First off....HI!!!

I came across this message board and thread while doing a search for The Woman Within program. Although I do already know quite a bit about the entire Mankind project, and have for several years. I know 4 men that have gone through the weekend training, and 2 of them attend weekly meetings. Out of respect of the 2 men that attend meetings I will not mention them or their experience, but I will say this…they are close to me and I know them well and they are NOT brainwashed. I have known these men for over 25 years so I think that gives me the right to judge. Another man is someone I have know for his whole life, but seeing as how he no longer lives in my city I am unable to gage his personality before and after the weekend, but I do know that he does not attend weekly meetings. The only man that I will talk about from here on out is my husband, who has attended a weekend training but has decided not to join an I-Group. He is the only one that I feel I have a right to talk about, and even at that I will attempt to respect his privacy.

Let me start by saying that I have read almost all of this thread, I have to admit that I skipped a few pages in the middle because I felt that a lot of this is just the same few things being repeated over and over again. (From both sides.) All I am attempting to do here is to voice my OPINION, please don’t take any of this out of context. I am not saying any of this in order to hurt anyone’s feelings.

My husband and I are full on Atheists, so right off the bat you know that means that we are skeptical of ALL spiritual/religious/new age groups. My husband and I have a very strong relationship, we always have and that has not changed. He did go into the weekend not knowing what was going to happen, and I am proud of the courage he showed in order to do that. I, like the other wife mentioned, did not hear from my husband after he left our house Friday, but he did call me as soon as he got into the car to leave. He didn’t wait to get home to talk to me; he called me first and right away. When he came home he was in a very good mood. I already knew that he had to sign a confidentially agreement, heck I’m he one that helped him fill out half of his paper work, so right from the get go he was more then happy to share with me. (And this is important, like I said we have a strong relationship.) So when he got home I did NOT bombard him with questions, I respected his privacy and let him tell me what he wanted to. I think by doing this he actually told me more the he was “supposed” to. So this leads me to believe that the men who don’t share with their wives are secretive anyhow, and were not been open with their wives even before the weekend. (Just my opinion based on what I have seen and heard.) The fact that I didn’t pressure my husband and didn’t make him feel defensive actually led him to open up.

Every person will get something different out of their experience, and maybe that means that men that are easily “brainwashed” or are really that susceptible to outside influence should not attend these trainings. My husband did say that compared to the other men there that he was pretty normal and had not suffered some of the TERRIBLE things that they had in their lives. Maybe those men were more “broken” so that leads them to buy into every little thing that was said and done. Of course after reading some of this stuff on this thread I immediately talked to my husband about it, as I became worried. I told him everything that was mentioned on here, all the good and bad. He said he took what he needed out of the weekend, and left what he thought was cheesy or silly behind. He confirmed and denied what some have been accusing on here. Since I read on my own what happens at these weekends he decided to fill in the gaps and correct the misconceptions for me. That added together with what I knew already from him and the 4 other men that went through it and what I have read here has given me a really good picture as to what goes on and what the end results can be. He also laughed at the accusation that was made about men being told to “touch each other’s penises.” Yes there is nudity and talking, but that does not make it sexual. Jokingly we theorized that maybe the man who said that about the sweat lodge and the “touching” was really just fantasizing and was ashamed that he had, in fact, had a homosexual fantasy. (I don’t say that to be mean, I only say it to offer a different way to look at the situation, which is was Atheist’s do. I like to play devil’s advocate.) In the end my husband got a confidence boost and a new sense of empowerment, and that is not a bad thing. Even as Atheists there is still something strong and comforting about ritual and tradition. I fully believe that you can be a “spiritual” Atheist. Or as Richard Dawkins puts it a “religious Atheist.”

As far as the back and forth about the divorce rates of men that go through the weekend, I would also like to see real statistics about that. The people I know that have gone through it are all still married, and my marriage is as strong as it ever was. Just to play devil’s advocate again, consider this…maybe the men that got divorces after attending a weekend were in very bad and destructive marriages? Maybe a divorce was always in the future and the weekend just help move it along? Maybe the men and women affected by the divorces are now happier people?

