cancelled post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2008 04:55AM by longtimer60.

This may be accurate. So the next question is who now serves as Mike's primary mentor? Who's teaching does he sit under? Knowing who teaches the teacher will give you much insight.

Scripture is clear that you become like the teacher who teaches you or the master who commands you. I wonder who currently influences Mike's thinking and understanding of scripture, God, and church structure?

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LearningPoint
I could be wrong about this, but I believe Mike and Tony HAVE cut ties with one another on some level if not completely. (Does anyone still in touch at TP know whether this is the case or not?)

The problem is that Mike is now capable of his very own version of this model he's been exposed to--a morphed but essentially the same ego-driven, "Master and Commander" of the fastest growing church in Marysville, but with a more cheery demeanor than Tony's to make it more palatable and less likely to be detected by those who don't understand what's going on. Unfortunately for many people, this is their first and only exposure to a church. It feels normal to them and another church probably would feel lack-luster--sort of like if you were raised on a diet of McDonalds and junk food and had to suddenly switch to vegetables, fish and chicken, and other good-for-you foods. It would seem blah at first.

This is what makes my heart sink. What's going to happen to these people when the house of cards falls down? Please, let's all remember to pray for them!!

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LearningPoint
I could be wrong about this, but I believe Mike and Tony HAVE cut ties with one another on some level if not completely. (Does anyone still in touch at TP know whether this is the case or not?)

The problem is that Mike is now capable of his very own version of this model he's been exposed to--a morphed but essentially the same ego-driven, "Master and Commander" of the fastest growing church in Marysville, but with a more cheery demeanor than Tony's to make it more palatable and less likely to be detected by those who don't understand what's going on. Unfortunately for many people, this is their first and only exposure to a church. It feels normal to them and another church probably would feel lack-luster--sort of like if you were raised on a diet of McDonalds and junk food and had to suddenly switch to vegetables, fish and chicken, and other good-for-you foods. It would seem blah at first.

This is what makes my heart sink. What's going to happen to these people when the house of cards falls down? Please, let's all remember to pray for them!!

Bottom line, we do need to be in prayer.

Comments below.

I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them.[/quote]

Dear Northwest,

Thank you for your question.

I submitted to you and others reading in this forum scriptures where Jesus, in my view, clearly condemned the current practice.

You ask what is their motive and how did they arrive at the decision they are at now and are people allowed to disagree?

The last two questions you are in the best position to find out because you attend the church. However I would love to hear from others attending to add any insight they have.

Unfortunately I believe there is a pattern developing. The pattern is to twist scripture in the direction that is most beneficial to the one twisting. Knowing how intelligent Mike is I don't believe he would violate a clear teaching of Jesus except that ulterior motives are clouding his judgement.

I am reluctant to write this but I believe that this practice was driven by the desire to get more offerings. It is a shame because TP was a very giving church.

I saw how it worked at Pastor David Luster's church in Mt. Vernon. I appeal to you Pastor David. You are a talented, gifted, godly young man. Please renounce this. God will provide for you. You are beginning a church with a great core of dedicated people, I believe in a matter of years your church will be larger then TP. Please don't begin with a foundation so at odds with the heart of Christ.

In coming entries I would like to confirm why I think the twisting of scripture is a pattern by writing about a couple of other odd teachings of TP. In each case there appears to be a lack of Biblical support but there is not lack of benefit from the teaching by the one teaching it.

One last note. I was a pastor at one time. In my training we were continuously admonished about the need to "rightly divide the word" that we were to be very careful in what we said was the authoritative word as opposed to ours. I would argue pastors don't have to be scholars, they don't have to know Greek and Hebrew and have a broad knowledge of the history of theology. But if they don't they shouldn't enter into the arena of creating theology. That we who teach should have great reverence and not usurp power that does not belong to us.

M&M has touched on something that has haunted me as a former church attendee and SOMA student: methods of Bible interpretation at TP. This includes regular formulation of "unique" or "original" doctrines or teachings extrapolated from a Bible story, a biblical characters experience(s), or isolated scripture(s) that support an idea.

I believe traditional Bible colleges (which are on some level by those who promote SOMA) teach as one of their standard freshman or sophomore courses a class called "hermenutics"--that is, instruction in principles of sound biblical interpretation. M&M will be familiar with this foundational course, I'm sure.

One of the first principles of hermenutics is to ALWAYS use clear scripture to interpret unclear scripture (never the other way around). Another principle is never to isolate text, but to read the text around a passage so as not lift scripture out of its context, and also to read the passage in light of the rest of Scripture, so as not to miss the broader contest of the "full counsel of God." Yet another principle is something M&M has already pointed out, I believe, SCRIPTURE DOESN'T CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE.

"Proof texting" is a common (and dangrous) hermeneutical error made by pastors, Bible teachers, and Bible students alike. Proof texting entails coming at scripture with a preconceived idea and searching scripture for passages that seem to support that idea, rather than looking at all scripture on that topic and getting a full view of the scriptural record/teaching on an issue or topic. It's especially dangerous when pastors formulate doctrines via proof texting and then teach them as biblical truth. Those who don't know the whole of scripture will have to take the pastor/teacher at face value; after all, he/she is using SCRIPTURE. Who can argue with that? See the problem?

