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Skeptic_X
It seems like people only want to hear the bad side and nothing else.

This is a common [i:dffd05c394]apologetic[/i:dffd05c394] argument expressed by those who are seeking to defend a position who are not able to effectively do so. People who are untrained in theology or philosophy who try to argue with those who are, generally reduce themselves to this statement. I'm not saying we are discussing philosophy or theology, however we are arguing here, and the same rules apply. An argument does not have to preclude any claim of anger or passion; in fact in the scholarly disciplines, an argument is usually weakened when it is so fueled.
That aside, this quoted statement is irrational in a very mundane and commonsensical way. Here is an example that is not so subtle: When do you call 911? When everything is ok? When your football team is winning? When your husband decides to lose 60 lbs and starts hitting the gym regularly? Of course the answer is no. You call 911 when everything is going to hell-in-a-handbasket and wrong is the order of the moment. We pay more attention to what is going on that is wrong because function is a more preferrable state of affairs than dysfunction, and in order to have it, it must needs be that the dyfunction be the one who gets attention. It is so easy to bash nay-sayers for saying nay and accuse them of being negative nellies (shame on them) while you imply moral superiority in walking the high road because you are looking at the good. Looking at the bad does not logically necessarily exclude the good, nor does giving the bad more credible weight warrent any critisism when there is so much evidence to support the weight.

The mere existence of this forum is self evident of the warrented justification for such weight. It is also not as simple as the [i:dffd05c394]amount[/i:dffd05c394] of bad vs. the [i:dffd05c394]amount[/i:dffd05c394] of good, because 1) this is difficult to quantify and 2) certain immoral acts are not subject to quantity, rather they have intrinsic immoral magnitude. The reaction you are witnessing from the people in this forum is a reaction to your downplaying of the negative experiences shared here. The main weakness of your claim is due to the diminutive sample size you are using to support it (this is what philosophers and logicians call "commiting a logical fallacy"). You may claim you are not down playing the negative, but believe me, when you say you have a sample size of only 4 men who have had a positive experience with this group to support your position, to this community you are simply stating there are 4 people out of who have (temporarily at least) survived playing russian roulette with their lives, whether they or you are aware of it or not. Remember, the problem with russian roulette is not that you have survived, but that you are playing it at all. Another example of sample-size error: Impact Trainings only uses the number of participants of the program to verify the success of it, not long-term, out-sourced, unbaised independant study. All of these companies work the same way, for such a study would compromise the model of internal control needed to simply operate (they also know that such studies would be a dismal black mark for the industry itself).

When I finally stopped looking only at the good and seeing the bad as good, got a grip, and saw the unholy harm the Impact Trainings was causing, I jumped ship as the full realization of the madness that is involved there hit me. I have never looked back. Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior, in my opinion, you may have ethical issues yourself. It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.

Ok... new guy here. Just trying to understand mkp. To offset the next question ("Why are you here?"), the reason is two friends recently got involved, invited (NOT pressured) me to attend and I am doing my research.

I must also say a heartfelt "[b:08c8a8b888]thank you[/b:08c8a8b888]" to those that have offered up their own painful situations and circumstances for our examination and scrutiny - I can see this has not been easy for you. I somehow believe that there must be some good that can be gained from these type of LGAT experiences without the sacrifice of integrity and soul, and without foregoing the loyalty of those closest to you. Which is why this last message most compels me to post.

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When I finally stopped looking only at the good...

How did you do that - stop looking? What caused you to stop? How did you realize you had been only been looking at good?

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When I finally stopped looking only at the good and seeing the bad as good...

As a whole, this sentence makes no sense. Pardon me, but wtf does it mean? If you saw good as good and bad as good, then everything is good. While it's self-deception and self-illusory perhaps, how does it create:

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...the unholy harm the Impact Trainings was causing

That's a very dramatic statement and I want to understand it better. What is/was the [b:08c8a8b888]"unholy harm"[/b:08c8a8b888]?

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Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior...

