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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 29, 2008 12:56PM

Why settle for a significant apostle when you could have a Super Apostle! Go here today to find out if your apostle is more than ordinary: []

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: M&M ()
Date: October 29, 2008 01:35PM

TPR asked me to write why my wife and I left Turning Point.

In my first entry here I had mentioned many of the good things about TP. When we first came we were very excited. We knew the church was going to grow and we were excited to be part of it.

Gradually there were things that I grew uneasy about but tried to repress. In part because no church is perfect and I didn't want to be critical.

I will share briefly little things that were small but then grew into concerns. Finally there was one sermon that embodied the concerns I had and then we left with great heartbreak.

1. I became one of the people being discipled by Pastor Mike. It was a great honor to be asked, but soon it grew uncomfortable. I became conscious that Mike was not comfortable with normal interaction where you take on different roles. He, for the most part, had to be the authority. He preferred to teach for 50 minutes or so and then have us leave. I talked to him about it at one point and he tried to change but he wasn't comfortable with asking open questions and inviting dialogue and getting us involved. He would ask closed questions and then go back to lecturing.

2. Twice he forgot and slept and missed our discipleship. What was odd was he didn't call and apologize. I thought it was weird. I felt, but I don't know, that no one wanted to tell him he missed our meeting. We met at his house and there would be 5-6 of us standing by the front door and then we would leave when it was obvious that no one was awake.

3. The church developed a dress code for ushers and worship leaders. In one sense it was no big deal in another it represented to me a change in culture. One Sunday Mike had actually preached in shorts when we first came there. Gradually he and Cyndi started dressing up and then the worship team started dressing more and more alike, then then told us the greeters and ushers had to dress a certain way. I e-mailed him the concern I had that this was communicating a theology that one's spiritual standing was in part determined by outward dress. That the only standard should be modesty and humility. When we met and I expressed my concerns and the natural human tendency to conform and how this would lead to guests coming and facing the barrier of feeling "out of uniform" when that should be no barrier at all, he said that since I didn't trust him and I should look to someone else to disciple me.

4. The church left the denomination. This was hard because of past experiences with churches without accountability.

5. They then annouced that Mike was an Apostle. This set off alarm bells. I had already been through two apostles with catastrophic results. I shared this with Mike and he felt that my alarm was just me projecting my past negative experiences on him.

6. All this time there was a sense that those who were elders were such first and foremost because of their compliance with Mike and Cyndi.

Finally he preached a sermon on healing. If you are familiar with Kenneth Hagin and Copeland and the Rhema school the sermon was right out of that. Not to get into details but it represented a radical shift in thought.

Simply put the theology teaches that Christ paid not only all sin but all sickness. That you can receive healing JUST as you receive salvation, it is a gift and you just have to claim it. He was going to preach the following week on the reasons people are not healed.

I made an appointment to visit him that Thursday. I wanted to make sure he was committing himself to that theology and he understood its implications. He was adamant that everyone should get healed. That it was failure on their part if they weren't (sin, lack of faith, ignorance etc). I asked if it was guaranteed that a baby of a couple on staff was going to get healed of Down's Syndrome. I asked if he was prepared to preach at the funeral of a 5 year old who dies of cancer and was he comfortable with the family having the sermon he was going to preach in their CD player, wondering what sin did we commit, why did our son die?

I told him personal gut wrenching stories of those who believed that teaching and the pain it caused.

In the end he was adamant. What was difficult for me was no one knew he was going to preach that sermon, he had recieved it as a revelation from God. He didn't lead people through what he used to believe and why he had changed his mind. He simply preached it like he had never believed anything different. The next week in Soma they were still teaching the old (and I believe more balanced teaching) my son noticed and went up to the teacher (who was also an elder and pastor) and asked why she was still teaching the old stuff. Her answer was that Mike hadn't told her to change yet.

That day I said I would have to leave the church. Mike's last words to me that morning were: "You are in a dangerous place, I fear for you."

It was a very difficult meeting. Later I requested to meet with all the elders to appeal the teaching and the concern with how no one was informed ahead of time. That of the 7 or 8 elders all but one was either on staff or a spouse (or both) were on staff. That this led to a conflict of interest. I am not a theologian but I documented the theological problems with the Rhema theology. When I requested to meet and address them on this Mike said he didn't need to meet with me because he already knew what I believed but if anyone else wanted to they could. The elders had all received copies of the paper I wrote. I then met with two of them seperately. Both were great. But kept saying over and over. Good questions I'll have to ask Mike about that. I realized it was pointless, if Mike wasn't there to address the problems in person with someone capable theologically of asking follow up questions it was pointless.

