Dear LearningPoint, M&M, and TPR
I am really enjoy this dialogue!

I believe the folks from Radiant Life Sacramento and West Sacramento are also enjoying this dialogue and observations that you folks have witnessed in Marysville Washington at TPC. These abhorrent teaching have clearly come from the association and submission of Mike and Cyndi to Tony Cunningham and they are effecting your church body.
The similarities you are describing only mirror what has already been set into motion here in Sacramento by Tony Cunningham. The false teachings like an authoritarian church structure, Spiritual Covering , Covenant Relationships and Spiritual Parenting just to name a few.

LearningPoint you wrote it so eloquently:
“Jesus, it seems, is merely an ornament--His name is mentioned and lauded, His Word is the source of the doctrines that get concocted, His name is in the worship songs--to validate what is going on, but He is not the true focal point. There is too much spiritual showmanship, grasping for the attention of leadership, false humility, double-standards (one standard for me, another for you), etc.,” …..
....Mike and leadership, as well as disciplers who closely adhere to and propagate their teaching (i.e., many of the disciplers directly under their teaching) are looked to as ones to lead into all truth. What I mean by that, is I have seen them usurp the role of Holy Spirit in a sense. Or perhaps it is more fair to say that there is not a concerted effort for them to "work themselves out of a job" by assuring those "under their authority" that they are capable of being led by God's Spirit without Mike and Cyndi's input. Part of this stems from not insisting that people read the Word and become THOROUGHLY familiar with it so that the Holy Spirit can lead them into all truth. There is a biblical illiteracy among the majority of the people. I saw young people wielding more ministry and leadership authority than their understanding of Scripture and their maturity level could bear. I saw people applying Scripture in ways that revealed a disturbing lack of understanding of the full counsel of God in His Word. I even listened to Mike in two sermons back to back misuse Scripture because of a lack of careful reading as well as a lack of knowing what he was talking about regarding an Old Testament sacrifice ritual. In the first instance (lack of careful reading), he realized his error and made a correction the following Sunday; but then he proceeded to make the misrepresentation of the purpose of a fellowship offering in the sermon that followed. He does not CAREFULLY handle the Word of truth. This ignorance of the Word and the focusing on "pet" scriptures that support "pet" doctrines is commonplace. The sad thing is that people like me and a few others who are well-grounded in the Word, were so caught up in the euphoria of Mike's contagious energy (and we did not want to believe it when we saw things begin to get off track) that we kept ignoring "red flags" the Holy Spirit was raising for us, thinking to ourselves, "No, we must be wrong; we're probably just being judgmental; what makes us think we know what's right?" etc."

Unfortunately as Leaders here in Sacramento have come to the realization of the vast devastation, embracing Tony’s “Way of Life and False Teachings” has caused in so many families. Once they start questioning or renouncing Tony’s false doctrine, Tony is so quick to throws then under the bus. The slander and back stabbing that come out of Tony’s mouth is unbelievable regarding Pastor Brandon Miller, Elder Matt Warner, Elder and Pastor Ken Bollinger and Jesse Mancillas. These are all men who are devoted to the Faith in Jesus Christ.
I want to salute you guys for sticking in there for so long and being men of Godly integrity!
You have looked the devil in his eyes and have stood your ground. You have helped others see so clearly Tony’s folly.

My only hope is that the leadership at TPC can quickly cut the ties before Tony hurts any more of Gods sheep.

P.S.
I recently saw an add for an up coming documentary looking back at "Escaping Jones Town" interviewing some of the survivors.

What we need to produce is a documentary "Escape From Tony's Town"

It only shows me that Tony is stooping to the lowest lack of character, slandering somebody else to make himself look good.

Can we all say “insecure!!”

I was perusing around several church websites from around the country-some well known churches, some from churches that friends attend, others from churches I have been affiliated with-and something odd stood out. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed anything "odd" about the Turning Point Church World Outreach website appearance or even their youtube videos. Check it out and compare with whatever church websites you know and let me know if you notice anything unusual.

