepresenting the organization in question, ignore documentation that they have provided, and insinuate that they have hidden motives, (as you have), you violate the rules of civilized debate.
[b:a60596c269]These types of rebuttals more closely resemble the actions of a cult watchdog against those who critique and question the "sacred science".[/b:a60596c269]
[b:a60596c269]A few pointers on the art of debate[/b:a60596c269]:
from the World Book Encyclopedia:
Good debate does not rely on ad-hominem argument, character assassination, calling your opponent a liar, or ignoring the evidence they have presented.
([b:a60596c269]ad hominem[/b:a60596c269], (Latin.)
1. appealing to a person's prejudices or emotions rather than to his power to reason. Ex. an argument ad hominem.
2. (literally) to the man. )
[b:a60596c269]One more thing:[/b:a60596c269]
You might try posting links to the actual articles. An argument has more weight if you name your sources.
Quote
Hi IndieQueen,
Indi, I feel that you and Barbara have taken my debates to personally. I have no ill will for either of you. I admire Barbaras intellect and tanacity. I told her and I will tell you, this is not personal, it's a debate.
When you accuse your fellow debaters of misrepresenting the organization in question, ignore documentation that they have provided, and insinuate that they have hidden motives, (as you have), you violate the rules of civilized debate.
[b:a60596c269]These types of rebuttals more closely resemble the actions of a cult watchdog against those who critique and question the "sacred science".[/b:a60596c269]
[b:a60596c269]A few pointers on the art of debate[/b:a60596c269]:
from the World Book Encyclopedia:
Quote
Debate is a series of formal spoken arguments for and against a definite proposition. A proposition is a carefully worded statement that makes clear the positions of both the affirmative and negative sides.
Debate differs from discussion. Discussion is the process by which a problem is recognized, defined, and investigated, and then solutions are explored.
Propositions. Subjects for debates are expressed in the form of propositions. Propositions should be:
(1) Appropriate to the knowledge, experience, and interests of both speakers and audience.
(2) Debatable--that is, not obviously true or false. The statements should involve an honest difference of opinion, with arguments and evidence on both sides.
(3) Phrased in the affirmative. Positive statements prevent confusion by making the issue clear-cut.
(4) Restricted to set forth only one idea. This policy keeps the debate within narrow limits.
(5) Worded clearly. The words should be ones that can be defined exactly, so the debate does not become a mere quibble over the meaning of words.
There are four kinds of propositions: (1) propositions of fact, (2) propositions of value, (3) propositions of explanation, and (4) propositions of policy.
A proposition of fact is a statement to be proven true or false as the evidence is gathered.
A proposition of value contains a relative term that makes a value judgment.
A proposition of explanation attempts to determine whether a cause and effect relationship exists between two actions or events.
A proposition of policy evaluates potential courses of action. It answers the question, "should we change?" A proposition of policy may argue for a new program:
Analysis. After a subject has been selected and the proposition carefully worded, the next step is analysis of the proposition by both debating teams. Analysis of the proposition begins with a broad understanding of it. As a team member, you should know as much about your opponents' case as you know about your own side. Good debaters study the origin and history of a proposition, define its terms, and survey carefully all the arguments and evidence for and against it.
The issues.
The chief points of difference between the affirmative and the negative are the main issues. These may have divisions called subordinate issues. There must be a clash of opinion on both the main and the subordinate issues. A good way to help find the issues is to list the opposing arguments in parallel columns.
The evidence.
After the issues have been determined, the next step for the debaters is to find the evidence that will prove the issue true or false. Evidence can be in the form of factual evidence or testimonial evidence. Factual evidence consists of current and historical examples (true incidents), statistics, physical evidence, and facts. Testimonial evidence consists of opinions of experts on the subject being debated. To evaluate testimonial evidence, the debater should ask: "Is this authority an expert and, thus, in a position to know the truth?" and "Is this authority biased, and, thus, in any position to tell the truth?"
Good debate does not rely on ad-hominem argument, character assassination, calling your opponent a liar, or ignoring the evidence they have presented.
([b:a60596c269]ad hominem[/b:a60596c269], (Latin.)
1. appealing to a person's prejudices or emotions rather than to his power to reason. Ex. an argument ad hominem.
2. (literally) to the man. )
[b:a60596c269]One more thing:[/b:a60596c269]
You might try posting links to the actual articles. An argument has more weight if you name your sources.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
IndieQueen
()
Date: July 26, 2006 08:34PM
Let's see, Colter, you all but said that I'd be a bad therapist becasue I don't agree with AA. You also speculated quite a bit about a lot of things where I"m concerned. You can't get much more personal than that can you?
