1) Pequa Girl is not a troll. I hate people. But this person could not know the congruent details that I also know about their life and be a troll. They are just someone with enough information to be confused, and seem more than they are. Sometimes parents share too much about nothing. And we are all paranoid...
2) Wow is all I can say to the new posts. Is it amazing that we have almost no response about incest? Are we all beyond feeling? To be abused/molested by someone you know is awful and disgusting... but to be abused/molested by your family... it's an entirely different ball of wax. I find I don't have words to express my emotions about it. Nothing could be said enough. Understating or overstating would only add to already raw wounds. Did this group think this would have happened anyway? I can't be so sure. I think these experiences were heightened by this group. Abusers attract abusers? Perhaps. Abuse enables abuse... I feel that would be a more apt descriptor.

Do you ever wonder who you would have been had it not been for Jack Hickman? I do. I wonder if I would have been better. Not happier. But better? Some a-hole once said to me: well it doesn't matter if you're happy... what matters is if you do what is right. Of course I'm using strong language because I didn't agree with their measure of right. But they might have been onto something in this case.

Considering my life... would I have been better without Jack?

I have no idea. I never had a life without Jack being involved. Without a Jack... my parents would not have even been married. "I" would not exist. There would be a completely different me, in a different set of circumstances, a separate life. Sometimes, feeling existential, I wonder what that person would have been like.

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disillusioned1
1) Pequa Girl is not a troll. I hate people. But this person could not know the congruent details that I also know about their life and be a troll. They are just someone with enough information to be confused, and seem more than they are. Sometimes parents share too much about nothing. And we are all paranoid...
2) Wow is all I can say to the new posts. Is it amazing that we have almost no response about incest? Are we all beyond feeling? To be abused/molested by someone you know is awful and disgusting... but to be abused/molested by your family... it's an entirely different ball of wax. I find I don't have words to express my emotions about it. Nothing could be said enough. Understating or overstating would only add to already raw wounds. Did this group think this would have happened anyway? I can't be so sure. I think these experiences were heightened by this group. Abusers attract abusers? Perhaps. Abuse enables abuse... I feel that would be a more apt descriptor.

Do you ever wonder who you would have been had it not been for Jack Hickman? I do. I wonder if I would have been better. Not happier. But better? Some a-hole once said to me: well it doesn't matter if you're happy... what matters is if you do what is right. Of course I'm using strong language because I didn't agree with their measure of right. But they might have been onto something in this case.

Considering my life... would I have been better without Jack?

I have no idea. I never had a life without Jack being involved. Without a Jack... my parents would not have even been married. "I" would not exist. There would be a completely different me, in a different set of circumstances, a separate life. Sometimes, feeling existential, I wonder what that person would have been like.

disillusioned -

"Pequa Girl is not a troll - thank you... why would some one say that anyway?

"Is it amazing that we have almost no response about incest?" - i wanted to comment, and yet... what could i say... sorry? , that doesn't seem enough.

"Considering my life... would I have been better without Jack?" - i've 'gone down that road', and my feeling, belief, whatever, is - i am what i am, i am happy, i am grateful for so much. ie: my beautiful children; everything in my life, has led me to this point... so, i wouldn't change a thing.

but hey, that's just me.

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exfollower

"Considering my life... would I have been better without Jack?" - i've 'gone down that road', and my feeling, belief, whatever, is - i am what i am, i am happy, i am grateful for so much. ie: my beautiful children; everything in my life, has led me to this point... so, i wouldn't change a thing.

but hey, that's just me.

reading this again... i hope i didn't offend anyone...it's just that, in the 10yrs i was in the cult, i was lucky that it didn't 'scar' me for life, the way it has others. leaving it, certainly shook my life up and made me challenge EVERYTHING i ever believed in. (but, i believe that is a good thing) i also married and had my first child in those 10 yrs... so i'm saying i wouldn't 'trade that for anything'.

and, i realize it is SO different for you '2nd & 3rd generation'. - for us it was a choice to 'join'... and then a choice to leave. i admire the guts it takes for someone 'born' into it to leave.

I sometimes am puzzled by posts which I read that don't add up. I don't go into emotional tizzies.

There is a SEARCH button at the top of this screen. Rather than allowing single posts to ''push my buttons'' ... I click onto the SEARCH button and type in the name of a poster/author.
Then I try to piece together what I'm reading. Again this can be puzzling at times but not emotionally upsetting.

