Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
whatajoke
()
Date: November 06, 2008 04:00AM
Quote
whatajoke
Did any of you out there realize that Turning Point has a "secret" discipler booklet?????
www.scribd.com/doc/766452/Turning-Point-Discipler-Booklet?query2=discipler - 81k -
or google school of ministry arts soma
I hope it aint true. That shows some serious insecurity. All that Jesus supplied was out in the open.
I am pleased to post that based on the diligent followup research of two valued contributors to this forum that all information and appearances indicate that the secret document is the 4s New Believer document. Initial appearances did not look right as with all things related to our situation with RLC. I am glad that a couple of forum members had a chance to pursue this before I did and close this issue.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
Northwest
()
Date: November 06, 2008 07:14AM
This is in response to questions directed to me by TPR from the forum about soma northwest. I thought that it would be better to respond on this forum and have pasted the questions TPR asked below.
Northwest, what do YOU believe when it comes to "apostles", "prophets", "spiritual covering", and "covenant relationships"? Do you believe Mike is an Apostle? If so why do you believe this? Do you believe that Cyndi is a Prophetess? If so why do you believe this? Do you believe that you are "under the covering" of Mike? If so what does this mean?
Apostles: The bible is not clear enough in the verses discussing apostles to base hours and hours of teaching on the concept. I think that the title apostle is unecessarry and because its meaning is not clearly defined, leads to giving to much athority. If I were a pastor I would NEVER allow someone to call me apostle. I wouldn’t want people to follow me because of a title.
I think the teaching at the church is that as more people recognize mike as an apostle then the more God will bless the church. At one time I guess that all of the elders presented Mike with a globe and officially recognized him as an apostle. That month I guess the tithing went way up and there were also many healings, salvations ect… The leadership felt like this was God blessing them for there actions.
I believe the logic behind the apostlship teaching at the church is this:
1. God blesses unity
2. Receive a prophet as a prophet you get a prophets reward. (or apostle)
3. Different teachings about honnoring authorities.
Prophets: I believe that many people have prophetic giftings and that God uses them. However the title prophet has the same problems that apostleship and is also embarassing,
Spiritual Covering: I am not 100 percent familiar with it but I believe the teaching is this. It states that as long as you are following orders God will bless you even if what they tell you to do has negative results. For the most part I feel like this teaching results in blind submission to your authorities.
Covenant relationships: I don’t remember if I have ever heard this taught at turningpoint and am not really familiar with the teaching. I don’t know what a convenant relationship is about but I am sure they are not necessary. If you are really close to someone I don’t think you need the special title of “Covenant.”
Are pastor mike and cyndi Apostles?
I believe that mike may have gifting to plant churches and Cyndi may have a prophetic gifting. I don’t think that the title prophet or appostle help these giftings at all. Both these tiltles are also embarassing. If they were not then I think that they would refer to them both as prophet/apostle more openly on sudays.
Apostles: The bible is not clear enough in the verses discussing apostles to base hours and hours of teaching on the concept. I think that the title apostle is unecessarry and because its meaning is not clearly defined, leads to giving to much athority. If I were a pastor I would NEVER allow someone to call me apostle. I wouldn’t want people to follow me because of a title.
I think the teaching at the church is that as more people recognize mike as an apostle then the more God will bless the church. At one time I guess that all of the elders presented Mike with a globe and officially recognized him as an apostle. That month I guess the tithing went way up and there were also many healings, salvations ect… The leadership felt like this was God blessing them for there actions.
I believe the logic behind the apostlship teaching at the church is this:
1. God blesses unity
2. Receive a prophet as a prophet you get a prophets reward. (or apostle)
3. Different teachings about honnoring authorities.
Prophets: I believe that many people have prophetic giftings and that God uses them. However the title prophet has the same problems that apostleship and is also embarassing,
Spiritual Covering: I am not 100 percent familiar with it but I believe the teaching is this. It states that as long as you are following orders God will bless you even if what they tell you to do has negative results. For the most part I feel like this teaching results in blind submission to your authorities.