Against my will and knowledge it is wrong. But, is it still unethical if I understand "manipulation mentale" (as the French say), decide within my own mind the risk vs reward and then give myself permission to learn from these techniques?

Are you to say there is absolutely no value in any of this - that in all cases mkp is ultimately more harmful than beneficial, and that no good whatsoever can come out of it?

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It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.

Poignant... heartfelt... irrelevant.

Thanks for any/all responses

(Before anybody chastises me and says [i:08c8a8b888]go read the past 34 pages of posts before you dare ask inane questions[/i:08c8a8b888], I [b:08c8a8b888]have[/b:08c8a8b888] read the past 34 pages of posts and [b:08c8a8b888]have[/b:08c8a8b888] seen much to question from both "sides", [b:08c8a8b888]have[/b:08c8a8b888] much cause for concern and [b:08c8a8b888]feel deeply[/b:08c8a8b888] for those who feel they have been harmed by mkp)

After reading all those pages with excerpts from the MKP manual, links to research about LGATs and coercive persuasion, why would you want to take the risk of attending MKP?

Is this to please your friends?

There are many less risky and safer choices regarding self-improvement, such as continuing education at a community college or university, counseling with a licensed professional or support groups that meet through community and/or social services etc.

Why would you consider MKP, which is essentially group therapy run by people that are not licensed professionals with meaningful accountability to a licensing board etc.?

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cccoveguy

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When I finally stopped looking only at the good...

How did you do that - stop looking? What caused you to stop? How did you realize you had been only been looking at good?

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When I finally stopped looking only at the good and seeing the bad as good...

As a whole, this sentence makes no sense. Pardon me, but wtf does it mean? If you saw good as good and bad as good, then everything is good. While it's self-deception and self-illusory perhaps, how does it create:

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...the unholy harm the Impact Trainings was causing

That's a very dramatic statement and I want to understand it better. What is/was the [b:390fdeefee]"unholy harm"[/b:390fdeefee]?

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Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior...

Against my will and knowledge it is wrong. But, is it still unethical if I understand "manipulation mentale" (as the French say), decide within my own mind the risk vs reward and then give myself permission to learn from these techniques? Are you to say there is absolutely no value in any of this - that in all cases mkp is ultimately more harmful than beneficial, and that no good whatsoever can come out of it?

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It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.

Poignant... heartfelt... irrelevant.Thanks for any/all responses

I'll respond to your reply. Perhaps it was my error in not giving any of my background within the body of my reply on this board. I just assumed if you had questions about me you would go look at my other posts. I apologize. You were correct in your assessment of my statement that it was meant to convey that I was under a “self-deceptive and self-illusory” state of mind when I was helping to run the Impact Trainings. In essence, you answered your own “wtf” question. From my own experience and from my research of other similar programs, there seems to be a reoccurring theme within these types of organizations. This is not only a view held by those in charge, but it is also reinforced into the trainees. It is that the program in question has the answer not only for your problems, but they have access to a hidden window that sees into the sickness that exists in the minds of all the people in this world, and only they have access to this window. So not only can they help you solve all of your problems, but it is also your moral duty to join them in the crusade to heal the world “one heart at a time” or using some other bullshit slogan. So it gives people the purpose they have always been "searching and yearning for". The end result fo this purpose is self-feeding and only really is meant to make sure trainees enroll others into the program, for its is the program itself that is healing the world. It is this “golden egg” perspective that lends itself to the idea that the program “can do no wrong”, and that any kind of dysfunction expressed or experienced by anyone who takes the training(s) is entirely accountable and is at fault for it. Essentially the training is non-culpable, and untouchable in the eyes of those who run it. That makes them dangerous, for they adhere to an ethic of “the ends justify the means”, and turn a blind eye to all of the damage, pain, and dysfunction they are directly and indirectly responsible for. Thusly, the self-delusion/illusory conditioning. As far as the “unholy harm” statement, I am merely referring to all of the numerous posts concerning the damage these programs cause, and my own testimony concerning a training I once [i:390fdeefee]helped train[/i:390fdeefee]. (feel free to look at my other posts) As far as how I stopped looking at only the good? Well, I simply started to see that most of the trainees lives never got better (the majority of them actually got worse) and I stopped blaming the trainees and saw Impacts (and my) culpability for what it truly was.
As far as your questioning of the relevancy of my reply, I will consider it a valid criticism when you contribute something of worth on this message board other than expressing that a willingness to go and have your head examined by unlicensed, untrained, undereducated and unaccredited “professionals” is perfectly rational and reasonable behavior.