Example (this is a HYPOTHETICAL example of how proof texting works): Let's say that TP leadership taught from Scripture about worshiping in Spirit and in truth, using Jesus' own words to make it seem like this new method of giving is really what God wants from His children as an act of worship. But all the while, this supposedly biblical teaching overlooks or ignores Jesus' words about giving as a private matter and not giving to be seen my men (as clearly pointed out by M&Ms original posting on the topic).

SOMA doesn't teach principles of sound interpretation. I wonder why they don't? Could it be that if they did, it would put a discernment tool in the students' hands that would put leadership in a position of having to apply the principles to their own teaching? Is that, perhaps, too restrictive for them? Would they then feel too constrained by the written Word of God and not be able to follow the "spirit's impulses"?

I mean that just the way it sounds. No apologies.

Has anyone seen the youtube videos:


Turingpoint satire
#1, #2, #3 and #4.

(#3 is probaby is best to watch to get a feel for what they are about)


These were made by an atheist based off the video blogs from pastor mike.

also someone else made a video which can be found by google searching: marysville washington cult.


I am interested in hearing what everyone thought about them.

It was a little depressing to think that this is how our church comes across to nonchristians. I would hate to go to heaven and find out that my actions were causing people to hate God. I am hoping that both RCl and TP are able to clear there name and or repent and change.

I am wondering if anyone from Turning Point and or SOMA Northwest is familiar with, as a result of teachings in either of these settings, the concept of Honoring Elders/Pastors/Apostles? If so would you care to describe this concept, as it is taught, to those of us on the forum.


If you are uncertain about posting your comments here in the main forum please feel free to send them to me via PM.


TPR

I have seen these videos.

I think the maker is enjoying making fun of TP in order to promote his own cause of atheism. I would guess the makers view of TP is a minority view. No doubt there are many in your community who have a positive view of TP.

I have yet to see anyone on this forum call Turning Point Church World Outreach Center a cult. Some have expressed concerns about the teachings at TPCWOC and others have questions regarding the relationship with Tony Cunningham and his influence. But I do not recall anyone calling them a cult. Some of their practices may very well be destructive, though this remains to be seen.

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Northwest
Has anyone seen the youtube videos:


Turingpoint satire
#1, #2, #3 and #4.

(#3 is probaby is best to watch to get a feel for what they are about)


These were made by an atheist based off the video blogs from pastor mike.

also someone else made a video which can be found by google searching: marysville washington cult.


I am interested in hearing what everyone thought about them.

It was a little depressing to think that this is how our church comes across to nonchristians. I would hate to go to heaven and find out that my actions were causing people to hate God. I am hoping that both RCl and TP are able to clear there name and or repent and change.

I've looked at a couple of the "spoofs" on TPWOC. It' makes me sad because this guy is missing the message of the gospel because the message of Turning Point and Pastor Mike is too big, eclipsing the simple and beautiful gospel.

I think we almost always get in the way when we try to create a big, "effective" machine for doing God's work. (This guy would probably like Pastor Mike in a one-on-one meeting in a nonchurch context.) All of the hype and spiritual showmanship may seem like a good witnessing tool to the insiders at TPWOC, but it's not. People see through it. They can sense when something is genuine and when it's not, when it's geared for making the insiders feel good about themselves, rather than for really being simple salt and light to benefit a hurting, dark world.

It seems throughout scripture (both testaments) that God generally avoids using humanly logical methods for getting things done. (Didn't Jesus' followers get a little frustrated with Him for this tendency: "When are you ushering in the kingdom, Jesus? When will you really get it done?" is what they asked Him, in essence.) Why do we, then, try to set up "power ministry" to take over a city for God?...Is it to make a name for ourselves? To impress God? To say we got it done when no one else did or would? Why? If it's for the gospel's sake, why is the gospel so overshadowed by the personages of leadership at TP and their ministries?

I beleive that the church, in general, too often gets in the way of true spiritual progress with our big programs, our big ideas, our own agendas. It happens in our lives on an individual level as well as in churches on a corporate level. Jesus gets lost in the shuffle. I know it seems, at first thought, that this isn't true, becasue, of course, there's worship, there are sermons, prayer meetings, discipleship meetings. But what about Jesus himself? Are you involved in the church because of Jesus, or because of the Villamors, your discipler, a ministry opportunity, SOMA, etc.? Could you be as content at another truly biblical church in the area? If not, why not? What makes church, church for you?

If your answer is not Jesus, your answer reveals a problem.

PS: Regarding the Parody Videos

I don't think this guy is trying to promote atheism as much as he is frustrated with self-righteous, self-focused Christians who only serve to strengthen his position by means of their irrelevant self-glorification. I think a lot of people--Christians and non-Christians alike--choke on this aberrance within Christendom.