Covenant relationships: I don’t remember if I have ever heard this taught at turningpoint and am not really familiar with the teaching. I don’t know what a convenant relationship is about but I am sure they are not necessary. If you are really close to someone I don’t think you need the special title of “Covenant.”
Are pastor mike and cyndi Apostles?
I believe that mike may have gifting to plant churches and Cyndi may have a prophetic gifting. I don’t think that the title prophet or appostle help these giftings at all. Both these tiltles are also embarassing. If they were not then I think that they would refer to them both as prophet/apostle more openly on sudays.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
whatajoke
()
Date: November 06, 2008 10:04AM
From a guy named Chris' my space page. Just to continue to show that Mike believes himself to be an self appointed apostle and is looked upon that way. No wonde him and tony are in cahoots.
Heroes Jesus Christ, Apostle Paul, Charles Finney, Apostle Mike Villamor
Heroes Jesus Christ, Apostle Paul, Charles Finney, Apostle Mike Villamor
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: November 06, 2008 03:11PM
Northwest, I am glad you are searching for Truth. I found some things that pertain to your questions that clearly get to the root better than I was able to. See below:
Quote
Northwest
Here are a few comments or questions I have either personally made or had friends tell me them regarding turingpoint and its teaching. I would love for people to post there comments on what they think on this forum.
“I still feel like the holy spirit is there in worship, when that leaves I will leave.”
“I have never been to a church were people are as serious about God and as many people are getting saved. So what if they focus a little to much on authority etc...” see link...pg 112 Zeal Without Knowledge [books.google.com]
“_________ is really Godly why hasn't he seen this?” Or “why are you the only one sees these things.”
“Are you ever going to find a church that you agree with 100%.”
“So what if there are stupid people in the church who worship the pastor. I worship God and don't see why I should have to leave just because of them.”
“If Tony Cunningham (assuming he is everything that is described by the forum) were the pastor of a church, and 1 million people were getting saved every week in his ministry, would you attend his church?”
Is the fact that the church believes the pastor is an apostle and all the other things which M&M described mean that I have to leave the church immediately. Can I not stay, disagree and pray for change.
Here is a testimony I heard about at the church. I don't remember if I heard it directly either way I believe what they said:
They were attending a college about 45 minutes from marysville. While at college they had not really been seeking God, although they were still a Christian. One day while in prayer this person heard God tell them to go to marysville and learn about discipleship. (or something like that). So they decide to attend a church in marysville and walked into the doors of Turning point. The church was right in the middle a year long series called, “Discipleship, into the nations.”
If my church is so terrible why would God send someone specifically to learn about the part which is apperantly one of the worst parts? Or was this person deceived and really heard a demons voice.
One of the biggest problems I have in evaluating the church is the fact that God seems to be blessing the church through his holy spirit, salvation, healing and even speaking to people who know nothing about the church and telling them to attend it. If the church is evil and wrong why would God do this?
When the pastor is called an apostle most people have never heard of this teaching. No other church they have gone to has taught it. And the pastor carries himself in a way they have never seen. Chances are they used to go to a church of 30 people who saw one person saved every year. They then walk into a church with many people who are seeking after God with all there heart. In evaluating the apostlship teaching unless you have talked to someone who can explain why it is wrong you will most likely see this teaching as an explanation for the positive differences between there old church and new one. Also the fact that so many other people who they respect don't seem to object to it.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
M&M
()
Date: November 07, 2008 10:29PM
Someone wrote me in a private message asking if I was wanting Mike and Cyndi to ask for my forgiveness for the wrong they did to me.
It reminds me of the saying: there is the good reason we do things and then there is the real reason.
If at some point Mike and Cyndi come back from their Sabbatical and have connected with healthy pastors and leaders who are in their 50's and 60's and they develop genuine accountability with those who know the temptations they have fallen into and thus the church is saved from wreckage I would be delighted.
In the 5 years we were at TP it experienced 100% growth each year. From 125 to over 800!!
