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Europe-girl
@Jack, I'd like to remain anonymous, so I'll keep it at "Europe". :wink:

Ooops. Didn't mean to pry. Sorry.

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This is probably the best advice. She's lost it for awhile, like lost on a altering drug. You have to accept that for all your guidance she'll have to make it out by herself. Obviously an experience like this could 'taint' any future relationship with this person. But if you step back and be available (if that's possible now), then I'm sure a time will come when she'll need your support. After surviving Landmark, she may need plenty of support and understanding.

Jack Oskar Larm,
Thanks for your words and I believe you're right. I do need to step aside and let go of wanting to control and 'break' the impending fall. Maybe that won't even happen, maybe she'll just wake up one day with a full awakening, thinking to herself "those f--kers!!" Or maybe I need to plan for a time when she needs a friend that she does not think will judge her or reject her. I may have caused some damage there, I hope it isn't permanent. Hindsight really sucks too.
I've never been in a position of having to watch someone self-destruct in a cult. I've seen destruction with drugs, alcohol and sick relationships, not this! It just seems too absurd that it should have the same devasting effect or death grip. I am only beginning to realize fully that this 'cult epidemic' is right up there with other mind grabbing/altering drugs and anyone is fair game if they try it. I am so absolutely powerless and so pissed off.
I feel the most hope when I go over the posts of ex-LE staff and members and see that there is life and recovery after LE. I'm so sick of this roller coaster ride and so sick of being pissed off about it. This letting go stuff is easier said than done, in fact its down right humiliating in its difficulty! :(

ON2 LF, for what's it's worth: usually when people are involved they think they're happy. And not everybody comes out destroyed. It's like that for me. Realising that may take away some of your grieve... I understand you're anger though, that's harder to tackle... Like others said before; be available. And don't hit yourself over the head having done damage, you're human too.

Jack, you can pry all you want. I'll just decline. :wink: I understand your curiosity! I just don't feel like people I know whatching over my shoulder - as I said before, I think Landmark is reading here too. I'm not afraight for any legal threats or anything, just want the freedom to express myself.

I'm gonna be busy the next couple of days, and may write less here, but I'll surely be back.

Once you have been indoctrinated during the first course you seem to suddenly have the answer for all things that can arise about "what it is to be human". The human being is seen as a machine just like the engine of a car. If something is wrong with the car you would as someone with DISTINCTIONS about what a car is to get it mended. Landmark works in perfect analogy with that example. That's why people seem to have answers for everything you throw at them - also critisism about landmark itself. Any complaint you might have about landmark is exactly that - a complaint that is part of the faulty machinery HUMAN BEING.

So it will be discarded as junk coming out of your mouth. It takes a great sense of mastery to look at yourself from the outside in such a situation because they teach you that not only are you a machine - you have no way to release yourself from being a machine. The machine consists of your RACKETS and WINNING FORMULA and your STORIES.

A critic of landmark can easily be brushed of as such a machine that DOESN'T KNOW ITS ASS FROM A HOLE IN THE GROUND (as Werner E would have put it).

The only way out of being a machine is to BE YOUR POSSIBILITY. Your possibility could have been INTEGRITY AND PASSION. By stating yourself to be that you would no longer be caught up in the machinery of A HUMAN BEING.

One thing that could possibly work is to ask the person you try to communicate with is to ask the what POSSIBILTY they have created themselves to be. Then listen for anything that doesn't seem to fit into the picture and point that out. Ask them what Landmark has created themselves to be. Try to find chinks in the armour.

When it comes to landmark they want to portay themselves as an educational organization. Ask what business the brainwashing part has in education.

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One thing that could possibly work is to ask the person you try to communicate with is to ask the what POSSIBILTY they have created themselves to be. Then listen for anything that doesn't seem to fit into the picture and point that out. Ask them what Landmark has created themselves to be. Try to find chinks in the armour.

When it comes to landmark they want to portay themselves as an educational organization. Ask what business the brainwashing part has in education.

I've tried to use to some of the obvious gaping holes in the defenses programmed into my friend, and I think the one I almost successfully debunked is the "you've never been to a forum so therefore you have no clue..." I also stumbled onto what I believe is another programmed defensive response. I suggested the RR site for information on mind control etc., and how Landmark fits the bill for being a destructive psycho-cult. I got a very instant reply of "Rick Ross has never even been to a forum, in fact Landmark has offered to let him take one for free and he refused!" It was as though this statement was supposed to cover everything. And apparently LE has documented 'proof' that he refused their kind offer. I informed my misinformed friend that LE actually refused to let him take a forum. I could not recall the reason during the conversation :x , but I remembered later it was because he would not sign their BOGUS waiver/contract that all forum participants are expected to sign thereby freeing LE of all dreaded accountability for the harm they can cause. I hope I have my facts straight?
Anyway, the response sounded totally like the many standard programmed auto-responses. I find it amazing that an individual person would pose such a threat to LE as to be woven into its repertoire of defensive responses to critics! My friend of course denies that LE lost bitterly in its last attempt at suing the Ross institute. I didn't get the story behind that claim. The most common response I get however, is no comment, no response and no answers to my very pointed questions about why such behaviors and contradictions.

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Europe-girl
Jack, you can pry all you want. I'll just decline. :wink: I understand your curiosity! I just don't feel like people I know whatching over my shoulder - as I said before, I think Landmark is reading here too. I'm not afraight for any legal threats or anything, just want the freedom to express myself.

Part of my curiosity stemmed from all the anti-Landmark activity in Europe, which I fully support (because it is waranted, trust me, I'm not a closed minded fanatic by nature); and the other reason was because I was born in Europe. I am excited by the social welfare policies of many European countries. I think they're a progressive model for other first-world countries to follow. Or, at least, to consider. But this is certainly going off topic. :lol:

I think the key thing is to keep open communication with the person involved within landmark. Listen to what they say and try to not criticise it. Try not to show your thoughts when they say they doing something with landmark.

When all the shite hits the fans, they will know who has been there adn who hasn't.

eventually they will see the light.. the question is how long are you willing to stand by and just be there

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I think the key thing is to keep open communication with the person involved within landmark. Listen to what they say and try to not criticise it. Try not to show your thoughts when they say they doing something with landmark.

This is difficult because when I just sit back and keep my opinions to myself, the assumtion is made that I support the LE crap. I think I may have attacked LE too much already to be remembered as a friend who really cares when the shiite hits the fan. Its like locking horns with a rebellious teenager, you put your foot down and stand your ground, you're 'the enemy', you go along and pretend like its all ok, you're an ally.
I've not gone along like its ok, I care more than my friend is able to see but she will never think of my negative response to LE as concern. So, really its up to her and how desperately she wants a friend in her life when its over. My wish is that she could talk to people like you and others on this forum, I think reality would begin to take hold then. I'm just the picture of what Le programming warns new recruits against.

to add to last comment; she's not a new recruit. In fact she gives the same warnings about nay sayers and critics to new recruits that were pounded into her head when she was new.

I can only let you know what i found helpful. You can say you don't agree with landmark but leave it at that. if you try and convince her of why they are so wrong you will drive a big wedge between the two of you.. Its a very fine line and to be honest it all depends on how much you value the relationship, because landmark will push to win and if that means losing relationships so be it