No, you are wrong.
We have a very different point of view altogether.

I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.
I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages [b:4a8735970b]some of[/b:4a8735970b] the abhorrent behavior.
I believe that "letting go and letting God" [b:4a8735970b]can be[/b:4a8735970b] interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.
I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that [b:4a8735970b]that[/b:4a8735970b] is the cause of much harm to many.

I also believe that the concept of[b:4a8735970b] "powerlessness"[/b:4a8735970b] and the disease theory of addiction and alcoholism give many an excuse to avoid exercising control over their own behavior that in reality they are capable of.
By Behavior I am not speaking specifically of drinking or using.

[b:4a8735970b]I do not believe, as you claimed previously, that the program of AA is sacred.[/b:4a8735970b] I believe that it was an attempt by some very flawed, egotistical people to possibly help themselves and others, but that in many ways they were corrupted by their own fame, as well as [b:4a8735970b]allowing[/b:4a8735970b] themselves to indulge their own defects of character.

I think the newcomer to AA,[b:4a8735970b] in particular the naive newcomer and the female newcomer[/b:4a8735970b], should exercise extreme caution in who they listen to at meetings, and that they should remember to use whatever sense they have at all times.

[b:4a8735970b]IMO, there is absolutely nothing "sacred" about AA.[/b:4a8735970b]

It is an organization of very flawed people getting together for a [b:4a8735970b]variety of reasons[/b:4a8735970b], only one of which is an attempt to stay sober.
(And, from the post above, you know this, too, but don't like to see it in writing.)

Other than that, I think AA is just fine.
There is nothing personal in my response, either.

LOL!.......and it is with that pre conceived opinion of AA that you make your un bias assessment?????? LOL!

AA, meet the secular humanist revolt!

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I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.

Hundreds of thousands of AA groups and Millions of recovered alcoholics smile at you with humility and compassionately ask, " did you say something about egotism"?????

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I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.

I can see that "you believe" this but it simply isn't true. Can you provide evidence for the gallery of this please????

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I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.

If and when this principle is abused it is not part of the AA program.

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I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that that is the cause of much harm to many.

This topic is covered at length in AA literature and commonly in meetings. It's when we think we know what Gods will is[b:8fef415ec7] for other people [/b:8fef415ec7]that we get into trouble. We pray for a knowledge of Gods will [b:8fef415ec7]for us [/b:8fef415ec7]and the[b:8fef415ec7] power[/b:8fef415ec7] to carry that out.

People who crash planes into buildings on behalf of God have in fact created God [b:8fef415ec7]in mans image[/b:8fef415ec7]. They are not listening to God they are listening to [b:8fef415ec7]themselves[/b:8fef415ec7] and their hatred for others.

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I also believe that the concept of "powerlessness" and the disease theory of addiction and alcoholism give many an excuse to avoid exercising control over their own behavior that in reality they are capable of.
By Behavior I am not speaking specifically of drinking or using.

" The [b:8fef415ec7]great obsession [/b:8fef415ec7]of every abnormal drinker is that he or she may one day drink like a gentlemen or gentle-lady. Many persue it into the gates of insanity or death."

By admitting powerlessness over alcohol we gain strength.

If you are referring to the absurd extremes that [u:8fef415ec7]some AA members [/u:8fef415ec7]carry this concept to then I agree but again that's not the AA program but rather evolved applications of the core principle as it relates to addiction.

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I do not believe, as you claimed previously, that the program of AA is sacred. I believe that it was an attempt by some very flawed, egotistical people to possibly help themselves and others, but that in many ways they were corrupted by their own fame, as well as allowing themselves to indulge their own defects of character.

AA is a community of alcoholic people trying to get help. It has no campus or authoritative structure. We believe that God and God alone is the ultimate authority as he speaks in the group conscience. All AA's are equal.

The well documented flaws of Bill Wilson or any other AA members associated with the founding of AA are [b:8fef415ec7]NOT THE AA PROGRAM.[/b:8fef415ec7]

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It is an organization of very flawed people getting together for a variety of reasons, only one of which is an attempt to stay sober.
(And, from the post above, you know this, too, but don't like to see it in writing.)

