I found the site doing a google search. I have a background in Journalism, I can track down anything/anywhere. lol

I believe I stated my concerns in my initial entry, but I'll line them out here to be clear.

1. The Money- I understand it pays for lodging/overhead which includes the electricity of the building, maint., food, as well as insurance, but it seems over the top to me for a "non-profit." I don't like the pressure placed on my husband to recruit or he "might not be able to staff". They are constantly saying there's not enough money for scholarships, yet they meet in a newly built multi-million dollar building. Seems fishy to me.

2. Nudity. You can get to know people and know your true self without circle jerking buck wild in the woods.

3. I'm curious about Woman Within. I've been told they use processes, but they are completely different than those of New Warrior Training.

4. I might still very well go to the weekend to see for myself. I've never been a follower and it would take quite a lot to "brain wash" me, especially if I'm skeptical before the weekend.

5. I do believe there are some good results from the organization. It keeps my husband "in check", meaning his I Group can see through his bull crap and they call him on it. Even real friends and family aren't willing to do that sometimes. My husband is a much more grounded person when he's involved with MKP. I see both sides, but I'd like to know more.

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ginah
A true “brother”, would never ask someone he “loved” to keep secrets from the person that is their life partner.

A true “brother” would encourage a man to be honest with his life partner.

A true “brother” would never ask of his “brother” to share intimacies with him that should only be shared between a couple.

A true “brother” would never ask his “brother” to become involved with activities that are pushing the line to being homosexual espesially when that man is in a heterosexual relationship.

MKP persons have stated to me that these “activities” were created to break down the barriers that men feel about other men who are homosexuals.

I am sorry, I do not have any issues with homosexuals, I do have a problem with men encouraging my husband to participate in “intimate” activities that should only be participated in between a couple.

SHAME ON MKP FOR ENCOURAGING INTIMATE ACTIVITIES TO BE PARTAKEN OF BY MEN WITH MEN WHO ARE IN A HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE. These activities are far to close to being homosexual activities.

Certain activities should only ever be partaken of between a couple, be the couple a man and a man, a woman and a woman, or a man and a woman, or if they choose two men and one woman or one man and two women.

My premise here is that intimate activities should only be between the people that are involved with the relationship. Not some "brothers" joining in and then keeping those activities secret. This would be considered a form of cheating in eyes of most women.

This is the crux of our objections I am sure. These bunch of cookies are not queer, gays are far more loving and respectful of others than MKP members. But in engaging in homosexual acts against basically STRAIGHT men these MKP 'men' (I use the term cautiously) show up queerdom in a VERY poor light. Jeeze - nakedness, hugs and for all we know kisses, perhaps even anal sex, between STRAIGHT men is surely breaking marriage vows BIG TIME. I always thought that there was a gay gene - but perhaps if you are straight and want to become gay all you need to do is go on an MKP weekend. The evidence of the effects are there.

Respectfully : I have experienced this group personally and do not draw the same conclusions posted here. Many of the things posted here are taken entirely out of context to prove the point of view of the writer. I find no ulterior motive or malice in this group. Many of the questions that are drawn here are actually answered by the project and those answers seem to be overlooked here. It is possible that the conclusions drawn here are wrong.
Consider the possibility that there are groups in this world with good intentions and internal safeguards to prevent willful destructive manipulation of others. You do not mention that at any point whatsoever a person may pass, leave, challenge, question, or disagree with anything that takes place at any meeting, process or event. This is paramount in the philosophy of MKP.
This is explained before during and after any type of activity whatsoever.
All monies and bookeeping is open for review by the membership at any time. The organization is transparent and has numerous checks and balances built into the bylaws. It is unfortunate that it is portrayed here in a negative way.

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erin3246
4. I might still very well go to the weekend to see for myself. I've never been a follower and it would take quite a lot to "brain wash" me, especially if I'm skeptical before the weekend.

That's what everyone thinks about themselves, though. Not that it's not true of you, but why risk it?

These groups don't need to 'brainwash' the whole person completely to have an effect.

Wrong, it has been discussed, I suggest you real all postings before making the judgment that passing on process etc. have not been discussed.

The techniques MKP uses makes it almost impossible for a man to pass, as well as makes it almost impossible for "questioning" of MKP. My husband tried to talk about his concerns that MKP was a "cult" during his weekend and at I-Group. He was slammed pretty hard. Questioning was NOT encouraged, it was discouraged. It was made explicitly clear that these were not acceptable questions from him.

As for money etc being open for review, I have been trying to look into this for a very long time, and am not getting anywhere with this. Another MKP sidestep. Posting here that it is available for review looks good in writting, when in actuality, ???? all I have to say is, prove it and post all MKP financial statistics for review on this site for open accountability.