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 27, 2006 12:26AM
Quote
IndieQueen
Let's see, Colter, you all but said that I'd be a bad therapist becasue I don't agree with AA. You also speculated quite a bit about a lot of things where I"m concerned. You can't get much more personal than that can you?
IndieQueen,
If you carry such a severely distorted view of AA, if that bias "bleeds" into how you would treat alcoholics via referrals then that, I believe, will be a negative thing.
I'm sorry Indi that you suffered such unfair abuse in your family of origin. :cry: I happen to come from two great parents and couple of loving siblings so I can't speak with any experience on what abuse is like.
I'm sorry that your dad was not able to get the program and as you have described him was not a good example AT ALL of what AA could do for people but that simply is not AA's fault. AA did not fail your dad, your dad failed to change, he failed the gift of AA. You said it yourself,[u:ce2cff4e9b] your dad was in and out of AA for years. [/u:ce2cff4e9b]
We have a saying in AA, [b:ce2cff4e9b]"the same person will drink again."[/b:ce2cff4e9b] It sounds like your dad failed to enlarge his spiritual life, [b:ce2cff4e9b]his personality did not change.[/b:ce2cff4e9b]
NOWHERE in ANY of AA's literature or culture do we teach people to abuse their families or hide their drinking, that was how you characterized AA.
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 27, 2006 12:43AM
Barbara,
I don't call people liers.
I have not said that AA is sacred science, I have said that AA is sacred to me in that it has changed my life in positive ways that I never dreamed possible. The same goes for thousands of people that I have met.
Colter
I don't call people liers.
Quote
These types of rebuttals more closely resemble the actions of a cult watchdog against those who critique and question the "sacred science".
I have not said that AA is sacred science, I have said that AA is sacred to me in that it has changed my life in positive ways that I never dreamed possible. The same goes for thousands of people that I have met.
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
IndieQueen
()
Date: July 27, 2006 12:56AM
And you got all of that out of my saying that I'll keep a file of alternative options available to my clients? You do realize that keeping files of alternative options is standard right?
Really, there's no point in even speaking to you. You know everything there is to know about me from one line of text.
Really, there's no point in even speaking to you. You know everything there is to know about me from one line of text.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 27, 2006 02:14AM
Quote
IndieQueen
And you got all of that out of my saying that I'll keep a file of alternative options available to my clients? You do realize that keeping files of alternative options is standard right?
Really, there's no point in even speaking to you. You know everything there is to know about me from one line of text.
IndiQeen,
I don't get it :shock: Didn't you write the following message????:
"I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for this one, but so be it. I'll stand up and say that AA ruined my childhood. My father has been in and out of AA for years. He learned very early on through meetings to use his drinking as a means to control us. He'd threaten to start drinking again every time a problem came up. That was dad's way of shutting us up when we misbehaved or when somebody asked him why he couldn't get off his lazy butt and get a job. He beat us for the smallest things then his AA buddies told him he didn't have any control over it because he had a disease. They told my mom to just be "more supportive" of him and his recovery and everything would be ok. More supportive meant give in to his selfsh me first attitude and let the kids suffer. They tried to force us to go to meetings for children of AA members when we were older and when we refused, they told my dad that we were horrible, selfish children.
Through AA, my dad learned how to hide his continued drinking, how to bilk other members for money and charity, how to cheat on his wife with female members and how to be an all around abusive SOB and justify it all. I won't even get in to the number of shady characters he brought home from meetings. My last straw was when my father actually told me to dump the man I ended up marrying so I could marry one of his AA buddies. When he was in AA, my dad was never responsible for anyting, it was always somebody else's fault. Blaming a child for your drinking and your voilence is lower than low in my opinion.
By the way, I just spoke with the gentleman from RR last week and he seemed just fine to me. I'm studying social work and I needed an alternative to AA for my addiction class. They're trying to make me go to an AA meeting to observe. I have no desire to do so, AA caused me enough trauma, I don't need any more."[/color:a708fdb1f8]
That is where I got my understanding of how you view AA.
I suppose keeping a file with altenatives is a good thing.
You can cut me off if you like, but I'm not your enemy Indi :roll:
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 27, 2006 03:56AM
Yet you continually infer that we are misrepresenting AA by posting our personal experiences, and that we have hidden motives for doing so.
Unless you are omniscient, you cannot possibly know what goes on at all meetings everywhere, so you do not have the right to invalidate our experiences.
Unless you are omniscient, you cannot possibly know what goes on at all meetings everywhere, so you do not have the right to invalidate our experiences.