Thanks for reminding me (again) of how screwed up we are from up there on your high horse.

We honestly don't get many non alcoholic people at the AA meeting who are looking for entertainment.

AA [b:8fef415ec7]as a fellowship,[/b:8fef415ec7] made up of imperfect people, has all the same flaws common to the society in which the fellowship exists. AA has no "bricks and morter," it is an anonymus invisible community inside the disfunctional world that we are all a part of.

Attempting to segregate AA from society and then pasting the imperfections of it's members on the program itself is a conceptual illusion.


Colter

You have certainly demonstrated your ability to debate a point through insult, insinuation, and ad-hominem argument.
You are making a lot of assumptions about others on this thread.
I have not posted my experiences for your entertainment.

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barabara
You have certainly demonstrated your ability to debate a point through insult, insinuation, and ad-hominem argument.
You are making a lot of assumptions about others on this thread.
I have not posted my experiences for your entertainment.

:( Oh Barbara, come on now. Perhaps my sarcastic sense of humor doesn't translate well in writing. I have not attempted to insult you or add any homonym :wink:

Assumptions? I've been open about myself and my experience here. Extrapolating from your post I can only draw conclusions about why your on this campaign against AA.

At the end of the day I don't care what you think of AA and AA really doesn't either, what I care about is the program being misrepresented by someone with an agenda. I care about the suffering alcoholic who my "google by" in search of help but to be misinformed about what the program is before they have had a chance to read the literature and decide for themselves.

I came to the RR forum for an entirely different matter and was surprised to find these accusations and attacks on AA.

Colter

Colter:

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I've been through many phases in my recovery "[b:27ec04b0e6]rigidity[/b:27ec04b0e6]" being one of them.

Having been part of a rigid (self righteous) AA group for several years I can sympathize with Bonnies assessment. The whole experience was healthy for me in that I finally reached that day of freedom where I could see I had grown beyond the need for such and I could see the negative influence of the "fundamentalist" group.

I would agree that AA has influential "clicks" of varying orthodoxy etc.

I've been there and done that. I came out the other side a stronger more mature person.

You may be right I me still be a little immature. I'm not a spokesman for AA nor do we have any,

I like my mind, I'm fiercely independent in my thinking and am always open to new spiritual and scientific truths.

[b:27ec04b0e6]I think the real problem for secularists is the idea of faith in God, on that basis you think every spiritual group is a cult. [/b:27ec04b0e6]

"True believers" believe in God and understand that AA is about that relationship.

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I find it ironic that alcoholics who spend their lives in bars and/or with dubious moraly lax individuals would be concerned about "horny" people at an AA meeting.
[b:27ec04b0e6]There are women only meetings for the irresistibly beautiful to go to[/b:27ec04b0e6].

[b:27ec04b0e6]When I was referring to "irresistibly beautiful" I was being tongue in cheek kidding[/b:27ec04b0e6] . It was a reference to the EGO's of women who use the "their all men" excuse to avoid getting honest with themselves.

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The professional community of [b:27ec04b0e6]intellectual liberal[/b:27ec04b0e6] types have often been critics of AA out of professional jealousy. AA can do something that they can't, help the alcoholic get sober.

What we see is the EGO's of the therapists getting "tweaked" a little bit just as religions do by the fact that the 12 steps have been able to do something that they cannot.

If I have a beef with the therapeutic community it has more to do with AA members who decide to go into "the business" and charge money for those truths that they have harvested from AA for free.

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AA didn't ruin your childhood, your father did.
It is quite possible that you do not want to attend AA for your class studies because your somehow comfortable blaming AA for you fathers deplorable behavior.
Best of luck with you social work carrier.

I guess we're just liars.