It has been 2 and a half years since we left. It was very tough emotionally especially since our sons stayed. I wrote out some criteria to evaluate objectively what I expected would happen if Mike was leading the church in an authoritarian direction and what did happen.

Let me know if anyone would like me to write that.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 31, 2008 05:01AM

MM your and awesome person I feel your pain and I know your not a devisive person you were a voice crying out in the wilderness

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: October 31, 2008 11:56PM

Thank you M&M for sharing. You have a compassion for your former church that is evident to all who read these posts. I am sorry for the hurt and lack of respect and compassion you received as you sought to ask legitimate questions of the leaders in your former church.

Culture change at churches happen for a reason. When the emphasis changes from the condition of the heart to the external appearance there is good reason to be concerned. Jesus strongly rebuked the Pharisees for their emphasis on dress and appearance:

“How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. Blind guides! You strain your water so you won't accidentally swallow a gnat; then you swallow a camel! You are so careful to clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but inside you are filthy—full of greed and self-indulgence! Blind Pharisees! First wash the inside of the cup, and then the outside will become clean, too…You are like whitewashed tombs—beautiful on the outside but filled on the inside with dead people's bones and all sorts of impurity. You try to look like upright people outwardly, but inside your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness (Matthew 23:23-28 NLT selected).”

This commentary from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

23:13-33 The scribes and Pharisees were enemies to the gospel of Christ, and therefore to the salvation of the souls of men. It is bad to keep away from Christ ourselves, but worse also to keep others from him. Yet it is no new thing for the show and form of godliness to be made a cloak to the greatest enormities. But dissembled piety will be reckoned double iniquity. They were very busy to turn souls to be of their party. Not for the glory of God and the good of souls, but that they might have the credit and advantage of making converts. Gain being their godliness, by a thousand devices they made religion give way to their worldly interests. They were very strict and precise in smaller matters of the law, but careless and loose in weightier matters. It is not the scrupling a little sin that Christ here reproves; if it be a sin, though but a gnat, it must be strained out; but the doing that, and then swallowing a camel, or, committing a greater sin. While they would seem to be godly, they were neither sober nor righteous. We are really, what we are inwardly. Outward motives may keep the outside clean, while the inside is filthy; but if the heart and spirit be made new, there will be newness of life; here we must begin with ourselves. The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was like the ornaments of a grave, or dressing up a dead body, only for show. The deceitfulness of sinners' hearts appears in that they go down the streams of the sins of their own day, while they fancy that they should have opposed the sins of former days. We sometimes think, if we had lived when Christ was upon earth, that we should not have despised and rejected him, as men then did; yet Christ in his Spirit, in his word, in his ministers, is still no better treated. And it is just with God to give those up to their hearts' lusts, who obstinately persist in gratifying them. Christ gives men their true characters.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: November 01, 2008 12:03AM

Regarding Healing: Why does God heal some and not others? Your former pastor lays the burden on the shoulders of the people by saying it is their failure due to sin, lack of faith, ignorance etc. This ignores what the Bible as a whole teaches us in regards to healing. Healing is God's domain. It is God's choice to heal or not to heal. In scripture we see those who are healed and it is attributed to their faith. We see others who are healed, even though they have no faith. Please see below a concise perspective on healing from a wholly Biblical perspective:

James 5:14-16 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

If there is one question that befuddles people, it is this one! It may be asked as a matter of curiosity, or it may be asked passionately by someone who prayed fervently for a loved one only to watch them get worse while another will be restored. This person loved God and served Him faithfully while the other cared nothing about eternal things!

1. The Sovereign God CAN heal anyone! In Deuteronomy 32:39, God says “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal...”

And in Psalm 103:1-3, "Praise the LORD, O my soul, all my inmost being, praise His holy name. Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits--Who forgives all your sin, and heals all your diseases...”

If God is God, then He could heal anyone, do you agree? If we didn’t believe that God could heal a person, why would we bother to pray for them at all? But—and this is important—it is because we do believe that God can heal that we are so taken back when He does not!

People of faith believe that God can heal! So, our question is not: “Why can’t God heal some people,” but "Why doesn’t God heal some people?”

2. Let’s look at a few scriptures re: healing Matthew 9:20-22 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed." Jesus turned and saw her. "Take heart, daughter," he said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was healed from that moment.

Luke 18:42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus, praising God. When all the people saw it, they also praised God.

And then there is the instruction in the Book of James:
James 5:14-15 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.

Who doesn’t love stories and instructions like this!!! “I go to Jesus with my need, and He answers my prayer— immediately and on the spot!” That’s the stuff great sermons are made of, and these stories are 100% true, but they are not the entire story!