And yes, I agree that MKP is unfortunate that it is portrayed here in a negative way. But, very fortunate for the people looking for true information about MKP. Very fortunate for humanity.

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muaddib721
Respectfully : I have experienced this group personally and do not draw the same conclusions posted here. Many of the things posted here are taken entirely out of context to prove the point of view of the writer. I find no ulterior motive or malice in this group. Many of the questions that are drawn here are actually answered by the project and those answers seem to be overlooked here. It is possible that the conclusions drawn here are wrong.
Consider the possibility that there are groups in this world with good intentions and internal safeguards to prevent willful destructive manipulation of others. You do not mention that at any point whatsoever a person may pass, leave, challenge, question, or disagree with anything that takes place at any meeting, process or event. This is paramount in the philosophy of MKP.
This is explained before during and after any type of activity whatsoever.
All monies and bookeeping is open for review by the membership at any time. The organization is transparent and has numerous checks and balances built into the bylaws. It is unfortunate that it is portrayed here in a negative way.

I suggest a book called "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Thaler Singer Ph.D, she has been recognized as "the foremost authority on brainwashing in the entire world. She talks in this book about how even those aware of the techniques being used on them and how they work are still affected if they participate in these groups, or even if they "stay on the sidelines" and watch. No one, no matter how "strong" you are, or knowledgable, are safe from these techniques, that is how powerful they are.

I have a posting on this site about woman within before, here it is again.

Self-help for women? It’s a scream
A weekend in the country getting in touch with her inner woman didn’t sound scary, but when Genevieve Fox heard the group wail, it was time to run

“You’re on the bitches’ team,” said a woman wearing a pink T-shirt and matching bandana, as she handed me my name badge (I’d given a false name). “We’ll take you to your bedroom.”
I was shown up to my six-bed dormitory. My usher invited me to remove my jewellery and watch, and to forgo make-up. After finding my “object of comfort” (teddy bears had been suggested before we came), I waited to be summoned. Ten minutes later, 30 wide-eyed women, clutching cuddly toys and Linus blankets, trooped down a flagstone staircase, in silence, and in single file, as instructed.

This isn’t reality TV. Nor is it an open prison. It’s called self-development, a Woman Within Training weekend in a country house in Dorset. I had driven there at 6pm on a Friday evening and, with indecent haste, devoured a Snickers bar before getting out of the car, not knowing whether starvation would be one of the tools used to prime me for the catharsis that the weekend is designed to unleash.

At the top of the stairs, I left my bear. I couldn’t face the infantilism. The women were like Margaret Atwood’s handmaidens: obeisant, unnerving. Trooping to the refectory reminded me of fire drills at boarding school. This time we were aged from 20 to 60 and were beginning our descent into the flames of public confessional. Thirty smiling staff members awaited us, flanking the room. Then came the pep talk. “This is not a cult,” said the Woman Within leader.

“This is not therapy.” It is a personaldevelopment programme.

According to the organisation’s website: “Woman Within Training will take you on a journey — a descent — into yourself. Through this descent you are given the opportunity to re-establish connection with the part of yourself that intuitively knows — your ageless wisdom. It provides an opportunity for you to reclaim a part of yourself that may have been lost, stolen, forgotten or fragmented.”

I had first heard about Woman Within after meeting two men who had been on Warrior Weekends, run by the international Mankind Project, a men’s self-help group, which was formed in Wisconsin, the US, in 1987 and has spawned 27 centres worldwide. Woman Within is its sister organisation.

At the centre, we were instructed first in personal-safety guidelines. We were never to leave our group and had to be accompanied by a staff member on trips to the loo. If we were suicidal, we must tell someone. If someone tried to commit suicide, an ambulance would be called. Self-harm and violence against others were off-limits. Wounds had to be covered, to prevent the spread of HIV. These guidelines seemed unnecessary. Only when the night’s first ritual was over did I see that they weren’t.

At 10.30 we filed into the ornate ballroom. Thirty-five women, all Woman Within “graduates” turned staff members, sat in a circle. We formed a circle within. It was time for the confessional. Each woman was invited to share her demons and tell us how she felt and who she wanted to be, using an identical verbal template, which began: “As a wounded animal, I am a . . . (anything from confident female to loving mother).

” You filled in the blanks. The staff went first, all 35 of them, passing a conch shell from woman to woman, then we followed.

An hour and a half later, I had “witnessed” the personal testimonies of more than 60 women. It left me reeling: incest, rape, sexual abuse, domestic violence, parental rejection, discomfort with femininity or sexuality, marital conflict, self-loathing, terminal illness: all human grief was here. But this was no Jerry Springer show. It was no kite-flying celebration of women either. It was about desperate, often very lonely, women seeking the healing power of a community of women.