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You are misrepresenting AA because of your own grudge.
There are misrepresentation in Barbs post.
The part in blue is blatantly false!
Again that's more "Barb Anonymous" not AA:
It's nothing personal Barbara
Oh Barbara, come on now.[b:27ec04b0e6] Perhaps my sarcastic sense of humor doesn't translate well in writing[/b:27ec04b0e6]. I have not attempted to insult you or add any homonym
Assumptions? I've been open about myself and my experience here. Extrapolating from your post I can only draw conclusions about why your on this campaign against AA.
At the end of the day I don't care what you think of AA and AA really doesn't either, what I care about is the program being misrepresented by someone with an agenda.

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The statement that "many types of antisocial behavior are engaged in by AA members." Gross exaggeration. The meeting last an hour, how much can we possibly do in the meeting in an hour!

I've been to crappy AA meetings, I've known of people who go to AA meetings to do terrible things.

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[b:27ec04b0e6]AA, meet the secular humanist revolt![/b:27ec04b0e6]

OK, have it your way, then:
[www.americanatheist.org]

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As the rise of nonreligious self-help groups implies, the AA death grip on the addiction care system of America, though yet strong, has loosened. The struggle has begun. Armed with the Constitution, reason, and right, bantam groups now wrestle the Twelve Step gargantuan for the right to serve the American public with secular alternatives.

Formidable in its own right, the AA colossus commands powerful allies in all branches and levels of government, the medical establishment, and within the religious community. AA – like all religions – will fight to maintain its power.

To triumph we must be resolute. We need never allow ourselves or those we love to be coerced into kneeling at the “sacred” altar of AA.

Shalom

....ahhhhhhh, links to the "American Aithiest" web site. We're getting warmer Barbara.

Barbara, the courts send people to AA because they are wize enough and sometimes compasionate enough to see that the problem with many petty criminals is alcohol and drug addiction.........and the courts know that AA has worked where jail has not.

Again, your trying to lump the personal behavior of the community of alcoholics who attend AA meetings with the AA program itself. [/size:379248f797]

If someone came to you for counceling at say, a Region 10 center and that individual went out and had an affair would it be propper to blame (you)? Blame Region 10?

Is Christ responsible for the behavior of the Catholic church?

you have links? I have links to. :lol:

[b:379248f797] SECULAR TOTALITARIANISM[/b:379248f797]


But even after materialism and mechanism have been more or less vanquished, the devastating influence of twentieth-century secularism will still blight the spiritual experience of millions of unsuspecting souls.

Modern secularism has been fostered by two world-wide influences. The father of secularism was the narrow-minded and godless attitude of nineteenth- and twentieth-century so-called science--atheistic science. The mother of modern secularism was the totalitarian medieval Christian church. Secularism had its inception as a rising protest against the almost complete domination of Western civilization by the institutionalized Christian church.

At the begining of the 20th century, the prevailing intellectual and philosophical climate of both European and American life was decidedly secular--humanistic. For three hundred years Western thinking has been progressively secularized. Religion has become more and more a nominal influence, largely a ritualistic exercise. The majority of professed Christians of Western civilization are unwittingly actual secularists.

It required a great power, a mighty influence, to free the thinking and living of the Western peoples from the withering grasp of a totalitarian ecclesiastical domination. Secularism did break the bonds of church control, and now in turn it threatens to establish a new and godless type of mastery over the hearts and minds of modern man. The tyrannical and dictatorial political state is the direct offspring of scientific materialism and philosophic secularism. Secularism no sooner frees man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state. Secularism frees man from ecclesiastical slavery only to betray him into the tyranny of political and economic slavery.

Materialism denies God, secularism simply ignores him; at least that was the earlier attitude. More recently, secularism has assumed a more militant attitude, assuming to take the place [/color:379248f797]of the religion whose totalitarian bondage it onetime resisted.[/size:379248f797] [b:379248f797]Twentieth-century secularism tends to affirm that man does not need God.[/b:379248f797] But beware! this godless philosophy of human society will lead only to unrest, animosity, unhappiness, war, and world-wide disaster.