As for the money issue, I can tell you that we did not put out a single dime for him to attend. No money what so ever. He went on a scholarship. It is my understanding that the people who are able to pay the full fee are also in fact helping to pay for the men like my husband who could not have afforded it otherwise. There money also goes to pay for the land and the facilities that the I-Groups meet in. I am sure somewhere along the line that someone is making money off of this, that’s the way the world works unfortunately. That is no different then the evangelists that make tons of money or the “Christian” stores that profit off of W.W.J.D. merchandise. (What would Jesus do? I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t sell out like that. Ha ha ha)

Over all I think that ALL religions, churches, and groups such as The Man Kind Project can be “cultish” to anyone who is really that ready to believe every bit of B.S. that is fed to them. I think that in some cases people can gain a good bit of positive things from any such place, but I strongly recommend never believing EVERYTHING you are told, whether it comes from a minister, a preacher, or a trainer during a MKP weekend.

I hope those that feel hurt by the Mankind Project, or any such group, continue to voice their opinions.

Obviously the Mankind Project is not for everyone.....


I welcome any questions and criticisms. :)

I am glad to now be a part of this discussion.

"Skeptic_x":

If you take the time to read the whole thread here you will see that the complaints actually vary a bit.

But the consistent pattern evident from the MKP manual excerpts contained on this thread indicate intentional manipulation, much like other problematic "mass marathon training" groups, such as Landmark Education, Lifespring, Sterling and NXIVM.

There are posted notes about coercive persuasion and how it works within various groups. The criteria would seem to readily apply to MKP as well.

This thread is long and has quite a bit of information, so read it completely before attempting to sum it up.

Here are some helpful links:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

To view the MKP manual excerpts and analysis from the beginning---

Start here -- [board.culteducation.com]

Note that MKP was apparently so concerned about the general public seeing the content of its manual, a copyright legal threat was used to limit the contents of this thread.

However, what remains is sufficient to offer some meaningful general analysis.

Frankly, MKP doesn't seem much different from other mass marathon training. And such groups typically have many problems and complaints.

You say that "MKP is not for everyone," which is a pretty much the standard response used by similar groups and their apologists at other threads within this message board.

However, based upon the constant complaints received about such mass marathon training groups, my take is that they are potentially unsafe and I would not recommend them to anyone under any circumstances.

Thankfully, there are safer and more credible alternatives, such as continuing education, counseling provided by licensed professionals, specific support groups through community services facilitated by licensed professionals etc.

FYI--attempting to blame those hurt by mass marathon training for their own injuries is not a very meaningful response to the damage they often do. But again, this often is something like a standard response typical made by those defending such groups.

Man, I read and re-read my above post several times to weed out spelling and grammatical errors before I submitted it. I see that I still missed a few! I hope that the errors that are still there do not detract from what it is that I am trying to say. A "he" was meant to be a "the" and when I say "4 other men" that should have been "3 other men."
I do know the difference between "there" and "their" but apparently my fingers do not agree with my brain! :)

Sorry, :oops:

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rrmoderator
"Skeptic_x":

If you take the time to read the whole thread here you will see that the complaints actually vary a bit.

I did read a majority of it, in all I maybe only skipped 3 or 4 pages, I do intend on reading more and also reading other threads, but I was anxious to post my thoughts.

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But the consistent pattern evident from the MKP manual excerpts contained on this thread indicate intentional manipulation, much like other problematic "mass marathon training" groups, such as Landmark Education, Lifespring, Sterling and NXIVM.

There are posted notes about coercive persuasion and how it works within various groups. The criteria would seem to readily apply to MKP as well.

I am not disagreeing with that, I actually acknowledge it, but like I said, not everyone is susceptible to that type of coercion. I did say that maybe those types of people are better off not going. I agree that the secretive nature of the MKP is a bit unnecessary in the end.

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To view the MKP manual excerpts and analysis from the beginning---

Start here -- [board.culteducation.com]

I did happed to read this before posting.

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Frankly, MKP doesn't seem much different from other mass marathon training. And such groups typically have many problems and complaints.

I also agree with this, and this is also the way I feel about religion and many other groups. I am not arguing against this at all.

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You say that "MKP is not for everyone," which is a pretty much the standard response used by similar groups and their apologists at other threads within this message board.

Yes I did say that, and believe it. It is not a group for the general public, but does that mean that the men who do get benefit from it should not have that chance? I am not a supporter in general of this or any group. I was only posting my opinions and experiences. I am not an "apologist."

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However, based upon the constant complaints received about such mass marathon training groups, my take is that they are potentially unsafe and I would not recommend them to anyone under any circumstances.

I for one don't think I need a group like this, but others may. Who am I to say what others can and can't do.

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Thankfully, there are safer and more credible alternatives, such as continuing education, counseling provided by licensed professionals, specific support groups through community services facilitated by licensed professionals etc.

Once again I agree with you.

