colter says:

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Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good.

Would you care to cite your sources on that statement? Do you have any supporting evidence?

There has been some mention of court rulings requiring attendance of Alcoholics Anonymous as a release condition, can somebody provide more information about this, please. Specifically, in which countries, under which provisions of law, how Alcoholics Anonymous was classified for the purpose and how restricting the options to this group was justified.

This colter gets away with a lot of 'flaming' here that wouldn't be permitted if we were discussing other organisations.

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barabara
colter says:

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Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good.

Would you care to cite your sources on that statement? Do you have any supporting evidence?

Yes, I do Barbara, 21 years of experience in AA with thousands of alcoholics and their stories.

I have heard countless stories from alcoholics who hung around AA without ever working the steps, they remained miserable and dry some got drunk, some got honest but without fail they all recounted how they had rationalized and practiced self deception until they hurt bad enough.

Alcoholics are funny people, we can talk about working the program to the point that we actually think we have done it. When it comes down to it so many of the aforementioned individuals finally conceded that they had never really worked the program.
Colter

By sources I meant some kind of research, or at least a professional opinion.

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Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good.

So that statement is merely your[b:58af98e6fb] opinion[/color:58af98e6fb][/b:58af98e6fb], not a fact.

You are also attributing motives and emotions to people you can't possibly know.

We all have opinions here. Some of us are able to back them up with statistics and independent research, however.

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kath
This colter gets away with a lot of 'flaming' here that wouldn't be permitted if we were discussing other organisations.

I don't think this is a site intended to just "trash" decent programs without rebuttal.

With 16,000 page views in a relative short period of time I suspect that their are "vulnerable individuals," the ones that Barbara is so concerned about, that have been effected by all the anti AA propaganda splattered about the board here with no alternatives provided.

I'm quite outnumbered here by people with axe's to grind so maybe the mods think it a fair fight.

Colter

[b:a79c5ff959]You have basically told all of us that have criticisms of AA that we are dishonest, lying alcoholics who have failed to "work the steps"[/b:a79c5ff959]

Your opinions are insulting.

Let me give you an example of what an insult from our side might be like:

As an example, I could state that:

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Almost without fail, people who claim I am misrepresenting the program by relating my own experiences and opinions are manipulative male AA members who refuse to look at their own part in the exploitation of newcomers. They are also probably hiding the fact that they did not do the steps correctly themselves, and are probably members who are hiding their own secret drinking.
Many of them undoubtedly did some 13-stepping themselves at some point, but don't want to admit it.

That would be an opinion, one that some people probably hold. [b:a79c5ff959]I am not of that opinion, by the way.
[/b:a79c5ff959]
I could say that, but I won't. It would not be fair for me to say that, unless I said it was only my opinion, and it is not my opinion.

If I could back up that statement by case histories from a qualified psychiatric professional, surveys or poles, or research by professional sociologists, it might (read: might) carry some weight in a debate.

If I am basing my statement on my own experience or on my own bias, then it would remain merely my opinion, and a[b:a79c5ff959] judgmental, unpleasant flame against anyone who does not share my opinion of AA.[/b:a79c5ff959]

Furthermore, you once again make a statement that attempts to negate our own posts:

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With 16,000 page views in a relative short period of time I suspect that their are "vulnerable individuals," the ones that Barbara is so concerned about, that have been effected by all the anti AA propaganda splattered about the board here[b:a79c5ff959] with no alternatives provided[/b:a79c5ff959]

[b:a79c5ff959]We have named several alternatives to AA, repeatedly, complete with links, articles, scientific research and professional opinion.[/b:a79c5ff959] Your claiming we have not will not convince anyone here.

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barabara
By sources I meant some kind of research, or at least a professional opinion.

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Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good.

So that statement is merely your[b:0b52c14df8] opinion[/color:0b52c14df8][/b:0b52c14df8], not a fact.

You are also attributing motives and emotions to people you can't possibly know.

We all have opinions here. Some of us are able to back them up with statistics and independent research, however.

Experience Barbara, it is the thing of supreme value in life. It may not be good enough for you but it's ok with me.

We credit the great Dr. Carl Young for founding AA, it was his work with his patient "Roland" in Switzerland that influenced Dr. Silkworth at Towns hospital and then on to Bill Wilson who organized the great evil cult which has fooled so many of us into thinking we are sober, happy and even deceptively grateful for what the AA cult has given us.