Secularism can never bring peace to mankind. Nothing can take the place of God in human society. But mark you well! do not be quick to surrender the beneficent gains of the secular revolt from ecclesiastical totalitarianism. Western civilization today enjoys many liberties and satisfactions as a result of the secular revolt. The great mistake of secularism was this: [b:379248f797]In revolting against the almost total control of life by religious authority, and after attaining the liberation from such ecclesiastical tyranny, the secularists went on to institute a revolt against God himself, sometimes tacitly[/size:379248f797] and sometimes openly.[/b:379248f797]

To the secularistic revolt you owe the amazing creativity of American industrialism and the unprecedented material progress of Western civilization. [b:379248f797]And because the secularistic revolt went too far and lost sight of God and true religion, there also followed the unlooked-for harvest of world wars and international unsettledness.[/b:379248f797]

It is not necessary to sacrifice faith in God in order to enjoy the blessings of the modern secularistic revolt: tolerance, social service, democratic government, and civil liberties.[b:379248f797] It was not necessary for the secularists to antagonize true religion in order to promote science and to advance education.[/b:379248f797]


But secularism is not the sole parent of all these recent gains in the enlargement of living. Behind the gains of the twentieth century are not only science and secularism but also the unrecognized and unacknowledged spiritual workings of the life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth.

Without God, without religion, scientific secularism can never co-ordinate its forces, harmonize its divergent and rivalrous interests, races, and nationalisms. This secularistic human society, notwithstanding its unparalleled materialistic achievement,[b:379248f797] is slowly disintegrating. [/b:379248f797]The chief cohesive force resisting this disintegration of antagonism is nationalism. And nationalism is the chief barrier to world peace.

[b:379248f797] The inherent weakness of secularism is that it discards ethics and religion for politics and power.[/b:379248f797] You simply cannot establish the brotherhood of men while ignoring or denying the fatherhood of God.

Secular social and political optimism is an illusion. Without God, neither freedom and liberty, nor property and wealth will lead to peace.

The complete secularization of science, education, industry, and society can lead only to disaster. During the first third of the twentieth century civilization killed more human beings than were killed during the whole of the Christian dispensation up to that time. And this is only the beginning of the dire harvest of materialism and secularism; still more terrible destruction is yet to come. UB 1955

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I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.
I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.
I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.
I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that that is the cause of much harm to many.

Some therapist, whose God is intellectualism and the mental science's abhor AA because the very foundation of AA is trusting God. Secular counselors who may grant some flighty worthiness to spirituality as a secondary hobby don't like the idea of people turning their life and will over to a God.



............ but secular therapist don't mind being in the "God position" themselves. :wink:

Colter

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IndieQueen
Colter. I appreciate your comments, however, you really aren't in a position to judge what did or did not ruin my childhood are you? Unless you were there, you have absolutely no idea of the damage done to myself and my family as a result of my dad's involvement with AA. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know exactly how patronizing you sounded in your response.

Unless you are a therapist with credentials you are also not in a position to judge why the mere thought of walking in to an AA meeting to observe sends me in to fits of anxiety. My real therapist certainly is and she agrees it would be too much.

Yes, AA worked for you. Great for you, I'm sincerely happy for you. But, it does not work for everybody and it does damage lives. You asked for one person to stand up and say "AA ruined my life." I stood up and said "AA ruined my childhood" and you convenienlty pooh-poohed every statement I made. I expected no less than that to be honest, but I'm a benefit of the doubt type person. See, it's a never-ending cycle. You ask for examples, we give examples, you brush them aside. I"ve dealt with that every time I say one bad word about AA. It's one of the reasons I'll keep a file of alternative programs for my clients.

IndieQueen,

I'm sorry that your dad hurt you. In your mind your dad = AA and so you are carrying a resentment for AA. Further you are planting the seeds of that soul sickness in others in your capacity as a councillor and it is completely unfounded!

If you had ever taken the time to study the AA program you would have encountered the following in the literature.



From the AA program:

Selfishness-self-centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn´t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God´s help.

This is the how and the why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn´t work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most Good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom.


*We did exactly the same thing with our lives. We took stock honestly. First, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure. Being convinced that self, manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations.