By selecting these scriptures and carefully avoiding others, many Christians—especially those who follow some of the more extreme teachers—there has come a teaching that “all physical healing is in the atonement of Jesus, that no Christian should ever be sick, and if they are sick and are not healed, it is because they do not have enough faith!”

The problem is—when you are dealing with a subject this broad, and this important, we must examine the whole Bible, not just selected verses. You can reach into the Bible, pick a verse here and a verse there, and come up with a whole lot of bad theology!

3. Some healings took place in the Bible just because God chose to do so! Acts 3:1-8 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer--at three in the afternoon. Now a man crippled from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!" So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong. He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God.

Nothing in this text suggests remotely that 1) this man was a believer in Christ 2) that he had “faith in Christ” 3) that he was even expecting to be healed! The whole context shows that the only thing he expected was a monetary handout from Peter and John.

But Peter, being led by the Holy Spirit, spoke healing to this man, and instantaneously this man, by the Sovereign hand of God, was healed! He became a believer that day!

Here’s another interesting event in the ministry of Jesus— no two were ever alike!
John 5:1-9a Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie--the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

Several things to note here: 1) Many people with physical needs were gathered at this place.
2) We are not told how or why Jesus happened to pick this man to speak to. The man obviously does not know who Jesus is. Nor does John say why Jesus did not heal any/all of the rest of the people gathered there that day; Just this one man!

In both of these cases, faith in Christ was not present, yet God in His Sovereignty, healed these two and did not heal others.

4. And here are a couple of examples of where we would have expected a healing to take place and it did not! 2 Corinthians 12:7-9 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
Paul—one of the early and great men of faith—prayed for healing and God said, No!
And then, in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul writes: Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.

Paul, why didn’t you heal this man? Didn’t you have enough faith? Didn’t he have enough faith? Why does God heal some people and not others?

5. Is the lack of healing a sign of poor faith? Hebrews 11:32-39 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again.

Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith!

They all had faith! But in the Sovereign will of God, each had to live out the circumstances in which they found themselves.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Date: November 01, 2008 06:15AM

1. God has chosen to be glorified through undeniable healings of some, and to be glorified by taking others through their sickness and hurt. All of this is rooted in the Sovereignty of God—He is Lord over all!

2. When faced with difficult circumstances or illness, our part is to -Pray to be delivered, healed, whatever. -Do all that we can to solve the situation. -Trust God in the midst of whatever we face.
-Praise Him in the midst of all of life’s challenges
-Never cease to trust Romans 8:28

3. Realize that God has an overall plan that we as His created beings may not understand in this lifetime!

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: M&M ()
Date: November 01, 2008 12:25PM

Dear nooneofanyimportance,

Thank you for your kind words.

I do want to emphasize that one of the many good things about Pastor Mike is that he was willing to meet. He also has spoken positively about me in Soma. Specifically that when I left the church I went and spoke to him.

To those who are elders and teachers at TP, I don't believe TP has gone as far as RLC. I pray for you almost every day. My hope is that the church will not fall into destruction and lambs get wounded and broken.

Please consider, if you only had the Bible and not the hours and hours of 5-fold teaching could you possibly defend on Biblical grounds alone the doctrine you have on apostles?

If you could renounce this one teaching so much else would fall with it but the church body would not have to fall.

Thank you for even considering looking carefully into the scriptures to see if it is so.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: whatajoke ()
Date: November 03, 2008 11:24AM

Did any of you out there realize that Turning Point has a "secret" discipler booklet????? - 81k -

or google school of ministry arts soma

I hope it aint true. That shows some serious insecurity. All that Jesus supplied was out in the open.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: M&M ()
Date: November 04, 2008 01:08PM

Last two and half years

I write this with the elders and leaders at TP in mind but also those who feel concerns and can't quite put your finger on why. I only visited one Soma class. They happened to be studying the heroes of the faith and in particular Martin Luther. They honored Martin for nailing the 95 theses on the Wittenburg Door. I feel this forum is a kind of Wittenburg Door. Please feel free to correct me if I have misconstrued something.

It was very hard to leave TP. The church had grown from around 125 people to around 800 in the 5 years we were there. A few nights later our sons were all home and we told them our decision. They were all deeply disappointed. One of our sons turned up his cd player so we wouldn't hear him cry. My wife wasn't totally behind it and actually attended for several months after. I went into severe mood swings from wondering who I thought I was, everyone else thought everything was perfect, maybe I am deeply deceived, to how could I have been so stupid to have not seen this earlier. There was also great concern for my sons and future daughter in law. Were they going to get hurt?