A certain American business man[u:0b52c14df8] had ability[/u:0b52c14df8], [u:0b52c14df8]good sense[/u:0b52c14df8], and[u:0b52c14df8] high character[/u:0b52c14df8]. For years he had floundered from one sanitarium to another. He had consulted the best known American psychiatrists.[/size:0b52c14df8] Then he had gone to Europe, placing himself in the care of a celebrated physician (the psychiatrist, Dr. Jung) who prescribed for him. Though experience had made him skeptical, he finished his treatment with unusual confidence. His physical and mental condition were unusually good. Above all, he believed [b:0b52c14df8]he had acquired such a profound knowledge of the inner workings of his mind and its hidden springs that relapse was unthinkable[/color:0b52c14df8]. [/b:0b52c14df8]Nevertheless, he was drunk in a short time. More baffling still, he could give himself [b:0b52c14df8]no satisfactory explanation for his fall.[/b:0b52c14df8]

So he returned to this doctor, whom he admired, and asked him point-blank why he could not recover. He wished above all things to regain self-control. [b:0b52c14df8]He seemed quite rational and well- balanced with respect to other problems. Yet he had no control whatever over alcohol. Why was this? [/b:0b52c14df8]

He begged the doctor to tell him [b:0b52c14df8]the whole truth[/b:0b52c14df8],[b:0b52c14df8] and he got it[/color:0b52c14df8].[/b:0b52c14df8] In the doctor's judgment he was utterly hopeless; he could never regain his position in society and he would have to place himself under lock and key or hire a bodyguard if he expected to live long. That was a great physician's opinion.

But this man still lives, and is a free man. He does not need a bodyguard nor is he confined. He can go anywhere on this earth where other from men may go without disaster, provided he remains willing to maintain a certain simple attitude.

Some of our alcoholic readers may think they can do without spiritual help. Let us tell you the rest of the conversation our friend had with his doctor.

The doctor said: "You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have never seen one single case recover, where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you." Our friend felt as though the gates of hell had closed on him with a clang.

He said to the doctor, "[b:0b52c14df8]Is there no exception?" [/b:0b52c14df8]

[b:0b52c14df8] "Yes,"[/size:0b52c14df8] [/b:0b52c14df8] replied the doctor, "there is. [b:0b52c14df8]Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your description."* [/b:0b52c14df8]

Upon hearing this, our friend was somewhat relieved, for he reflected that, after all, he was a good church member. [b:0b52c14df8]This hope, however, was destroyed by the doctor's telling him that while his religious convictions were very good, in his case they did not spell the necessary vital spiritual experience. [/b:0b52c14df8]

Here was the terrible dilemma in which our friend found himself when he had the extraordinary experience, which as we have already told you, made him a free man.

Colter

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barabara
[b:e45136cb3d]You have basically told all of us that have criticisms of AA that we are dishonest, lying alcoholics who have failed to "work the steps"[/b:e45136cb3d]

Your opinions are insulting.

Let me give you an example of what an insult from our side might be like:

As an example, I could state that:

Quote

Almost without fail, people who claim I am misrepresenting the program by relating my own experiences and opinions are manipulative male AA members who refuse to look at their own part in the exploitation of newcomers. They are also probably hiding the fact that they did not do the steps correctly themselves, and are probably members who are hiding their own secret drinking.
Many of them undoubtedly did some 13-stepping themselves at some point, but don't want to admit it.

That would be an opinion, one that some people probably hold. [b:e45136cb3d]I am not of that opinion, by the way.
[/b:e45136cb3d]
I could say that, but I won't. It would not be fair for me to say that, unless I said it was only my opinion, and it is not my opinion.

If I could back up that statement by case histories from a qualified psychiatric professional, surveys or poles, or research by professional sociologists, it might (read: might) carry some weight in a debate.

If I am basing my statement on my own experience or on my own bias, then it would remain merely my opinion, and a[b:e45136cb3d] judgmental, unpleasant flame against anyone who does not share my opinion of AA.[/b:e45136cb3d]

Furthermore, you once again make a statement that attempts to negate our own posts:

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With 16,000 page views in a relative short period of time I suspect that their are "vulnerable individuals," the ones that Barbara is so concerned about, that have been effected by all the anti AA propaganda splattered about the board here[b:e45136cb3d] with no alternatives provided[/b:e45136cb3d]

[b:e45136cb3d]We have named several alternatives to AA, repeatedly, complete with links, articles, scientific research and professional opinion.[/b:e45136cb3d] Your claiming we have not will not convince anyone here.

But Barbara, you fail to see that many of your criticisms of AA and it's unregulated predatory squad apply to those other programs. Are you going to tell me that SOS doesn't have a group think modality for recovery? Much of their ideology was taken from AA as it was a former AA member that started it??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Apparently the founder of SOS liked some things about AA, just not God???

Are the members present in SOS or RR or Sober Vikings some kind of Puritans with none of the dysfunctional dynamic which you have plastered AA members with???

As the other gentleman on this thread has stated RR is just " we hate AA."

What about Moderation Management, the biggest slip in history???? The founder of that brilliant program is in Jail for double vehicular homicide........................well the bright side of it is she didn't get brain washed by them nasty AA pedophiles!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, with all of your compelling arguments you have NOT provided a safe alternative to the monster that you have portrayed.


Colter

Colter:
Your loyalty to an organization that you believe saved your life is admirable.