Resentment is the 'number one' offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease, for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick. When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically. In dealing with resentments, we set them on paper. We listed people, institutions or principle with who we were angry. We asked ourselves why we were angry. In most cases it was found that our self-esteem, our pocketbooks, our ambitions, our personal relationships, (including sex) were hurt or threatened. So we were sore. We were 'burned up.' On our grudge list we set opposite each name our injuries. Was it our self-esteem, our security, our ambitions, our personal, or sex relations, which had been interfered with?

*We went back through our lives. Nothing counted but thoroughness and honesty. When we were finished we considered it carefully.

*Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other man´s. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set these matters straight.

*We reviewed our fears thoroughly. We put them on paper, even though we had no resentment in connection with them. We asked ourselves why we had them. Wasn´t it because self-reliance failed us? Self-reliance was good as far as it went, but it didn´t go far enough. Some of us once had great self-confidence, but it didn´t fully solve the fear problem, or any other. When it made us cocky, it was worse.

Perhaps there is a better way-we think so. For we are now on a different basis of trusting and relying upon God. We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves. We are in the world to play the role He assigns. Just to the extent that we do as we think He would have us, and humbly rely on Him, does He enable us to match calamity with serenity.

We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator. We can laugh at those who think spirituality the way of weakness. Paradoxically, it is the way of strength. The verdict of the ages is that faith means courage. All men of faith have courage. They trust their God. We never apologize for God. Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do. We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be. At once, we commence to outgrow fear.


[b:52db3800b9]About sex[/b:52db3800b9]

*We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on paper and looked at it.

*Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are facts out of our experience.

In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this test-was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.

Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm, provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. in meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter. The right answer will come, if we want it.


*HAVING MADE our personal inventory, what shall we do about it? We have been trying to get a new attitude, a new relationship with our Creator, and to discover the obstacles in our path. We have admitted certain defects; we have ascertained in a rough way what the trouble is; we have put our finger on the weak times in our personal inventory. Now these are about to be cast out. This requires action on our part, which, when completed, will mean that we have admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our defects. This brings us to the Fifth Step in the program of recovery mentioned in the preceding chapter.

This is perhaps difficult-especially discussing our defects with another person. We think we have done well enough in admitting these things to ourselves. There is doubt about that. In actual practice, we usually find a solitary self-appraisal insufficient. Many of us thought it necessary to go much further. We will be more reconciled to discussing ourselves with another person when we see good reasons why we should do so. The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome drinking. Time after time newcomers have tried to keep to themselves certain facts about their lives. Trying to avoid this humbling experience, they have turned to easier methods.

invariably they got drunk. Having persevered with the rest of the program, they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning. They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty, in the sense we find it necessary, until they told someone else all their life story.

More than most people, the alcoholic leads a double life. He is very much the actor. To the outer world he presents his stage character. This is the one he likes his fellows to see. He wants to enjoy a certain reputation, but knows in his heart he doesn’t deserve it.

The inconsistency is made worse by the things he does on his sprees. Coming to his sense, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers. These memories are a nightmare. He trembles to think someone might have observed him. As far as he can, he pushes these memories far inside himself. He hopes they will never see the light of day. He is under constant fear and tension-that makes for more drinking.

Psychologists are inclined to agree with us. We have spent thousands of dollars for examinations. We know but few instances where we have given these doctors a fair break. We have seldom told them the whole truth nor have we followed their advice. Unwilling to be honest with these sympathetic men, we were honest with no one else. Small wonder many in the medical profession have a low opinion of alcoholics and their chance for recovery!

We must be entirely honest with somebody if we expect to live long or happily in this world. Rightly and naturally, we think well before we choose the person or persons with whom to take this intimate and confidential step. Those of us belonging to a religious denomination which requires confession must, and of course, will want to go to the properly appointed authority whose duty it is to receive it. Though we have no religious conception, we may still do well to talk with someone ordained by an established religion. We often find such a person quick to see and understand our problem. Of course, we sometimes encounter people who do not understand alcoholics.

