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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: Colter ()
Date: April 28, 2006 07:16PM

I had a spiritual expieriance April 26th 1985. I mark today the 28th as my official sobriety date.

I'll spare you the story since this forum is designed to trash the good work that AA has done for millions of recovering alcoholics.

[b:e447b60d09]I had no hope and then I had hope.........[/b:e447b60d09]and I still have hope, the light of Gods presense is still alive in me and I share that with the hopeless alcoholics and addicts anytime I can.

I had my awakening before ever officially taking AA's twelve steps.

"When men and women shut off the appeal to the spirit that dwells within them, there is little that can be done to modify their attitude." UB 1955


Colter

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 28, 2006 07:28PM

There are also atheists in AA.

I have known a few, and they say the higher power for them is not defined.

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: Colter ()
Date: April 28, 2006 08:12PM

Quote
rrmoderator
There are also atheists in AA.

I have known a few, and they say the higher power for them is not defined.

Hi RR,

Yes there are and they are welcome, accepted and loved. An Athiest has just as much right to a seat in AA as anyone else.

The principle of AA that I think is critical is that the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Most religious movements require a bare minimum "belief" in some kind of creed. AA allows the individual to define "higher power" in whatever way works for them. In fact no one ever aks anyone to define their God, we just share our experience, strength and hope with each other.

I sponser a Jewish man, he has never asked me what my theological thought life is, he dosn't care. What's important to him is how "he" defines God not me.

Colter

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 28, 2006 08:23PM

Thanks for making that clear.

I have heard this from others that have attended AA.

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: spinnerofthread ()
Date: April 29, 2006 04:33AM

Uh.... moderator. Isn't that nice you let someone who is obviously so entrenched tell you the way it "really is." Perhaps next you will be interested in hearing Tom Cruise explain how Scientology cures dyslexia. After all, he is involved in it and therefore really must be able to see clearly, right? Perhaps you have had friends in Scientology who believe the same-- why it must be true, then.

Colter says that that AA doesn't care WHAT your higher power is.... yet the whole program, the steps, etc. is admitting your powerless and having a higher power 'cure' you. Yet to many that is what atheism is -- a belief in NO higher power (not a doorknob, tree or cup of coffee let alone God).

The courts have declared AA "unequivocally religious" (see Griffin v. Coughlin) and deemed it a violation of the First Amendment to coerce people to attend AA.

For every atheist who has felt welcomed in AA, I can almost bet there are 100 who haven't. For yet another yahoo group on this subject see: AA without religion. See for yourself how welcomed, cherished and loved they have felt.

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: April 29, 2006 04:36AM

My point, which I feel compelled to restate, again, (as it is being continually ignored by my most obvious opponent),
is not that a member is forced to worship any particular [b:4d4004d6c7]God[/b:4d4004d6c7];
Rather,

[b:4d4004d6c7]It is the program itself that must be regarded as "Holy", omniscient, and above question.

Those who do question or criticise the "Big Book", the founders of AA, or the behavior of certain AA members are regarded as heretics by other AA members,[/b:4d4004d6c7] particularly if they do so publicly.

There is organizational pressure to cover up "bad behavior" within AA groups, and prospective members are misled about the nature of meetings and other AA members.

The public has been misinformed.

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: April 29, 2006 07:22AM

[b:aa31235f4c]As for the "Spiritual Experience"[/b:aa31235f4c]:


[b:aa31235f4c]Too bad it's so subjective, and impossible to prove scientifically.[/b:aa31235f4c]

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: bonnie ()
Date: April 29, 2006 08:43AM

[www.positiveatheism.org]

Quote

Alcoholics Anonymous: A Religion In Denial?by Cliff Walker

[b:693690019f]In order to make AA appear more benign to the public, AA members differentiate between the words religious and spiritual[/b:693690019f]. This dance with semantics implies that religion is stuffy, hierarchical, or phony, whereas spirituality is spontaneous, personal, honest, and genuine.

