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barabara
All you have to do is delete the double post. It goes away.

You certainly seem to have a deep resentment against the therapeutic community.
Most of the therapists I have known work in charity situations and do so for free, or a very reasonable salary (under $30,000/annum).

But yes, there do seem to be those who are more concerned with profit.
That really doesn't have much to do with AA though.

If I have a beef with the therapeutic community it has more to do with AA members who decide to go into "the business" and charge money for those truths that they have harvested from AA for free.

Barbara what exactly is the source of your resentment for AA?
With that bias or vendetta towards the program are you a competent to dissuade problem drinkers from seeking help there?

Colter

My first AA sponsor was gay; not flaming or anything (he's a civilian computer expert for the U.S. Navy, so he has to engage in a little bit of "passing"), but an ok guy who gave me really sage advice.

The primary purpose of AA is to keep the person sober one more day, unlike !@#$%&! Teen Challenge whose sole purpose is to brainwash you into thinking you can actually [i:2e7ad57006]pray[/i:2e7ad57006] away alcoholism and drug addiction. I completed the one-year TC program at "the castle" in Riverside, CA. It sucks. The day after I got home I got loaded on Xanax and Jack Daniels. After a year in that over-the-top hellhole, I needed a good long buzz. Teen Challenge is a cash cow, plain and simple. Except you pull the plow.

Read more about So. California Teen Challenge in this first installment:
[teenchallengeunmasked.blogspot.com]

I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for this one, but so be it. I'll stand up and say that AA ruined my childhood. My father has been in and out of AA for years. He learned very early on through meetings to use his drinking as a means to control us. He'd threaten to start drinking again every time a problem came up. That was dad's way of shutting us up when we misbehaved or when somebody asked him why he couldn't get off his lazy butt and get a job. He beat us for the smallest things then his AA buddies told him he didn't have any control over it because he had a disease. They told my mom to just be "more supportive" of him and his recovery and everything would be ok. More supportive meant give in to his selfsh me first attitude and let the kids suffer. They tried to force us to go to meetings for children of AA members when we were older and when we refused, they told my dad that we were horrible, selfish children.

Through AA, my dad learned how to hide his continued drinking, how to bilk other members for money and charity, how to cheat on his wife with female members and how to be an all around abusive SOB and justify it all. I won't even get in to the number of shady characters he brought home from meetings. My last straw was when my father actually told me to dump the man I ended up marrying so I could marry one of his AA buddies. When he was in AA, my dad was never responsible for anyting, it was always somebody else's fault. Blaming a child for your drinking and your voilence is lower than low in my opinion.

By the way, I just spoke with the gentleman from RR last week and he seemed just fine to me. I'm studying social work and I needed an alternative to AA for my addiction class. They're trying to make me go to an AA meeting to observe. I have no desire to do so, AA caused me enough trauma, I don't need any more.

If you are looking for an alternative to AA, I also recommend SMART. Its not so rabid anti-AA as RR has become, and it also focuses on CBT.

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IndieQueen
I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for this one, but so be it. I'll stand up and say that AA ruined my childhood. My father has been in and out of AA for years. He learned very early on through meetings to use his drinking as a means to control us. He'd threaten to start drinking again every time a problem came up. That was dad's way of shutting us up when we misbehaved or when somebody asked him why he couldn't get off his lazy butt and get a job. He beat us for the smallest things then his AA buddies told him he didn't have any control over it because he had a disease. They told my mom to just be "more supportive" of him and his recovery and everything would be ok. More supportive meant give in to his selfsh me first attitude and let the kids suffer. They tried to force us to go to meetings for children of AA members when we were older and when we refused, they told my dad that we were horrible, selfish children.

Through AA, my dad learned how to hide his continued drinking, how to bilk other members for money and charity, how to cheat on his wife with female members and how to be an all around abusive SOB and justify it all. I won't even get in to the number of shady characters he brought home from meetings. My last straw was when my father actually told me to dump the man I ended up marrying so I could marry one of his AA buddies. When he was in AA, my dad was never responsible for anyting, it was always somebody else's fault. Blaming a child for your drinking and your voilence is lower than low in my opinion.

