Installment 1: Things I’ve Learned from My Experience at Turning Point

I used to attend Turning Point and was considering adding my story to this thread. After thinking awhile, I realized that I would be “recognized” (as I’m sure M&M has been by many). I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all, and I’m not fearful of becoming known. But what I hope to dialogue about would likely be better served by not getting myself in the way, in case someone might miss the content of the message because of the perceived character of the messenger.

(I still may wind up telling my story, at some point, just not right now.)

Concern #1: What’s the Focus?

First things first. I think the true focal point at Turning Point (at least at the time of my departure) had gotten significantly off base.

When a ministry is growing and programs are expanding and being created at a fast pace (as they have been at TPWOC) I think it’s important to keep coming back to questions like What am I here for? For what purpose and to what end? Am I here to defend or promote a position? A person? A ministry? If so. What position? What person? What ministry? If our answer to these questions is ANYONE or ANYTHING other than the person of Jesus Christ and His Gospel, we’re in error and on dangerous ground.

The reality is that only Jesus Christ never fails; only He is worthy of our focus and of being unquestioningly followed. Even the esteemed (might I even accurately say revered?) Turning Point leaders are fallible and fault-riddled. I am, you are, Pastor Mike is. So even the best Christians and their ministries are not worthy things for us to fix our eyes on; again, only Jesus is worthy of this kind of devotion from us.

My time at Turning Point also helped me see that the more “spiritual-seeming” a person is, the more cautious I need to become regarding the temptation I might have to look to them rather than to Christ for my cues. Not that people cannot be examples and encouragers to us in our faith, but they must NEVER become to us our lords, “masters and commanders,” or ones to whom we look to “guide us into all truth.” These places in our lives must be reserved for GOD ALONE.

Beginning here and then moving through a number of Turning Point-related issues/topics, I hope to generate some dialogue, especially with anyone still at Turning Point, in a succession of installments on this thread. My goal is not to stop others from attending there but, rather, to encourage attendees not to fall into the pitfalls I did. The Bible tells us to stay alert, to watch and pray, and not to follow the various winds of doctrines people like to come up with and teach as "new revelation." Rather, we are to stay established in the CLEAR teaching of the Word. That’s, bottom line, what I will advocate in each subsequent discussion.

The next installment will look at what the Bible says qualifies as “good fruit” in a ministry. (Hint: The biblical definition of good fruit does not include prophecy, miracles, inspired worship, nor demonic deliverance.)

Installment 2 coming soon…

LearningPoint,
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for taking time to formulate your thoughts and questions. You ask some thought provoking questions. I do hope that those who read will honestly consider and seek out answers.

TPR

Learning Point
thanks for joining this forum

I have witnessed leadership here at RLc in Sacramento use this excuse that none of us are able to be considered rightious. You said it "Turning Point leaders are fallible and fault-riddled. I am, you are, Pastor Mike is. So even the best Christians and their ministries are not worthy things for us to fix our eyes on; again, only Jesus is worthy of this kind of devotion from us." but here is there folly, they say this out of one side of there mouth and use that as an excuse to keep on doing the the false teachings or they set themselves up to deny any conversation or dilouge. Tony will not meet with any one who may opose him and his teachings.
my focuse is to see TPC renounce Tonys teachings his Soul Ties and admit that they have embraced the teachings of a False Apostle

Quote
LearningPoint
Installment 1: Things I’ve Learned from My Experience at Turning Point



Concern #1: What’s the Focus?

First things first. I think the true focal point at Turning Point (at least at the time of my departure) had gotten significantly off base.

...
Not that people cannot be examples and encouragers to us in our faith, but they must NEVER become to us our lords, “masters and commanders,” or ones to whom we look to “guide us into all truth.” These places in our lives must be reserved for GOD ALONE.

LearningPoint: In your opinion, what did you see the focus of Turning Point Community Church in Marysville WA as being if not Christ?

Secondly: In what ways, if any, did you see leaders at Turning Point Church World Outreach Center becoming "lords, Masters and Commanders, (i think I have seen this M & C reference in some of the comments of those attending Radiant Life Church) or "guides to all that is true"?

Thanks,

TPR

I guess if you were looking for me to identify a single focus or source of directing focus, it would be Mike and Cyndi, but I believe the focus moves around from thing to thing. Whatever the new exciting teaching or ministry or church plant or mission trip or whatever Mike puts before the congregation.

