colter;

You want me to tell you what my "angle" is?

Why are you here?

I'm interested in cults. I have encountered a few over the course of my life.
I find this forum interesting.

I don't have an angle.

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barabara
colter;

You want me to tell you what my "angle" is?

Why are you here?

I'm interested in cults. I have encountered a few over the course of my life.
I find this forum interesting.

I don't have an angle.

I came here doing some research concerning a very destructive cult located in Sadona Arizona. It is run by a fruit cake who thinks he's Gabriel the angel. People move in and surrender all of their worldly possessions to the "community." They are waiting for a space ship to take them to another world.

I'm a long time student of the Urantia revelation and am interested in religious studies, archeology, history and spirituality......and crappy golf.

As I have said previously I was surprised by the "AA is a cult" thing. I was surprised by the amount of hate speech there is on the net about AA. I simply had never looked into it.

I was aware of Rational Recovery in that the guy that runs that has an underlying theology that is the platform for his rebellion against AA. He thinks AA is run by "the beast."


Colter

colter asks:

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barabara:

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I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.

I can see that "you believe" this but it simply isn't true. Can you provide evidence for the gallery of this please????

I have stated my belief. By belief, I mean opinion based on experience. I never claimed this to be a scientific fact.

Unlike the motivation for going to a bar, the newcomer to AA is motivated by desperation and a need for help. [b:37ed2f096c]This puts the newcomer in a position of supplication and heightened vulnerability.[/b:37ed2f096c]
[[color=blue:37ed2f096c]supplicate: (verb)ask or beg for something humbly or earnestly [/color:37ed2f096c]]
[b:37ed2f096c]AA members who claim to have the answers and the ability to help the supplicant are in a position of power over him, if the supplicant accepts said help.[/b:37ed2f096c]

When there are highly manipulative and unethical persons in a position of power over the supplicant, it is quite likely that they will use this power.
I saw it with my own two eyes, before and after the meetings, many times.

Whether or not the claim is valid, when a manipulative person can point to passages in the accepted [b:37ed2f096c]"sacred text"[/b:37ed2f096c], (ie. the Big Book), that can be interpreted as justification for his/her manipulative behavior, it is the equivalent of giving his/her manipulative behavior the stamp of sacred approval.

This type of justification I also witnessed, many times.

Someone going to a bar is looking for a drink. Their guard is up, and they know what to expect.
Someone going to an AA meeting is begging for help with a problem. They have dropped their guard.
Being manipulated by fellow AA members who claim to be there to help you with your drinking problem is the equivalent of being abused by your priest.

If someone, particularly someone of standing or someone with power within a church group, uses the Bible to justify bad behavior within their church group, and is allowed to do so by said church group, and is not stopped, then the church group is condoning that behavior.
[[color=blue:37ed2f096c]condone: (verb) accept or allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue[/color:37ed2f096c]]

[b:37ed2f096c]If the AA organization does not do everything in their power to condemn and arrest manipulative and abusive behavior of AA members towards newcomers to AA, they are condoning the behavior of those manipulative people.[/b:37ed2f096c]

[b:37ed2f096c]What is AA doing to try to stop manipulative and exploitive treatment of newcomers to AA by other members?[/color:37ed2f096c][/b:37ed2f096c]

You admitted that such behaviors exist. I don't think I need to point that out with quotations.

Can you answer this question?

[b:37ed2f096c]From what I can see, many AA believers only try to get everyone to stop talking and writing about it, and attack those who do, calling them liars, fabricators, claiming they "have an agenda", saying "they are jealous psychotherapists, etc. etc".[/b:37ed2f096c]

When someone attempts to cover up, hide, and deny the existence of abuse, they are [b:37ed2f096c]condoning[/b:37ed2f096c] such abuse, not trying to stop it.

I am able to debate this subject with you without accusing you of fabrication. I would like to enjoy the same courtesy.

I don't think I can possibly be more specific than that.

A bloke has written a website about his belief that AA is a cult

[www.orange-papers.org]

seems a very thorough site.
Love
Kath

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Can you answer this question?

From what I can see, many AA believers only try to get everyone to stop talking and writing about it, and attack those who do, calling them liars, fabricators, claiming they "have an agenda", saying "they are jealous psychotherapists, etc. etc".

When someone attempts to cover up, hide, and deny the existence of abuse, they are condoning such abuse, not trying to stop it.

You forgot to include the question....I've done that before, I start talking and forget to include the question. What was it?

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If the AA organization does not do everything in their power to condemn and arrest manipulative and abusive behavior of AA members towards newcomers to AA, they are condoning the behavior of those manipulative people.



You admitted that such behaviors exist. I don't think I need to point that out with quotations.

