like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 12, 2007 12:11PM
Quote
It doesn't make up for my family talking about my cult involvement behind my back (which I found out later)
LEC_escapee,
Would you have listened to them if they told you to right up front that you were involved in a cult? Did they ever have a chance to speak to you face to face about it?
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Europe-girl
()
Date: January 12, 2007 02:12PM
Quote
Jack Oskar Larm
I am not assessing whether Landmark is a LGAT or not. If it walks on four legs like a dog, barks like a dog and drools at dinner time like a dog ... well, it must be a dog. Note: I mean no offence to dogs. Simply, Landmark is a LGAT. I have no confusion about that.
[i:e4b14260a0]I didn't mean "assessing" as though you hadn't made up your mind yet. I'm clear you're beyond the assessing part. [/i:e4b14260a0] :wink:
I think Landmark is much like an abusive partner. And in this case, just walk away. Yes, it might be beneficial to consider what you've gained from Landmark,
[i:e4b14260a0]
Yep, I've told you that for now that seems to be a healthy thing for me, in order to recover. I think when someone recognises he/she has been in a abusive relationship and has come to terms with it fully, he or she also sees the partner for what he or she is: poiseness to be with, but "he had this funny side".[/i:e4b14260a0]
As you've stated earlier, you want to discuss what is positive about Landmark.
[i:e4b14260a0]Maybe I have not been clear in my choise of words, but I don't recall having said I would like to discuss what's positive about Landmark. I think I only said I have to see for myself and come to terms with all of it.[/i:e4b14260a0]
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
LEC_escapee
()
Date: January 13, 2007 05:15AM
Quote
ON2 LF
LEC_escapee,
Would you have listened to them if they told you to right up front that you were involved in a cult? Did they ever have a chance to speak to you face to face about it?
Oh, I'm not saying they should have tried. I know why they didn't. However, if they had I probably would have listened, especially from my aunt who is a psychologist if she has shown me credible academic information. I was still involved when I came across the information on Rick Ross and it was that which had me quit.
I didn't do LF because I thought it was a cult, or because I was even unhappy, I had no clue LGATs and such things existed. I certainly had no clue the mind was so easily manipulated (especially mine - I am extremely analytical and stubborn, which is probably why it was simple enough for me to leave once I learned what I did). I did LF because coworkers and friends I trusted were doing it - people were just as anti-touchy-feely-personal-development-crap (as I always put it).
We spoke about it just recently, which is how I found out they were all talking about it behind my back. Now, we have a cousin who's been sucked in by the Kabbalah cult so I'm hardly a topic of conversation anymore.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 13, 2007 09:15AM
Quote
I was still involved when I came across the information on Rick Ross and it was that which had me quit.
LEC_escapee,
Thanks for your reply to my question.
I ask because my attempts in trying to reason with a landmarkian friend have been as fruitful as trying to bail out the ocean with a teaspoon. NOTHING sane and logical gets through. In fact she was getting coaching from other landmarkians on how to deal with me and how to deflect information like that found on a site like this one. I mean, she listens to [b:999af9f217]nothing[/b:999af9f217] that wasn't written or uttered by landmark drones!! Every landmark defense conconcted, about why it is [i:999af9f217]not[/i:999af9f217] a cult, seems to just echo continuously in her mind; its like she has told herself no matter what, who, where, or when...never listen to anything critical of LE! They've got control of her like NO ONE I've seen or heard of that had once been, or still is involved in LE. I keep hoping to hear from an ex-landmark follower how I could snap her out of her trance. I've sent her information, weblinks, Journal articles, etc...nothing sinks in, nothing causes her to think! This is the most hopeless endeavor I have ever attempted in my life and by far, the most maddening! I just cannot believe I am witnessing the magnitude of the stupor, this psycho cult has her in. I wish she would read some of the testimonies of ex-landmarkers here and start thinking about what is really going on in her mind and life.
Anyway, I am about to throw in the towel on my efforts and hopes of getting her to see the light, it has been a year of NO progress made. It is too frustrating and heartbreaking to watch this unfold in her life. And the loss of her friendship, has in some ways, been like a loss in death.
It is the saddest waste of an amazing mind I have ever witnessed and I have no idea how to just accept it. But, I will have to.
I have spent so much time and energy trying to find a way to expose LE to her and to the world that I have lost alot of ground in my own personal goals and progress. LE has damaged and darkened my life without my ever having wasted a second or a dime on a forum! That is what you call TOXIC! I've sacrificed alot in spending time and energy trying to save a friend who, in truth, is no longer a friend to me, but someone I feel I should remain a friend to so that when the dawn of reality strikes, she won't be alone. She feels more contempt for me than most of my enemies do, so really, its a one-way effort and I have to end it somewhere. I only get a semi-positive response from her when she needs help with something. I'm the pawn to her that she is to landmark. Sick! Only, I see that I'm being used, she's as clueless as can be. Sorry to unload this babble onto you, I just wanted to make clear why I asked about your situation and to express that I see I've taken on a losing battle. You saw the light when you found this site, my friend could find 10 sites like this one and it still wouldn't sink in...I give up. Only God can change her heart and mind.
