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M&M
Thank you Buddy for filling in the larger context of what Pastor Mike preached about.

I must reluctantly acknowledge that it Buddy was accurate in communicating what Mike said.

I got to hear a segment of the sermon, when he said "Feed it dog food" it got a laugh. That part was meant to be funny. However the larger context was the need for unity that doesn't criticize.

I think the tone of the sermon was that unity should come suppressing questioning.

In my experinence a healthy family or church create an atmosphere of transparency and openess. The leader doesn't try to repress. One can gain unity by putting a gag order on people and making the environment ackward to question the position of the leader. This only leads to backdoor forms of communication.

One of the teachers at SOMA did a great job by inviting the students to study some of the key doctrines of TP. This has led to healthy questioning and study by the students.

I think that leads to healthy unity not fake unity.

Thanks M&M for making that important distinction between true unity and fake unity.

I agree that questioning doesn't constitute disunity; questioning for the sake of wanting to understand truth has a clarifying, even cleansing effect on a body of believers. Questions should abound in a healthy community. They help to dispell misunderstanding. They help others grown in their understanding of truth. Questions are WONDERFUL ways to learn.

Questions are our friends. Truth can stand up to questions. Lies cannot. People who lie are the only ones who need to fear questions.

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buddy
Turning Point women, I noticed Turning Point is promoting the women's ministry Designer's Original Women's Conference with speaker Lisa Bevere. I noticed her best selling books in the word faith movement section in the book store. Can anybody help me out? She seems to promote herself in sale merchandise. Buddy

YIKES, Buddy! I just went to this bookstore [www.faithcenteredresources.com] and the Beveres are listed (check the scrolling marquee near the bottom of the page) with all the big word-faith names. Other bookstores have them lumped in that same genre.

I have friends in another state who have known these people PERSONALLY, have attended the church in Colorado as members who were involved in various ministries there and had very close personal dealings with the leadership there. They left the church (before the big blow out with the pastor's problems) for similar reasons that people are leaving RLC and now Turning Point. False (word-faith and other) teaching, authoritarian views (based on John Bevere's book Under Cover), double standards, unethical/unscrupulous behavior by leadership.... The list is longer, but I'll stop there.

As you likely know, New Life Church there was in the news when it was discovered that its pastor, Ted Haggard (also president of the National Association of Evangelicals), was seeing a male prostitue and buying drugs (meth) from him as well. That church has major integrity issues, not only there, but all the way through. It has hurt a good many people.

The word-faith teaching is poison that makes people feel invincible behind this unbiblical, fake "shield of faith." It leads to focusing on spiritual fireworks and showmanship. It's an attempt to lead Jesus rather than to follow Him. The focus is on us and our "faith" rather on the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. The word-faith fruit has the same appealing appearances that Eve's forbidden fruit had. And like the fruit, biting into the teaching won't kill you on the spot; it'll just kill your faith little by little, leaving you dry and disillusioned, dead.

In regards to Mr. Beveres' Book entitled Honors Reward, please read the following product description, about the author, and then the very telling EDITORIAL REVIEW about this book. Sounds so much like the crap we got at RLC. Look out TPC....you are in the talons of something you may not be able to get out of if you don't stop it now!

Product Description
In HONOR'S REWARD, bestselling author John Bevere unveils the power and truth of an often-overlooked principle-the spiritual law of honor. Bevere explains that understanding the vital role of this virtue will enable readers to attract blessing both now and for eternity.

About the Author
John Bevere is a bestselling author and popular conference speaker. He and his wife, Lisa (also a bestselling author), founded Messenger International in 1990. The ministry has grown into a multi-faceted international outreach that includes a weekly television program, The Messenger, which broadcasts in 214 nations. John has authored numerous books, including A Heart Ablaze, Under Cover, The Bait of Satan, and The Fear of the Lord. He and Lisa live in Colorado with their four sons. You can visit John Bevere on the Web at www.messengerintl.org.



EDITORIAL REVIEW : From Publishers Weekly
Bestselling author and international conference speaker Bevere (Driven by Eternity and Bait of Satan) is known for his trademark theme of believing in God for the impossible. Fans won't be disappointed by the similar all things are possible tone in this book on the need to integrate the principle of honor into every aspect of life, both functionally and spiritually. Bevere's focus on the biblical doctrine of honoring those governing authorities, whether in the civil, church, family, and social arena, is substantiated through scripture. Still, many in non-charismatic evangelical churches will take issue with the author's presumptive stance on ministers' right to receive double honor in the form of material wealth. Recounting the numerous times he has witnessed opulent gifts and preferential treatment bestowed upon him and other Christian servants as outward signs of being honored, Bevere provides an endless litany of hotel accommodations, presents, and the like. This reads as distasteful and greedy when contrasted with the fact that even Christ had nowhere to lay his head. The principle of honor is a worthy one, but Bevere's approach deteriorates too frequently into a what's-in-it-for-me tenor. (Nov. 15)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

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longtimer60
In regards to Mr. Beveres' Book entitled Honors Reward, please read the following product description, about the author, and then the very telling EDITORIAL REVIEW about this book. Sounds so much like the crap we got at RLC. Look out TPC....you are in the talons of something you may not be able to get out of if you don't stop it now!