The Webster's Tenth Collegiate Dictionary does not support these shades of meaning. To a nonbeliever, however, religion and spirituality are the same thing; we really don't want any part of it -- if we can help it.

[b:693690019f]Using the ultimate form of coercion, Alcoholics Anonymous says you have two options: religion or death:[/b:693690019f]

"But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics." (page 44)

Note that atheism and agnosticism are forms of dishonesty here -- delusions (we thought we were atheists). AA is not ashamed to paint agnostics (and other nonbelievers) as being dishonest with themselves, implying that they "really do" believe -- deep down inside:

"But [the newcomer's] face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored. We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious." (page 45)

"...as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results..." (page 46)

"Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you..." (page 47)

[b:693690019f]Most of AA's allies will admit that AA does have its "religious trappings"[/b:693690019f] or that some components of the AA program are spiritual in nature; however, [b:693690019f]the Big Book places the religious conversion experience as Priority Number One[/b:693690019f].

But the public at large continues to assume that the best advice is to suggest going to AA.

But the authorities continue to mandate help other than self-recovery to thousands across America. To this day, self-recovery is not an option. This leads me to wonder if the authorities have abstinence as a goal, rather than simply herding them into "the system."

The U.S. Supreme Court may soon end this travesty. Let's hope!

[www.experiencefestival.com]

Quote

Alcoholics Anonymous: Encyclopedia II - Alcoholics Anonymous - A.A. religion and the law

Alcoholics Anonymous - A.A. religion and the law

[b:693690019f]U.S. judges continue to offer defendants the choice of attending A.A., or going to prison[/b:693690019f].

[b:693690019f]A federal appeals court ruled in 1999 that doing so compromises Americans' constitutional right not to have religion dictated to them by government[/b:693690019f] - because A.A. suggests that a belief in a higher power (and making a decision to turn one's will and life over to the care of a God of one's understanding, per the third step) is necessary to achieve recovery.

The United States Supreme Court has let this decision stand.

[b:693690019f]A.A. World Services Inc. [the legal entity of the program as a whole] and A.A.'s General Service Office [the legal entity of A.A. in the U.S. and Canada] do not favor coercion regarding meeting attendance.[/b:693690019f]

I don't know about AA, but NA does seem to be committed to working with the courts to gain recruits:


[www.na.org]
[www.na.org]
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APRIL 2002
APRIL 2002 NA WORLD SERVICES CONFERENCE REPORT

Drug Courts and Narcotics Anonymous

Drug courts represent a relatively new kind of court system, building on the drug diversion programs already in place that court-order addicts to NA meetings. Many national and US state governments view
this model as highly successful, and as a result, these specialized courts have grown rapidly in numbers.

[b:693690019f]Over the past few years, NA has seen an increase in newcomers coming to NA meetings[/b:693690019f], primarily in the US but also in other countries, [b:693690019f]because of referrals from the drug court movement[/b:693690019f].

Also [b:693690019f]fueling this growth[/b:693690019f] in new members is the [b:693690019f]increased awareness and acceptance of Narcotics Anonymous as a preferred program of recovery for drug addicts[/b:693690019f], both among professionals and the [b:693690019f]general public[/b:693690019f].

[b:693690019f]Because of the importance of the drug court movement, we want to continue to build our relationship with these drug court professionals[/b:693690019f].
This past December, we met with representatives of the National Drug
Court Institute (NDCI), the Director of the Department of Justice’s Drug Court Policy Office (DCPO), the PI Coordinator from AA’s GSO, and the current Cooperation with Professionals Coordinator (CPC). Later in the meeting, we were joined by the Executive Director and CEO for the National Association of Drug Court Professionals (NADCP)

[www.na.org].
Quote

NA World Services, Inc.
38
Marketing and Public Relations

Distributing NA literature and other products to as wide a base as possible puts us in a win/win situation. Our primary purpose and public relations efforts are being served when as many addicts and non-addicts as possible see our message, and the funds generated by widely distributing our literature helps us grow and continue to fund our services, reaching out to the addict who still suffers.[b:693690019f]Our Marketing Team has continued its efforts this year to further develop and expand our customer base throughout the treatment and correctional marketplaces.[/b:693690019f]

In 2001-02 we attended and exhibited at the summer American Correctional Association conferences. This year we had a series of meetings and exhibited at major drug-court conferences.

