like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 16, 2007 03:30PM
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I can only let you know what i found helpful. You can say you don't agree with landmark but leave it at that. if you try and convince her of why they are so wrong you will drive a big wedge between the two of you.. Its a very fine line and to be honest it all depends on how much you value the relationship, because landmark will push to win and if that means losing relationships so be it
I think I've driven that wedge right from the beginning. I did not know in the beginning not to go into an all out attack of the cult. Major damage done there, and I think only a true and literal miracle will save whatever friendship we had. I have great difficulty with pretense, especially with a friend, and I didn't hold anything back when I realized what LE really is!I'm afraid this experience is ending in loss for me.
I can't even describe how my new realization of cults and the many faces of cults has affected my life. Whatever course I was on a year ago, it is forever changed in my attitude toward every major aspect of life, people, and what is or isn't real. I've also come to realize how evil a person has to be to dream up something like LE and think it's a great way to make money. Only a thoroughly corrupted and toxic character sleeps at night with that kind of guilt riding on his back.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Maggie
()
Date: January 17, 2007 01:44AM
I would not suggest sitting by and supporting her and not talking about it. That won't do any good for her OR for you. Why should you have this constant struggle in your life??
I think you need to sever the relationship. Then and only then will she 1) stop trying to recruit you 2) stop hurting you and 3) perhaps come to the realization that LE is ruining her life.
TOUGH LOVE -- refused to be involved. If she is involved then she can't be in your life.
Like one of the other posters said.. it's like dealing with a drug addict. Until she feels a sense of loss or hits bottom, the "drug" will keep working for them. If you're always around, you're sending a silent message that you support her.
I think you need to sever the relationship. Then and only then will she 1) stop trying to recruit you 2) stop hurting you and 3) perhaps come to the realization that LE is ruining her life.
TOUGH LOVE -- refused to be involved. If she is involved then she can't be in your life.
Like one of the other posters said.. it's like dealing with a drug addict. Until she feels a sense of loss or hits bottom, the "drug" will keep working for them. If you're always around, you're sending a silent message that you support her.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 17, 2007 02:18AM
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Like one of the other posters said.. it's like dealing with a drug addict. Until she feels a sense of loss or hits bottom, the "drug" will keep working for them. If you're always around, you're sending a silent message that you support her.
I gave much consideration to the 'tough love' approach earlier on but then I realized it doesn't apply to an LE addict because any relationship that is not involved with or interested in LE, doesn't even exist anymore. If its not about LE, its about a waste of time and the only reason to even speak to someone outside LE is because they represent a potential stat later on.
I won't have to sever the relationship because my friend is one who, even without LE's brainwashing, is never wrong about anything and views me to be unaccepting, judgemental and conditional. Even if she snaps out of her trance today, she will still see me as the one person in her life who did not support her. It's finished. It's been a good lesson for me and you can bet I won't be seeking to 'see it through' with anyone again who is involved in anything that reeks of a cult.
MY final conclusion and comment on this topic is: a cult member is a kind of victim that becomes as hurtful, cruel and selfish as their victimizer is, even when their intentions are great and noble, and I have no desire to be on the receiving end again.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: January 17, 2007 04:51AM
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ON2 LF
I won't have to sever the relationship because my friend is one who, even without LE's brainwashing, is never wrong about anything and views me to be unaccepting, judgemental and conditional. Even if she snaps out of her trance today, she will still see me as the one person in her life who did not support her. It's finished. It's been a good lesson for me and you can bet I won't be seeking to 'see it through' with anyone again who is involved in anything that reeks of a cult.
MY final conclusion and comment on this topic is: a cult member is a kind of victim that becomes as hurtful, cruel and selfish as their victimizer is, even when their intentions are great and noble, and I have no desire to be on the receiving end again.
LOL -- Sounds like she found a home at Landmark.
Though there are lots of kind, considerate, and thoughtful people who get caught up in this silly stuff, there is a subset who are already tending in the direction of self-centeredness, arrogance, and perpetual immaturity who will cling to the thing when the last shred of evidence has been revealed. I think the former group generally get out when they become aware of the truth behind the facade but the latter group will never admit they've made a mistake and will deny and defend with their dying breath.