They are genuinely gifted and talented people who have great leadership skills. When I have asked other Christians to evaluate my concerns with TP I have always begun by saying if I were to state all the positive things that are happening it would take 4 hours.
Would it be deeply touching and gratifying to hear them say thank you for trying to warn us? Yes it would. It would be an amazing experience. But I hope this isn't about me. I hope that this is about a church not crashing into an iceberg of authoritarianism.
I had submitted an article to Christianity Today titled HOW PASTORS BECOME GODS. I never got word back. But I wrote it before I discovered the books TPR has referred to. Then I realized I had essentially reinvented the wheel.
From observation of three different churches in my life time where the pastors went from servants to gods without even realizing they were doing it, I came to the conclusion there is a pattern.
Three basic things I have noticied.
1. The pastor defines scripture the scripture does not define the pastor. The Bible says what he says it says.
2. The leader goes down a path of ever increasing authoritarianism. It is like a drug. They must have more. Things that would have been unthinkable 3 years before are expected now.
3. The leader loses a sense of seperation between him and God. Without flinching they believe God told them things that from an outside point of view are totally self serving. This is where the church takes on the feel of a cult. The insiders are used to it and don't see it but an uninitated person is revulsed.
It reminds me of the saying: there is the good reason we do things and then there is the real reason.
If at some point Mike and Cyndi come back from their Sabbatical and have connected with healthy pastors and leaders who are in their 50's and 60's and they develop genuine accountability with those who know the temptations they have fallen into and thus the church is saved from wreckage I would be delighted.
In the 5 years we were at TP it experienced 100% growth each year. From 125 to over 800!!
They are genuinely gifted and talented people who have great leadership skills. When I have asked other Christians to evaluate my concerns with TP I have always begun by saying if I were to state all the positive things that are happening it would take 4 hours.
Would it be deeply touching and gratifying to hear them say thank you for trying to warn us? Yes it would. It would be an amazing experience. But I hope this isn't about me. I hope that this is about a church not crashing into an iceberg of authoritarianism.
I had submitted an article to Christianity Today titled HOW PASTORS BECOME GODS. I never got word back. But I wrote it before I discovered the books TPR has referred to. Then I realized I had essentially reinvented the wheel.
From observation of three different churches in my life time where the pastors went from servants to gods without even realizing they were doing it, I came to the conclusion there is a pattern.
Three basic things I have noticied.
1. The pastor defines scripture the scripture does not define the pastor. The Bible says what he says it says.
2. The leader goes down a path of ever increasing authoritarianism. It is like a drug. They must have more. Things that would have been unthinkable 3 years before are expected now.
3. The leader loses a sense of seperation between him and God. Without flinching they believe God told them things that from an outside point of view are totally self serving. This is where the church takes on the feel of a cult. The insiders are used to it and don't see it but an uninitated person is revulsed.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: November 08, 2008 01:16AM
Quote
whatajoke
From a guy named Chris' my space page. Just to continue to show that Mike believes himself to be an self appointed apostle and is looked upon that way. No wonde him and tony are in cahoots.
Heroes Jesus Christ, Apostle Paul, Charles Finney, Apostle Mike Villamor
at what point in time did mike become an apostle?
how did it happen?
I suspect Tony had something to with it....
just because a guy is a pastor and that church plants a church does not make the pastor an apostle. the church as a body may be moving in an apostolic way but for one guy to take credit fo that is a bit to much arrogance.
Then again with Tony involved I hope the red lights are going off!!!
now you have 2 self appointed apostles.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
BraveHeart
()
Date: November 10, 2008 06:39AM
Believers
TEST the things that Tony has taught
Test his authenticity
If he is unwilling to be transparent and approachable then what is he hiding?
TEST the things that Tony has taught
Test his authenticity
If he is unwilling to be transparent and approachable then what is he hiding?
Attachments: TonyRealDeception.jpg (101.3 KB)
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
whatajoke
()
Date: November 11, 2008 07:24AM
that is a frightening image.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
TurningPointReject
()
Date: November 12, 2008 02:24AM
Mentors beget mentories; teachers beget students; the student becomes like the teacher. Who is your teacher? Who has mentored the one who teaches you? Show me who your mentor is and I will know who you are.