I can't imagine how the elders in this cult which was originated by Jack Hickman and which is now led by Gary Coons, are feeling. They read these posts. They have emotions. Do they get frustrated? Angry? They must have reactions.
Would those feeling drive them to action?
I wonder.
Jack can't do anything. Jack is dead. But what about the elders who are alive? Do they get angry? Do they want people to stop ''attacking'' them?? Do they want people to stop ''exposing'' their tactics?
I wonder.

For me, I feel driven to provide links and resource information.

I hope and pray that people who have been stifled by this group can reach out to ''outsiders'' in the therapeutic community or even law enforcement.


Being a victim of sexual abuse and not being believed is very harmful. Being a ''helper'' and not being believed is expected. Anyone reaching out to victims of sexual exploitation would expect a level of mistrust. This mistrust is not harmful. Not to someone who genuinely wants to help.

btw ''witnessing or being aware of '' abuse and being forced to accept it is also a type of exloitaition and abuse.

I pray with all of my heart that people believe
and TRUST THE TRUTH
TRUST FACTS
TRUST YOUR INSTICTS
TRUST YOUR RIGHT TO SAY ''hmmmm.....I don't think so''?????
TRUST the FACT that you can be wrong about someone WITHOUT HURTING THEM.


It DOES NOT HARM a ''helper'' if you doubt them. It is not hurtful.

Victims ARE harmed if they are mistrusted.
Helpers are NOT HARMED if they are mistrusted.
Salesmen ARE also harmed if they are mistrusted.

When does a 50 plus year old ''friend/helper/healer'' get WOUNDED when you don't trust them? And so much so that several other ''helpers'' immediately jump to their defense? Think about it.

Doubt me. Doubt my posts. Doubt my facts. I don't care. I'll just go make lunch and take the kids to the mall and...while I'm there I may try to figure out a better way to get my point across.

But...I'm not going to be wounded because someone questions me.

Cult leaders. Cult leaders are a different story.
They don't want to be doubted.
They don't want to be questioned.

I don't know who I would be without Jack Hickman in my life. Hell, I didn't know who I was with him there.

I do think abuse enables abuse. I can remember someone convincing me to talk to Jack and Gary about the abuse from my parents.....before I could say anything, Jack said "we don't have time to talk about all that is there" or something like that. So I started to think maybe I was crazy. he controlled with power, some of the most unstable people I know had (or have) authority positions in the "family" Ugh I can remember my father going on and on....."I don't know what's so special about me, but if Jack can see it then there must be something"

I was struggling for awhile, because after the big "reunion" in 96 or whenever it was. I tried so hard to be a part of things, because I thought it would give me a sense of .....I don't know, purpose, understanding.....something. But I was 16 or 17 and I was looking for that anyway. But I remember, when there was a call for us to stand up I felt conflicted. I stood up, mostly because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't.

My struggle is..........I would go and reach out to people that had "left" to convince them to come back. And I did. Now part of me wants to contact them and tell them to stay far far away. But the damage is done and I don't want to get near any of it. In addition to the fact that I haven't been active in about 10 years. I tried once or twice to go back. Mostly because I had very close friends within the 'family' and my sister was much more involved. Now, about half of those friends are no longer involved and neither is my sister.

I was also thinking about the incest/abuse that happened. And it happened far too often (duh). But I mean, it is hard to digest that in a group that size, no one thought to intercede. But from personal experience.........no one ever wanted to get involved, it was not their responsibility. And today, in hind sight......I'd like to kick a bunch of people in the junk for not interceding. They never interceded for my sister,me or close friends we had growing up that were victims of incest and abuse. They turned a blind eye, as if we didn't matter. People that are "professionals" or teachers ...... that have higher educations and would be fired in the real world for not reporting suspicions of abuse of any kind. The saddest part......most of those people were damned near raised by Jack Hickman. So is it a matter of ........if your born brain washed, you stay that way? I don't believe so. I was born into this 'thing' and I had sense enough to question it.......so why do so many just go along with it??