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exImpact

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Skeptic_X
It seems like people only want to hear the bad side and nothing else.

This is a common [i:e2745de29a]apologetic[/i:e2745de29a] argument expressed by those who are seeking to defend a position who are not able to effectively do so.

How many times do I need to post that I am not trying to defend the MKP as a whole. I am just trying to put a different way of thinking out there. It's true that only negative stories of MKP are received on here with any kindness, any story remotely positive is attacked and down played. It appears that very few are unbiased.

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It is so easy to bash nay-sayers for saying nay and accuse them of being negative nellies (shame on them) while you imply moral superiority in walking the high road because you are looking at the good. Looking at the bad does not logically necessarily exclude the good, nor does giving the bad more credible weight warrent any critisism when there is so much evidence to support the weight.

I have not, in any way, implied that I am morally superior to anyone here. All I tried to point out is that there is a LOT of gray in between. This is not a strictly good vs. bad subject.

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The main weakness of your claim is due to the diminutive sample size you are using to support it (this is what philosophers and logicians call "commiting a logical fallacy"). You may claim you are not down playing the negative, but believe me, when you say you have a sample size of only 4 men who have had a positive experience with this group to support your position, to this community you are simply stating there are 4 people out of who have (temporarily at least) survived playing russian roulette with their lives, whether they or you are aware of it or not.

I never claimed to be speaking for an entire group, you are making it appear that I did, but I did not. I clearly stated that it was all my OPINION based on 4 people's experiences. It can also be said that the negative opinions are also a very small group (so far) so that is also not a good sample size.

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Go study mental conditioning and brainwashing techniques. If you can understand them, and are able to come back and still think employing them is ethical behavior, in my opinion, you may have ethical issues yourself.

It's nice to see that you have resorted to questioning my ethics, it is obvious to me that you did not fully read everything that I said previously. I was very clear that I AM NOT a supporter or a member of this or ANY group. All I did was offer up another story with another view point. I even clearly stated that in some cases I was "playing devil's advocate." (I am going to assume that you are familiar with that phrase.) I even used words like "theorized" I have not once claimed to know what is best for all.

So you think that just because it isn't good for all that it can't be good for some? I also posted that I DO NOT agree with the secretiveness of this group. I do think that they should be up front with perspective members and give them an exact list of what they will go through during a weekend. Therefor; In the end it is an educated, personal, individual choice.

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It is not necessary to go to these programs in order to be screwed up.

I have no clue what you mean by this.


Here is what I find interesting...
If you would have taken the time to accurately read and understand what I wrote you would have seen that I am inherently and personally against any type of religion/group/cult (whatever you want to call it.) That is why I made it a point to say that I am Atheist. I also stated that I am not a supporter of this particular group, I am only a supporter of my husband and family and friends. Basically I am on your side, but no one bothered to see that point. All that happened was people decided to rip my statements apart and ridicule me. As a group you are not going to gain support that way. It makes you appear as extreme as the groups that you oppose. In the future I think you would gain more support and sympathy if you did not immediately dismiss someone as a person with "ethical issues."
The guy that asked for verifiable proof of claims, he is apparently someone who wants to learn more, but in the end he was talked down to and made to feel lazy or dumb. That is an example of what I stated earlier. He is someone that could have potentially listened to you or been persuaded by you.