As we wrestled with these things my wife and I visited old friends who we knew years before we attended TP. One day we visited one couple and I asked if we could tell our story with the idea that we wanted them to tell us if they thought I was bitter or deceived. As I recited the concerns I had, the wife asked a very insightful question. “When you have had these kind of warning lights go off in your heart in the past have you been right?” I had to answer honestly. I have never been wrong.

We visited another couple we have known for 24 years when we outlined the story to them they both saw red lights flashing. It was that night that things were clarifed for my wife. We also brought two of our sons to my brothers house. They had gone through a church scandal in which the pastor came to believe he was an apostle.

Meanwhile our three sons were deeply involved in TP. We were still tangently involved in that they stored signs in our garage (they still do), and our sons would have all kinds of friends over. One time they had a ministry outreach in which Mike formed four teams that were given money and given the mission to do a ministry to 4 corners of Marysville. Two of the teams spent hours that week at our house.

It was a blessing in a way to have to keep going back for special meetings like when one of our sons would speak or something like that. We were not shunned by people (though other friends of ours have said they have been).

Our three sons were being mentored by 3 key people at the church. The church calls it discipleship and they call the person their discipler. Pastor Jeff Barnes was great with our youngest son. He allowed him to express the concerns he had and answered them as best he could.

Sid discipled our middle son and he did the same. And Pastor David Luster did the same with our oldest son. I would say that our youngest son was the most aggressive in arguing with me and with them.

Before we had left the church had had a major fundraiser to get a building. They had hired a firm that specializes in these types of things and we hosted one of the meetings at our house. The spring after we left one of our sons came home and excitedly talked to us in amazement about the giant house Pastor Mike had bought. He went on and on about all the features it had, the movie theater etc.. I was stunned. When you watch the little commercials on youtube about the church they usually feature Mike next to his Tracker. He has mentioned in fundraiser letters how he is still driving the Tracker. It is meant to show the sacrifice he made to help with the building fund. But here he was buying this house in an exclusive neighborhood. Throughout the fundraising he had said things like donate your IRA's, don't buy crown molding donate to the fund. And less then a year later they were moving into that house.

I made the mistake of flying off the handle after I heard that, I think I said something stupid like that is an abomination. The point wasn't that big houses in exclusive neighborhoods are bad, but the appearance was horrible. They had lived in a nice neighborhood where several families moved just to be near them. They had called others to sacrifice and then they moved there. I have often thought it would be helpful if a pastor could think of what it would be like if Nightline or 60 Minutes did a story on them. What would real people see? Can you imagine them playing a CD of Mike imploring the people to give with great sacrifice and as they are playing it they show the Villamors Durango pulling up to their new house? Then the newsman shows the houses of the average parishoner and has them tell the sacrifices they made. What would it look like?

Of course Mike and soon Jeff Barnes who moved next to him had an argument. They were involved in real estate and other things and in their minds they were sacrificing. But this led to another challenge. The average core member of TP spent 10 hours volunteering with the church each week (my sons easily spent 15). Meanwhile Mike and Jeff were paid full time salaries and then supplemented their pay by working on real estate on the side. Cyndi started a business with two other ladies that was a direct spin off of a Mother's day promotion the church had done. They didn't see how this had the appearance of evil. The shepherds asked the flock to live sacrificially yet they moved into an exclusive neighborhood. The shepherds asked the flock to spend hours and hours above their normal jobs volunteering with the church yet they spent their free time pursuing business ventures.

Whereas the flock along with their other work needed to take care of their own homes and chores around their own houses, the shcpherd had the sheep doing their laundry, mowing their lawn, and cleaning their house.

Naturally there were times when there was tension with our sons. They were never told to disassociate from us. And, for the most part I tried to show restraint in criticizing the church. Our two oldest were deeply immersed in SOMA. They would occasionally say odd things that would make me curious. Like one time one of them said that apostle meant captain and that Mike never went anywhere without the DVD, MASTER AND COMMANDER. I have 4 greek lexicons. Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Analytic Greek Lexicon, Arndt, Bauer, Gingrich and Vines. I looked up apostle in all four. Kittle's had over 60 pages on apostle yet none mentioned an Apostle being a captain. I asked my sons if they would mind asking which Greek scholar Mike got his information from. I don't think they ever asked.
The problem is obvious. A captain is like God on a ship. The apostles were to be first and foremost servants of all.