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FYI--attempting to blame those hurt by mass marathon training for their own injuries is not a very meaningful response to the damage they often do. But again, this often is something like a standard response typical of those defending such groups.

I did not do this. Can you tell me why you think that I blamed others? I am a bit insulted that you called my response "typical." I though long and hard about this and I am in no way personally associated with this group, it was only an opinion.

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If you follow the links above you will note that this type of response to criticism, by mass marathon training groups and their supporters, is noted by the researcher.

Thank you for the links, I intend to read them all. I do not see how what I said falls into "this type of response."

Skeptic, your post was insightful to read. However, I have to take exception to one area you discussed.

It was my husband who had the incident in the sweat lodge. You must not have read it carefully. They were not told to touch each others penises. The statement made was " you may now reach over and grab your brother's dick. If you brother does not want that, he can remove your hand". It was a suggestion, not an order. I do not think this was a homosexual fantasy of my husband.

He also came home fairly upbeat, and shared most of the weekend with me. However, he did say there was one thing that occurred that he did not want to share with me just yet. He wanted to speak with his sponsor who had recruited him. He told me he would attend graduation, but would not attend Igroup until he had this issue resolved. His sponsor was out of town for about 2 or 3 weeks.

When he met with his sponsor, this man, who is a long term member was also shocked this occurred. When my husband described the man who said this, his sponsor knew right away who this was. My husband was told this was brought up at a meeting with the director, and the man was chastized and told to never do this again. After this happened, my husband told me of the incident.

I resent you implying this did not happen, and was a fantasy of my husband. If it had been a fantasy, why would he tell me in the first place, and why would it be the one and only reason he refused to attend Igroup, and made a decision to not have anything more to do with MKP. Did it ever occur to you there just might be some sick people in MKP, as there are in other organizations?

I have come to the conclusion that MKP groups across the country are very different. Some appear to be fairly harmless, and some are very harmful, and downright dangerous. It appears your husband attended one of the harmless ones.

I also resent you implying that any marriage that was harmed must have been in disarray to begin with. That may be true of some, but not all. What about the young woman who was so concerned about the change in her father. Her mother, and her sister also saw this change. Do you think they just imagined this?

If there were not a drastic change for the worse in a man returning from NWTA, I do not think many women or family members would be seeking forums such as this, and other similar forums. It takes a reason to start hunting this out on the internet. If the changes are all for the good, then wives or family members simply do not look for answers as to the radical change in their loved one. There are no blanket statements that cover all situations. IMO, your post, though well written, was slightly patronizing.

Some of the posters here, once they feel comfortable with another poster, will send their real story via PM. They do not feel comfortable publically posting. They are fearful of being recognized. I have personally received two of the stories, and I can only say, they are shocking. They make what happened to my husband seem very mild. One was from a man who was in MKP, and the other from a mom about her grown son. Both these stories were very tragic.

MKP is like other organizations. Take the Catholic church. I do not presume to believe each and every priest is a child molester. Nor do I believe each and every church would tolerate a priest abusing children. However, it has gone on in many churches. The same with MKP. Some are OK, and some are downright bad.

I would personally wish you would respect the stories told here, and unless you can prove them false, take these people at their word. Most people have more to do in their life, than come here to make up lies.

Skeptic_x:

You say,

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Maybe those men were more “broken” so that leads them to buy into every little thing that was said and done.

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maybe the man who said that about the sweat lodge and the “touching” was really just fantasizing and was ashamed that he had, in fact, had a homosexual fantasy. (I don’t say that to be mean, I only say it to offer a different way to look at the situation,

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I did say that maybe those types of people are better off not going.

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It is not a group for the general public

All of these statements tend to blame those that complain, rather than examine the structure, dynamics and behavior fostered and/or manipulated by MKP and its leaders.

Again, fairly typical of many that defend mass marathon training.

Skeptic, one other item. MKP very strongly recruits out of 12 step programs. Yes, many of these men need therapy, not NWTA. Because of the secrecy, these men know nothing about what to expect. And yes, these are the men who are usually more harmed than others like your husband.

But sadly, most of the recruiting is in AA, NA, SA. This is where my husband was recruited. On his weekend, he recognized many men from his group. So many he was shocked. The carpet work and other areas can be very emotionally damaging to men from these backgrounds. Many addicts have damaged young lives which is what drove them to addictions. The non-professionals at NWTA can do a great deal of harm to these men. This is my biggest problem with MKP. The recruiting of already emotionally damaged men. And yet, they call themselves an educational organizations, and emphatically state they do not do therapy. Bullshit!