By the way, I just spoke with the gentleman from RR last week and he seemed just fine to me. I'm studying social work and I needed an alternative to AA for my addiction class. They're trying to make me go to an AA meeting to observe. I have no desire to do so, AA caused me enough trauma, I don't need any more.

Hi Indian queen,


Not wanting to "rake you over the coals" or anything but I did want to respond to you very unfortunate expeiriance with an AA member.

AA cannot be responsible for the dry-drunk behavior of it's members anymore than the national highway administration can be resposible for how people drive on their roads.

It sounds like your opinion of AA is theroughly destroyed but for anyone sinserely seeking understanding of AA on this thread I want to respond to your post.

* "Many are called but few choose" to actually surrender and work the AA program. People can and do "hang around AA" without ever working the program, they stay dry. A dry drunk exhibits all of the personality characteristics of a drunk only they may not be drinking. A dry bender shows the ture selfish personality of the individual only without alcohol to blame.

* AA didn't ruin your childhood, your father did.

* AA does not tech "drinking as a means of controlling" anyone, that is the sick mind of the alcoholic.

* You sadly told us that " He beat us for the smallest things then his AA buddies told him he didn't have any control over it because he had a disease." That is NOT AA teaching at all!!!!! It sounds like his AA buddies were also dry drunks (if that is in fact what they told him) "Birds of a feather flock together." In AA we have a saying, "stick with the winners." People who come to AA and look for "an easier softer way" tend to gravitate to towards like minded members. They rarely stay sober!

* You wrote: Through AA, my dad learned how to hide his continued drinking, how to bilk other members for money and charity, how to cheat on his wife with female members and how to be an all around abusive SOB and justify it all. I won't even get in to the number of shady characters he brought home from meetings. My last straw was when my father actually told me to dump the man I ended up marrying so I could marry one of his AA buddies. When he was in AA, my dad was never responsible for anything, it was always somebody else's fault. Blaming a child for your drinking and your violence is lower than low in my opinion. [/color:a8d5412f8c]

Nothing could be further from AA thinking. I'm sorry, AA did not teach this to your dad, he was simply being a typical drunk and [b:a8d5412f8c]has managed to convince you to blame AA and not him.[/b:a8d5412f8c]

* It is quite possible that you do not want to attend AA for your class studies because your somehow comfortable blaming AA for you fathers deplorable behavior. What if you go to an AA meeting and discover that it's actually your fathers fault and not AA?

Where I go to AA if we knew that someone was in the program and behaving like that we would jerk a knot in him quick!!!!

Best of luck with you social work carrier. :)

I would be gladd to answer any question about the program.
Colter

I saw many people exhibit this type of behavior, (described by Indie Queen), within AA.
Many people say, in AA, that "any day sober is a good day", (no matter what else they did or did not do). Many also say, frequently, that "AA is a selfish program".

"True believers" cannot bear any criticism of AA, and will tolerate no negative stories about other AA members or what you witness at meetings.

[b:038f15ac33]The Big Book says that the wife and family of an alcoholic can cause him to relapse. It is clearly stated in "to wives" in "the Big Book".[/b:038f15ac33]
"To wives" also says that he may seek out other companionship, "not always another man".

No one stops other members for behaving in this fashion. At absolute worst, they are shunned, but I did not even see this happen. Members cannot stop other members from doing as they please. There are no checks and balances within individual groups, on the whole.

A newcomer to AA, in particular a single woman, needs to be aware of the likelihood of encountering predatorial behavior from some of the other people who go to AA meetings, (and not just sexual predators).
They need to keep their wits about them. Many types of antisocial behavior are engaged in by AA members.
[b:038f15ac33]Truly caring, moral, and responsible "oldtimers" will warn newcomers about this.[/b:038f15ac33]

Colter. I appreciate your comments, however, you really aren't in a position to judge what did or did not ruin my childhood are you? Unless you were there, you have absolutely no idea of the damage done to myself and my family as a result of my dad's involvement with AA. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know exactly how patronizing you sounded in your response.

Unless you are a therapist with credentials you are also not in a position to judge why the mere thought of walking in to an AA meeting to observe sends me in to fits of anxiety. My real therapist certainly is and she agrees it would be too much.