Jesus, it seems, is merely an ornament--His name is mentioned and lauded, His Word is the source of the doctrines that get concocted, His name is in the worship songs--to validate what is going on, but He is not the true focal point. There is too much spiritual showmanship, grasping for the attention of leadership, false humility, double-standards (one standard for me, another for you), etc., stuff going on for Jesus to truly be the center of it all.

There is a great deal of effort put forth in attempts to emulate what people THINK a Jesus-focused life looks like, but I've seen too many "real deals" in my lifetime before attending Turning Point. Over time this is the main indicator of self-focus by leadership that became abundantly evident: there is the hallmark of true humility missing in almost everything--there is continual boasting in ministry successes (disguised as praise reports), congratulating and flattering those who serve (disguised as encouragement), etc.,

To further answer your questions:

Mike believes in an authoritarian church structure, and for him the movie Master and Commander is a model of healthy church heirarchy/structure, as I understand it. (This is one of the topics I hope to address in a future "installment."

Mike and leadership, as well as disciplers who closely adhere to and propagate their teaching (i.e., many of the disciplers directly under their teaching) are looked to as ones to lead into all truth. What I mean by that, is I have seen them usurp the role of Holy Spirit in a sense. Or perhaps it is more fair to say that there is not a concerted effort for them to "work themselves out of a job" by assuring those "under their authority" that they are capable of being led by God's Spirit without Mike and Cyndi's input. Part of this stems from not insisting that people read the Word and become THOROUGHLY familiar with it so that the Holy Spirit can lead them into all truth. There is a biblical illiteracy among the majority of the people. I saw young people wielding more ministry and leadership authority than their understanding of Scripture and their manturity level could bear. I saw people applying Scripture in ways that revealed a disturbing lack of understanding of the full counsel of God in His Word. I even listened to Mike in two sermons back to back misuse Scripture because of a lack of careful reading as well as a lack of knowing what he was talking about regarding an Old Testament sacrifice ritual. In the first instance (lack of careful reading), he realized his error and made a correction the following Sunday; but then he proceeded to make the misrepresentation of the purpose of a fellowship offering in the sermon that followed. He does not CAREFULLY handle the Word of truth. This ignorance of the Word and the focusing on "pet" scriptures that support "pet" doctrines is commonplace. The sad thing is that people like me and a few others who are well-grounded in the Word, were so caught up in the euphoria of Mike's contagious energy (and we did not want to believe it when we saw things begin to get off track) that we kept ignoring "red flags" the Holy Spirit was raising for us, thinking to ourselves, "No, we must be wrong; we're probably just being judgmental; what makes us think we know what's right?" etc.

Jesus told His disciples to WATCH AND PRAY, to be alert, and that He would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. For a short time, to my shame, I traded in these provisions of God that have served me so well my entire life long, and I foolishly set my eyes on a man who seemed to know how to follow God better than other people do. I started doubting myself instead of trusting my God.

I thank God for delivering me from this evil, and for using this experience to train me in detecting deception as well as in trusting Him completely.

May God save us all from any more such delusions as these and keep us by His Word and His Spirit until the Great Day we stand before Him.

Amen!

Thanks for the welcome, Braveheart. I wanted to send you a private message, but your message folder is maxed out. Could you let me know when you have some space. I saved what I wrote and will send it later if you'd like.

Glad to be aboard! :)

Installment 2: Things I’ve Learned from My Experience at Turning Point

Concern #2: Defending the ‘Fruit’ of a Ministry

Have you ever talked with someone about your church’s ministry and defended or promoted it by saying you were “seeing such good fruit”? If so, what did you mean by good fruit? What examples did you have in mind? Powerful worship? “Salvations?” Healings? Miracles? Demonic deliverances? Great teaching?

Consider, if you will, the following passage from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 7, NIV):

A Tree and Its Fruit
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

I don’t think we usually think much about these two passages being in conjunction with one other, but they are right there together in Jesus’ teaching. Why? Perhaps because He knew that we’d tend look at people’s ministry “success” as spiritual fruit, as the measure of a person’s or church’s spirituality.

So when I read this passage as I was sorting through my growing concerns about Turning Point, I began asking myself some questions. What should be the indicators of good fruit in a ministry? How about prophecy? Jesus said that isn’t what He’s looking for. How about miracles? Driving out demons? Nope. Scripture clearly reveals that these things can all be done in Jesus’ name but from within our own flesh-fueled motives. The New American Standard Bible translates the phrase “you evildoers” as “you who practice lawlessness,” a chilling description, I think, of the nature of this self-willed (rather than God-willed) kind of ministry. It all looks like shiny fruit, but it’s rotten in the middle.