I sincerely hope that your family finds a way to get your cousin out ASAP!Quote
Now, we have a cousin who's been sucked in by the Kabbalah cult so I'm hardly a topic of conversation anymore.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
LEC_escapee
()
Date: January 13, 2007 10:07AM
Quote
ON2 LF
[
Anyway, I am about to throw in the towel on my efforts and hopes of getting her to see the light, it has been a year of NO progress made. It is too frustrating and heartbreaking to watch this unfold in her life. And the loss of her friendship, has in some ways, been like a loss in death.
It is the saddest waste of an amazing mind I have ever witnessed and I have no idea how to just accept it. But, I will have to.
Sadly, I think that there is probably nothing else you can do, you've stuck it out a long time. You may not have to leave completely, but you may need to step back until she finds her own way out. You are completely right when you talk about the fact that other cultists are coaching her on how to talk to you. All they care about is keeping her in and getting you in. You are the enemy, you don't want a happy and fulfilled and powerful life if you don't give in and do Landmark. In fact, you probably don't really care about her - I mean from their perspective. It's a rare Landmarkian who respects over people's choices.
I think I'm different than most Landmarkian's because (a) I had a very dysfunctional relationship inside Landmark and it made me question a lot of the Landmark stuff along the way, (b) I was part of the leadership bodies and saw a lot of stuff that just didn't jibe, and (c) their policies and procedures and agreements offended me personally and professionally and I asked a lot of questions all along the way and was not happy with the results. I could never reconcile what they said and how they acted. I used to get yelled at because of my doubts and questions. Finally, I had just had enough and quit the leadership stuff and diddled around in an advanced course for a while (mainly for the social stuff) and then finally quit full stop, but that process itself took a year.
Whether you throw in the towel with your friend or not, it is a loss and you need to grieve it that way and give yourself time. I just don't think there's any logical way to get through to people whose minds are addled by this circular thinking. Most of the people I knew at Landmark are no longer involved, but it took a few years for that to happen. Eventually, she will probably burn out if she's not already on a leadership track and her cognitive reasoning will get heard.
If you want to make a last ditch effort, give her the materials from rick ross, the most persuasive to me when I was still brainwashed was the academic paper on the other LGAT talking about everything from chair arrangement and how the leader draws you in. Also, reading "The Psychology of Influence" was very enlightening. Landmark operates very much from that sales technique book.
Good luck!
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 13, 2007 01:08PM
Quote
Sadly, I think that there is probably nothing else you can do, you've stuck it out a long time. You may not have to leave completely, but you may need to step back until she finds her own way out.
I've been in denial of this fact for a few months now, but no more.
The loss is something that I will always hold Landmark Education accountable for. The betrayal and the sell out, I have to hold my friend accountable for. Either way, it adds up to grief.Quote
Whether you throw in the towel with your friend or not, it is a loss and you need to grieve it that way and give yourself time.
She is on the leadership track. I will guess that the burn out can't be too far off. The schedule she keeps is much like the one sonnie_dee was describing, only she has given up [b:8087ea775b]everything[/b:8087ea775b] and I mean everything to become a leader. I don't know if she has what it takes to face the betrayal that is bound to be revealed to her.Quote
Eventually, she will probably burn out if she's not already on a leadership track and her cognitive reasoning will get heard.
If she were to read something like The Psychology of Influence, she would think it was about all the liars and misinformed people that Landmark has been warning her about...I'm telling ya, she is desperately hooked.Quote
Also, reading "The Psychology of Influence" was very enlightening. Landmark operates very much from that sales technique book.
I hope and pray for this miracle to happen in her life too.Quote
Most of the people I knew at Landmark are no longer involved, but it took a few years for that to happen.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Europe-girl
()
Date: January 13, 2007 02:54PM
ON2 LF, I feel for you, it's really sad...
I was hooked like your friend is now, deeply. I wouldn't have listened to anything. The thing with all the information/theory from internet is, that it falls straight into the way of thinking she has developed in Landmark. She will probably think you have an "already always listening for Landmark" which holds you back from seeing how good it all is. That is also the coaching she is receiving 'cos all the people around her think the same way. I know I would not have been able to hear your words for what they are...