Thanks

TPR

Here is the official explanation of there offering practices taken from the turning point website (pasted below). The leadership felt like you are supposed to be worshiping or something while you give and decided to change how it was done.

why don't you pass an offering plate?
At Turning Point, we consider it an honor and an opportunity to give to the Lord, not a burden. We see giving to God as an act of worship that is most appropriately done in the context of worship. Therefore, we typically close services with a song of worship and invite the congregation at that time to come forward, pray over their offerings, and place them in the boxes on the front of the stage. For those who feel uncomfortable doing this, or who desire a bit more time to pray over or prepare their offerings, we also have offering boxes at the auditorium entrances and at the Info Table.

I also was very impressed the first time I saw the original method of tithing and thought that it must have taken a lot of faith to believe that people would still give money with out spending time in the service asking people to give. I don't really like the current method as much and feel like spending several minutes asking everyone to give isn't necessary.

I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe Mike and Tony HAVE cut ties with one another on some level if not completely. (Does anyone still in touch at TP know whether this is the case or not?)

The problem is that Mike is now capable of his very own version of this model he's been exposed to--a morphed but essentially the same ego-driven, "Master and Commander" of the fastest growing church in Marysville, but with a more cheery demeanor than Tony's to make it more palatable and less likely to be detected by those who don't understand what's going on. Unfortunately for many people, this is their first and only exposure to a church. It feels normal to them and another church probably would feel lack-luster--sort of like if you were raised on a diet of McDonalds and junk food and had to suddenly switch to vegetables, fish and chicken, and other good-for-you foods. It would seem blah at first.

This is what makes my heart sink. What's going to happen to these people when the house of cards falls down? Please, let's all remember to pray for them!!

I appreciate Northwest's comments.

"I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them."

I need to go to work in about 5 minutes and so I will respond as much as possible now.

I got to see in person the method of taking the offering up at the church in Mt. Vernon.

It seems so important to me to think about how important this was to Jesus. He emphasized it seems to me with great intensity the evil of the human temptation "to be seen of men".

He said the false teachers sought to be seen of men in
1. Prayer
2. Giving
3. Clothing and religious garb.

Personally I know the temptation to want to be seen by others to act out of wanting to have others think highly of me.

Shepherds owe it to the flock to avoid the things that play into this. This practice at its heart doesn't avoid this temptation but it in a highly religious and spiritual way plays into this temptation.

More later God willing.

What I found odd is that on every single web page at this site ( www.turningpointchurch.org ) you will find a picture of Mike. On EVERY single page. The one with the rainbow in the background is quite moving.

I dont see that on too many other church web sites. The subliminal or overt message could not be clearer. Or maybe this is just a fluke some might think. Or did Pastor Mike insist his web master put up more pictures of him?

I wonder what the bible has to say about humility, if anything, and I wonder if this is a clear example of humility for the followers to follow as Mike follows Christ.

Quote
TurningPointReject
I was perusing around several church websites from around the country-some well known churches, some from churches that friends attend, others from churches I have been affiliated with-and something odd stood out. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed anything "odd" about the Turning Point Church World Outreach website appearance or even their youtube videos. Check it out and compare with whatever church websites you know and let me know if you notice anything unusual.

Thanks

TPR

So if you give your offering at the boxes at the back of the church ( I remember when we placed our offering in the plastic bins on the way out of the school) you are somehow not worshiping with the same intensity and fervor as those who come forward and place their offering on the alter at the front of the church? Hmmmmm

Seems like Jesus spoke to his disciples about giving. Didn't he and his disciples watch the old widow and the pharisee give their offering? Seems like Jesus had some strong words for the manner in which the pharisee "worshiped" as he gave his offering.

Quote
Northwest
Here is the official explanation of there offering practices taken from the turning point website (pasted below). The leadership felt like you are supposed to be worshiping or something while you give and decided to change how it was done.

why don't you pass an offering plate?
At Turning Point, we consider it an honor and an opportunity to give to the Lord, not a burden. We see giving to God as an act of worship that is most appropriately done in the context of worship. Therefore, we typically close services with a song of worship and invite the congregation at that time to come forward, pray over their offerings, and place them in the boxes on the front of the stage. For those who feel uncomfortable doing this, or who desire a bit more time to pray over or prepare their offerings, we also have offering boxes at the auditorium entrances and at the Info Table.