To recap what I learned: A person can have an incredible resumé full of signs and wonders and still be bearer of bad fruit. So it’s not ministry magnitude or signs and wonders we should be using as a “measure of success” in our own lives or in the lives of ministers and their ministries. (Please don’t misunderstand: I’m not saying that the leaders at Turning Point are bearing bad fruit; I’m merely saying that we cannot point to what we see as successful ministry as “good fruit.” It’s simply not biblical to use that as a measure.)

What is the fruit Jesus is looking for, then, that will cause Him to say that He knows us as one of His own? Scripture speaks very plainly to this in Galatians 5:

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I realize now that this is the fruit that is truly God’s will. This is what pleases Him more than any work or ministry we might be involved in. This view of fruit is, perhaps, less glamorous than the view we often maintain of “spiritual fireworks” being where it’s at. I’ve begun to get the picture in my own life, though, that the real fruit of the Spirit (in contrast to signs and wonders and emotionally charged services and events) comes most often through behind-the-scenes character transformation with no one watching but Jesus. The point is, though, that He is watching and wanting us to seek Him, His fellowship, His Word, and His Spirit rather than recognition, a name, a position, or a spiritual reputation among men.

And I’m also convinced that the true progress of our fruit’s development is generally most evident when we look at our relationships at home—not our relationships with fellow TPWOCers or with TPWOC leadership—but with our own parents, spouses, children, siblings. Does our patience shine yet there? Our kindness, goodness, and gentleness? Do we love them by serving them without pretension, pride, a second agenda, or trying to prove our “level” of spirituality to them, to ourselves, or to our leaders?

If you have time and don’t mind doing so, read that passage in Galatians again. This is what real fruit is. This is what Jesus will look for on our day of reckoning. It’s of utmost importance because this is how He will recognize us as His own. Who cares if anyone else ever recognizes us as “fruitful” or not? As long as Jesus does.

OK, so I hope we can agree that, according to God’s Word, “ministry success” is not validation of the presence of “good fruit.” If we can agree on that, might we stop holding up “salvations” and numbers and miracles and prophecies and emotionally charged worship services as proof that Turning Point (or any church) is “on the right track” or “in the will of God” or “Spirit filled” (i.e., bearing good fruit)?

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control are THE proof.

In the next installment, I’d like to talk about authority and leadership and highlight a couple of passages that might help fill out and clarify the scriptural record on that topic? Anyway, these scriptures helped me. Maybe they’ll be helpful to you, too.

Installment #3 coming soon…

Dear Learning Point, thanks for joining in. Your perspective is really helpful.

I would like to address this primarily to all the elders at TP. Others please feel free to read and correct me if I am mistaken in any particular.

This is directed to not just Mike and Cyndi but to all the elders and pastors. Someone mentioned to me the other day the new practice of taking offerings at TP. I would like you to consider ending it.

Before going on I want to begin by expressing gratitude for how TP used to collect offerings. When I first came there they had boxes secured to the wall in which you could discreetly give offerings without anyone knowing. I was used to the traditional way of doing it but had read about how George Muellar did it and was so excited that TP was following in his footsteps.

Sometime after I left TP one of my sons came home and said they doing something different. After the sermon they were having an after sermon sermon on giving and then people were coming forward as worship music played in front of the church and give their offering in a bucket or plate.

They still had the places in back to give but the exhortation was that they needed to make their giving a form of worship and so they encouraged everyone to do this.

I ask your to please consider this carefully.

According to Hebrews 13:17 you must rule as those who will give account. The Nuremberg defense won't work. If you are an elder then you are responsible. You cannot argue I was just following orders.

In Matthew 6:1-3 Jesus talks about not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing.

He also admonishes about not giving to be seen by men.

In Mark 7:11 he warns the teachers that they have replaced the words of God with the traditions of men.

Please consider, you have nullified clear teaching for a "spiritual" experience that you know isn't true. You know that if someone gives on line it can be as absolutely spiritual as giving in a service or in a box or in front of the whole church. You also know because Jesus said it that we are all tempted to do things to be seen of men. I think you also know that people are more apt to give if there is a false "reward" given. In other words, in your hearts are you willing to acknowledge that the real reason for having the "giving show" is to play upon people's base desires and not their spiritual desire to be rewarded by God?

Abraham Lincoln once addressed congress and said: "There is no escaping history...."