Product Description
In HONOR'S REWARD, bestselling author John Bevere unveils the power and truth of an often-overlooked principle-the spiritual law of honor. Bevere explains that understanding the vital role of this virtue will enable readers to attract blessing both now and for eternity.

About the Author
John Bevere is a bestselling author and popular conference speaker. He and his wife, Lisa (also a bestselling author), founded Messenger International in 1990. The ministry has grown into a multi-faceted international outreach that includes a weekly television program, The Messenger, which broadcasts in 214 nations. John has authored numerous books, including A Heart Ablaze, Under Cover, The Bait of Satan, and The Fear of the Lord. He and Lisa live in Colorado with their four sons. You can visit John Bevere on the Web at www.messengerintl.org.



EDITORIAL REVIEW : From Publishers Weekly
Bestselling author and international conference speaker Bevere (Driven by Eternity and Bait of Satan) is known for his trademark theme of believing in God for the impossible. Fans won't be disappointed by the similar all things are possible tone in this book on the need to integrate the principle of honor into every aspect of life, both functionally and spiritually. Bevere's focus on the biblical doctrine of honoring those governing authorities, whether in the civil, church, family, and social arena, is substantiated through scripture. Still, many in non-charismatic evangelical churches will take issue with the author's presumptive stance on ministers' right to receive double honor in the form of material wealth. Recounting the numerous times he has witnessed opulent gifts and preferential treatment bestowed upon him and other Christian servants as outward signs of being honored, Bevere provides an endless litany of hotel accommodations, presents, and the like. This reads as distasteful and greedy when contrasted with the fact that even Christ had nowhere to lay his head. The principle of honor is a worthy one, but Bevere's approach deteriorates too frequently into a what's-in-it-for-me tenor. (Nov. 15)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

TOO LATE, Longtimer60! Turning Point-ites have long been indoctrinated with this principle of honor and double honor for leaders. I heard the teaching in my discipleship group back in the day. It was taught and practiced openly then--and apparently still practiced today. I guess that's why leaders feel OK asking parishoners to sacrifice their last dime (or latte or crown molding for their home--these are actual examples) so that leaders can live in the best homes in town.

Designer Original womens conference speaker Lisa Bevere Men of TP instead of paying your hard earned money on this conference for your wife to go.Take her out to dinner and buy her some flowers.

I was wondering about a fairly new ministry at Turning Point called Market Place Ministry and when I was on the web site for City Church (prosperity church) I noticed they had a ministry called Market Place Ministry. Does anyone know if this is were this ministry came from? It's seems like a big coincidence since Wendell Smith (prosperity teacher) and Casey (the rich man) Treat are both coming to Mike's discipleship in October. At what point did TP start believing in the word of faith prosperity, etc. and who brought it in or have they always believed that? TP people it's time to start asking questions. Buddy

I found out that prosperity city church I want your money where at tp nov.19,20 for special mission class for soma and they only charged $130 dollars per person to attend.one of the speakers was in charge of market place ministry at ,i want your money city church.wow,its more then a coincidence.

Does anybody know if the teacher of market place minisrtry at turning point received his pastor degree from word of faith movement,name it claim it,postive confession,prosperity,RHEMA bible college.I hope I am wrong.Buddy

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buddy
Does anybody know if the teacher of market place minisrtry at turning point received his pastor degree from word of faith movement,name it claim it,postive confession,prosperity,RHEMA bible college.I hope I am wrong.Buddy

Buddy, I'm looking into this. What is his name again?

I had said I was going to make this post some time ago, and it has been on my conscience to follow through on it ever since. So here goes...

First of all, I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but my approach was again to include multiple Scripture passages that give a fuller picture of God's design for leadership in the church, rather than a perspective supported only by a couple of passages that get skewed in their application when the rest are not taken into consideration.

This post is intended for anyone at Turning Point who has read and "bought in" to the Undercover/Master and Commander model of leadership and "followership" that Turning Point practices. It's also for those who don't buy it but who feel they cannot put their finger on why it seems off track.


Installment 3: Things I’ve Learned from My Experience at Turning Point

Lots of people at Turning Point—most, if not all, leadership for sure—have been encouraged, even instructed, to read John Bever’s acclaimed book “Under Cover,” which advocates an authoritarian-type leadership structure within the church. In short, from what I understand, it promotes unquestioning obedience to church authority. (This helps to explain Pastor Mike’s affinity for the movie “Master and Commander,” which depicts life on a British battleship in the 1800s where there must be a chain of command and a heavy hand at times to keep things from becoming chaotic.) This model, however, is not taught anywhere in Scripture as a way for church leaders to relate to their fellow believers in Christ. Don’t believe me? Let’s see what Bevere might have skipped over in his eagerness to advance his personal beliefs, rather than a commitment to accurately reflect of the biblical record.