I think he is right to ask. I too would be more then interested in learning about any DOCUMENTED or legal cases in regards to this or any similar group. I am not saying that anyone here lied about anything that happened. Basically I am asked to trust what others have said here, but how do I really know what is true and what is not? How do I know that someone here isn't just a bored 19 year old who likes to instigate? Heck, how do you know I'm not?

I do appreciate all the questions and polite criticisms.

What2do, I really do appreciate what you said in your first post to me, and I hope that you read the apology I posted to you. I feel most for you and your situation. I hope that whatever you are going through that you come out of it happier and unscathed.

I apologize if my opinions seem to be attacking your own. This subject does tend to rile me up. I want you to know Skeptic_X that no matter what I may say, how much I disagree; I still value your opinion as much as anyone else’s, including my own. Opinions are just a point of view, and it is impossible to escape bias of any kind in them. I don't take it personal when someone disagrees with me. Sometimes I forget that some people take disagreement to be ridicule. I did thoroughly read your entire post, and notwithstanding, gave my conclusions regarding it. I am not an Atheist, and I agree with your position against harmful organizations. However it doesn't seem logical that you would post in this forum just to support your family and friends without supporting the organization they belong to. This message board [i:38318b2941]is[/i:38318b2941] geared toward discussing such groups. Also, I think it is the cowing side effect of mental conditioning that makes victims reluctant to speak, accounting for the small sample size.
Regardless of all this claptrap, it is my [i:38318b2941]sincere[/i:38318b2941] hope that these men in your life (and you) survive unscathed by their experiences with this group.

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exImpact
I apologize if my opinions seem to be attacking your own. This subject does tend to rile me up. I want you to know Skeptic_X that no matter what I may say, how much I disagree; I still value your opinion as much as anyone else’s, including my own. Opinions are just a point of view, and it is impossible to escape bias of any kind in them. I don't take it personal when someone disagrees with me. Sometimes I forget that some people take disagreement to be ridicule. I did thoroughly read your entire post, and notwithstanding, gave my conclusions regarding it. I am not an Atheist, and I agree with your position against harmful organizations. However it doesn't seem logical that you would post in this forum just to support your family and friends without supporting the organization they belong to. This message board [i:6fb75d6457]is[/i:6fb75d6457] geared toward discussing such groups. Also, I think it is the cowing side effect of mental conditioning that makes victims reluctant to speak, accounting for the small sample size.
Regardless of all this claptrap, it is my [i:6fb75d6457]sincere[/i:6fb75d6457] hope that these men in your life (and you) survive unscathed by their experiences with this group.

I appreciate it! Topics like this are always touchy for one or more of the people discussing it. I did not take it personal that you disagreed with me, only that my ethics where questioned and that it was implied that I was simple or unable to understand.

I can see how it may be hard to understand how I would support their decision but not support the group. They have not suffered from their experience, and what I have seen is positive (with these men only.) I can fully understand how someone else may not get the same experience, and it appears that each local group operates differently in some respects. What works for one will not always work for another. I am unsure of why I decided to post here in the first place. Maybe it was because I felt that by extension my husband was being accused of being "brainwashed" when I know that he was not. But all that is neither here nor there and is now irrelevant to the conversation.

I will say that reading this and other threads on this website have made me glad that my husband has decided not to attend the weekly meetings. It's good that people that want to go on a weekend are able to read some of these stories and get a better sense of what they are in for.

In the end I do think that groups like this are unnecessary, but then again who am I to say that others don't need it?

Here is something that I have been thinking about, and it is only a simple question and I am not trying to bait anyone, I just would like to know...
Most "cults" are set up in order to benefit the "leader" and not the followers. The leader at the top gets all the money, power, glory, and in some cases sex, that he or she wants. The purpose of the group is to satisfy the top people. Who or what benefits from the MKP? What do you think is their motive and true reason behind this group? What is it that you think they are trying to accomplish? Who or what gains from any of this? (I am asking for your, or anyone's, sincere answer.)