If we cannot or would rather not do this, we search our acquaintance for a close-mouthed, understanding friend. Perhaps our doctor or psychologist will be the person. It may be one of our own family, but we cannot disclose anything to our wives or our parents which will hurt them and make them unhappy. We have no right to save our own skin at another person’s expense. Such parts of our story we tell to someone who will understand, yet be unaffected. The rule is we must be hard on ourself, but always considerate of others.

We pocket our pride and go to it, illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past.

Most alcoholics owe money. We do not dodge our creditors. Telling them what we are trying to do, we make no bones about our drinking; they usually know it anyway, whether we think so or not. Nor are we afraid of disclosing our alcoholism on the theory it may cause financial harm. Approached in this way, the most ruthless creditor will sometimes surprise us. Arranging the best deal we can we let these people know we are sorry. Our drinking has made us slow to pay. We must lose our fear of creditors no matter how far we have to go, for we are liable to drink if we are afraid to face them.

Perhaps we have committed a criminal offense which might land us in jail if it were known to the authorities. We may be short in our accounts and unable to make good. We have already admitted this in confidence to another person, but we are sure we would be imprisoned or lose our job if it were known. Maybe it’s only a petty offense such as padding the expense account. Most of us have done that sort of thing.

Maybe we are divorced, and have remarried but haven’t kept up the alimony to number one. She is indignant about it, and has a warrant out for our arrest. That’s a common form of trouble too.
Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.

TBC

There you go assuming again. I have studied AA, so don't lecture me on it. You have not one clue as to what sort of councilor I will become , so don't even go there. Your armchair therapy is also completely unfounded. Yes, in your mind my opinions and thoughts on AA are unfounded. Apparently personal experience does not grant me the right to an opinion of my own, I should just share yours.

You base your opinion on what type of councilor I'll be on my dim view of AA and you have the unmitigated gall to criticize anyone! Pot, there's a kettle I'd like you to meet.

I've read the literature, I've studied the programs and my view remains the same. Your condescending attitude certainly won't change that. I've watched you do nothing but insult Barbara and myself for days now. I've watched you make personal insults and attacks. If that's all you can offer, I'm certainly not interested.

colter:

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Quote:
I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.
I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.
I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.
I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that that is the cause of much harm to many.


Some therapist, whose God is intellectualism and the mental science's abhor AA because the very foundation of AA is trusting God. Secular counselors who may grant some flighty worthiness to spirituality as a secondary hobby don't like the idea of people turning their life and will over to a God.



............ but secular therapist don't mind being in the "God position" themselves.

Do you think I'm a therapist? That's amusing.
Are you implying that I'm part of a "secularist conspiracy"?
You [b:09f3d60240]do[/b:09f3d60240] have a vivid imagination. And you are making some [b:09f3d60240]BIG[/b:09f3d60240][/color:09f3d60240] assumptions.

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barabara
colter:

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I feel that the big book is seriously flawed, as were the founders of AA.
I believe that the actual wording of the book permits and encourages some of the abhorrent behavior.
I believe that "letting go and letting God" can be interpreted in ways that can be damaging to oneself and others.
I believe that seeking to do God's will" is all very well and good, but that too many AA members, (and others outside of AA), believe they know what God's will is, and that that is the cause of much harm to many.


Some therapist, whose God is intellectualism and the mental science's abhor AA because the very foundation of AA is trusting God. Secular counselors who may grant some flighty worthiness to spirituality as a secondary hobby don't like the idea of people turning their life and will over to a God.



............ but secular therapist don't mind being in the "God position" themselves.

Do you think I'm a therapist? That's amusing.
Are you implying that I'm part of a "secularist conspiracy"?
You [b:e81b2edde0]do[/b:e81b2edde0] have a vivid imagination. And you are making some [b:e81b2edde0]BIG[/b:e81b2edde0][/color:e81b2edde0] assumptions.

:roll: Well, I don't know, you've made statements as if you routinely encounter people who inquire about help for alcoholism. I may be confusing you with Indanqueen who mentioned a "file for clients" wherein she could recommend alternatives to AA which taught her dad how to do bad things.

Yes, I do have an imagination :?


What is your angle and how have you come to be so interested in AA?

Colter