I wrote earlier on another thread. The only thing that might have worked for me, was if people would have started from where I was standing. I'll explain. I was deeply involved, but the thing that was nagging in the back of my mind was the enrollment part. Landmark would say you would only get the full benefits if you shared your miracle (...). That didn't swallow. I felt alienated from others if I had to try to enroll them. It was very unsettling and discomforting. I couldn't grasp the concept of getting more value through bringing other people on.
If someone back then, would have sat down with me and started talking to me about that, there might have been an entrance. Because it was something Landmark could NOT explain to me.
Maybe you can see it this way: all these LGAT's have high promises and they lure you with big lies. There are experts in seduction. But... since "there's something off" there ARE flaws. Every participant feels the flaws deep down. But they either are not aware, or they dismiss them convincing themselves with the Landmark languaging/teachings. I believe everyone though senses the flaws on one level or the other.
The enrollment part for instance; I surely wasn't the only one that felt uncomfortable with it.
If you would like to make another attempt: LISTEN to her. Listen to where she's at. Ask open questions and listen keenly (which is by the way also used in Landmark...). You can always tell when you strike a chore. Once you hit that chore, slowly but gently investigate this with her. This will take more than one conversation and a long period of time.
If for instance it is her stress about enrolling others, ask her how she feels about it. Why she tries to do it. If she can explain to you why Landmark wants her to do that. How it makes her feel picking up the phone and calling a friend/collegue/family member. Encourage her to simply ask Landmark why it's such a good thing. Show interest the next time you talk to her.
If Landmark isn't there to listen to her inner thoughts and feelings, you are... that will create a gab.
Once you know where things don't really settle for her regarding Landmark, you know where you can focuse on. Then take a step back, so you won't get exhausted (as you are already now :cry: ). WHEN you talk to her, focus on this subject (but not only on this, otherwise it gets obvious). Briefly point out to her again all the material you already gave her and leave it at that. Time WILL have to do the rest.
Once you're in a debate with a brainwashed person, they slide into the reasoning part. All of Landmark's teachings will come up strongly and they can talk you and themselves out of anything. Don't debate. Stay with the feelings, where it is real. You might ask her to explain the Landmark teachings so it's of her chest and then move the discussion back to HER, how she is feeling. Once she's "in her head" she won't be able to hear what you are saying. But her heart IS.
Maybe you'll try this approach, maybe you don't have the energy anymore. I do believe that in the end everyone is responsible for his or hers own choices in life. Maybe that's Landmark bullsh*t, I guess it's main stream too. :wink: Don't feel guilty if you stop trying. You're human and you can only do so much...
If you do however, and you find an entrance, I would love to hear it. Maybe I can help you along, since I know what "the other side" will do in terms of "coaching".
Best of luck!
I was hooked like your friend is now, deeply. I wouldn't have listened to anything. The thing with all the information/theory from internet is, that it falls straight into the way of thinking she has developed in Landmark. She will probably think you have an "already always listening for Landmark" which holds you back from seeing how good it all is. That is also the coaching she is receiving 'cos all the people around her think the same way. I know I would not have been able to hear your words for what they are...
I wrote earlier on another thread. The only thing that might have worked for me, was if people would have started from where I was standing. I'll explain. I was deeply involved, but the thing that was nagging in the back of my mind was the enrollment part. Landmark would say you would only get the full benefits if you shared your miracle (...). That didn't swallow. I felt alienated from others if I had to try to enroll them. It was very unsettling and discomforting. I couldn't grasp the concept of getting more value through bringing other people on.
If someone back then, would have sat down with me and started talking to me about that, there might have been an entrance. Because it was something Landmark could NOT explain to me.
Maybe you can see it this way: all these LGAT's have high promises and they lure you with big lies. There are experts in seduction. But... since "there's something off" there ARE flaws. Every participant feels the flaws deep down. But they either are not aware, or they dismiss them convincing themselves with the Landmark languaging/teachings. I believe everyone though senses the flaws on one level or the other.
The enrollment part for instance; I surely wasn't the only one that felt uncomfortable with it.
If you would like to make another attempt: LISTEN to her. Listen to where she's at. Ask open questions and listen keenly (which is by the way also used in Landmark...). You can always tell when you strike a chore. Once you hit that chore, slowly but gently investigate this with her. This will take more than one conversation and a long period of time.
If for instance it is her stress about enrolling others, ask her how she feels about it. Why she tries to do it. If she can explain to you why Landmark wants her to do that. How it makes her feel picking up the phone and calling a friend/collegue/family member. Encourage her to simply ask Landmark why it's such a good thing. Show interest the next time you talk to her.
If Landmark isn't there to listen to her inner thoughts and feelings, you are... that will create a gab.