I've had little problem saying who I am and why I'm on here. This is because they can't do anything to me. I was rape. I was beaten. It was made to feel that I was worth nothing inside the "Family" and the outsiders were beneath me. What more are they going to do? Why is everyone scared? Really I want an answer. Is there something I'm missing? Hate to be a geek. Quoting Dune here. "Fear is the mind killer". You can't hide from a bully. And if anyone has the taped teachings they need to be posting them to YouTube! I say lets expose them! I hate this group. I hate have to explain to my kid why she doesn't get to meet her grandparents. I hate that my parent loved this group and themselves more them my brothers, sister, and me. They sacrificed all of us to their fake god. So I ask again, WHY ARE YOU ALL SO DAMN SCARED?? Please someone publish the writings! Someone post the videos!

PARANOIA

How Paranoia was taught in psychology 101
Very funny actually.

My teacher ( a gazillion years ago) introduced the subject this way. He asked what we students would do if we were counsillors and a man came into our office for the first time and said ''shut the windows...quick...they followed me...they're watching''.
He waited for all of us to give some psycho babble type answer. Then he said ''you're all wrong''. He said ''you should have checked the window. What if he really was followed?''

Well we all laughed. It's true. People get stalked. They get deceived. They get tricked and hounded and brainwashed.
Being ''on guard'' or ''vigilent'' is NOT the definition of paranoia. Paranoia occurs when trustworthy people cannot make their case because the victim doesn't trust them.
Does that make sense?
In other words if authority figures prove so untrustworthy for so long a victim may come to doubt EVERYONE in a way that eventually becomes unreasonable.
Victims avoid police. Victims avoid lawyers. Victims avoid counsillors. Victims believe in some world wide conspiracy in which they alone are the target. This is unreasonable.

Cult leaders telling people ''phones are bugged'' or ''watchers are everywhere'' creates an unreasonable fear. They will go so far as to ''role play''. They'll say things like ''I'm scared''...''what if etc. etc.'' It's intended to create an UNREASONABLE environment of fear because now...we can ''trust no one''.
Fear is directed at EVERYONE. They retain their control in this way.
But suspicion SHOULD BE directed at people born prior to 1960....who stayed loyal to Jack Hickman. That's not paranoia. That's reasonable.


Someone thought to do a timeline way back.

I thought that was very helpful. History sometimes repeats itself if it isn't properly understood. Here's what I know of the timeline.

1) Prior to 1970 Jack develops a close friendship with Pastor Don Smestead and Pastor John Hove. They were friends. He didn't brain wash them. All THREE were in the BUSINESS of selling ''spiritual food''. As the group develops and preaches Judaism ALL THREE men taught....but didn not actually practice Judaism(unless they had guests)

2) 1970s Jack is a leader in a Lutheran Church. Jack begins introducing Judaism, Jack develops close ties with certain Dix Hills families. He is especially attracted to Joan Uttin and Jane Hicks. These women were NOT brainwashed by Jack. They were his peers. They liked Jack. They liked being close to a leader. They liked power. Their husbands were not victims of Jack's. They were men who had some interest in money, perhaps power. They never even pretended to have an interest in spiritual matters.
These men were NOT Jack's victims. Some of their children may have become victims.

3)1970s a young homosexual arrives at Jack's church. I believe he already knew that this wealthy charismatic leader was a homosexual and his name was Gary. Gary liked Jack. Jack had money, power.
Gary never even pretended to be interested in spiritual matters.

Sexual abusive of children was being reported in these homes (I don't know about Hove), and others even BEFORE the 1982 article.
The 1000 members of Jack's church didn't know about it. But Jack knew. That is THE ONLY REASON that Jack... A PEDOPHILE....liked these people.
He was attracted to these women who had no sexual boundaries and no desire/ability to protect their children.
He was attracted to these men who ... in my opinion.... are questionable.

Others popped up.,
OUt of 1000 people it is likely that an insightful pedophile can determine who else among the group is predatory.
He can determine which women had no boundaries and/or ability to protect their children.
That is exactly waht Jack did.

Since I first posted in 2007 I have been saying that Jack Hickman DID NOT operate alone. I won't let go of that (though I've been told to).

4) 1982 -1984 Genuine people who were really looking for God and who had no familial ties leave.


5)1982- 1990 A very few confused and dissilussioned people with involved family struggle to leave the group. They/we still have a strong understanding, clear, not confusing, undenaiable. A STRONG CONVINCTION. We are convinced that those who stayed are NOT TO BE TRUSTED. Whether they are our family members or strangers we are suspicious of what they may be up to. Not paranoid. Suspicious.
There is no confusion about this. We may have experienced confusion about religious matters but we are clear about our distrust for those who remained in this group. None of us wonder ''gosh...might Gary be nice?''. None of us.