“This circle is about witnessing the death of the old you and finding the new you,” said the leader, amid the sound of tears. “It is about affirmation and acceptance in a group of women and about discovering the woman within you.”

Confessional was followed by lights out. The next morning, at 7.30, we were woken by the sound of drumming, accompanied by a Native American poem sung by staff members processing along the corridors. I caught the last line: “Oh, mother, carry me, down to the sea.”

Sacred space was being created. As we arrived for breakfast, the ranks of staff broke into Bette Midler’s The Rose, an anthem of self-love. Most of the women wept into their muesli, myself (to my astonishment) included. The group dynamic was working on me. During the rest of that Saturday we joined individual workshops, witnessed by the whole group. Anyone who nodded off, as I did, was prodded awake.

It was the group wail on the Sunday morning that made me determined to flee. Lying on the floor in the theatre, with a staff member crouching behind each one of us, we were invited to give a sound to the pain we were saying goodbye to, thus making way for the new us. Silence gave way to a single murmur. Then the deep exhalations of all the women began, followed by one solitary, mournful yelp. The woman’s yelp turned into a primal scream, long and from the pit of her being. Then another woman let out a high-pitched scream. And then, suddenly, everyone was at it, screaming their heads off.

“These are healing cries,” whispered a staff member who had seen me flinch and scrunch my eyes. “I don’t care,” I thought. “I’m out of here as soon as this group wail is over.” I had to ask permission to leave and there was much genuine concern about my wellbeing. I told them that the screaming made me feel profoundly uncomfortable, that the depth of the despair on display was intolerable. They urged me to stay, assuring me that the rebuilding, “the ascent”, was about to come. Too late, in my view.

Two days later, I attended the Woman Within graduation ceremony, in a hotel in Bayswater, Central London. Most of the women turned up, looking glamorous in make-up, frocks and heels. They bounded up to each other and hugged each other. “You look great!” said an older woman to one of my dorm mates. “Oh, I feel it,” she beamed. They then stood up, one by one, and said thank you for the weekend. “I like myself for the first time,” said one, tearfully. “I’m not afraid,” said another. I was the only dissenter, sitting in the audience, declining to take part.

How, I wondered as I held the graduation rose I had been handed, would they feel in a week, a month, a year, after they had rejoined the outside communities over which they had no control? Would their new, confident, trusting selves survive the rigours of the real world? Lee Chalmers, a life coach, says that women sign up for courses such as Woman Within willingly and because they are ready to embrace change. Doing such self-development courses, she says, gives you another perspective. “When you leave you’ve gained another choice on how to view your life. You can go back to the way you used to see it, or embrace the new way.”

She adds that weekend courses share certain similarities with therapy: “But they can’t replace the therapeutic process. There’s a support that exists in therapy and a process that couldn’t exist in a single weekend. But you can look at the same issues. You’ve got to be willing to look at your life. If you don’t want to change, there is no point in going to a course about change.”

Others are more sceptical. Maurice Nissum, a consultant psychiatrist and analyst at London’s Group Analysis Practice, is particularly worried by the speed of the process. “It sounds incredibly quick, almost like a revivalist church,” he says. “The idea is that the person will be purged. But that is naive. Groups like this work on an illusion of an instant cure: if you reveal all and express all your emotions, you will be transformed. But very few people are transformed.” He argues that discovering emotional transparency can backfire. “These groups glorify the individual, then they throw you out into an uncertain world. You are supposed to be open about your emotions, but you make yourself very vulnerable. If the next person you share your insecurities with doesn’t speak your touchy-feely language, you could be left out in the cold. ”

Julia Wilson, who co-ordinates Woman Within in the UK, says that it isn’t a short-term project, but a “self-development weekend, leading to belonging to a community that offers ongoing support for women by women”.

But what alarmed me most, aside from the distress caused by being exposed to the heartbreaking stories of more than 60 women, was the power of the group to make people blurt, believe and emote without rational constraint. If that’s your bag, for £495 you can join a Woman Within weekend. As you might easily be able to guess, I won’t be there with you.

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erin3246
I found the site doing a google search. I have a background in Journalism, I can track down anything/anywhere. lol

I believe I stated my concerns in my initial entry, but I'll line them out here to be clear.

1. The Money- I understand it pays for lodging/overhead which includes the electricity of the building, maint., food, as well as insurance, but it seems over the top to me for a "non-profit." I don't like the pressure placed on my husband to recruit or he "might not be able to staff". They are constantly saying there's not enough money for scholarships, yet they meet in a newly built multi-million dollar building. Seems fishy to me.

2. Nudity. You can get to know people and know your true self without circle jerking buck wild in the woods.

3. I'm curious about Woman Within. I've been told they use processes, but they are completely different than those of New Warrior Training.