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Skeptic_X
Here is something that I have been thinking about, and it is only a simple question and I am not trying to bait anyone, I just would like to know...
Most "cults" are set up in order to benefit the "leader" and not the followers. The leader at the top gets all the money, power, glory, and in some cases sex, that he or she wants. The purpose of the group is to satisfy the top people. Who or what benefits from the MKP? What do you think is their motive and true reason behind this group? What is it that you think they are trying to accomplish? Who or what gains from any of this? (I am asking for your, or anyone's, sincere answer.)

My experiences and opinions on this subject are limited to the Impact Trainings and their cult leader, Hans Berger. I do know that he has made his personal motivations the motivations of those that surround him and those who continue in the training do likewise to a lesser degree. There tends to be enough money to go around (the lions share went to the Bergers), but money is usually a secondary (or lower) priority for underlings in cult/religious groups. It is the relationships with the charismatic people and the feeling that you are at the top of the moral food chain that fuels fanaticism. Again, I speak with experience.

Skeptic_x:

If you go back on the thread there is some discussion about the money and salaries within MKP.

People are paying for MKP and there are financial benefits and honor accorded to the creator/founder.

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I just assumed if you had questions about me you would go look at my other posts. I apologize.

No need to apologize - au contraire! There is a LOT of information in all these posts and it's hard to remember who said what sometimes.

Hmm... in these snippets of your earlier response post:

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... the program in question has the answer not only for your problems, but they have access to a hidden window that sees into the sickness that exists in the minds of all the people in this world...
...it is also your moral duty to join them in the crusade...
...it gives people the purpose they have always been "searching and yearning for"...

I think you have revealed more truth about why this type of manipulation is deceitful than I have seen expressed anywhere else yet to date. Or, maybe it's just that they have a particular resonance for me - whatever... it set off my #1 [b:afaba2d0cf]BS Recognition Test[/b:afaba2d0cf]: [i:afaba2d0cf]"I and only I have the answer"[/i:afaba2d0cf]

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I simply started to see that most of the trainees lives never got better (the majority of them actually got worse)

Okay! Now this type of "longitudunal" data is very important as it reveals a lot about the whole... With a lot of the posts I've seen here, I see very personal pain and unique experiences and I'm trying to form an opinion of the bigger picture... the "net-net" so to speak. I believe it is not uncommon that there often has to be some sort of price paid for progress. I do not mean to invalidate or diminish anyone's pain in any way, but if I may make a loose analogy: If you hit your thumb with a hammer, it is then very hard to realistically describe the whole hand - the aching thumb will force itself to the forefront. I'm trying to get perspective on the other nine fingers, so to speak. You provided that. Thank you.

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As far as your questioning of the relevancy of my reply

LOL! A little sensitive, are we? It was a blanket sort of statement that I did not feel had any relevance. That's all.

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I will consider it a valid criticism when you contribute something of worth on this message board

Gee... sounds like more dogma. Invalidating someone else's experience. So, I'll try to submit all my opinions to the "worthy filter" first.

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...other than expressing that a willingness to go and have your head examined by unlicensed, untrained, undereducated and unaccredited “professionals” is perfectly rational and reasonable behavior.

You disagree, and I'm sure others will also, but if I enter into this situation with a pre-established sense of self, complete awareness of the techniques and a realization of the pitfalls, what's wrong with that? Yup, yup, I've *been* in therapy for the majority of the past 25 years, and yup, yup, I could blame my therapists as inadequate and yup, yup, I could spend the next 25 years hoping I find one that helps. OR, I could take a few risks, try something "different" on for size, and see if it helps. Spoken to the universe at large, and to no particular person: "Shake me up, baby! Show me see something [b:afaba2d0cf]NEW[/b:afaba2d0cf]"

I am just trying to determine if there is NOTHING good or productive or helpful about the MKP training. Not the organization, the proselytization techniques, the deceit and trickery to get people to participate (because I am now pretty much fully informed!). There is testimony from others about positive change in their lives and everyone else so far is in a really big hurry to condemn them and their experience. Just trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and your posts have been very illuminating.