Jesus said, in Matthew, 24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub,[a] how much more the members of his household!
26"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
And again in Luke, 39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
Know who teaches your teacher. Their DNA will infect your lifeblood.
Jesus said, in Matthew, 24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub,[a] how much more the members of his household!
26"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
And again in Luke, 39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
Know who teaches your teacher. Their DNA will infect your lifeblood.
Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by:
GodisFaithful
()
Date: November 13, 2008 02:40AM
Since someone suggested we copy this entry into this main thread.... here it goes....
We went to TP from 1998-2001, when Tony first came up to promote SOMA. We were part of the church when there was no connection to Tony, after he had given Mike advice, that Mike refused to take and there were years of no talking. I have that on record from Tony and have talked to Mike about it. Mike was always full of passion for God and was a true worshiper. After Tony came up, Mike, Jeff and and a few others urged us to consider going to SOMA. We moved to RLC to do so. We sat under Tony's teaching for 2 1/2 years and I can tell you, what you are describing in Mike is the "DNA" of Tony, in his very words. The weekend our 1st child was born Mike and Cyndi were in Sacramento and came and met us for Coffee in Old Sacramento. Mike held my child and told me that Tony had just made him a spiritual son. He was so in awe, impressed with the gravity of the honor that had been bestowed on him. After knowing the "old Mike" and hearing things that are going on at TP, there is no doubt in my mind that Mike is a clone of Tony. It breaks my heart to hear that this is true, but those who are there should be warned that Mike hasn't gone out in the deep end as much as Tony has, but unless God open's their eyes and there is brokenness before God, Mike will go even more astray from scripture and become even more controlling and power hungry. Pray! that God would open Mike's eyes and soften his heart during his sabatical.
Here is a short list of traits that Tony bestows on his sons and followers
Buisness savy ideas/greed for wealth
Teaching honor to those are to give the honor - resulting in personal gain/promotion
Teaching spiritual parenting - removing the authority of your parents and putting oneself under some else's spiritual authority, for the goal of a greater spiritual inheritance
Discipleship that extends far beyond helping people follow God, more into helping people follow the ways of the leader
Generosity of the people, to the leaders benefit
We went to TP from 1998-2001, when Tony first came up to promote SOMA. We were part of the church when there was no connection to Tony, after he had given Mike advice, that Mike refused to take and there were years of no talking. I have that on record from Tony and have talked to Mike about it. Mike was always full of passion for God and was a true worshiper. After Tony came up, Mike, Jeff and and a few others urged us to consider going to SOMA. We moved to RLC to do so. We sat under Tony's teaching for 2 1/2 years and I can tell you, what you are describing in Mike is the "DNA" of Tony, in his very words. The weekend our 1st child was born Mike and Cyndi were in Sacramento and came and met us for Coffee in Old Sacramento. Mike held my child and told me that Tony had just made him a spiritual son. He was so in awe, impressed with the gravity of the honor that had been bestowed on him. After knowing the "old Mike" and hearing things that are going on at TP, there is no doubt in my mind that Mike is a clone of Tony. It breaks my heart to hear that this is true, but those who are there should be warned that Mike hasn't gone out in the deep end as much as Tony has, but unless God open's their eyes and there is brokenness before God, Mike will go even more astray from scripture and become even more controlling and power hungry. Pray! that God would open Mike's eyes and soften his heart during his sabatical.
Here is a short list of traits that Tony bestows on his sons and followers
Buisness savy ideas/greed for wealth
Teaching honor to those are to give the honor - resulting in personal gain/promotion
Teaching spiritual parenting - removing the authority of your parents and putting oneself under some else's spiritual authority, for the goal of a greater spiritual inheritance
Discipleship that extends far beyond helping people follow God, more into helping people follow the ways of the leader
Generosity of the people, to the leaders benefit
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