Everyone of you elders must weigh in your hearts your responsibility and say is this truly of God or are we making a tradition supercede the clear teaching of scripture?

Please let us know if and when you repent and end this practice. I think it would be a great blessing to everyone. I hope acknowledging this clear undeniable false practice will lead you to consider how did we fall for this? How could we have allowed ourselves to disregard the words of Jesus? Are there other things?

Thanks

Whew, M&M!

Thank you for standing up for truth, for the sake of Christ and the sake of those who are vulnerable and do not yet know better.

And I truly hope leadership will take time to begin examining other teachings, self-made doctrines, and practices in light of what you wrote:

"Please consider, you have nullified clear teaching for a "spiritual" experience. . . . I hope acknowledging this clear undeniable false practice will lead you to consider how did we fall for this? How could we have allowed ourselves to disregard the words of Jesus? Are there other things?"

May true humility help leadership--help us all--do what's right, even if it means admitting before the whole world that we've been wrong.

Quote
LearningPoint
I guess if you were looking for me to identify a single focus or source of directing focus, it would be Mike and Cyndi, but I believe the focus moves around from thing to thing. Whatever the new exciting teaching or ministry or church plant or mission trip or whatever Mike puts before the congregation.

Jesus, it seems, is merely an ornament--His name is mentioned and lauded, His Word is the source of the doctrines that get concocted, His name is in the worship songs--to validate what is going on, but He is not the true focal point. There is too much spiritual showmanship, grasping for the attention of leadership, false humility, double-standards (one standard for me, another for you), etc., stuff going on for Jesus to truly be the center of it all.

There is a great deal of effort put forth in attempts to emulate what people THINK a Jesus-focused life looks like, but I've seen too many "real deals" in my lifetime before attending Turning Point. Over time this is the main indicator of self-focus by leadership that became abundantly evident: there is the hallmark of true humility missing in almost everything--there is continual boasting in ministry successes (disguised as praise reports), congratulating and flattering those who serve (disguised as encouragement), etc.,

To further answer your questions:

Mike believes in an authoritarian church structure, and for him the movie Master and Commander is a model of healthy church heirarchy/structure, as I understand it. (This is one of the topics I hope to address in a future "installment."

Mike and leadership, as well as disciplers who closely adhere to and propagate their teaching (i.e., many of the disciplers directly under their teaching) are looked to as ones to lead into all truth. What I mean by that, is I have seen them usurp the role of Holy Spirit in a sense. Or perhaps it is more fair to say that there is not a concerted effort for them to "work themselves out of a job" by assuring those "under their authority" that they are capable of being led by God's Spirit without Mike and Cyndi's input. Part of this stems from not insisting that people read the Word and become THOROUGHLY familiar with it so that the Holy Spirit can lead them into all truth. There is a biblical illiteracy among the majority of the people. I saw young people wielding more ministry and leadership authority than their understanding of Scripture and their manturity level could bear. I saw people applying Scripture in ways that revealed a disturbing lack of understanding of the full counsel of God in His Word. I even listened to Mike in two sermons back to back misuse Scripture because of a lack of careful reading as well as a lack of knowing what he was talking about regarding an Old Testament sacrifice ritual. In the first instance (lack of careful reading), he realized his error and made a correction the following Sunday; but then he proceeded to make the misrepresentation of the purpose of a fellowship offering in the sermon that followed. He does not CAREFULLY handle the Word of truth. This ignorance of the Word and the focusing on "pet" scriptures that support "pet" doctrines is commonplace. The sad thing is that people like me and a few others who are well-grounded in the Word, were so caught up in the euphoria of Mike's contagious energy (and we did not want to believe it when we saw things begin to get off track) that we kept ignoring "red flags" the Holy Spirit was raising for us, thinking to ourselves, "No, we must be wrong; we're probably just being judgmental; what makes us think we know what's right?" etc.

Jesus told His disciples to WATCH AND PRAY, to be alert, and that He would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. For a short time, to my shame, I traded in these provisions of God that have served me so well my entire life long, and I foolishly set my eyes on a man who seemed to know how to follow God better than other people do. I started doubting myself instead of trusting my God.

I thank God for delivering me from this evil, and for using this experience to train me in detecting deception as well as in trusting Him completely.

May God save us all from any more such delusions as these and keep us by His Word and His Spirit until the Great Day we stand before Him.

Amen!

WAKE UP TURNING POINT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THIS IS THE RADIANT LIFE MODEL.