I wouldn't give up completely, but I'd certainly distance myself. I might let her know that it's Landmark you're distancing yourself from rather than her, but it won't make much difference to her because Landmark "programming" is designed to intertweave itself with people's egos to the point they equate themselves with the group or "brand." You know, I just thought of something -- just as some sort of provocation, you might (innocently) ask her what she thinks of Lifespring, Actualities, Mind Dynamics, PSI World, or any of the other copy-cats or even scientology. One thing cult members seem to be able to do quite well is critique other cults. They don't lose their critical thinking skills when it comes to their competitors.
Ellen
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 17, 2007 09:50AM
This is the reason I think that the victims have some sense of truth in their role as members of whichever cult they belong to. I mean, they know when what they're saying or doing is wrong at some level but choose to deny conscience. Critical thinking seems to be the first thing to go but how does it return so quickly when confronted with another cult? Is this like a cultic 'fight or flight' response programmed into the 'new and improved' minds of victims?Quote
They don't lose their critical thinking skills when it comes to their competitors.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
sonnie_dee
()
Date: January 17, 2007 05:19PM
Quote
I think you need to sever the relationship. Then and only then will she 1) stop trying to recruit you 2) stop hurting you and 3) perhaps come to the realization that LE is ruining her life.
TOUGH LOVE -- refused to be involved. If she is involved then she can't be in your life.
Like one of the other posters said.. it's like dealing with a drug addict. Until she feels a sense of loss or hits bottom, the "drug" will keep working for them. If you're always around, you're sending a silent message that you support her.
As someone who was on the lekkie, I lost many friends and yes that was my fault but I can tell you the friends I retained are the ones who let me know they didn't agree with my life choices but they were there for me. They asked me not to discuss or sell landmark to them and they had to keep reminding me but they didn't treat me like an addict and I am thankful they didn't.
When the sh*t hit the fan they were the ones who came to me and helped me recognise without treating me like I was stupid. It takes a lot to remain a friend with someone involved in landmark. But the friends who can stick it out through good and bad are the ones that I respect the most.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
skeptic
()
Date: January 18, 2007 01:10AM
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ON2 LF
I think I've driven that wedge right from the beginning. I did not know in the beginning not to go into an all out attack of the cult. Major damage done there, and I think only a true and literal miracle will save whatever friendship we had. I have great difficulty with pretense, especially with a friend, and I didn't hold anything back when I realized what LE really is!I'm afraid this experience is ending in loss for me.
I can't even describe how my new realization of cults and the many faces of cults has affected my life. Whatever course I was on a year ago, it is forever changed in my attitude toward every major aspect of life, people, and what is or isn't real. I've also come to realize how evil a person has to be to dream up something like LE and think it's a great way to make money. Only a thoroughly corrupted and toxic character sleeps at night with that kind of guilt riding on his back.
It took me two years after getting out of the cult until I learned it was a cult. During those two years I was figuring out, "teaching" by "teaching", the lies of the group, and I attempted to discuss my thoughts with my sister, who had gone through the six day "course" a few months before I dropped out. All our lives we could and would have lengthy discussions about everything. She REFUSED to discuss the lgat. When I learned it was a cult, I told her. I was furious at the betrayal and the scamming. My sister said she couldn't listen to me because I was angry.
Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if my attacks on the cult drove the wedge between us. She was a different person after her reprogramming. That is what really ended the relationship. The lgat ended it, not my anger.
I have realized that it was relatively easy to get my sister into the cult, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get her out. She respected and valued my thoughts before she went in, which is why she went in, but now that she has all the answers she sees how misguided I am. Actually, her new view of me is exactly what ought to lead her to question the wisdom of following me into the cult. (The twistedness in this cult stuff blows the circuits in my brain.....it's hard for me to think about....I try to make sense of something that is non-sense.)
ON2 LF, I totally relate to how everything is different for you now, even so far as what is real and what isn't. I have been deeply confused for several years now.
skeptic
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
Jack Oskar Larm
()
Date: January 18, 2007 06:09AM
Quote
ON2 LFQuote
...Critical thinking seems to be the first thing to go but how does it return so quickly when confronted with another cult? Is this like a cultic 'fight or flight' response programmed into the 'new and improved' minds of victims?