Yes, AA worked for you. Great for you, I'm sincerely happy for you. But, it does not work for everybody and it does damage lives. You asked for one person to stand up and say "AA ruined my life." I stood up and said "AA ruined my childhood" and you convenienlty pooh-poohed every statement I made. I expected no less than that to be honest, but I'm a benefit of the doubt type person. See, it's a never-ending cycle. You ask for examples, we give examples, you brush them aside. I"ve dealt with that every time I say one bad word about AA. It's one of the reasons I'll keep a file of alternative programs for my clients.

There are misrepresentation in Barbs post.

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Many people say, in AA, that "any day sober is a good day", ([b:850091c879]no matter what else they did or did not do)[/color:850091c879] [/b:850091c879]. Many also say, frequently, that "AA is a selfish program".

The part in blue is blatantly false! Whenever I have heard the term "any day sober is a good day" the context is generally a supportive statement for one who is in poor spirits, depressed, angry etc. The true context of this saying is intended to help a person gain perspective when they may see no good reason to continue on staying sober.

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"True believers" cannot bear any criticism of AA, and will tolerate no negative stories about other AA members or what you witness at meetings.

People who actually work the AA program and take the time to read the literature to gain an understanding of what it is are all to willing to point out abuses and misapplication of AA.
"True believers" believe in God and understand that AA is about that relationship.

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The Big Book says that the wife and family of an alcoholic can cause him to relapse. It is clearly stated in "to wives" in "the Big Book".

Again that's more "Barb Anonymous" not AA:

chapter To Wives
Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you be coming home drunk. If you are satisfied he really wants to get over drinking, you need not be alarmed. Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bad thing in some cases. [b:850091c879]Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive.[/b:850091c879] You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency -- [b:850091c879]he will know of it[/b:850091c879]. Cheer him up and ask him how you can be still more helpful.
The slightest sign of fear or intolerance may lessen your husband's chance or recovery. In a weak moment he may take your dislike of his high-stepping friends as one of those [b:850091c879]insanely trivial excuses to drink[/size:850091c879].[/b:850091c879]
We never, never try to arrange a man's life so as to shield him from temptation. The slightest disposition on your part to guide his appointment or his affairs so he will not be tempted will be noticed. Make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes. This is important. If he gets drunk, don't blame yourself. God has either removed your husband's liquor problem or He has not.[/size:850091c879] If not, it had better be found out right away. Then you and your husband can get right down to fundamentals. If a repetition is to be prevented, place the problem, along with everything else, in God's hands. [/size:850091c879]

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"To wives" also says that he may seek out other companionship, "not always another man".
No one stops other members for behaving in this fashion. At absolute worst, they are shunned, but I did not even see this happen.

Again more misrepresentation of the context of adultery.
chapter To Wives
[b:850091c879] Sometimes there were other women. How heartbreaking was this discovery; how cruel to be told they understood our men as we did not!
[/b:850091c879]
Adultery is wrong, wrong, wrong and the context in the AA Big Book is about dealing with affairs that we had in the past not condoning affairs that a member may sleeeeze into in AA!

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A newcomer to AA, in particular a single woman, needs to be aware of the likelihood of encountering predatorial behavior from some of the other people who go to AA meetings, (and not just sexual predators).
They need to keep their wits about them. Many types of antisocial behavior are engaged in by AA members.
Truly caring, moral, and responsible "oldtimers" will warn newcomers about this.

Goes both ways.
The statement that "many types of antisocial behavior are engaged in by AA members." Gross exaggeration. The meeting last an hour, how much can we possibly do in the meeting in an hour!

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There are no checks and balances within individual groups, on the whole.

Oh, there is but in AA we call it "life or death." God is the "check and balance for us."

Other then all that good post Barb. :wink:
Colter

Colter:
Unless you are omniscient, (ie. God), you do not have the right to say that my experiences were not as I claim them to have been.
You do not, to my knowledge, know me, or even have been to the same meetings as I.

Here is where the Big Book holds the wife responsible if her husband relapses:

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If he gets the idea that you are a nag or a killjoy, your chance of accomplishing anything useful may be zero. [b:d8f66b26cb]He will use that as an excuse to drink more. He will tell you he is misunderstood.[/b:d8f66b26cb] This may lead to lonely evenings for you. He may seek someone else to console him--not always another man.