Probably the hardest thing for me will sound the silliest. My second son went to be part of a mission trip to the Philippines. We were excited for him. He had already gone to India and Thailand with another church. One of the highlights of that trip had been us meeting him at the airport when he arrived. We couldn't wait to see him when he got back from this trip. I was excited because I happened to have that Friday off. We could be there to see him upon his return. Then we were told that the trip did not end until they got to the church. I couldn't believe it. I guess they were having a church service that night and they wanted everyone to go on the vans right to the church and they couldn't say hello or hug their family until after the church service. I had tried to be sneaky and asked his girlfriend (now wife) if she would ask Cyndi if she could meet him at the airport. She had said yes. I told her not to say anything else and try to avoid her so that she wouldn't change her mind. Well it backfired because we forgot to get the flight information. When we called the church office they refused to tell her. They didn't know that Cyndi had made an exception.

To me it was surreal. A family can't meet their children when they return from a trip? The next year our two daughter in laws were involved in a trip. This time they were returning on a Saturday when there would be no church service. I thought great now we will be able to meet them at the airport. Wrong, the trip still didn't end until they got to the church. It was weird beyond belief to me. When they got back one of the vans arrived before the others did. They stayed in their van for several minutes. Their families were all standing there 5 feet away yet no one moved. I finally tapped on a window and asked: “Are you allowed to come out?” They answered we don't want to come out until the rest of the team arrives. They finally came to their senses and got out. Then when the whole group arrived they all got into the building.

What was it that was so important we couldn't greet our kids at the airport? A 15 minute talk that was very general. They had had multiple stops in their return he could have said what he said anywhere in the 20 hours or so they flew. It seemed that there was this immense need to control people.

Anyway some final thoughts. They have had two Discipleship Conferences. At TP there are people who have 5 disciples others have 12, or 7. I asked one of my sons once if there was anyone else in the Bible who had disciples except John the baptist and Jesus, and the Pharisees. He was in the middle of helping organize all the massive details for this conference and was exhausted. He looked at me and said: “Thanks Dad you just undermined the whole premise of the conference.” Of course we do need mentors but no one should have a position that would lead to the temptation to lord over them. No one should be able to boast of having disciples because they don't, we are all disciples of Jesus.

I hope this will help many of you.

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Re: Turning Point Church World Outreach Center-Tell Your Story
Posted by: Northwest ()
Date: November 04, 2008 04:32PM

I sent this as a private message to Turning point Reject and was encouraged by him to share my thoughts with the group. It has been edited since I sent this to TP Reject and I also included a few of the questions TP reject asked ( they are written in red). He is welcome to clarify any of them, ask more or include ones which I didn't. I would invite others to give there feedback and also ask questions. I plan writing more when I have time to do so.

I have been attending turning point for around 5 years. Although not as involved now because of work I have served in a variety of different ministries in the church for most of that time. I don't really have any personal stories of the church hurting me or doing anything like what has been described on the RCL forum.
(I don't believe very many if any of these stories exist at TP. But, unless I were in a high leadership role or had a close friend get hurt, I don't think I would ever be aware of it if anything like RLC did occur at TP.)
I do have concerns with the pastor being given the title “apostle,” the system of accountability and the teachings on authority. What are your specific concerns?

Also from reading the RCL post I do see similarities between the two churches but would have to say that TP has not reached anywhere near the level of RCL. How are they similar?

When M&M left the church I sought him out and discussed why he was leaving. I agreed that most of the reasons he had for leaving were genuine issues in the church. I also have agreed with most of his statements he has made on this forum.

I am still praying about what God wants me to do. Even if turingpoint were as bad as RCL is described on the forum (which it is not), I feel that I am in a healthy enough enough situation that I am not going to start worshiping the pastor rather than God (Or whatever is supposed to happen to you if you go to RLC). When I hear sermons I don't blindly obey every word of them. I have several close friends who don't attend my church and are God seeking Christians. I regularly talk to them and am able to get a perspective different my own. This on top of seeking God, and looking up the scriptures from sermons I feel helps me to be able to take in the good and leave the bad. I also don't pretend that my church or any is the "perfect" church.

At this point I feel that just because I disagree on a few of the churches beliefs doesn't mean I should immediately leave. I am very aware of the issues and will leave if I feel it becomes too unhealthy. What does "too unhealthy" look like for you?

Also I feel like in the past few months the church seems like it has been undergoing positive changes. I have felt like there has always been a push towards a performance mindset at turingpoint. However most of the sermons I have heard over the past few months have been all about how God loves you regardless of what you do etc... In one of them they read a story about someone who served in almost every ministry and was always at the church. However the pastor shared how she was motivated out of trying to earn God's love and other's approval.

I feel like this is a healthy step in the right direction and at this point don't feel the need to leave the church.

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