4. I might still very well go to the weekend to see for myself. I've never been a follower and it would take quite a lot to "brain wash" me, especially if I'm skeptical before the weekend.

5. I do believe there are some good results from the organization. It keeps my husband "in check", meaning his I Group can see through his bull crap and they call him on it. Even real friends and family aren't willing to do that sometimes. My husband is a much more grounded person when he's involved with MKP. I see both sides, but I'd like to know more.

Hello all -- After spending a lot of time reading from page 1 through the last entry today, I am making a posting as a new member. (And, I love reading entries from what2do and Ginah -- because they are passionate and want to learn and share.) Personally, I've been involved in MKP since I did my NWTA in 2004. The experiences I've had have not included anything near what I've read for some folks or their spouses/family members. I had doubts and fear about doing the weekend, but researched it and felt I made an educated decision. After being told about the weekend by my therapist, I brushed off the idea for a couple of years and then came back to him when I was ready to hear more about it. (He is also a member of MKP.) The first two questions I jokingly asked him were: Do I bang drums in the woods and do I have to get naked? His response: What if you do? He neither confirmed nor denied anything -- which I appreciated because it kept the secrecy, but allowed me to work through my own fear beforehand. My weekend was no more phsyically demanding than when I was iniated into my fraternity, at no time was I forced/required to do any thing, and nothing took place that I perceived as sexual (such as touching other men's genitals or "circle jerking"). I'm sad to hear of experiences where people felt misled or deceived, but not surprised that it has happened.

After the NWTA, I chose to continue with the 10 week Integration Group training. My group did not partake in anything like shaving each other, holding each other, or massaging one another -- activities I would question even if my I-Group had spent years together. That's just weird to me. If I were to stop attending I-Group next week, I know my I-Group would still welcome me at anytime to visit or rejoin. Or if I told them I didn't want to be a part of this anymore they would follow my lead, they would respect that decision, and let me be. (I'm recalling one of the earlier posts about why no one called her husband back, because it did sound sad -- but I can also see how the men were maybe respecting the decision he had made or non-verbally communicated. But also, if they had continued to call, maybe it would be perceived as harrassment by the same family. Better safe than sorry?)

My approach with MKP has been to take what works for me and leave the rest behind. I don't take it all as gospel and reading some of the points on here, I do have a few questions that I want to better understand before I invite other men to participate. (Especially around the finances and the whole re-birthing thing was too intense for me to view, I must admit.)

As far as the secrecy...I told many of the significant people in my life what issues I had worked on during the weekend, including some of my "Saturday night" work. I have always honored the "secret male ritual" -- which to me means not detailing the process of what/how things take place. But I couldn't wait to share with my family information about my "spirit guide", "mission", "affirmation", and some of the stuff I was able to get in touch and bring to the surface.

So my questions are -- can I be in a cult this long and not know it? Can I take what works for me and leave the rest behind? Can I support the men who are getting what they need in ways that don't work for me? Can I grieve for some of these folks on here who have had negative results and support them without being seen as the enemy or a "troll"? (Which is a new term for me.)

Help me learn and help me share. Peace -- greatdane

greatdane:

MKP seems to have the same problems other mass marathon training groups or LGATs (large group awareness training) have had historically.

This is detailed point-by-point elsewhere in this thread, complete with quotes from the organization's manual and also links to coercive persuasion and mass marathon training studies.

MKP comes across as manipulative and controlling and there have been significant complaints.

Rather than examining a group and its process many participants and members of LGATs instead attempt to blame those that have been hurt by the group as somehow responsible for their own injuries.

Instead, it's meaningful to look at the group's practices and how they may be responsible for hurting people.

It's not just about your "experience," and there are others who had a very different results and experiences with MKP.

Thank you for your information. I understand that some groups in similar circumstances may respond by blaiming the victim. Never would I respond that way and never would I support any man within my circle to respond that way. The complaints I've read today make me sad because I can envision how some men may put their own twist on things or say what they want to say in order to get people to do what they want (coerce?) For instance, it's my understanding that the carpool arrangement was put in place to give men the opportunity to begin to get to know another person with whom they'll be sharing this experience from the beginning. It also gives these men an opportunity to reflect on the weekend as they ride home together. I would NEVER lie and say it's because there isn't enough parking.

My goal here is to learn more about MKP from other sources and to share some of the things I've seen -- both good and bad. I can share only from my experience. (So I'll try not to talk in extreme "always" and "never" terms.)

I've gotten so much good from my experience, but I still since something underlying. That's why I feel blessed to have worked with such a strong group of men who have mentored me from the beginning and taught me to be a man among men.

Best to all -- Peace -- greatdane

greatdane:

Start from the very beginning of this thread and read the excerpts from the MKP manual with comments.

Also read the linked research on mass marathon training and coercive persuasion.