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Europe-girl
But neither does a "an interest in music" comply with this discussion. It's one thing to be interested in music, it's another thing to have been in a rock-band. There's a difference in climbing the Matterhorn and heaving read a book about it or watching people descending the Matterhorn after they've done it. Of course there truth to the idea of having to have an experience in order to fully comprehend something.
Jack, I wish you would stop talking about "fence sitting", as you're missing the delicacy of this matter.

Regarding 'fence sitting', I'm obviously no authority on the matter. I just call it the way I see it. Sitting on the proverbial fence is a noble cause when we are suspending judgement. But a time comes when the evidence on one side of the argument/discussion knocks you off ... In my opinion, there are three basic states of mind here at RickRoss. There are 'fence sitters' who are usually happy to listen (suspending judgement) until they have an opinion either way. Then there's the 'against' type who has weighed up the evidence and is strongly opposed to what's on the other side of the fence. And, finally, there's the 'for' type (usually a Troll) who strongly supports the ideals, methods and paradigm of the ' :evil: evil empire' :twisted: .

It's obvious where I stand ...

I don't think it is fair to dismiss my music analogy so flippantly. I could have mentioned a number of other pursuits, such as, learning to ride a bike or learning to speak publically. I think you missed the point. To spell it out - I have no formal training in music, but I pursued it through my poetry, my willingness to learn the guitar, joining a 'rock band', recording in a studio and playing live and on the radio. To date, I have penned almost 100 songs and my first solo album will be recorded this year. So, what was that about music being irrelevant to this discussion. Or am I just advertising myself?

The point is, I don't need LGATs to improve my lot. Pure and simple. (And I seriously doubt most people need it, either. Some, obviously, do.).

And, please, remind me what the delicacy of the matter is?

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Europe-girl
I think you're being presumptious as to where I stand. I've have been judged for years, and I'm not enjoying being judged here now by you. You know little about me. And it seems to me like you've never experienced what I'm going through first-hand. Consider that it might be easier watching it all from the sideline in stead of having to deal with it yourself.

Of course I'm being presumptious. But I hope that my assumptions are based on what is offered here by honest and sincere people. I'm not judging you as much as I'm trying to understand what it is you're trying to achieve here. Of course I know little about you, except the threads of information in your posts.

But hang on, it may seem to you that I haven't experienced what you've experienced, but how can you know? And, anyway, that's kind of obvious because we don't exist in the same body. I wonder who's really doing the insulting and the judging.

But, guess what, I won't be silenced. Sorry.

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No one in the middle of the seduction experiences it as abuse. They think that cute young chickee in the power suit really imagines they're the cat's meow. They think she's hot for them and not for what's in their wallet. They think she's really interested in them as a person and not as an ~enrollment~ stat. The con wuldn't work if people felt "abused." They have to feel good. Without the seduction, it's just a mugging.

If only every would be forum participant would read, understand, and remember what you've said! I think you've summed up the major part of the game. If people left ego at the door, I'm sure at least 90% would slip away unscathed.

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Without the seduction, it's just a mugging.

I may have to quote you again, this is so true, and so funny at the same time! :lol: This applies to every LGAT in operation, but should really be regarded as landmark's most highly revered guiding principle!

Nobody said it better than Corboy a few years ago:




(From the thread "Considering the Forum??? June 2002)

____________________________________________________________________________
You cannot empower people
by covertly manipulating them through use of trance.

Treating people as objects for manipulation does not empower them, no
matter how good the manipulation makes them feel.

Covert use of trance is like crack cocaine: they both do things to
your brain and CNS that make you feel good, but its not sustainable in
the very long run, and it happens at the cost of your full humanity.
The embezzlement of your humanity happens gradually so you do not at
first understand that you're being ripped off--the initial bliss hit
conceals all that.

Its just like a pickpocket smootching/snogging you, getting you all
horny and, while you are unaware of it, slipping your wallet out of
your back pocket.

-----

Landmark and other groups like it
are cardsharks who offer you a game of poker, but use a marked deck
without telling you.

When you're enticed into a game where the other guy is using a marked
deck, and you have not been told it is a marked deck, it is no longer
a game.

You may 'feel' like you're playing, you may have a great time with all
the charming company, well mixed drinks and general ambiance, but its
not a game. It is robbery and you're the one being robbed.

Landmark is the psychological equivalent of running a dishonest casino
with the decks marked and the dice loaded. You'll be given thrills.
You'll be made to feel good. But the nice people standing up and
telling moving stories of how their lives were transformed--they are
not for real. They are 'plants'--just as casinos often have
'shills'--employees who gamble-to sit at tables during slow periods
and make the place seem livlier than it is.

Again, you're dealing with hustlers who smootch you and kiss you and
swipe the wallet from your back pocket when you're not aware of it.

That's the spirit of Landmark.
------------------------------------

Excellent summary of what I've come to believe wholeheartedly, is landmark.
It seems that a committment to LE inherently leads to a level of mastery in deception that is malicious and full of intent to do harm to others, and it doesn't matter how well dressed up, disguised, and justified that intention is, it is still a cruel intention. Really, its no different than what an addict becomes in fulfilling the daily requirements for their drug of choice.