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: July 27, 2006 04:58AM
Quote
barabara
Yet you continually infer that we are misrepresenting AA by posting our personal experiences, and that we have hidden motives for doing so.
Unless you are omniscient, you cannot possibly know what goes on at all meetings everywhere, so you do not have the right to invalidate our experiences.
Your right Barbara, I can't know what goes on in the meetings in your area. I should take your word for it and take what you say at face value. That being said the AA meetings in your area sound like a horrible digression from the traditions of AA. If they are that slimey then I don't know how anyone is staying sober.
would the same kind of flawed people show up at SOS...RR...SMART...Moderation Management?[/color:f2336f624a]
If so I would not try to pin it on those programs.
My argument still stands, it appears to me that you are insinuating that this is a flaw of AA [b:f2336f624a]the program[/b:f2336f624a], that we somehow foster or encourage this kind of abhorrent behavior.
You said in a previous post:
I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.
I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.
I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.
I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that that is the cause of much harm to many.
I also believe that the concept of "powerlessness" and the disease theory of addiction and alcoholism give many an excuse to avoid exercising control over their own behavior that in reality they are capable of.
By Behavior I am not speaking specifically of drinking or using.
I believe that it was an attempt by some very flawed, egotistical people to possibly help themselves and others, but that in many ways they were corrupted by their own fame, as well as allowing themselves to indulge their own defects of character.
I think the newcomer to AA, in particular the naive newcomer and the female newcomer, should exercise extreme caution in who they listen to at meetings, and that they should remember to use whatever sense they have at all times.
It is an organization of very flawed people getting together for a variety of reasons, only one of which is an attempt to stay sober.
Colter
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: July 27, 2006 05:37AM
I have decided that this thread just isn't worth it.
Let AA rule the world for all I care.
I hope someone eventually discovers some type of substance abuse rehab that works. God knows we need it.
(ps. colter:
I didn't "insinuate" that the "program", the "big book", and some AA members permit and encourage "abhorrent behavior".
I stated it outright.)
Let AA rule the world for all I care.
I hope someone eventually discovers some type of substance abuse rehab that works. God knows we need it.
(ps. colter:
I didn't "insinuate" that the "program", the "big book", and some AA members permit and encourage "abhorrent behavior".
I stated it outright.)
Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by:
dwest
()
Date: July 30, 2006 10:17AM
Quote
Colter
Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good. Self delusion is a common characteristic of those with addictive behavior.
I will not deal with what appears to be a personal attack. This quote also seems to me to be the type of thing I would see in a cult. "My way or the highway" does not work with me.
Why do assume those who are critical are addicts? You are making an illogical jump here. There are many AA based groups, Nar-Anon for example.
Quote
Try mentioning AA in a RR meeting. In 20 years of recovery I have NEVER heard any of the other programs mentioned in AA much less in a negative light. There is however a young gentleman that is a member of my home group who joined the "AA is a cult",cult and eventually drank for 2 years. He has since returned to AA and is now able to laugh at the manifestation of his hypochondria which sent him out into the paranoid wilderness.
RR is an anti-AA group. Of course they will feel that way. Why do you think members left Tempsy in the dust and started another program based on CBT?
I personally feel that any program that gets the drunk to stop drinking is the main reason one joins a program to stop drinking.Quote
If one can convince a horse thief to stop drinking then what you get is a sober horse thief. AA may not be the only "way" to get sober but any regiment that does not include the alcoholic getting honest and facing those he or she has hurt has scant chance for success.
If the person is stealing horses to get drunk, then it is the alcoholism that is driving him to steal, correct? He stops drinking, he stops stealing.
If you want someone to stop other behavior besides drinking/drugging, treat that behavior, but that has nothing to do with drinking.
BTW, AA does not have a monopoly on treating related problems.
Quote
The hard truth is that very few alcoholics get sober and very few stay sober the rest of their lives. AA has been profoundly successful, this simply cannot be denied.
Colter
Wrong, the hard truth is that AA is not any more successful than other treatment options.
From a pro-AA site
Quote
(a) A definite 75% fail to maintain sobriety. (b) Probably no more than one to five percent maintain permanent sobriety. (c) As often as not, those who aligned with AA have a lower success rate than those who got sober without AA.
The GSO disagrees, citing in their own A.A.'s Triennial Surveys:
Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded these numbers:
* 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
* 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
* 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
* and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year.
What is the spontaneous remission among alcoholics? That's right, 5%!
So if every guy that stayed a year in AA remained sober then they would have the same success rate as the guy that never entered the room.
That's a big if.
My source is GSO's document 5M/12-90/TC page 12
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