This is a common [i:dffd05c394]apologetic[/i:dffd05c394] argument expressed by those who are seeking to defend a position who are not able to effectively do so. People who are untrained in theology or philosophy who try to argue with those who are, generally reduce themselves to this statement. I'm not saying we are discussing philosophy or theology, however we are arguing here, and the same rules apply. An argument does not have to preclude any claim of anger or passion; in fact in the scholarly disciplines, an argument is usually weakened when it is so fueled.Quote
Skeptic_X
It seems like people only want to hear the bad side and nothing else.
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When I finally stopped looking only at the good...
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When I finally stopped looking only at the good and seeing the bad as good...
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...the unholy harm the Impact Trainings was causing
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Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior...
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It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.
I'll respond to your reply. Perhaps it was my error in not giving any of my background within the body of my reply on this board. I just assumed if you had questions about me you would go look at my other posts. I apologize. You were correct in your assessment of my statement that it was meant to convey that I was under a “self-deceptive and self-illusory” state of mind when I was helping to run the Impact Trainings. In essence, you answered your own “wtf” question. From my own experience and from my research of other similar programs, there seems to be a reoccurring theme within these types of organizations. This is not only a view held by those in charge, but it is also reinforced into the trainees. It is that the program in question has the answer not only for your problems, but they have access to a hidden window that sees into the sickness that exists in the minds of all the people in this world, and only they have access to this window. So not only can they help you solve all of your problems, but it is also your moral duty to join them in the crusade to heal the world “one heart at a time” or using some other bullshit slogan. So it gives people the purpose they have always been "searching and yearning for". The end result fo this purpose is self-feeding and only really is meant to make sure trainees enroll others into the program, for its is the program itself that is healing the world. It is this “golden egg” perspective that lends itself to the idea that the program “can do no wrong”, and that any kind of dysfunction expressed or experienced by anyone who takes the training(s) is entirely accountable and is at fault for it. Essentially the training is non-culpable, and untouchable in the eyes of those who run it. That makes them dangerous, for they adhere to an ethic of “the ends justify the means”, and turn a blind eye to all of the damage, pain, and dysfunction they are directly and indirectly responsible for. Thusly, the self-delusion/illusory conditioning. As far as the “unholy harm” statement, I am merely referring to all of the numerous posts concerning the damage these programs cause, and my own testimony concerning a training I once [i:390fdeefee]helped train[/i:390fdeefee]. (feel free to look at my other posts) As far as how I stopped looking at only the good? Well, I simply started to see that most of the trainees lives never got better (the majority of them actually got worse) and I stopped blaming the trainees and saw Impacts (and my) culpability for what it truly was.Quote
cccoveguyQuote
When I finally stopped looking only at the good...
How did you do that - stop looking? What caused you to stop? How did you realize you had been only been looking at good?As a whole, this sentence makes no sense. Pardon me, but wtf does it mean? If you saw good as good and bad as good, then everything is good. While it's self-deception and self-illusory perhaps, how does it create:Quote
When I finally stopped looking only at the good and seeing the bad as good...That's a very dramatic statement and I want to understand it better. What is/was the [b:390fdeefee]"unholy harm"[/b:390fdeefee]?Quote
...the unholy harm the Impact Trainings was causingAgainst my will and knowledge it is wrong. But, is it still unethical if I understand "manipulation mentale" (as the French say), decide within my own mind the risk vs reward and then give myself permission to learn from these techniques? Are you to say there is absolutely no value in any of this - that in all cases mkp is ultimately more harmful than beneficial, and that no good whatsoever can come out of it?Quote
Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior...Poignant... heartfelt... irrelevant.Thanks for any/all responsesQuote
It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.
How many times do I need to post that I am not trying to defend the MKP as a whole. I am just trying to put a different way of thinking out there. It's true that only negative stories of MKP are received on here with any kindness, any story remotely positive is attacked and down played. It appears that very few are unbiased.Quote
exImpactThis is a common [i:e2745de29a]apologetic[/i:e2745de29a] argument expressed by those who are seeking to defend a position who are not able to effectively do so.Quote
Skeptic_X
It seems like people only want to hear the bad side and nothing else.
I have not, in any way, implied that I am morally superior to anyone here. All I tried to point out is that there is a LOT of gray in between. This is not a strictly good vs. bad subject.Quote
It is so easy to bash nay-sayers for saying nay and accuse them of being negative nellies (shame on them) while you imply moral superiority in walking the high road because you are looking at the good. Looking at the bad does not logically necessarily exclude the good, nor does giving the bad more credible weight warrent any critisism when there is so much evidence to support the weight.
I never claimed to be speaking for an entire group, you are making it appear that I did, but I did not. I clearly stated that it was all my OPINION based on 4 people's experiences. It can also be said that the negative opinions are also a very small group (so far) so that is also not a good sample size.Quote
The main weakness of your claim is due to the diminutive sample size you are using to support it (this is what philosophers and logicians call "commiting a logical fallacy"). You may claim you are not down playing the negative, but believe me, when you say you have a sample size of only 4 men who have had a positive experience with this group to support your position, to this community you are simply stating there are 4 people out of who have (temporarily at least) survived playing russian roulette with their lives, whether they or you are aware of it or not.