We plan to continue to cultivate new avenues to use in informing the correctional, treatment, and drug-court professionals about our literature and [b:693690019f]products[/b:693690019f]. We continue considering various packaging formats that will benefit the treatment and correctional professional. We have developed two distinctly different product update mailers for both of these [b:693690019f]markets[/b:693690019f].

Over the past year [b:693690019f]our correctional sales of literature have continued to increase[/b:693690019f]. We have also seen some upward movement in our [b:693690019f]sales to substance abuse treatment providers[/b:693690019f], and we anticipate that this field will continue to grow on a steep curve.

We now believe that we can probably look forward to [b:693690019f]increased sales[/b:693690019f] to the corrections, treatment, and drug-court sectors each year for the foreseeable future.

We believe that [b:693690019f]the market share being generated in the drug-court sector is growing.[/b:693690019f]

We have learned that once the treatment, correctional, and drug-court professionals become aware that they can [b:693690019f]buy Narcotics Anonymous literature straight from the WSO[/b:693690019f], they do so.

Of course, the value of these relationships to NA World Services is two-fold. [b:693690019f]Certainly we want to market and sell our literature. This is the way that we fund our services[/b:693690019f].

However, of equal importance is the fact that, as a result of selling this literature to these agencies that have huge numbers of suffering addicts as clientele, it is an incredibly efficient way to get the word of NA recovery to the still-suffering addict.

We have increased the total of our treatment and corrections database again in this [b:693690019f]fiscal year[/b:693690019f] for this reason.

Our increased presence in these markets has also helped us identify [b:693690019f]trends in the market[/b:693690019f], such as the [b:693690019f]continuing growth in the drug-court movement[/b:693690019f].

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: spinnerofthread ()
Date: April 29, 2006 11:17AM

Hey bonnie, I find this as frustrating as you. I just want you too know that you are so not alone in this opinion... by the amount of research you have done I know you probably have gathered this, but it still deserves saying.
There are a growing number that see AA for what it is-- an ineffective tratment at best (I am sure you have seen the studies that say this) and a destructive cult at its worse. Here's to the internet as a vehicle for education-- don't give up!

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Alcholics Anonymous should be regarded as a cult.
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 29, 2006 06:34PM

Bonnie:

As I have stated repeatedly, AA and NA are not "cults" and don't generate complaints to me, through email, phone calls etc. from former members or concerned families.

I have received complaints about substance abuse and recovery programs such as Synanon-linked programs, Teen Challenge, Narconon, Victory Outreach and others, but not AA or NA.

AA and NA don't have the bad press that desctructive groups often generate, regarding "brainwashing" allegations or harm done.

If there was a story to report regarding profts from AA or NA making someone rich, gross abuses with a growing number of hurt people, "brainwahsing" and destroyed families, there would be press articles and other media investigative reports.

There would also be personal injury lawsuits to cite with awards, as there have been against Scientology, the Unification Church, Teen Boot Camps etc. etc.

I have met many AA members and some NA members over the years and they don't fit the pattern of either destructive group participants or cult members.

This thread seems to have become a kind of ongoing rant and many of the posts here appear to be more like flames than comments.

Calling AA or NA a "cult" over and over again doesn't make it so.

And compiling negative comments here doesn't change the fact that i have not received complaints, which would typically come in, if these groups were in fact as destructive as you claim they are.

I began my work in 1982 and this is my professional experience.

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