@Elena, I totally agree with your analysis in your earlier posting.

@Jack, the thing is: we’re talking about different issues.
I am talking about the process of recovery, retracing my steps. Investigating how much of the things I’ve learned are crab and how much is valuable. As I said before these LGAT’s are smart enough to mix some sane things into the deception.
As I understand you on the other hand, are talking about assessing whether Landmark is a LGAT/cult as it is. As I pointed out before I’m already aware of the fact that Landmark [i:47dfd5806d]is[/i:47dfd5806d].

From where I see it, when you say I’m sitting on the fence, you’re talking about Landmark being a LGAT or not. That’s where I feel misunderstood, and yes I experience you as being judgemental and yes I’m judging you for that.

My guess is you don't see these different matters apart. Once again I'm guessing, but I think your point of view is: if you see Landmark is a LGAT you automatically understand there can be no value with regard to content.
If my guess is right, we simply disagree. And then I would like to leave it at that, since this discussion is taking me somewhat away from my healing process.

The delicacy in this matter is that it simply doesn't work (for me and for others I've seen) to simply say to someone who's been brainwashed, to get rid of all things learned and walk away from it. It is indeed a process of recovery and retracing steps. I think any good therapists would confirm this.

I started this thread to be able to get of my chest what I've experienced and as I see now, as a healing process. That process may not always look like it is going somewhere, but it is.

I am not assessing whether Landmark is a LGAT or not. If it walks on four legs like a dog, barks like a dog and drools at dinner time like a dog ... well, it must be a dog. Note: I mean no offence to dogs. Simply, Landmark is a LGAT. I have no confusion about that.

I think Corboy's quote above is pretty clear that organisations like Landmark have very few, if any, postive or beneficial qualities. I think Landmark is much like an abusive partner. And in this case, just walk away. Yes, it might be beneficial to consider what you've gained from Landmark, but I think at the end of the day you'll discover that the best course of action is just to walk away. Don't turn back.

Please understand that my intentions are not to impede your healing process. I believe part of your healing will come by allowing many points of view on this 'delicate' subject. I certainly have strong views about Landmark and other corporate brainwashing institutes and it could certainly be argued that this could affect my ability to remain objective.

As you've stated earlier, you want to discuss what is positive about Landmark. I hate to be the one to tell you, but here at RickRoss there is little evidence that Landmark has many (if any) positive qualities. Again, I refer you to Corboy's quote above. In fact, the weight of the discussion here reveals that Landmark is a sinister, manipulative and dangerous organisation with little or no regard for its paying customers - somewhat like McDonalds ...

So, continue your healing, because, I suppose, we're all on that journey, too.

Good luck and don't forget to smell the roses and listen to the birdsong.

BTW, where in Europe do you originate?

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I got some positive things out of landmark but went through hell to get it so I would not recommend landmark to anyone. They have no positive contribution to education or life management other then the fact that I can deal with large stress volumes easier simply because nothing has come close to the stress I dealt with at landmark.

To me landmark is almost like dealing with a disease that threatens your life. When you survive you realise you are stronger then you thought. But you wouldn't wish the dealing with the illness on anyone.

That's exactly it. You get stuff out of Landmark, but it takes way more out of you both financially, emotionally and personally. All the good I got doesn't outweigh all that I sacrificed to get it. It doesn't make up for all the time I spent getting all the negative things they put into my head out. It doesn't make up for the toxic people it brought into my life (there were some good who are still here, but none still involved with Landmark). It doesn't make up for my family talking about my cult involvement behind my back (which I found out later) or the humiliation of looking back at coworkers I tried to enroll!

I could have gotten all of what I got that was good somewhere else in a much more humane and healthy way. I was the one who did the work. Not Landmark. They're just a bunch of repackaged theories stolen from others put together in a toxic way to get money and free labor from people at the expense of their mental health, physical health, self-respect and financial stability. Not to mention relationships with non-brainwashed people in their lives.

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Jack Oskar Larm
Landmark employs a kind of barbaric psychology not unlike clear felling a forest to get to a few precious trees. I think that Landmark's views of psychology/psychiatry are similar to those held by Scientology - they think it is suspect and, worse still, they think they have a better, more efficient solution.

It's not even a guess. They pretty much say exactly that in the Landmark Forum and in their marketing pitches. We used to tell people that all the time when we were recruiting them - you get in 3 days what it takes years to get in therapy.

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I am not assessing whether Landmark is a LGAT or not. If it walks on four legs like a dog, barks like a dog and drools at dinner time like a dog ... well, it must be a dog. Note: I mean no offence to dogs. Simply, Landmark is a LGAT. I have no confusion about that.

I have to agree, its like oil and water in a way. You know what part is oil, you know what part is water, and you know the two don't mix. You can't take the 'oil quality' out of oil to make it mix better in water.

LGATS are crap, and you won't find a genuine scent of roses in a pile of crap.