The Big Book says "will", not "may", "use that as an excuse to drink".

Here the Big Book tells the wife [b:d8f66b26cb]not[/b:d8f66b26cb] to side with the children against their father:

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The same principle applies in dealing with the children. Unless they actually need protection from their father, [b:d8f66b26cb]it is best not to take sides in any argument he has with them while drinking[/b:d8f66b26cb].

Once again, the wife is held responsible for her husband's sobriety:

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Starting from a speck on the domestic horizon, great thunderclouds of dispute may gather. These family dissensions are very dangerous, [b:d8f66b26cb]especially to your husband. Often you must carry the burden of avoiding them or keeping them under control.[/b:d8f66b26cb] Never forget that resentment is a deadly hazard to an alcoholic. We do not mean that you have to agree with you husband whenever there is an honest difference of opinion. Just be careful not to disagree in a resentful or critical spirit.

Here is where the wife is told to go along with her husband regardless of her own desires:

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Still another difficulty is that you may become jealous of the attention he bestows on other people, especially alcoholics. You have been starving for his companionship, yet he spends long hours helping other men and their families. You feel he should now be yours.
[b:d8f66b26cb]We suggest that you direct some of your thought to the wives of his new alcoholic friends[/b:d8f66b26cb].

And, finally, she is once again reminded that it is her fault if he relapses:

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[b:d8f66b26cb]The slightest sign of fear or intolerance may lessen your husband's chance or recovery[/b:d8f66b26cb]. In a weak moment he may take your dislike of his high-stepping friends as one of those insanely trivial excuses to drink.

These quotes are taken as written from the Big Book of Alcoholics anonymous.
I have neither the motivation nor the inclination to fabricate stories about AA.
[b:d8f66b26cb]It is certainly well within the realm of believability that certain men, (or women), would use the Big book and the program to abuse, manipulate, and control their families.[/b:d8f66b26cb] I have seen it happen. The children suffered, at least to the same degree that they would have had their parent still been drinking openly.

If I had a parent or spouse who used the Big Book and AA rhetoric to abuse and manipulate me, I would not look kindly towards the organization, either. I certainly would not wish to expose myself to more of the same by going to meetings.

One of the things I find most cult-like and peculiar is the reaction some AA members have to hearing criticism of what goes on among group members.

Barbara,

If you could for a moment take note of what I think is a fundamental misunderstanding in our disagreement about AA. In principle what I keep hearing you criticize is ( AA [i:e37e4952d8]the program[/i:e37e4952d8]) and not drawing an important distinction between the [i:e37e4952d8]behavior of individuals[/i:e37e4952d8] who go to AA and the 12 steps, 12 traditions etc.

I've been to crappy AA meetings, I've known of people who go to AA meetings to do terrible things. I've worked with other alcoholics who did not stay sober and returned to a life of crime and unseemly behavior but none of that is the [i:e37e4952d8]fault of the AA program[/i:e37e4952d8] and certainly none of this retrogressive, self centered, self destructive behavior can be blamed on some intrinsic flaw.

On the contrary I've seen people who most members had little hope could recover, people who the courts were loath to deal with, who had been abandoned in disgusts by family members change and go on to lead remarkable, honest, selfless and accomplished lives.

I will let observers of this debate read the chapter To Wives and come to their own conclusions about the intent of the writing for the family but I get the impression that you [i:e37e4952d8]see what you want to see.[/i:e37e4952d8]

All the chapters of the Big Book which proceed "To Wives" leave no room for the alcoholic to blame anyone for his behavior.

If an AA member drunk or sober comes home and abuses his family then he should be arrested and prosecuted for domestic violence. The Big Book merely offers ways in which "changed attitudes can aid recovery." It helps wives and family members know what to expect and how they can be helpful [b:e37e4952d8]if they want to be helpful at all![/b:e37e4952d8]
The implication that AA or its Big Book grants any license for abuse of any kind is simply a deliberate misrepresentation or at best uneducated ignorance of what the program is.

It's nothing personal Barbara :wink:

Colter