Can you specifically tell me what manipulations you refer to? Are you talking about AA's trying to convince people to work the program? get a sponsor? work with others? work the steps? trust God? Just what is this abuse you refer to?

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Someone going to a bar is looking for a drink. Their guard is up, and they know what to expect.

That's kind of funny......going to a bar to have a drink with your guard up..........my gaurd always fell asleep and was worthless after I had the drink! :?

Again, what is the specific nature of the abuses that you witnessed before during or after the meeting?

I feel like your asking me to comment on a false dichotomy. Are you referring to a vulnerable man or women who goes to AA for help and meets another person and forms an intimate relationship while still quite new in the program? Is that what you are thinking?

In my area the wisdom of the old timers says don't get into a romantic relationship for at least a year. People who do get into such relationships tend to avoid working the program and getting honest with themselves. Their new partner becomes the obsession and the AA program takes a back seat. When the relationship falls so does the sobriety.


I met a girl who had done the one year thing, I was 6 months sober. We dated for 5 years got married and waited 5 years to have kids. We have now been married 16 years and have three beautiful kids. Should GSO have regulated my relationship with some sort of monitoring?

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Whether or not the claim is valid, when a manipulative person can point to passages in the accepted "sacred text", (ie. the Big Book), that can be interpreted as justification for his/her manipulative behavior, it is the equivalent of giving his/her manipulative behavior the stamp of sacred approval.

I am still getting the impression that you don't like the "God thing in AA." Is that the "manipulation" that you refer to?

If some sanctimonious Big Book thumper goes overboard just quote him the Big Book itself:

"Our book is meant to be suggestive only. [b:8ced5f982c]We realize we know only a little[/b:8ced5f982c]. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us"

It has indeed been a great fact for me!!!!!!!!

Colter

to colter:
The question is in bold red. Are you just being clever?

Yes, you're very funny.

There is no point in discussing this further with you, as you will obviously use any trick at your disposal to obfuscate the argument.

Furthermore, you continually resort to insult to do so.

I am through with you, (but not this topic).

[b:98729bd84b]What is AA doing to try to stop manipulative and exploitive treatment of newcomers to AA by other members?[/b:98729bd84b]

[www.orange-papers.org]
I love this guy!

Two of:

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[b:98729bd84b]The Twelve Biggest Lies of A.A.[/b:98729bd84b]

[b:98729bd84b]Everything good that A.A. members do is Alcoholics Anonymous, but the bad things that A.A. members do is not really A.A... If a sponsor does some despicable thing that is not council-approved to a sponsee, then that doesn't count.[/b:98729bd84b]

No reasonable person would criticize A.A., because A.A. is a wonderful organization that has saved millions.
• Anyone who criticizes Alcoholics Anonymous is just a dry drunk.
• Or he's just somebody who doesn't want to quit drinking.
• Or he's just somebody who doesn't want to get too good too soon.
• Or he's just an atheist who can't stand to hear the terrible 'G' word "God" mentioned.
• Or he's just somebody who is boxing with God.

It seemed to me from attending AA, that AA seeks to show the alcoholic how terrible they are, how destroyed their lives are, the awful things they have done etc etc.

When a person has been thus broken and told they are terrible in a group setting, they are then more vulnerable to others. It reminds me of the behaviour of a LGAT.

Also telling the person they are powerless and such, its all so depressing.

Speaking for myself it was happiness, self-esteem, confidence and relaxation that made it possible for me to no longer need to drink.

I got this through recieving treatment for underlying mental health problems. Like most drinkers, I drank to self-medicate against anxiety, loneliness and other problems.

To receive treatment or counselling for the underlying problems, or to change stressful life circumstances, would make it easier for most drinkers to stop drinking.

Not 'ooh you look terrible, when did you last have a drink' frowning disapproving faces and such that I got at the AA meeting. (I had the shakes, from anxiety and from a dodgy psychiatric med that caused severe parkinsons-like hand tremors.)

It goes against the methodology of most counselling disciplines nowadays, which believe that RAISING people's self esteem is what makes them able to overcome their problems.

Rather than a therapeutic ideology, the standpoint is more of someone admitting they are a 'suffering sinner,' as in some penitential forms of Christianity. Which is of course, what AA grew out of in the first place.
Love
Kath

Hi Kath,

Welcome to the discussion, I agree with your post. In the AA manual we can find this line: [b:8cd6105e2b]Our liquor was but a symptom. So we had to get down to causes and conditions. [/b:8cd6105e2b]

I'm HA ADD, it was very helpful for me to understand what that is and the relationship to my alcoholism.


As you pointed out it is quite possible to go to meetings where the atmosphere takes on a kind of "negative" tone because people are talking about the problem rather than the solution. My home group is a literature meeting, we take topics from the foor and go directly to any of AA's literature to find solutions.

From the AA Book.