Most of us, (those who have criticisms of AA), have had experiences that we believe to have harmed ourselves or our loved ones.

No one has accused you, (I don't think), of misrepresenting your AA experiences.

It is not "fair" to use insults, derogatory statements and insinuations as debating techniques. It does not make your argument stronger, either.

So far, you have made derogatory remarks about female AA members, in reference to claims of sexual predation:

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I find it ironic that alcoholics who spend their lives in bars and/or with dubious moraly lax individuals would be concerned about "horny" people at an AA meeting.
There are women only meetings for the irresistibly beautiful to go to.

When I was referring to "irresistibly beautiful" I was being tongue in cheek kidding . It was a reference to the EGO's of women who use the "their all men" excuse to avoid getting honest with themselves.

You have made derogatory remarks about psychiatric professionals who would like to help the alcoholic and addict:

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The professional community of intellectual liberal types have often been critics of AA out of professional jealousy. AA can do something that they can't, help the alcoholic get sober.

What we see is the EGO's of the therapists getting "tweaked" a little bit just as religions do by the fact that the 12 steps have been able to do something that they cannot.

If I have a beef with the therapeutic community it has more to do with AA members who decide to go into "the business" and charge money for those truths that they have harvested from AA for free.

You have attempted to deny us our experiences and discredit our interpretation of them:

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AA didn't ruin your childhood, your father did.
It is quite possible that you do not want to attend AA for your class studies because your somehow comfortable blaming AA for you fathers deplorable behavior.

The statement that "many types of antisocial behavior are engaged in by AA members." Gross exaggeration. The meeting last an hour, how much can we possibly do in the meeting in an hour!

You have repeatedly ignored articles and statements posted by others:

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What about Moderation Management, the biggest slip in history???? The founder of that brilliant program is in Jail for double vehicular homicide........................well the bright side of it is she didn't get brain washed by them nasty AA pedophiles[/color:d62201193a]!!!!!!!!!!!

[b:d62201193a]Either you haven't actually read the posts of others here, or you are deliberately trying to mislead newcomers to the thread by ignoring them.[/b:d62201193a]
Excerpts from these articles about Kishline were posted by bonnie earlier in the thread:

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http://www.schaler.net/inthenews/Liberty.htm

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Will the Kishline auto accident be a boost for total abstinence and a blow to moderation? I hope not, since the Twelve Step cult, by undermining individuals' sense of personal competence and responsibility, does a lot of harm.
And this story does have one more little wrinkle. A short while before the accident, Kishline announced that she had relapsed into excessive drinking and had again begun attending AA meetings[/color:d62201193a].
David Ramsay Steele

Her switch fro MM to AA was noted by the New YouK Times:
[www.nytimes.com]

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But far from depicting Ms. Kishline as an example of the failures of Moderation Management, people involved with the organization note that she had also tried abstinence and failed. And the worst incident occurred, in her own depiction, after she had joined Alcoholics Anonymous. [/color:d62201193a]
"Isn't it ironic that her most extreme case of intoxication came after she quit Moderation Management?" said Stanton Peele, a board member of Moderation Management who is a psychologist in Morristown, N.J. "A.A. didn't have the answers for her, either."

And you have insinuated that we are "failed" 12-steppers, who have a grudge against AA and an ax to grind:

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Almost without fail those who are critical of AA's twelve steps are bitter people who never actually tried them so rather they concoct in their mind a thousand and one reasons why they don't need to do them. They make that which is good out to be evil and that which is evil out to be good.

These are just a few examples of the "unfair" tactics you have used.

Of course we have an ax to grind!
[b:d62201193a]We believe that we and/or our loved ones have been harmed by the organization of AA and its members.[/b:d62201193a]

If you really wish to prove your point, and provide support for your opinions, show us some qualified statistics, professional opinions, and research results that confirm what you believe.
Prove to us that AA has a success rate higher than 5%.
Do some research, and stop preaching.
Otherwise, quit trying to deny the fact that we [b:d62201193a]have[/b:d62201193a] done our research, and quit griping about how "[b:d62201193a]it's not fair[/b:d62201193a]" when we prove that we have.

This thread is about AA. We are discussing our problems with the program of AA.
[b:d62201193a]I for one am not here to promote, endorse, or advocate any particular approach to rehabilitation from substance abuse.[/b:d62201193a]
I did post links in order to show that alternatives do indeed exist.
[b:d62201193a]I am here to discuss what I consider to be flaws within the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, the ways in which i believe it has harmed people i know, and certain characteristics that i believe it has in common with LGATs and cults.[/b:d62201193a]

You might also consider this:
The way in which you have responded to any questioning or criticism of AA is alarmingly similar to the methods by which other organizations, those considered "harmful", defend themselves from allegations of abuse or "cultishness".
[b:d62201193a]Your attacks on us are only helping to prove our point.[/b:d62201193a]