It's a defence mechanism held up by their righteousness, their arrogant belief that they are now masters of their own destinies. Any view that comes even close to contradicting or confusing the LGAT mind is treated with some level of hostility. So, yes, it does seem related to the primal urge to 'fight or flight'. I suppose all we can hope is a change of subject. I personally never initiate a 'Landmark' discussion, but wait for the 'Graduate' to make reference to it. It's never pretty. It never feels satisfying. But in the back of mind I suspect that some 'progress' is made to keep the sanity of critical thinking and enquiry alive. Just a flicker.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 18, 2007 01:41PM
Quote
When the sh*t hit the fan they were the ones who came to me and helped me recognise without treating me like I was stupid. It takes a lot to remain a friend with someone involved in landmark. But the friends who can stick it out through good and bad are the ones that I respect the most.
sonnie_dee,
I had such great intentions of being the kind of friend that your true friends were to you. I even lasted for a year by always reminding myself that my buddy would need someone near by when things fell apart. I began to find myself being used for things that required the not-so-fun aspect of daily life like the up keep of a house, yard etc... Landmark doesn't leave a person any time to get stuff like that done. That is when I seemed to come in handy. Wanting to be a real friend, I helped without asking any questions or expecting anything in return. Not entirely true, I expected a return of the same respect I gave.
Anyway, this getting used but being totally excluded from the side of friendship where you hang out, socialize or just do something fun together, started to get old since all these things were reserved for potential LE recruits or LE friends. In fact, my friend was so avoidant of me that she would not go anywhere with me or do anything with me without another person around. This came from being coached about me and my landmark slamming, of course. The coaches made sure she did not spend any time alone with me after the beginning of her LE life. But, if she ever needed any favors or help with things, it was ok to call me. Especially if my help enabled further landmark activities and courses, trips etc..If something practical and real needed getting done, I heard from my friend. When there was something fun to do, somewhere to go and relax or just a social get together, she avoids me.
I began to take this treatment personally after having decided not to do that. I knew from the start that she was no longer functioning like a respectful or considerate person. I ignored the being used and being treated like a leper for a long time. Then I stopped being available at a moments notice, I no longer put aside things I needed to get done in my own life just to be there. I also started hearing from her alot less.
To this day, any contact with me is still centered around needing help with things that LE stuff doesn't allow time for, basically anything practical like everyday chores, responsibilities etc...
I would so much like to be the way your friends were with you, and just stand off at a distance and not say anything. Those are the kind of people I respect too, so you can imagine the respect I lack when I look in a mirror lately.
As I said before, I cannot pretend. I couldn't just stand by and watch someone I once knew to be free, competent, and alive, trickle down to an abyss created by LE. That was my roughshod way of dealing with it but I agree with what your friends did with you, and I thank God they stuck by you!
I haven't completely shut the door on my friend but since she quit her career to follow LE and will be moving away soon, I realize that I will be of no use to her wherever she ends up, and I will therefore not be on her list of 'frequently called people', not that I have been for a while anyway. I feel as though 'the high road' has been futile and opened up the door to more punishment instead. I am not being the good friend I thought I could be, in fact I'm giving up. If another day comes where my friend wants a friendship with me again, I am open to it but without LE. With LE, it is a farce anyway.
I hear what you're saying and frankly, I agree with the stand your friends took because that is what my friend needs as well. It's too late for me not to be critical of LE and argumentative about it, because I have been all along. So the damage is done and if I go and apologize for it, I'm sending a message that her behavior was perfectly ok and I was the idiot in the situation. I've apologized for this before and the apology has never meant anything more than a confirmation of my stupidity to her. If she ever needs or wants a friend when LE is finished sucking the life out of her, I will be there if she wishes to call on me again.
You are blessed to have the friends you have and God willing, I will have a chance one day to prove my friendship to my friend when she is able and willing to receive it.
like to chat about my experience with Landmark
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: January 18, 2007 03:05PM
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Now that I think about it, I'm not sure if my attacks on the cult drove the wedge between us. She was a different person after her reprogramming. That is what really ended the relationship. The lgat ended it, not my anger.