"The alcoholic is like a tornado roaring his way through the lives of others. Hearts are broken. Sweet relationships are dead. Affections have been uprooted. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept he home in turmoil. We feel a man is unthinking when he says that sobriety is enough. He is like the farmer who came up out of his cyclone cellar to find his home ruined. To his wife, he remarked, "Don't see anything the matter here, Ma. Ain't it grand the wind stopped blowin'?" Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love."

It is true that drinking is not really what's wrong with alcoholics but I still needed to take responsibility for my behavior and the people that I hurt.

BTW, I had seen that link you provided in the past.I think the individual that wrote it still has anxiety. :wink:

Colter

[www.secularsobriety.org]

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Secular Organizations for Sobriety also known as Save Our Selves is dedicated to providing a path to sobriety, an alternative to those paths depending upon supernatural or religious beliefs. We respect diversity, welcome healthy skepticism, and encourage rational thinking as well as the expression of feelings.

What is SOS?

SOS takes a self-empowerment approach to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from all else. SOS addresses sobriety (abstinence) as “Priority One, no matter what!”

SOS credits the individual for achieving and maintaining his or her own sobriety.

SOS respects recovery in any form, regardless of the path by which it is achieved. It is not opposed to or in competition with any other recovery programs.

SOS supports healthy skepticism and encourages the use of the scientific method to understand alcoholism.

SOS provides a non-religious alternative to AA. They have meetings all over the country and the world.
You might want to tell your lawyer, judge, or probation department about them.
Here is the contact adress if you would like to start an SOS group in your community.
sos@cfiwest.org

SOS is brought to you by the secular humanists!
[www.secularhumanism.org]

[b:d914edca67]What is AA doing to try to stop manipulative and exploitive treatment of newcomers to AA by other members? [/b:d914edca67]

The WSO issued a memo about the exploitation of newcomers by AA sponsors and other members.
[www.guardian.co.uk]

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According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper, within AA "there is a small minority of men and women who operate with sick but hidden agendas, and,... they seek self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential members".
A senior alcohol addiction worker said: "AA [is] in a difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is very difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the people involved are invariably clever."

[b:d914edca67]What have they done to try to stop it, besides issuing a memo to each group leader?[/b:d914edca67]
Why not at least add something like this, as a warning to the newcomer, to be read at the beginning of each meeting, along with the standard introduction?

*Welcome to Alcoholics anonymous! Our organization has recently become aware of abuses of the program committed by some of those professing to be AA members, and we want to do everything in our power to prevent newcomers from being harmed by others in the program.
*Although we are an organization of men and women coming together for the purpose of helping each other stay sober, there may be those in these rooms who do not have that goal foremost in mind.
*We urge the newcomer to remember this at all times, and exercise the same caution with AA members who are strangers that he or she would in any other social setting.
*Although we do rely on God for our strength and sobriety, we cannot expect him to guard us at all times from harm from our fellow man.
*There may be other members who would attempt to exploit us, for money, sex, or other reasons. There may be some who are not here voluntarily, but have been ordered to attend meetings by their families or the courts. Some people may resent being here, and may not be dedicated to sobriety.
*Although we make a pledge to remain anonymous, we are nevertheless human, and we cannot expect others to always honor our anonymity. It is strongly suggested that you exercise care in choosing friends and confidants in AA, as you would in other social settings.
*We will do our best to help the newcomer find a safe and secure place in our organization, as our sobriety, and, more importantly, the sobriety of the newcomer, depends on it. Our primary goal is to help the alcoholic who still suffers, and we will do our best to see that he or she does not suffer at the hands of those who claim to be here to help him.
*If another AA member does manage to take advantage of you, please remember that anyone can be fooled at times, and that it is not necessarily your fault.
*You were not necessarily "asking for it". Good and bad things happen to all people, whether they be wise or naive, kind or unkind.
*Most of the people you meet here will be on your side.
*A few may not be.
*Choose carefully, and take your time.
*Ultimately, it is up to the individual to protect him or herself.
*Please remember to exercise caution.

From the big book, "working with others:

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Your job now is to be at the place where you may be of maximum helpfulness
to others, so never hesitate to go anywhere, if you can be helpful. You should not
hesitate to visit the most sordid spot on earth on such an errand. Keep on the
firing line of life with these motives, and God will keep you unharmed.

That's another part of the big book I have seen interpreted in dangerous ways.
The victim can be, (and often is), blamed for any ill that might befall him.
Other AA members can, and sometimes do, interpret this passage to imply that the victim had "impure" motives, and therefore God did not protect him. I have heard this kind of nonsense from AA members, a lot. (They call it "tough love".)
[b:d914edca67]"God-fearing" people get hurt, sometimes killed, by those they are trying to help, all the time.[/b:d914edca67]