Concern #3: An Authoritarian Church Model: An ‘Undercover’ Deception?

First of all, authoritarian leadership was NEVER God’s idea. He never wanted Israel to have kings; He wanted to be the Good Shepherd who would rule over His people and grant them a high level of freedom within His clear and well-designed guidelines. He wanted them to follow Him with a willing heart and experience His manifold blessings as He led them in peace and well-being. When they began to press the prophet Samuel for a king, God had Samuel warn the people what would happen when a king began to rule over them: a king would call them and their sons into battle, would tax them, enslave them to benefit his kingdom, etc. Still, the people wanted to be like the other nations; they wanted one of their own to rule over them. With a grieved heart, God gave them what they wanted, telling Samuel, “They haven’t rejected you. They’ve rejected me.”

Later, after the nation began unraveling, splitting into two kingdoms—a northern one (Israel) and a southern one (Judah)—God sent the prophet Jeremiah to warn Judah to repent and turn back to God. (Israel was already far gone into idolatry and pagan practices, following her king into them, and then was overtaken by Assyria and completely scattered in exile.) As God is pointing out the various symptoms of Judah’s spiritual sickness, He says this in Jeremiah 5:30… LISTEN TO THIS, PLEASE:

“An appalling and horrible thing
Has happened in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule on their own authority;
And my people love it so!
But what will you do at the end of it?”

I could stop right there, but I want to present a number of other scriptures from the New (or as Hebrew scholars call it “Christian”) Testament. I will introduce each and then let them speak for themselves.

1. Matthew 23
Here is a warning that Jesus gave to the spiritual leaders of His time. I’ve highlighted the danger zones I believe modern-day authoritarian leaders easily, almost without effort, fall into:

Matthew 23

Pharisaism Exposed

1. Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2. saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses [i.e., the seat of authority];
3. therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things, and do not do them.
4. "And they tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
5. "But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries, and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
6. "And they love the place of honor at banquets, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7. and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called by men, Rabbi [i.e., their title of leadership/authority].

Now take note of what JESUS SAID:

8. "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9. "And do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10. "And do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
11. "But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12. "And whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

2. John 21:14-17
Jesus charged Peter to care for the church as a shepherd tending a flock:

The Love Motivation [Love for Jesus, that is, not for position, power, control, money, fame, etc.]
15. So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My lambs."
16. He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
17. He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.


3. 1 Peter 5:1-4
Peter charges those who are elders to care for the church as for a flock, as he himself had served in obedience to Christ:

Serve God Willingly
1. Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder [Peter does not exalt himself here] and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
2. shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight [to oversee is not the same as to rule] not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
3. nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
4. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Now, if as you read what the Word of God says here, and you get the sense that Mike is overstepping the parameters of his role as a church leader, don’t panic and run to ask your discipler if it’s true or not. Your discipler likely has already given Mike and Cyndi a wrongful place and voice in their lives. Jesus promised to give us His Holy Spirit who would lead us into all truth. God is faithful. Ask Him to help you discern the truth. And don’t be afraid if the truth is different than what you have been taught about Mike’s leadership and authority. God will help you not only discern the truth, but also to walk in it. If you need to confess that you’ve given God’s place of authority in your life over to a man or a woman or a group of leaders, just do that. Confess the idolatry in that, and ask God to give you boldness to follow Him, to trust Him, to listen to Him, and to not be afraid to look into “the perfect law of liberty” (scripture) and embrace what it says, even if you end up standing alone among others who are immersed in the idol worship of a man and his ministry.

Do you want evidence that at Turning Point “they do all their deeds to be noticed by men”? Keep tally marks in the next sermon each time Mike boasts of some ministry (all the “seed sowing” that Turning Point is doing), spiritual discipline he practices (how many hours he worshiped or prayed), act of piousness (pulling buttons off his shirt in worship), how Turning Point is leading the way in unity or “blessing” the city or whatever good deed has been done by him, his wife, the elders, his children, other parishioners, etc. Compare this boasting to Jesus’ attitude. It’s not for the sake of so-called judging or condemning Mike that we need to weigh these things. It’s for the sake of getting back to what is real and right and good and true, readjusting our broken sense of what is according to God’s Word. We do need to discern these things and be willing to change our viewpoint if we’re off track. The Bible admonishes us to be sober and watchful. Christians who are watching have to look at what they see and draw conclusions, not based on their own feelings or the opinions of others, but according to what God has said. What has GOD said? And I don't mean what does Mike say that God has said. Mike is not an apostle, he's a fellow believer. He's not supposed to be grabbing titles anyway according to Matthew 23.

Please stop “amen-ing” absolutely anything the leaders say without reflecting on it (because you might be encouraging and taking part in an arrogant authoritarian mindset). Get back in touch with what is written in the Word of God—not just the snapshots you get in sermons or reading Psalms. Read it all, please! Pay attention as you’re reading, and be willing to change the way you think to bring it in line with God’s Word, as His Spirit reveals truth to you. We'll give an account of this one day, and the excuse that "Mike said..." won't hold up.