I have realized that it was relatively easy to get my sister into the cult, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get her out. She respected and valued my thoughts before she went in, which is why she went in, but now that she has all the answers she sees how misguided I am. Actually, her new view of me is exactly what ought to lead her to question the wisdom of following me into the cult. (The twistedness in this cult stuff blows the circuits in my brain.....it's hard for me to think about....I try to make sense of something that is non-sense.)
ON2 LF, I totally relate to how everything is different for you now, even so far as what is real and what isn't. I have been deeply confused for several years now.
skeptic
Skeptic,
My friend used to listen to me too. She respected me and trusted my intuition and logic, I wasn't always wrong and ignorant. LE obviously has just one basic generic chip they implant into a person's higher functioning areas of the brain, and it just stays there to antagonize all circuits until something jars it out of place. The good news is that once it is jarred, it can never be replaced or refitted.
It is so sad that your sister thinks you're lost while she is found. I can't imagine losing a family member to this cult! I am so sorry that she thinks LE means more than a sibling.
I have seriously questioned things I knew to be real before the extremely rude LE intrusion and I have even become very doubtful of things and people I once trusted becasue of LE and its convincing yet slimy 'bottom feeder' ways. I began to think that I don't know what is or isn't real anymore and got really pissed off over it all. Then I decided, just today actually, that I'd be giving too much credibility and power to a puny minded crawling little insect that LE is, and I choose to view the world as I did before a year ago and I will continue to be critical in my thinking, and question anything that speaks without a face and eyes.
Landmark education is a piece of crap cult that has managed to worm its way into many lives and does not deserve the courtesy we would give to an invited guest. I will question alot of things with a new found wisdom and insight from now on, but I will not allow LE and its sociopathic ([i:f874eaa7f5]researched[/i:f874eaa7f5]) bullshit to take another iota away from the quality of my life, mind, and freedom. Nothing LE does can make sense because it is all about nonsense, it is a waste of time or energy to try to figure out or point out how STUPID LE programming is or how [b:f874eaa7f5]nonsensical[/b:f874eaa7f5] it all is, once installed. I will continue to take the pleasure of slamming LE at every opportunity however, because I am still pissed off and like to vent about it.
Other than that, LE has NO more permission from me to invade my intellect, my heart or any part of my life with its BOGUS psycho-spewing garbage.
I too understand recovery and how inadequate its processes seem to be sometimes. I have been in recovery for many years from addictions, I understand how difficult it is to get every defective thought structure and wall torn down, erected by the loads of lies we bought into. Those structures do come down however and normal thought patterns do emerge. The cool thing about the re-emerging normal thought patterns is that they are much like a broken bone. When you break a bone, calcium builds up around the break to heal it and in doing so that part of the bone is stronger than the rest of it because it is reinforced. The old thought patterns that were broken apart to accomodate the lies and counterfiet thought patterns of LE or whatever destructive choices made, will not only heal once revived but they will be stronger than before LE came and shattered them. Those normal thought patterns are getting stronger everyday, the doubts and the confusion are a waste of effort because they are on their way out. Like addiction, the remnants of LE mindblasting will get bundled and burnt. They will try to resurface but are only a 'NO' away from being silenced again. The resurfacing attempts get fewer and fewer as each 'NO' is given. My beginning recovery felt like psychological rewiring at a bottom-up level before I began to gain clarity and confidence.
So skeptic, I hope you too will NOT allow Le to mess with your life, your mind, your reality, or your freewill another minute! Your sister is still out there true, but LE does NOT need to be left running rampant in your psychological circuitry for you to care about her. I think we all make the mistake of giving this poor excuse of a 'self help' group way too much quality thought and analysis.
LE is crap and doesn't really deserve any other consideration. When our friends and families become consumed by the spewings of this dung heap, we can wait and be patient (something I didn't do before :cry: ), they will see the light sooner or later. We have something to give them that LE doesn't, and that is truth, real love, and real kindness. Sooner or later, they will miss when they had these simple pleasures and will return. Unless they are incapacitated in some way because of the programming, in which case more attention can be brought to the authorities.
Sooner or later, someone in power will hear and see that there is a truly valid reason to be concerned about the free-for-all nature of LE and other lgats with similar 'qualities'.
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