I also was very impressed the first time I saw the original method of tithing and thought that it must have taken a lot of faith to believe that people would still give money with out spending time in the service asking people to give. I don't really like the current method as much and feel like spending several minutes asking everyone to give isn't necessary.

I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them.

So giving can only be done appropriately at worship time. Other wise its not true worship.

Hmmm seems like Jesus spoke about what True Worship is all about ...

So what about work...isnt work supposed to be an act of worship? Should we insist that people perform their work on the alter at the front of the church so they can do it "most appropriately in the context of worship"?

What is worship? What is the "appropriate context of worship"? Is this true worship or is it something else?

Quote
Northwest
Here is the official explanation of there offering practices taken from the turning point website (pasted below). The leadership felt like you are supposed to be worshiping or something while you give and decided to change how it was done.

why don't you pass an offering plate?
At Turning Point, we consider it an honor and an opportunity to give to the Lord, not a burden. We see giving to God as an act of worship that is most appropriately done in the context of worship. Therefore, we typically close services with a song of worship and invite the congregation at that time to come forward, pray over their offerings, and place them in the boxes on the front of the stage. For those who feel uncomfortable doing this, or who desire a bit more time to pray over or prepare their offerings, we also have offering boxes at the auditorium entrances and at the Info Table.

I also was very impressed the first time I saw the original method of tithing and thought that it must have taken a lot of faith to believe that people would still give money with out spending time in the service asking people to give. I don't really like the current method as much and feel like spending several minutes asking everyone to give isn't necessary.

I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them.

Well for me the red lights keep going off every time I hear somebody refer to Mike as being an Apostle or his wife as being the Prophetess. These people are simply following Tony’s false teachings. Whether they have distanced themselves from Tony or backed off from being so enamored with Tony, until they publicly renounce all of Tony’s teachings and renounce the demonic soul ties and covenants they have made with Tony there will remain a demonic strong hold over them. Just the simple fact of knowing that they have made these covenants with Tony disqualifies Mike from being an Apostle and Cyndi from being a Prophetess of God.

However they could be an Apostle and Prophetess for the demonic realm.

So can Mike and Cyndi come onto this forum and shed some light into the relationship that they currently have with Tony? This dialogue has been very good.

Or can somebody from the Turning Point Church shed some light on this issue?

Quote
Northwest

I was wondering what M&M or anyone else thought was the motivation behind the change of tithing methods.

Do you think the staff and pastors are just looking for more ways to get people to give, are they deceived or are they following what God told them?

Although I disagree with the new way the present tithing the bigger issue to me is how they came to the decision and if there is anyone who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them.

Northwest I believe you may want to ask: Does God contradict God....

The TurningPoint website says this about scripture: That the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God, fully authoritative for all matters of faith and practice.

If God instructs us through the Bible on how we ought to give then why would He give contradictory instruction through "special revelation"? Is this not what you mean when you ask "who is able to disagree with what they feel like God has told them". And if God can give "special revelation" to pastors that is outside the instruction of scripture or contradicts scripture then how can Turning Point claim a belief in the "Infallibility" of the Bible? How can they claim that scripture is "fully authoritative for all matters" if they must also receive from God "special revelation" and "additional instruction"?

It also begs to be asked, "Did God change his original instruction for how Turning Point was to receive offerings"? The practice of placing your giving in the bins at the back of the church as you leave was instituted by Turning Point at their very first service. There was even some discussion about whether or not to pass an offering plate with a disclaimer but that was rejected because Mike believed God had told him to not pass the plate but instead allow people to give, without pressure, as God laid it upon their hearts.

What may have motivated this change? That is a good question, Northwest. The simple easy answer is to say, "God told me to do it this way". Who would dare to question God? This answer effectively shuts down all discourse on the matter. But is that the real and true motivation or is it because of financial matters? Is the church budget being met? How far in debt is the church? These are all legitimate questions that members of your church should feel free to ask of its leaders and expect openness and transparency. But when the leaders say, "God told us to do this" then you are expected to not ask questions and toe the line. Stay alert, I suspect it will not be long before you begin to hear teachings about "prosperity" giving and "seed" money. Giving in order to be blessed 100 fold, etc.