I would love to see a civil suit brought against all persons who were over the age of 18 (born 1962 or prior) and who stayed in this group.
I believe it is very possible to do this.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2011 01:08AM by Sallie.

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Pninaruth
I've had little problem saying who I am and why I'm on here. This is because they can't do anything to me. I was rape. I was beaten. It was made to feel that I was worth nothing inside the "Family" and the outsiders were beneath me. What more are they going to do? Why is everyone scared? Really I want an answer. Is there something I'm missing? Hate to be a geek. Quoting Dune here. "Fear is the mind killer". You can't hide from a bully. And if anyone has the taped teachings they need to be posting them to YouTube! I say lets expose them! I hate this group. I hate have to explain to my kid why she doesn't get to meet her grandparents. I hate that my parent loved this group and themselves more them my brothers, sister, and me. They sacrificed all of us to their fake god. So I ask again, WHY ARE YOU ALL SO DAMN SCARED?? Please someone publish the writings! Someone post the videos!

I think that posting some of the teachings and videos on Youtube or another medium would be EXCELLENT ....an excellent way to expose what this group has been in the last 30 years. Yes many of us "old timers (<50-55) were attracted to the thought of finding purpose, finding a relationship to the Holy and really thought this was the venue to do so. As the teachings got more strict and beatings and odd things began to happen, we started questioning. After SBS there was a great exodus but sadly, not enough left. It makes me wonder how deluded those that stayed were/are. I mean I left and have carried, like exfollower, the scars emotionally of questioning everything, not believing in much of anything and wondering how I was so deluded...AND THE EVIL OF THIS GROUP HADN'T EVEN COME TO FULLNESS YET!! I read of these 2nd and 3rd generation and what y'all went through and I am sick...just sick.

How I wish in hindsight we had not been so gullible, but I think that every person has within the yearning to connect with something "holy", something greater than themselves and this sick bastard Jack was intelligent enough to know that and he played on it. The parents that sacrifice their own children are beyond evil. I know without a doubt I would have killed anyone who had touched my children when they were small ones..and yet an entire generation of parents seem to willingly give over their children...sick sick sick. There is not much else to say. My hatred and anger for Jack and others (like John Hove, Don Smeasted, Richie Walsh and Phil Ramu) continues to grow. It is too bad that someone didn't take them all out when this all started. Incarnate evil...that is what Jack Hickman was!

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Pninaruth
I've had little problem saying who I am and why I'm on here. This is because they can't do anything to me. I was rape. I was beaten. It was made to feel that I was worth nothing inside the "Family" and the outsiders were beneath me. What more are they going to do? Why is everyone scared? Really I want an answer. Is there something I'm missing? Hate to be a geek. Quoting Dune here. "Fear is the mind killer". You can't hide from a bully. And if anyone has the taped teachings they need to be posting them to YouTube! I say lets expose them! I hate this group. I hate have to explain to my kid why she doesn't get to meet her grandparents. I hate that my parent loved this group and themselves more them my brothers, sister, and me. They sacrificed all of us to their fake god. So I ask again, WHY ARE YOU ALL SO DAMN SCARED?? Please someone publish the writings! Someone post the videos!

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Ditto
Ditto
Ditto

Everytime one of my children does something I want to call my mom. Imagine? Then I remember...I don't have a mom. Worse is that this women parades arround PRETENDING she's my mom.
These losers can do NOTHING. What can they do? Nothing. Nothing at all. It's already been done. The only thing they can do is continue to lie and decieve and you're right. We just have to rip off their masks.

Once more.

1)A victim who is trying to report or tell a story of abuse CAN BE HARMED if they are doubted. In order to get the practical help which they need it is imperitive that their story is believed.


2)A person who is attempting to help a victim of abuse WILL NOT BE HARMED emotionally if they are mistrusted. Those who help abuse victims FULLY EXPECT A CERTAIN LEVEL OF MISTRUST TO BE DIRECTED THEIR WAY.


3)Cult leaders CAN BE HARMED if they are doubted or mistrusted. Cult leaders are selling a story. No salesman can sell a story if someone doubts them.
Cult leaders/abusers pretend they are hurt when in actuality, they are angry. This is common. It happens all the time.