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rrmoderator You say that "MKP is not for everyone," which is a pretty much the standard response used by similar groups and their apologists at other threads within this message board.
Skeptic X Yes I did say that, and believe it. It is not a group for the general public, but does that mean that the men who do get benefit from it should not have that chance? I am not a supporter in general of this or any group. I was only posting my opinions and experiences. I am not an "apologist."

You may well have put a lot of thought into your response and sincerely feel that you have come up with a unique opinion but as rrmoderator said it is entirely typical.

Yes you are an apologist. Your contribution to this thread is to attempt to justify the organisation using the exact same reasoning that all cult and destructive group members use to defend their organisations. It is a lot easier to do this when you are completely single minded about it, ie having interest in only one group of which you have had personal experience of and some allegiance to thinking that they are fine because you are not personally aware of any destruction in them from the limited sample and experience that you have ie as you mention knowing a few people that have been involved.

If you actually took the time to read about other organisations here you would see how similar they all are and that this thread or any other is not as simplistic as a 'few people' who have had bad experiences and are now 'mouthing off' about it. It is obvious you lack insight into the existence and practices of cults and destructive groups due to your own limited involvement (lucky you)

Your arguments are illogical and simplistic.

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I am not disagreeing with that, I actually acknowledge it, but like I said, not everyone is susceptible to that type of coercion. I did say that maybe those types of people are better off not going. I agree that the secretive nature of the MKP is a bit unnecessary in the end.

So you believe that just because people respond to coercive tactics differently that there is nothing at all harmful or unethical about them? The Project is putting itself out there inviting people in with these methods in place and somehow the people that take them up on their offer are to blame for going in in the first instance? Apply some critical thinking to the question of why these tactics are in place? Destructive groups do not want the people that are not sucked in by these tactics, this is why they operate in the way that they do. Again familiarise yourself with the basics of destructive groups and see the patterns that exists. There is nothing special or unique or different about this one.

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I for one don't think I need a group like this, but others may. Who am I to say what others can and can't do.

So what on earth are you doing here trying to defend them then? It is a misconception that those who speak out about cults and destructive groups are trying to dictate what others can and cannot do - a misconception that is perpetuated by suh groups to try to detract from criticism. People have a right to know what an organisation is and what it stands for and to make informed decisions without being subjected to manipulation and coercion. If people still choose to get involved in such things then at least it is their choice. It is not the choice of the group, which as you acknowledge does keep information hidden and does engage in coercive tactics. The fact is that the vast majority of people once they have had access to information about what destructive groups are actually about do not want to get involved - that is the reason that they operate in the manner they do in the first instance, and this method of operation and the harm that it does is what your arguments are supporting.

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cultreporter
Your contribution to this thread is to attempt to justify the organisation using the exact same reasoning that all cult and destructive group members use to defend their organisations. It is a lot easier to do this when you are completely single minded about it, ie having interest in only one group of which you have had personal experience of and some allegiance to thinking that they are fine because you are not personally aware of any destruction in them from the limited sample and experience that you have ie as you mention knowing a few people that have been involved.

Good point! This is what my sister did after she was indoctrinated, which was just when my trance-state started to crack. I wanted to discuss the flaws I was starting to discover. I wanted to talk to her about the difficulties I was having. She dismissed me, on the basis that SHE had not had the experience I had. I have since come to see the larger picture of LGATs and have tried telling her. She has her blinders firmly in place. As you say, she retains her single minded interest in just the ONE organization and in just her experience. The typical self-centered approach that LGATs foster. The whole world revolves around her. She doesn't want to be confused by information that contradicts her programming.

skeptic (not to be confused with Skeptic_x)

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Skeptic_X
. . . but like I said, not everyone is susceptible to that type of coercion. I did say that maybe those types of people are better off not going. I agree that the secretive nature of the MKP is a bit unnecessary in the end.

These types of thoughts belie a lack of understanding and knowledge of LGATs. It's interesting that you think people who are susceptible to coercion are types better off not going. Those are the ones LGATs want, and, also, who is going to weed them out? Not the LGAT!! And not the people themselves who, by virture of the very fact that once they attend, have already been coerced, UNBEKNOWNST TO THEM! The secretive nature is [u:5128f3a78a]necessary[/u:5128f3a78a] for the deception. There is a lot more to LGATs than meets the eye. I was involved in one for six years, trusting it and following it. I did not see the true nature of it. I fell for the LIES. I now know they are not what they appear. BEWARE.

skeptic