Once you know where things don't really settle for her regarding Landmark, you know where you can focuse on. Then take a step back, so you won't get exhausted (as you are already now :cry: ). WHEN you talk to her, focus on this subject (but not only on this, otherwise it gets obvious). Briefly point out to her again all the material you already gave her and leave it at that. Time WILL have to do the rest.
Once you're in a debate with a brainwashed person, they slide into the reasoning part. All of Landmark's teachings will come up strongly and they can talk you and themselves out of anything. Don't debate. Stay with the feelings, where it is real. You might ask her to explain the Landmark teachings so it's of her chest and then move the discussion back to HER, how she is feeling. Once she's "in her head" she won't be able to hear what you are saying. But her heart IS.
Maybe you'll try this approach, maybe you don't have the energy anymore. I do believe that in the end everyone is responsible for his or hers own choices in life. Maybe that's Landmark bullsh*t, I guess it's main stream too. :wink: Don't feel guilty if you stop trying. You're human and you can only do so much...
If you do however, and you find an entrance, I would love to hear it. Maybe I can help you along, since I know what "the other side" will do in terms of "coaching".
Best of luck!
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Europe-girl
()
Date: January 13, 2007 02:55PM
@Jack, I'd like to remain anonymous, so I'll keep it at "Europe". :wink:
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 13, 2007 10:32PM
Quote
I was deeply involved, but the thing that was nagging in the back of my mind was the enrollment part. Landmark would say you would only get the full benefits if you shared your miracle (...). That didn't swallow. I felt alienated from others if I had to try to enroll them. It was very unsettling and discomforting. I couldn't grasp the concept of getting more value through bringing other people on.
If someone back then, would have sat down with me and started talking to me about that, there might have been an entrance. Because it was something Landmark could NOT explain to me.
Maybe you can see it this way: all these LGAT's have high promises and they lure you with big lies. There are experts in seduction. But... since "there's something off" there ARE flaws. Every participant feels the flaws deep down. But they either are not aware, or they dismiss them convincing themselves with the Landmark languaging/teachings. I believe everyone though senses the flaws on one level or the other.
The enrollment part for instance; I surely wasn't the only one that felt uncomfortable with it.
I'm not entirely certain that the enrollment part bothers my friend that much. She does some fairly drastic things, like finding some charity org. to volunteer at for a few hours just to meet new people to have enrollment conversations with. She denies adamantly to me that there is extreme pressure on her to enroll people. Everything I know about how involved she is, I know because I have observed and read between the lines, not because she tells me. I think she realizes that LE is not on the level about alot of things but she needs to make sure I don't realize it. She doesn't stop to think that I am more aware of how crooked and deceitful LE is than she is. She is in total denial about the recruitment pressures, and even before she became so mesmerized about LE, she did not talk about anything deeper than the weather or generalized opinions about life. I can't see her swallowing the insurmountable arrogance in her attitude toward me because I don't buy into the LE bullshit. She is too proud to ever admit she was wrong. In fact, I've never heard her admit to being wrong about anything ever in her life. I think pride and denial may keep her pinned down longer than most.
She's right if she thinks I'm always guarded and ready to deflect and trash anything pertaining to LE. I used to try to be polite about my attitude but it only served to encourage attempts to recruit me, so, I don't leave that door open anymore. She too is a coach now and sometimes she mistakes me for the people she is coaching, a mistake I do not hestitate to point out. I think the only good thing I can do from here on is to step back and let the chips fall where they may. I will leave the door open for when she is no longer involved with LE. If she needs or wants a friend then, I will be there.Quote
The thing with all the information/theory from internet is, that it falls straight into the way of thinking she has developed in Landmark. She will probably think you have an "already always listening for Landmark" which holds you back from seeing how good it all is. That is also the coaching she is receiving 'cos all the people around her think the same way.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Jack Oskar Larm
()
Date: January 14, 2007 03:58AM
LEC_escapee wrote:
This is probably the best advice. She's lost it for awhile, like lost on a altering drug. You have to accept that for all your guidance she'll have to make it out by herself. Obviously an experience like this could 'taint' any future relationship with this person. But if you step back and be available (if that's possible now), then I'm sure a time will come when she'll need your support. After surviving Landmark, she may need plenty of support and understanding.
Quote
Sadly, I think that there is probably nothing else you can do, you've stuck it out a long time. You may not have to leave completely, but you may need to step back until she finds her own way out.
This is probably the best advice. She's lost it for awhile, like lost on a altering drug. You have to accept that for all your guidance she'll have to make it out by herself. Obviously an experience like this could 'taint' any future relationship with this person. But if you step back and be available (if that's possible now), then I'm sure a time will come when she'll need your support. After surviving Landmark, she may need plenty of support and understanding.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.