It's nice to see that you have resorted to questioning my ethics, it is obvious to me that you did not fully read everything that I said previously. I was very clear that I AM NOT a supporter or a member of this or ANY group. All I did was offer up another story with another view point. I even clearly stated that in some cases I was "playing devil's advocate." (I am going to assume that you are familiar with that phrase.) I even used words like "theorized" I have not once claimed to know what is best for all.Quote
Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior, in my opinion, you may have ethical issues yourself.
I have no clue what you mean by this.Quote
It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.
I appreciate it! Topics like this are always touchy for one or more of the people discussing it. I did not take it personal that you disagreed with me, only that my ethics where questioned and that it was implied that I was simple or unable to understand.Quote
exImpact
I apologize if my opinions seem to be attacking your own. This subject does tend to rile me up. I want you to know Skeptic_X that no matter what I may say, how much I disagree; I still value your opinion as much as anyone else’s, including my own. Opinions are just a point of view, and it is impossible to escape bias of any kind in them. I don't take it personal when someone disagrees with me. Sometimes I forget that some people take disagreement to be ridicule. I did thoroughly read your entire post, and notwithstanding, gave my conclusions regarding it. I am not an Atheist, and I agree with your position against harmful organizations. However it doesn't seem logical that you would post in this forum just to support your family and friends without supporting the organization they belong to. This message board [i:6fb75d6457]is[/i:6fb75d6457] geared toward discussing such groups. Also, I think it is the cowing side effect of mental conditioning that makes victims reluctant to speak, accounting for the small sample size.
Regardless of all this claptrap, it is my [i:6fb75d6457]sincere[/i:6fb75d6457] hope that these men in your life (and you) survive unscathed by their experiences with this group.
My experiences and opinions on this subject are limited to the Impact Trainings and their cult leader, Hans Berger. I do know that he has made his personal motivations the motivations of those that surround him and those who continue in the training do likewise to a lesser degree. There tends to be enough money to go around (the lions share went to the Bergers), but money is usually a secondary (or lower) priority for underlings in cult/religious groups. It is the relationships with the charismatic people and the feeling that you are at the top of the moral food chain that fuels fanaticism. Again, I speak with experience.Quote
Skeptic_X
Here is something that I have been thinking about, and it is only a simple question and I am not trying to bait anyone, I just would like to know...
Most "cults" are set up in order to benefit the "leader" and not the followers. The leader at the top gets all the money, power, glory, and in some cases sex, that he or she wants. The purpose of the group is to satisfy the top people. Who or what benefits from the MKP? What do you think is their motive and true reason behind this group? What is it that you think they are trying to accomplish? Who or what gains from any of this? (I am asking for your, or anyone's, sincere answer.)
No need to apologize - au contraire! There is a LOT of information in all these posts and it's hard to remember who said what sometimes.Quote
I just assumed if you had questions about me you would go look at my other posts. I apologize.
I think you have revealed more truth about why this type of manipulation is deceitful than I have seen expressed anywhere else yet to date. Or, maybe it's just that they have a particular resonance for me - whatever... it set off my #1 [b:afaba2d0cf]BS Recognition Test[/b:afaba2d0cf]: [i:afaba2d0cf]"I and only I have the answer"[/i:afaba2d0cf]Quote
... the program in question has the answer not only for your problems, but they have access to a hidden window that sees into the sickness that exists in the minds of all the people in this world...
...it is also your moral duty to join them in the crusade...
...it gives people the purpose they have always been "searching and yearning for"...
Okay! Now this type of "longitudunal" data is very important as it reveals a lot about the whole... With a lot of the posts I've seen here, I see very personal pain and unique experiences and I'm trying to form an opinion of the bigger picture... the "net-net" so to speak. I believe it is not uncommon that there often has to be some sort of price paid for progress. I do not mean to invalidate or diminish anyone's pain in any way, but if I may make a loose analogy: If you hit your thumb with a hammer, it is then very hard to realistically describe the whole hand - the aching thumb will force itself to the forefront. I'm trying to get perspective on the other nine fingers, so to speak. You provided that. Thank you.Quote
I simply started to see that most of the trainees lives never got better (the majority of them actually got worse)
LOL! A little sensitive, are we? It was a blanket sort of statement that I did not feel had any relevance. That's all.Quote
As far as your questioning of the relevancy of my reply
Gee... sounds like more dogma. Invalidating someone else's experience. So, I'll try to submit all my opinions to the "worthy filter" first.Quote
I will consider it a valid criticism when you contribute something of worth on this message board
You disagree, and I'm sure others will also, but if I enter into this situation with a pre-established sense of self, complete awareness of the techniques and a realization of the pitfalls, what's wrong with that? Yup, yup, I've *been* in therapy for the majority of the past 25 years, and yup, yup, I could blame my therapists as inadequate and yup, yup, I could spend the next 25 years hoping I find one that helps. OR, I could take a few risks, try something "different" on for size, and see if it helps. Spoken to the universe at large, and to no particular person: "Shake me up, baby! Show me see something [b:afaba2d0cf]NEW[/b:afaba2d0cf]"Quote
...other than expressing that a willingness to go and have your head examined by unlicensed, untrained, undereducated and unaccredited “professionals” is perfectly rational and reasonable behavior.